Originally posted by Morneblade You guys remember the Verant/Sony venture? Can you say "Everquest"? Remember what happened? Those that do not learn from their mistakes are doomed to repeat them.
This is scaring me...yes I remember Verant and I remember us being taken over by SOE..and things went downhill from there. I have played other SOE games after EQI..and have quit all of them..every single one...in disappointment. I hope SOE does not get the chance to have more of a say than servers and backend...billing etc. Otherwise my hopes will be dashed for Vanguard.
Originally posted by SkarsTZ Not that I want to get in the way of the bridge jumpers I thought I would bring a bit of sanity and rational thought into this discussion.
I'm going to give you guys credit and assume you understand the difference between a publisher and a developer. That would definitely help.
blah blah blah more damage control ... since your repeat your BS in this post ill repeat my answer to you in this post as well
ok well .... thats all BULLCRAP .. and ill prove it .. this are the latest posts from a developer on the VOH forums ... notice how their claims of " TOTAL CONTROL" are diminishing by the posts
Taranis from sigil online entertainment posts:
"We will certainly consult with them ... but Sigil funds all development, and we'll only spend our own resources to develop/deploy things that we think are worth it. Really - we have more control than we did in the previous MS deal."
notice he says CLEARLY " WE WILL SURELY CONSULT WITH THEM" thats CLEAR indication the deal isnt as bening as brad wants you to believe ...
and in fact to ME at least alludes to the fact SOE have invested capitol in the game ... otherwise why would sigil even care to " consult" with the biggest failure of the MMO market
next our friend from SIGIL ONLINE ENTERTAINMENT STATES
Taranis: SIGIL, posts:
Now I can't promise that it'll never change (ie - if SOE decides to buy Sigil at some point down the road, etc) ... but the structure of the deal, as it is today ... ensures Sigil's autonomy. Both corporately - and financially.
can you say " COVERING HIS ASS" knowing all too well the day will come when sony takes over just like they did with EQ1, the plans for EQ2 and taking SWG from lucas arts?
you my friend ... are a naive one to think a corporation as large as sony was brought in cuz M$ didnt want free money publishing the game .... its almost known at this point sig8il came into financial problems ... and couldnt meet deadline MS washed their hands of the matter , because they didnt want to fund the game and SOE came in and picked up the contract
Originally posted by Neurox1 Originally posted by SkarsTZ Not that I want to get in the way of the bridge jumpers I thought I would bring a bit of sanity and rational thought into this discussion.
I'm going to give you guys credit and assume you understand the difference between a publisher and a developer. That would definitely help.
blah blah blah more damage control ... since your repeat your BS in this post ill repeat my answer to you in this post as well
ok well .... thats all BULLCRAP .. and ill prove it .. this are the latest posts from a developer on the VOH forums ... notice how their claims of " TOTAL CONTROL" are diminishing by the posts
Taranis from sigil online entertainment posts:
"We will certainly consult with them ... but Sigil funds all development, and we'll only spend our own resources to develop/deploy things that we think are worth it. Really - we have more control than we did in the previous MS deal."
notice he says CLEARLY " WE WILL SURELY CONSULT WITH THEM" thats CLEAR indication the deal isnt as bening as brad wants you to believe ...
and in fact to ME at least alludes to the fact SOE have invested capitol in the game ... otherwise why would sigil even care to " consult" with the biggest failure of the MMO market
next our friend from SIGIL ONLINE ENTERTAINMENT STATES
Taranis: SIGIL, posts:
Now I can't promise that it'll never change (ie - if SOE decides to buy Sigil at some point down the road, etc) ... but the structure of the deal, as it is today ... ensures Sigil's autonomy. Both corporately - and financially.
can you say " COVERING HIS ASS" knowing all too well the day will come when sony takes over just like they did with EQ1, the plans for EQ2 and taking SWG from lucas arts?
you my friend ... are a naive one to think a corporation as large as sony was brought in cuz M$ didnt want free money publishing the game .... its almost known at this point sig8il came into financial problems ... and couldnt meet deadline MS washed their hands of the matter , because they didnt want to fund the game and SOE came in and picked up the contract
I replied in the other thread.
Funny you say I'm talking BS while you are ranting while frothing at the mouth. Relax a bit, SoE didn't kill your cat.
SkarsTZ, I think everyone understands that SOE will only be the publisher BUT you gotta look at the track record. The best indicator of future performance is past performance. Every project Sony digs into gets messed up.
They got their foot in the door with a game that is a threat to one of their products.
If there is a way for them to screw things up, they have already figured it out and implemented it
Thats how I see it anyway...... call me what you will but all I gotta do is say "go take a look at SWG", The MOST profittable fanchise in the known world.........and look what they did with it.
im not foaming ... im not ranting .. im showing you how naive you are .. and how the stance of rock steady defiance to any prospect of SONY having a hand in development is fading amongst the developers at sigil ...
It doesn't matter what Sigil says now.. They are getting in bed with a company I refuse to do business with, and I really don't care what the exact relationship is.
Regardless of how much control SOE has, or does not have.... It's still a slap in the face to partner with them. SOE is a cancer on the gaming industry. They consistently disregard the opinion of their current subscribers when considering changes to their live games. This leads to unpopular and down right hard to understand decisions on their part. When they realize they have made a game-breaking decision, they are too busy trying to justify their mistakes to correct them. They make a change to a game that none of the players wanted, and it chases away a significant percentage of the subscribers. Rather than fix the problem they throw out a bunch of blatant lies in defense of their original mistake. I think anyone who played SWG understands what a terrible mistake it is to have those morons involved in this game.
If I started showing up at my customer's houses with a pedophile, do you think they would be comforted by the fact that he was just around to do the paper-work? I doubt it... and saying that SOE is just the publisher doesn't make forget the way they bent over the SWG players.
We canceled three SWG accounts at my house a few months ago... I have also stopped buying Sony products whenever possible, and vanguard will not be an exception. I'm sure my $45.00 a month won't break them, but I felt like SWG refugees were a good part of the community waiting for vanguard, and I'm sure that when it's all added up, that will be a pretty significant loss... Of course, their first act as a partner of SOE will be to dismiss that fact in favor of all the new subscribers they feel this decision will generate... for their sake, lets hope it pans out better than the NGE did.
On the bright side... We still have Warhammer and Age of Conan coming from companies I can trust
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it
-- George Santayana
I'm getting a horrible feeling of Deja Vu. One of the main reasons why I finally decided not to play on the EQ 'Progression Server' is because all paths lead to SoL>PoP.
I cannot in good conscience play Vanguard. Every single spider sense is tingling telling me this is all wrong. The level of dismay in reaction to this news tells its own story.
This news has given me the impetus to following the courage of my convictions and try ATITD when the 3rd incarnation is released. I will also follow my convictions, and more importantly, my gut feeling, by steering well clear of a product that SoE has their fingers in.
Time to login to the Official Forum and check out the reaction. I guess it will not be pretty over there.
Regards, Riotgirl
"If you think I'm plucky and scrappy and all I need is love, you're in way over your head. I don't have a heart of gold or get nice. There are a lot nicer people coming up. We call them losers."
There are some big advantages to this happening now. I can stop worrying about the beta; and SOE haters (myself included) can write this game off now and look forward to something else.
I believe this will end up as the biggest marketing blunder in MMO history.
I wonder if SoE does any research into why people hate them so much.
Personally I think Vanguard will be a niche game. We all know that the market goes to games like WoW and Vanguard is far and away not WoW-ish in any way. Chances are that MS wanted Vanguard to fight with WoW for market control and the only way to do so is to change the game is ways that the developers did not want to do. In comes SoE knowing full well that it will be negatively affected by Vanguard and strikes a deal where they remain hands off the development and supply a platform for the game... all for a little cash that will probably cover the subscriptions that they will lose to Vanguard. Warhammer will come along and knock WoW into the dust and once all is said and done EQ2 if maintaining it's happy home in the middle ground.
100% Brilliant!
100% Evil!
100% SoE
The 10,000 Lb. gorilla just coped a squat on all the haters once again.
Well, I read this last night and was so bummed. I am amazed by it, and saddened. Still, I can see these guys (Brad and Smed) are long time freinds and in a crunch (and Vanguard is in one) you can lose your remembrance of past history and fall back where it seems safe.
I wish the Vanguard team well, they're just trying to build their dream. Selling out to the Devil...bad move. Despite the assurances from Brad on the Vanguard boards that they were now going to be in complete control of the game, having Smed pop in almost immediately all pink and smirky looks bad and sends a different message.
I have to write off what seems like a great game because of this alliance. Never trust someone as capable of betrayal as SOE twice.
My fear now, is that Bioware, those little sweeties, are also going to announce a similar deal for SOE distribution of their mmorpg. The rumors and speculation are already there on that one. Lets hope that particular nightmare scenario doesn't play out.
Did any of you tryed to look on that from positive side? To look on all flaming that fly around all boards?
I don't belive there is stupid ppl at Sigil and SOE, i do belive they are reading all forums very carefully and making they desisions.I do belive that all that flaming will go for good and Sigil will give us good game to play.
You was big fans of VG, and now you big haters of VG.You brougth your hate from SOE to game, even w/o playing it, w/o seeing what happens.I can give you 100/1 95% of all those who say they will never give single buch to SOE, never will play VG etc etc etc, will come to VG eventually.
And those who say that VG going to be biggest disaster at MMO history --- i guess you are so wrong.That thing was told about almost every MMO, and WoW was the last one that was promissed crash.Look on where is WoW now.
Anyway, many ppl just angry from one reason or another becose of news, we should let us cool down a bit, and look on it with fresh view.
Originally posted by Mastik There are some big advantages to this happening now. I can stop worrying about the beta; and SOE haters (myself included) can write this game off now and look forward to something else.
I believe this will end up as the biggest marketing blunder in MMO history.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled - Some deluded SWG fanboi who pities me. I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too. 09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
You were suppossed to bring Balance to the MMO industry!!!
The struggle against $OE has just gone to the next level. As much as I'm struck with disappointment and grief, I find my resolve strengthening . That's the way you wanna play this? Fine, another potential subscriber vanishes.
"7. Things likerunning game servers, getting ads (that we design and/or approve) into magazines, getting boxes into stores, etc., all of which SOE is great at doing, they can do while we focus on finishing up the game and on beta."
Sigil = Crazy
Think Verant Interactive (EQ1). I feel sorry for the suckers who end up buying VSoH.
SOE is having no say on any part of the gameplay though, i read it straight from there website the only thing SOE is doing is helping put the game on the shelf with material costs etc, Sigil Games will have all say over the game itself not SOE......
So they say now! SOE has a habit of having a hands off aproach at first, then digging it's claws into it later.Slowly but surely SOE will have a say so in every aspect of the game I bet my life on it.
Originally posted by djnexus SOE is having no say on any part of the gameplay though, i read it straight from there website the only thing SOE is doing is helping put the game on the shelf with material costs etc, Sigil Games will have all say over the game itself not SOE......
Yes, of course. And later this month the earth will enter its 3000 year period of bliss and prosperity.
So I've been reading various forums on this and the questions why and why now keep popping up. So as with all things sneaky and SOE, Brad says it has been in the works awhile.
Announcing it right before a weekend is a typical move from SOE for big announcements. They always liked to make them late Friday afternoon then watch the boards light up. Since one of the things SOE is being touted for in this move is PR, well, there we begin. Negative PR is as good and in the SOE rulebook, better than positive. The timing the weekend before E3 takes advantage of E3 hype and jumps the gun on it, as it were. Also, any other big announcements for next week won't be overshadowed by this one, so all is tidy.
From Sigil's point of view, Brad seems like an honest guy so I will believe what he has to say about why he thinks the move is a good one.
For SOE's, well, it is a great move because for all the speculation of where Vanguards player base might come from (everyone assuming and hoping WOW), my observation from reading Vanguards boards is that there are a huge number of EQ1 and II players waiting to play Vanguard. These being the core of Sony's business, having huge numbers of players from those games leaving would be devastating. Can't let that happen. Time to pull out the old ties of friendship and make some offers. Having Vanguard in the Station Pass game pool smooshes the competition and enhances SOE's overall numbers.
The WOW players and players from other games who will go try Vanguard anyway are the gypsies who float to the next great game. There is just a FOTM lure for them, they won't stay but will prop up initial numbers. The huge number of people who will not play at all now because of SOE involvement, well, that has already been explained away by Brad himself saying this will sort of be a niche game with appeal to players who like a challenge. He gets to build the game he wants (but does el diablo let him keep it the way he wants it to be?). Fascinating to watch from a safe distance.
Comments
This is scaring me...yes I remember Verant and I remember us being taken over by SOE..and things went downhill from there. I have played other SOE games after EQI..and have quit all of them..every single one...in disappointment. I hope SOE does not get the chance to have more of a say than servers and backend...billing etc. Otherwise my hopes will be dashed for Vanguard.
I hope Brad and Crew know what they're doing.
Cend
blah blah blah more damage control ... since your repeat your BS in this post ill repeat my answer to you in this post as well
ok well .... thats all BULLCRAP .. and ill prove it .. this are the latest posts from a developer on the VOH forums ... notice how their claims of " TOTAL CONTROL" are diminishing by the posts
Taranis from sigil online entertainment posts:
"We will certainly consult with them ... but Sigil funds all development, and we'll only spend our own resources to develop/deploy things that we think are worth it. Really - we have more control than we did in the previous MS deal."
notice he says CLEARLY " WE WILL SURELY CONSULT WITH THEM" thats CLEAR indication the deal isnt as bening as brad wants you to believe ...
and in fact to ME at least alludes to the fact SOE have invested capitol in the game ... otherwise why would sigil even care to " consult" with the biggest failure of the MMO market
next our friend from SIGIL ONLINE ENTERTAINMENT STATES
Taranis: SIGIL, posts:
Now I can't promise that it'll never change (ie - if SOE decides to buy Sigil at some point down the road, etc) ... but the structure of the deal, as it is today ... ensures Sigil's autonomy. Both corporately - and financially.
can you say " COVERING HIS ASS" knowing all too well the day will come when sony takes over just like they did with EQ1, the plans for EQ2 and taking SWG from lucas arts?
you my friend ... are a naive one to think a corporation as large as sony was brought in cuz M$ didnt want free money publishing the game .... its almost known at this point sig8il came into financial problems ... and couldnt meet deadline MS washed their hands of the matter , because they didnt want to fund the game and SOE came in and picked up the contract
blah blah blah more damage control ... since your repeat your BS in this post ill repeat my answer to you in this post as well
ok well .... thats all BULLCRAP .. and ill prove it .. this are the latest posts from a developer on the VOH forums ... notice how their claims of " TOTAL CONTROL" are diminishing by the posts
Taranis from sigil online entertainment posts:
"We will certainly consult with them ... but Sigil funds all development, and we'll only spend our own resources to develop/deploy things that we think are worth it. Really - we have more control than we did in the previous MS deal."
notice he says CLEARLY " WE WILL SURELY CONSULT WITH THEM" thats CLEAR indication the deal isnt as bening as brad wants you to believe ...
and in fact to ME at least alludes to the fact SOE have invested capitol in the game ... otherwise why would sigil even care to " consult" with the biggest failure of the MMO market
next our friend from SIGIL ONLINE ENTERTAINMENT STATES
Taranis: SIGIL, posts:
Now I can't promise that it'll never change (ie - if SOE decides to buy Sigil at some point down the road, etc) ... but the structure of the deal, as it is today ... ensures Sigil's autonomy. Both corporately - and financially.
can you say " COVERING HIS ASS" knowing all too well the day will come when sony takes over just like they did with EQ1, the plans for EQ2 and taking SWG from lucas arts?
you my friend ... are a naive one to think a corporation as large as sony was brought in cuz M$ didnt want free money publishing the game .... its almost known at this point sig8il came into financial problems ... and couldnt meet deadline MS washed their hands of the matter , because they didnt want to fund the game and SOE came in and picked up the contract
I replied in the other thread.
Funny you say I'm talking BS while you are ranting while frothing at the mouth. Relax a bit, SoE didn't kill your cat.
SkarsTZ, I think everyone understands that SOE will only be the publisher BUT you gotta look at the track record. The best indicator of future performance is past performance. Every project Sony digs into gets messed up.
They got their foot in the door with a game that is a threat to one of their products.
If there is a way for them to screw things up, they have already figured it out and implemented it
Thats how I see it anyway...... call me what you will but all I gotta do is say "go take a look at SWG", The MOST profittable fanchise in the known world.........and look what they did with it.
im not foaming ... im not ranting .. im showing you how naive you are .. and how the stance of rock steady defiance to any prospect of SONY having a hand in development is fading amongst the developers at sigil ...
I don't remember Sigil ever saying they would never be affilated with Sony.
It's not like Microsoft isn't just as bad
It doesn't matter what Sigil says now.. They are getting in bed with a company I refuse to do business with, and I really don't care what the exact relationship is.
Regardless of how much control SOE has, or does not have.... It's still a slap in the face to partner with them. SOE is a cancer on the gaming industry. They consistently disregard the opinion of their current subscribers when considering changes to their live games. This leads to unpopular and down right hard to understand decisions on their part. When they realize they have made a game-breaking decision, they are too busy trying to justify their mistakes to correct them. They make a change to a game that none of the players wanted, and it chases away a significant percentage of the subscribers. Rather than fix the problem they throw out a bunch of blatant lies in defense of their original mistake. I think anyone who played SWG understands what a terrible mistake it is to have those morons involved in this game.
If I started showing up at my customer's houses with a pedophile, do you think they would be comforted by the fact that he was just around to do the paper-work? I doubt it... and saying that SOE is just the publisher doesn't make forget the way they bent over the SWG players.
We canceled three SWG accounts at my house a few months ago... I have also stopped buying Sony products whenever possible, and vanguard will not be an exception. I'm sure my $45.00 a month won't break them, but I felt like SWG refugees were a good part of the community waiting for vanguard, and I'm sure that when it's all added up, that will be a pretty significant loss... Of course, their first act as a partner of SOE will be to dismiss that fact in favor of all the new subscribers they feel this decision will generate... for their sake, lets hope it pans out better than the NGE did.
On the bright side... We still have Warhammer and Age of Conan coming from companies I can trust
-----Zero Punctuation Eve Online Review-----
-- George Santayana
I'm getting a horrible feeling of Deja Vu. One of the main reasons why I finally decided not to play on the EQ 'Progression Server' is because all paths lead to SoL>PoP.
I cannot in good conscience play Vanguard. Every single spider sense is tingling telling me this is all wrong. The level of dismay in reaction to this news tells its own story.
This news has given me the impetus to following the courage of my convictions and try ATITD when the 3rd incarnation is released. I will also follow my convictions, and more importantly, my gut feeling, by steering well clear of a product that SoE has their fingers in.
Time to login to the Official Forum and check out the reaction. I guess it will not be pretty over there.
Regards,
Riotgirl
"If you think I'm plucky and scrappy and all I need is love, you're in way over your head. I don't have a heart of gold or get nice. There are a lot nicer people coming up. We call them losers."
There are some big advantages to this happening now. I can stop worrying about the beta; and SOE haters (myself included) can write this game off now and look forward to something else.
I believe this will end up as the biggest marketing blunder in MMO history.
I wonder if SoE does any research into why people hate them so much.
Personally I think Vanguard will be a niche game. We all know that the market goes to games like WoW and Vanguard is far and away not WoW-ish in any way. Chances are that MS wanted Vanguard to fight with WoW for market control and the only way to do so is to change the game is ways that the developers did not want to do. In comes SoE knowing full well that it will be negatively affected by Vanguard and strikes a deal where they remain hands off the development and supply a platform for the game... all for a little cash that will probably cover the subscriptions that they will lose to Vanguard. Warhammer will come along and knock WoW into the dust and once all is said and done EQ2 if maintaining it's happy home in the middle ground.
100% Brilliant!
100% Evil!
100% SoE
The 10,000 Lb. gorilla just coped a squat on all the haters once again.
<div><span style="width:120px; height:120px;float:left;overflow: hidden;"><a href="http://www.zowned.com/Opef"><img src="http://www.zowned.com/file/pic/user/Opef_120.jpg"; style="border: 0pt none ; margin: 10px 10px 10px 10px; width: 120px; height: 120px;"></a></span></div>
Please... just shoot me now and get it over with.
Well, I read this last night and was so bummed. I am amazed by it, and saddened. Still, I can see these guys (Brad and Smed) are long time freinds and in a crunch (and Vanguard is in one) you can lose your remembrance of past history and fall back where it seems safe.
I wish the Vanguard team well, they're just trying to build their dream. Selling out to the Devil...bad move. Despite the assurances from Brad on the Vanguard boards that they were now going to be in complete control of the game, having Smed pop in almost immediately all pink and smirky looks bad and sends a different message.
I have to write off what seems like a great game because of this alliance. Never trust someone as capable of betrayal as SOE twice.
My fear now, is that Bioware, those little sweeties, are also going to announce a similar deal for SOE distribution of their mmorpg. The rumors and speculation are already there on that one. Lets hope that particular nightmare scenario doesn't play out.
All ur Mountain Dew is belong to me.
Did any of you tryed to look on that from positive side? To look on all flaming that fly around all boards?
I don't belive there is stupid ppl at Sigil and SOE, i do belive they are reading all forums very carefully and making they desisions.I do belive that all that flaming will go for good and Sigil will give us good game to play.
You was big fans of VG, and now you big haters of VG.You brougth your hate from SOE to game, even w/o playing it, w/o seeing what happens.I can give you 100/1 95% of all those who say they will never give single buch to SOE, never will play VG etc etc etc, will come to VG eventually.
And those who say that VG going to be biggest disaster at MMO history --- i guess you are so wrong.That thing was told about almost every MMO, and WoW was the last one that was promissed crash.Look on where is WoW now.
Anyway, many ppl just angry from one reason or another becose of news, we should let us cool down a bit, and look on it with fresh view.
Water cooled Intel Corei7 920 D0 Stepping OC'd 4.3GHz - 6GB Corsair Dominator GT RAM 2000Mhz - ASUS RAGE II EXTREME X58 Mobo - 2x HD 5870 in Crossfire X, OC'd 0.9Ghz core 1.3Ghz RAM - Dell 2407WFP Flat Panel LCD 24" 1920x1200
Dead to me.
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
NO!!!
You were the Promised One!!!!
You were suppossed to bring Balance to the MMO industry!!!
The struggle against $OE has just gone to the next level. As much as I'm struck with disappointment and grief, I find my resolve strengthening
. That's the way you wanna play this? Fine, another potential subscriber vanishes.
"7. Things like running game servers, getting ads (that we design and/or approve) into magazines, getting boxes into stores, etc., all of which SOE is great at doing, they can do while we focus on finishing up the game and on beta."
Think Verant Interactive (EQ1). I feel sorry for the suckers who end up buying VSoH.
"I know I said this was my last post, but you my friend are a idiotic moron." -Shadow4482
straight from there website the only thing SOE is doing is helping put
the game on the shelf with material costs etc, Sigil Games will have
all say over the game itself not SOE......
I think Sigil will make a great game, either Microsoft or SOE is the publisher.
And only the release will show if Vanguard is a great game.
SOE has a habit of having a hands off aproach at first, then digging it's claws into it later.Slowly but surely SOE will have a say so in every aspect of the game I bet my life on it.
So I've been reading various forums on this and the questions why and why now keep popping up. So as with all things sneaky and SOE, Brad says it has been in the works awhile.
Announcing it right before a weekend is a typical move from SOE for big announcements. They always liked to make them late Friday afternoon then watch the boards light up. Since one of the things SOE is being touted for in this move is PR, well, there we begin. Negative PR is as good and in the SOE rulebook, better than positive. The timing the weekend before E3 takes advantage of E3 hype and jumps the gun on it, as it were. Also, any other big announcements for next week won't be overshadowed by this one, so all is tidy.
From Sigil's point of view, Brad seems like an honest guy so I will believe what he has to say about why he thinks the move is a good one.
For SOE's, well, it is a great move because for all the speculation of where Vanguards player base might come from (everyone assuming and hoping WOW), my observation from reading Vanguards boards is that there are a huge number of EQ1 and II players waiting to play Vanguard. These being the core of Sony's business, having huge numbers of players from those games leaving would be devastating. Can't let that happen. Time to pull out the old ties of friendship and make some offers. Having Vanguard in the Station Pass game pool smooshes the competition and enhances SOE's overall numbers.
The WOW players and players from other games who will go try Vanguard anyway are the gypsies who float to the next great game. There is just a FOTM lure for them, they won't stay but will prop up initial numbers. The huge number of people who will not play at all now because of SOE involvement, well, that has already been explained away by Brad himself saying this will sort of be a niche game with appeal to players who like a challenge. He gets to build the game he wants (but does el diablo let him keep it the way he wants it to be?). Fascinating to watch from a safe distance.