Vanguard or Hero's Journey?

EliasThorne · February 2006

Hi all,

I'm deliberately cross posting this here and in the Hero's Journey forum to get a good idea of the pro's and con's of each game and I can think of no better (or maybe quicker!) way to get to the heart of each game than to put the question to you guys in these forums.

I know there are fan boi's in each forums and this should if all goes well be very informative, if it doesn't go well then I apologise for baiting trolls ::::36::

I would love to have had reason to post in more forums, but there really doesn't seem to be much out there in the short to mid term!

Thank you all,

Elias...

angerr · February 2006

i will be honest and say i have limited knowledge of HJ, i have tried to read about it a while back and their official FAQ didn't offer much at the time so it didn't really interest me.

I'm actually glad you posted this, when i get time later i will read more about it and report back on my opinion, as of now i cant really say either way. ::::33::

MMO_Munk · February 2006

Originally posted by EliasThorne
Hi all,I'm deliberately cross posting this here and in the Hero's Journey forum to get a good idea of the pro's and con's of each game and I can think of no better (or maybe quicker!) way to get to the heart of each game than to put the question to you guys in these forums.I know there are fan boi's in each forums and this should if all goes well be very informative, if it doesn't go well then I apologise for baiting trolls I would love to have had reason to post in more forums, but there really doesn't seem to be much out there in the short to mid term!Thank you all,Elias...

*Gets Baited from his regular trolling schedule*

Well, BOTH games have great concepts and BOTH have a great dev team in my opinion. The only major difference i can think of off the top of my head is, Vanguard will be more advertised, seeing as it is a Microsoft backed MMO. I also have more faith in the Vanguard Dev team to provide me with a game I know I will like. Its just so hard to say, cause both games have GREAT Potential, i was just sold on Vanguards amount of races, classes, and depth of detail the Dev team is going into. IGN says their is the most character customization in Vanguard than they had ever seen in any other MMO to date. I follow Vanguard Very Closesly and only OverLooked Heros Journey for a few weeks.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I mean Vanguard just has things in it HEroes Journey cant offer me, such as:

1. Great Remade non bottable Crafting System.
2. Diplomacy between PLAYER OWNED Cities.
3. Ability to Purchase a Home, Store, Dock, Cart, Horse Ect.
4. OverSeas Travel and Adventure on the High seas.
5. Vast world, one of the largest square miles in game to date.
6. The Game is ment to be HARD, non newbiefied is what Really SOLD me on this.
7. GREAT Community, I've noticed so far, the Vanguard community reminds me of old school EverQuest 1, Everyone is Very helpful. Lots of sites help adverstise this game while its in developement, such as www.silkyvenom.com
8. A Diverse game filled from Mountain ranges, to rolling fields of green, to desert sands, to high seas adventure.
9. Ability to become a pirate on the High Seas, Ransoming other people boats, for your greed =p.
10. Become a Diplomat for your Player owned City.
11. Ability to form Caravans while moving from city to city, YES THE GAME IS THAT BIG.
12. The need for a strong relation to the community, Nearly forced grouping with very little solo content makes this a player friendly game, makes you feel like your actually in the game, and not playing, a console in the dark no windowed room alone. Encouraged player interaction.
13. The Graphics, Although not TOP NOTCH still very nice to look at, I just hope their is more armor diversity, in not just shapes, but color also. But I have hopes Vanguards Dev team will implement this far before Heroes Journey.
14. This is a MORE experianced Dev Team, they created the POWERHOUSE OF MMO'S Everquest 1. They know what works and what doesnt now.
15. Enhanced fighting (combat) system.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CRAFTING RESOURCES
Most items are only combinable with similar resources. Each raw resource you harvest has two classifications: Tier and Type.

TIERS
Edited
Edited
Edited
Edited
Edited

TYPES
Edited
Edited
Edited
Edited
Edited

Both must match up to assemble an item, and only the appropriate Tier can be used in the matching Tier recipe. All this information is available by examining the ore itself.

See this is why I like these Dev's as an Example right here, This is to STOP BOTTERS, (Cheaters) from just being afk running around everywhere harvesting, like in EverQuest 2, World of Warcraft and various other games.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Still not sold huh? DIPLOMACY

NPCs have a certain amount of text they can tell you. It can be different types of information like general information about the lore of a certain place, or it can be a special quest that they have for you. If you win a parley session without raising this bar to the max you know there is some information the NPC isn't telling you. There might be "hidden" information on the NPC.

Things like THIS Set this game to a higher mark for me and other gamers ALIKE.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thats about all I can tell you about this game. Theres ALOT TO IT, more than just a few simple forum posts can tell you. Good luck to you sir, I Hope you choose wisely.

VANGUARD FOR THE WIN[/size] FOLLOW THIS LINK

[strike]value[/strike][strike]I PICKED A NEW AVATAR TODAY! LET THIS BE A BIG AMERICAN PARTY TIME![/strike]

angerr · February 2006

well i went and read their official FAQ again and it is no different than what i read before, very limited information about the game.

there are many great info sites for vanguard like http://silkyvenom.com/

if there are any other sites that have better more in depth information about HJ feel free to post them here and i will have a look. but just going by their FAQ alone is just not enough, and is not a good sign in my book.

i also tried to browse their forums and no real information i could find there either, i will say the ss's are real nice.....but until someone offers better information vanguard wins in my book.

p.s it also helps that vanguard is obviously farther(lol is farther even a word?) along in development, HJ is still in alpha from what i did read in their forums. ::::40::

Faemus · February 2006

One thing in HJ's favor (at least on MMORPG.com) is an extrememly active GM presence on their Forum here. They seem very friendly and eager to answer questions, at least to the extent that they can give specific answers in a development phase.

zeedaam · February 2006

I don't have any info to base this on, but this is my feeling on it. I'm actually leaning towards Vanguard myself, but I'm afraid that the game will have so many things unavailable to me without tons of hard work. I'm not a big powergamer, but I would like to own a home and a horse. Similarly to EQ2 I could never work my way up to having those things.

Also, I agree that Vanguard would probably be promoted more because of MS backing. I would just hate if they tried to sell an expansion pack every month just so you would be able to continue progressing thru the game. It just seems more likely that a big-time corporate developer would do this. Or maybe SOE is just giving big game corps a bad name.

The HJ crew on the other hand seems like a laid-back developer like Cryptic of CoH/CoV. Their games could use some more depth but the developers seem so much more approachable and agreeable.

I'll most likely play both though, as usual.

EliasThorne · February 2006

Hi,

Some nice info there, most very promising, some a little worrying like being forced to group (I usually game with another two real life friends and there are times when we just want to get on with it).
I like the sound of diplomacy, gives an extra dimension.

I'm a little nervous about the EQ1 side of things, much of what I've heard hasn't been that good, or at least a little too harsh for my tastes although that may have just been the hardcore servers. However not having played it and only picking things up on forums where people tend to complain rather than compliment may be jaded (ironic really that I'm asking this here ::::02:: ).

Hero's journey wise here (http://www.kmtdesigns.com/hjfaq/index.php) is a good source of info, not as nice to go through as silkyvemon's but the info's in there, also the forums here have a lot of news and the GMs are on daily, sometimes even the developers themselves - I grant you the alpha stage is worrying too if they are going to meet their release target.

angerr · February 2006

Originally posted by zeedaam
I don't have any info to base this on, but this is my feeling on it. I'm actually leaning towards Vanguard myself, but I'm afraid that the game will have so many things unavailable to me without tons of hard work. I'm not a big powergamer, but I would like to own a home and a horse. Similarly to EQ2 I could never work my way up to having those things.
Also, I agree that Vanguard would probably be promoted more because of MS backing. I would just hate if they tried to sell an expansion pack every month just so you would be able to continue progressing thru the game. It just seems more likely that a big-time corporate developer would do this. Or maybe SOE is just giving big game corps a bad name.
The HJ crew on the other hand seems like a laid-back developer like Cryptic of CoH/CoV. Their games could use some more depth but the developers seem so much more approachable and agreeable.
I'll most likely play both though, as usual.

well I'm not saying just soe does this but blizzard is a pretty big corporation and wow is yet to release a expansion (even though one is in development).

EliasThorne · February 2006

Just following up, Microsoft used to publish the Asheron's Call series of games (not well by the way as they put unwanted pressure and I still belive caused a number of the issues with AC2), but they didnt relaese many expansions either...

I'm enjoying what I'm reading thus far and I still don't know which way to jump but I've now got my gaming group looking over this too so with any luck we'll have an idea in the near(ish) future.

Now, I just spotten the below excert from an review over at GameSpot which cuaght my eye:

While standard abilities like attacking and kicking are displayed as icons in a bank of hotkey shortcuts, special abilities such as parry and rescue appear in a series of "reaction" icons, which appear just above your hotkeys. These special-icon areas will light up only when an appropriate opportunity arises, and being knowledgeable enough and fast enough to capitalize on these opportunities will separate good players from great ones. McQuaid describes the game's real-time attack-and-counter combat system as "sort of a real-time version of Magic: The Gathering." For example, heavy fighters can use positional attacks to open up opportunities for ranger characters to deliver flanking attacks; highly perceptive characters will be able to detect invisible monsters sneaking around; and sorcerers will have a chance to recognize incoming magic spells and cast counterspells in reaction. Throughout battle (as well as throughout your adventures, both aboveground and in dungeons), you'll be treated to the game's dynamic soundtrack, which will change depending on where you are, whether you're in battle or not, and how a battle is going. Our combat experience pitted us against lowly country fauna such as snakes and badgers, as well as against kobolds and mighty undead armies that completely slaughtered us.

Abraxos · February 2006

Originally posted by Faemus

One thing in HJ's favor (at least on MMORPG.com) is an extrememly active GM presence on their Forum here. They seem very friendly and eager to answer questions, at least to the extent that they can give specific answers in a development phase.

The entire Vanguard staff post quite regularly to their forums and their affiliate sites as well. McQuaid has personally answered questions on an almost daily basis which is amazing when compared to SOE or Blizzard for instance.

EliasThorne · February 2006

Not much beating SOE or Blizzard ::::18::

What the the other sites you mention?

xDivianaDRx · February 2006

To Angerr, try checking this out: http://www.kmtdesigns.com/hjfaq/ and also MMORPG has pretty much all of the info on HJ, the links should be on the HJ website. IGN has quite a few too.

Originally posted by MMO_Munk

*Gets Baited from his regular trolling schedule*

Well, BOTH games have great concepts and BOTH have a great dev team in my opinion. The only major difference i can think of off the top of my head is, Vanguard will be more advertised, seeing as it is a Microsoft backed MMO. I also have more faith in the Vanguard Dev team to provide me with a game I know I will like. Its just so hard to say, cause both games have GREAT Potential, i was just sold on Vanguards amount of races, classes, and depth of detail the Dev team is going into. IGN says their is the most character customization in Vanguard than they had ever seen in any other MMO to date. I follow Vanguard Very Closesly and only OverLooked Heros Journey for a few weeks.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I mean Vanguard just has things in it HEroes Journey cant offer me, such as:

1. Great Remade non bottable Crafting System.
2. Diplomacy between PLAYER OWNED Cities.
3. Ability to Purchase a Home, Store, Dock, Cart, Horse Ect.
4. OverSeas Travel and Adventure on the High seas.
5. Vast world, one of the largest square miles in game to date.
6. The Game is ment to be HARD, non newbiefied is what Really SOLD me on this.
7. GREAT Community, I've noticed so far, the Vanguard community reminds me of old school EverQuest 1, Everyone is Very helpful. Lots of sites help adverstise this game while its in developement, such as www.silkyvenom.com
8. A Diverse game filled from Mountain ranges, to rolling fields of green, to desert sands, to high seas adventure.
9. Ability to become a pirate on the High Seas, Ransoming other people boats, for your greed =p.
10. Become a Diplomat for your Player owned City.
11. Ability to form Caravans while moving from city to city, YES THE GAME IS THAT BIG.
12. The need for a strong relation to the community, Nearly forced grouping with very little solo content makes this a player friendly game, makes you feel like your actually in the game, and not playing, a console in the dark no windowed room alone. Encouraged player interaction.
13. The Graphics, Although not TOP NOTCH still very nice to look at, I just hope their is more armor diversity, in not just shapes, but color also. But I have hopes Vanguards Dev team will implement this far before Heroes Journey.
14. This is a MORE experianced Dev Team, they created the POWERHOUSE OF MMO'S Everquest 1. They know what works and what doesnt now.
15. Enhanced fighting (combat) system.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CRAFTING RESOURCES
Most items are only combinable with similar resources. Each raw resource you harvest has two classifications: Tier and Type.

TIERS
Edited
Edited
Edited
Edited
Edited

TYPES
Edited
Edited
Edited
Edited
Edited

Both must match up to assemble an item, and only the appropriate Tier can be used in the matching Tier recipe. All this information is available by examining the ore itself.

See this is why I like these Dev's as an Example right here, This is to STOP BOTTERS, (Cheaters) from just being afk running around everywhere harvesting, like in EverQuest 2, World of Warcraft and various other games.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Still not sold huh? DIPLOMACY

NPCs have a certain amount of text they can tell you. It can be different types of information like general information about the lore of a certain place, or it can be a special quest that they have for you. If you win a parley session without raising this bar to the max you know there is some information the NPC isn't telling you. There might be "hidden" information on the NPC.

Things like THIS Set this game to a higher mark for me and other gamers ALIKE.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thats about all I can tell you about this game. Theres ALOT TO IT, more than just a few simple forum posts can tell you. Good luck to you sir, I Hope you choose wisely.

VANGUARD FOR THE WIN[/size] FOLLOW THIS LINK

[strike]value[/strike][strike]I PICKED A NEW AVATAR TODAY! LET THIS BE A BIG AMERICAN PARTY TIME![/strike]

Hero's Journey can offer you a lot of those things you think it can't.

1. Crafting system - I don't know much about this at the moment. I don't know if or what it will be.
2. Diplomacy- I don't know about owning cities, but there will be factions and such, and that will make an impact on the HISTORY of the game, meaning there will be new players in years possibly hearing about -you-.
3. Owning homes, stores, etc.- I DO know players will have homes (and possibly be able to bring others in) and there will be multiple types of mounts. I don't know about stores and that kind of stuff.
4. Oversea travel- There are two types of ships in the game, they're not floating on land!
5. Vast world- The world of HJ will be updated on a daily basis, providing new content continually by the "Army of GMs" I can't say this is larger than any game, but it will definitely be fun.
6. Hard/Easy- I don't know what the difficulty is, but I'm pretty sure if you want to go do difficult things, you can. (Let me tell you, I'm gonna be soloing)
7. Community- Again, I don't know (anything!) but if HJ is anything like Simu's other games, it will be immersive, good RP, and an awesome community. There will be conflicts, and friendships, festivals (which happen to be incredibly fun!) and other community based things.
8. Diversity- What screenshots haven't you been looking at! HJ has all kinds of different places, ranging from deserts, to high caverns with lava, to pretty forest areas, to dark dungeons, and spooky graveyards.
9. Pirating- This is something I don't know about for sure, I don't know if there will be ownership of boats, although you can definitely look like, and roleplay a pirate if you want to.
10. Become a diplomat- Your faction can rule over the Triumvirate, which governs the three factions. If your faction is in control, you and all of your faction members get benefits. I'm not sure but I think there's deeper player control than that.
11. Caravans- There are the Wanderers, who of course, wander. One thing you might want to consider is: Will it be THAT fun to have to cross large amounts of land? There's a huge debate on the HJ forums about instant travel, and I disagree with it being instant, but I don't think it should take too long either.
12. Relationship with community- Simu is ALL about roleplay, and although they're not gonna force anyone, it will be VERY encouraged. (Don't forget the GM interaction, we're not just there to BUILD, we're gonna be in the background doing cool things, changing stuff around you while you play, and bringing you cool events like town invasions) Besides that there will be services that players will need from other players. Like getting their boxes opened by rogues, or perhaps getting their armor upgraded by someone who knows how.
13. Graphics- The screenshots for HJ don't compare to the real thing. At all.. I have a lower end graphics card at the moment, (upgrading very soon) and the game looks GORGEOUS to me. But you can't really choose a game just on looks. You could play the prettiest game ever, and it could still suck.
14. More experienced team- I don't think you can say they are more experienced, some of the GMs currently working on HJ have been working for Simu for YEARS. (I'm guessing anywhere from 5-10) and Simu is VERY experienced in the game industry. They've been making MMOs for 20 YEARS. Text based, yes, but different? Not so much, just add graphics. There's still a lot of coding to do. Oh and did I mention how easy and fun the world building tools are?
15. Enhanced fighting- I am assuming you haven't watched the HJ E3 video. The combat is SO interactive! Think solo if you want, or group if you like that. Spell casters will not only cast spells, but choose where it is cast and how to cast it. (think size or shape) also there are combos for those who like groups. The E3 video shows the character jumping off the party members back to be able to hit the creature in the head!

Just to make sure you understand, I don't know some things because I just get my information from the MMORPG news. And let me tell you, Brodbane's faq has WAAAAAAAAY more information than even I do. (I've read everything, just can't remember it all. Too much info)

Now let me go into some of the things I personally like about HJ.

The quest system is way more fun than just leveling. Sure you can sit around hunting all day, but come on! Wouldn't you rather do quests? Each character you make will have a completely different story than any other. They'll all have different quests. And you won't have to always be looking for the quests, sometimes they'll come find you. Also the skill system looks particularly interesting to me. From what I understand you gain Hero Points and you can distribute those into your different skills.. (Which are determined by class, and of course you get a main class and a sub class..) Oh and no changing them once you pick em!
Individuality. We all want that. Well in HJ you can pick your face, your hair color and style, (in detail, think nose, eye color, etc.), then pick your clothes, the color of your clothes, and any accessories or designs on the clothes and the colors for those. That means that nobody will ever look exactly alike. Unless it's on purpose.
Armor strength isn't BASED on the way the clothes look. Sure it sounds more unreal, but this is a fantasy game. Anyway, don't you wanna be a pirate?
PVP! I love good pvp. You can set a flag so you can't be attacked, or if you wanna spar with buddies, you can put it to standard. And if you leave it on standard and someone comes and kills you, well their status is set to Overt.. Then they'll be the ones watching their back.

Also think of the possibility that there will be single -one time only, completed by one group only- kind of quests, that will change Elanthia permanently, the names of whoever completed that quest will go down in history and every other gamer will hear of them. What a way to be a hero.
One last thing, Simu has a LOT of experience with game economy, and they will most likely have the most stable economy out of any other mmorpg out there.

That's just cracking the ice. Go read the stuff about it here, or check out the faq. They're both really good sources of information.

EliasThorne · February 2006

Lol, I was going to read that before I left for home (yes skiving at work!!!), but theres alot of info there, definatly a home read

MMO_Munk · February 2006

::::04::

LoL nice, very valid reasons, its a good comparison between the two. All in all they will both be great games, Vanguards toughness just appeals to me. Its not uncommon for me ot game anywhere from 40-60 hours a week at stress times, or as i like to call it. Stalins Power Hour, Which is actually a full 24day of non stop grinding.... lol... Vanguard still FTW. =p

EliasThorne · February 2006

Wonderful info there xDivianaDRx and I know what you mean, I've read all sorts of faq's, unfortunatly I get them all mixed up!! Mind you the game I have in my head is great - shame it doesn't exist ;-)

It seems to me both of these are looking to be very good and interestingly positioned to a very differenet end of the MMO spectrum, both of which have been ignored in recent games - the RPG'r and the hardcore MMO gamer.

Great to see these groups at last being catered for, now all I have to do is decide which style I fit!!

angerr · February 2006

nice read xDivianaDRx ::::28::

i will admit some of that sounds very exiting, i will need to read alot more of it later but it does sound like it has some potential.

i basically agree with EliasThorne, i think i need to chose witch game fits my playstyle the best. that is a obvious choice, but I'm always trying different stuff anyways. I'm sure once i read more (i added that HJ link to my favorites BTW ::::02:: ) and it gets closer to launch i will know what to think about HJ.

but right now i am just to stoked about vanguard hehe ::::40::

Varcan · February 2006

HJ is really about the only game Vanguard fans don't openly condemn. We agree it definitely has potential, but is also currently a good bit behind Vanguard in their development stages. At this point, Im extremely confident that Vanguard will offer everything Im looking for, while HJ is a little more up in the air, though promising. My biggest current concerns for HJ, again partly due to lack of info., is will its crafting and player economy have any depth to it. The options in Vanguards player economy seems limitless at this point: in-depth crafting, crafting wagons, crafting houses, crafting cities, crafting of ships, even crafting of armor for your horses(for gods sakes

). All in all, HJ is just a game for me to fall back on if by some horendous

event Vanguard doesn't deliver the goods. But, at this point, a few people have gotten the chance to play the game, and from their comments, its a pretty safe bet that it will GREAT.

dunadurium · February 2006

Ok i have read that whole faq posted and a few of the Q&A on this site regarding HJ. Vanguard i have been following since the forming of Sigil was announced. The two games are not completely fair to compare at this point however because HJ has just a fraction of the information that Vanguard currently has made available.

Overall there seems to be a surprising amount of features that are similar in both games. The main differences i see is that HJ will have a much more structured storyline and quests for each player that will be unique in the way they use instances in creative ways (hopefully not at all in the way WOW used them), and yes the game seems to want to encourage RPing which is a great ideal. Vanguard on the other hand is sort of going the other way in providing the player with a much more free experience, so while the lore and backstory of the world is all still very well worked out (and in fact still provides opportunity for some great RPing), the storyline for each player is non-linear and open. I guess the way to elaborate is that Vanguard is shooting for a variety of ways that players can play the game, whereas HJ sort of has a story set out for you to follow along on (but yes, they aim for each story to be different).

I would like to edit into your post a bit though if thats ok, i will admit though right now that i know a lot more about Vanguard and so i guess i will naturally be biased in that direction:

Originally posted by xDivianaDRx

To Angerr, try checking this out: http://www.kmtdesigns.com/hjfaq/ and also MMORPG has pretty much all of the info on HJ, the links should be on the HJ website. IGN has quite a few too.

Hero's Journey can offer you a lot of those things you think it can't.
1. Crafting system - I don't know much about this at the moment. I don't know if or what it will be. The "heroic crafting" they are aiming for indeed sounds interesting, i guess we will have to see as you say. What Vanguard is doing though is making crafting a LOT more involved and actually making crafting a completely different sphere of its own, meaning that it will be equal to adventuring in the amount of content, so you would be able to play solely as a crafter is thats what you wanted. Crafting can be described as a "mini-game" all of its own, just like a round of combat would be. And somewhat similarly to what HJ describes i think, it will result in different outcomes each time you craft. It will require your attention and knowledge in order to craft quality items. Also, similar to HJ you will not be crafting hundreds of the same item. There will be "virtual items" that are not actual physical items and you will be making them for quests etc. When you actually do make a physical item you can bet that you'll be doing it for a reason- maybe as a work order for another player (as others will be able to make orders on items and then crafters can go and take orders that they are suited to fulfill). Diplomacy BTW will also be a complete separate sphere.
2. Diplomacy- I don't know about owning cities, but there will be factions and such, and that will make an impact on the HISTORY of the game, meaning there will be new players in years possibly hearing about -you-. Ok i read this too but here is my problem with this: after the first few hundreds of these types of quests (unless only a handful of individuals experience them, but then you cant really even list it as a feature) is what you do really going to matter? I mean this may have worked with MUDs back in the day when there were only a few hundred players in a world and when you became a "wizard", you could change the world etc. but im not completely sold that this is even possible in modern MMOs, if they pull it off though it could be good. In Vanguards case they are making Diplomacy a whole different sphere as stated above, making it a second gameplay option apart from adventuring. You will influence the hand of kings and likewise the decisions of the Thugs guild. You will need to engage in parlay which requires you to use your words wisely and will there for grant you many things such as access to places you would not normally be able to go (in the throne room of new Taragon for instance or allowed in to see the leader of the thugs etc) Similarly, you will not always need to fight but instead you'll be able to talk your way out of an encounter or if your really skilled maybe even deeper into the camp of some mobs, getting your party in without fighting etc. It will no doubt add a whole new dynamic to quests. Oh and yeah when there will be player built towns and cities, diplomats will be required to run them and to perform communications between NPC cities for example. A large city will be a diplomats equivalent of a dungeon. So now cities will actually have a greater purpose other than to sell your stuff and train.
3. Owning homes, stores, etc.- I DO know players will have homes (and possibly be able to bring others in) and there will be multiple types of mounts. I don't know about stores and that kind of stuff. The thing i don't like about HJ houses and "communities" as they call them is that they will be instanced. Thats a big NO NO in my book. That way all the houses end up feeling pointless, they do however hint at some interesting content for communities to do-sorta like player run cities and towns in Vanguard too. In Vanguard you will be building (through the crafting sphere and high lev crafters no doubt) houses and buildings of many many types and styles. There will also be the option to hire NPC guard and merchants and maybe NPC diplomats of some sorts also as well as NPCs fr crafters. Indeed player run towns will "function" just as well as their NPC counterparts. There are also hints that those NPC guards are needed also there because mobs from the wild may not like seeing a budding player community on their doorsteps, and may invade. Also there is allotted space planed so you can't just have a townwhereever you want, but this then creates a sort of interesting land struggle in PvP servers. Also you will be able to give specific consent to players who are allowed to enter your home or building, these permissions come on a few levels i belive(some people may only go in while you are online for example while others have access all the time[this is just a fictitious example of how it could work]).
4. Oversea travel- There are two types of ships in the game, they're not floating on land! In Vanguard there will be player crafted ships and boats ranging from the simple and easy to acquire shore hugger/ fishing boat all the way up to large scale battle ships, with ship to ship battle planned and yes there will be pirates that attack you, wtaer mobs that attack you and many many interesting pieces of content on islands and smaller land masses. There will be islands that can hold player towns and others that will hide huge dungeons on their tropical shores. One of the 3 starting continents is actually an archipelago so ships and boats will be very valuable there for exploration. There are also druid and other class spells that will affect boat speeds etc. so in PvP ship combat could get extremely tactical, and more than likely in PvE too.
5. Vast world- The world of HJ will be updated on a daily basis, providing new content continually by the "Army of GMs" I can't say this is larger than any game, but it will definitely be fun. Ok here i just have a question/concern- How is the content going to remain at a high level of quality if there are all these GMs adding content daily and wont the world get extremely large/ spread out if they are indeed adding actual landmass(which s suggested from what you state this under)? By content are you referring to events or actual game "content"? I see this being hard to orchestrate f there is an "army" of GM all just stuffing in content. will the content all still fit together? Wont it get trivial if they are just adding the same types of things etc.
6. Hard/Easy- I don't know what the difficulty is, but I'm pretty sure if you want to go do difficult things, you can. (Let me tell you, I'm gonna be soloing) Yes in Vanguard i see a more "hardcore" game as opposed to HJ where they are trying to make it so low levels can play with higher levs etc and limited insta ports to instances etc. Travel time, for instance, will be quite high in Vanguard and they will try to make it fun through different mechanics. Also grouping will be the most viable way to play with solo and raid content also there just not as strong.
7. Community- Again, I don't know (anything!) but if HJ is anything like Simu's other games, it will be immersive, good RP, and an awesome community. There will be conflicts, and friendships, festivals (which happen to be incredibly fun!) and other community based things. Here i am actually getting more and more concerned about Vanguard to tell everyone the truth, and heres why. The early community up until a few moths ago was amazing and there were some truly insightful and mature personalities on their boards. Sadly in the last few months i have seen an influx of kiddies on their forums and their members have more than doubled from 20 000+ to 50 000 users. Now i hardly ever see some of the old members posting however there are growing posts of chuck norris jokes and extreme cases of flaming. I dunno though, maybe all those old guys are now just too fused to their screens playing beta to post Maybe thats what MMO munk was really referring too, but he wont tell us cus he wont break his NDA...or will he?
8. Diversity- What screenshots haven't you been looking at! HJ has all kinds of different places, ranging from deserts, to high caverns with lava, to pretty forest areas, to dark dungeons, and spooky graveyards. Yeah both games are extremely nice to look at but i guess with diversity he was also referring to it affecting gameplay.
9. Pirating- This is something I don't know about for sure, I don't know if there will be ownership of boats, although you can definitely look like, and roleplay a pirate if you want to. In vanguard diplomats will also be very item centric meaning they will have their very own equipment and the like and clothes too. So jusytpicture what type of diplomat items a shady thug type player may have..interesting possibilities, or a noble bureaucrat may have.
10. Become a diplomat- Your faction can rule over the Triumvirate, which governs the three factions. If your faction is in control, you and all of your faction members get benefits. I'm not sure but I think there's deeper player control than that. Here is another area where the two games seem to have similar ideas. Vanguard will have many factions however and faction will really play a much larger role in Diplomacy and parlay options than the other spheres. As pointed out above also, it will influence the direction that cities take. In addition crafters will also influence the success of cities in that for a quest they may get a work order for a specific amount of spears and if the quality of those spears are high enough then the city's guards may be using those to protect the city etc.
11. Caravans- There are the Wanderers, who of course, wander. One thing you might want to consider is: Will it be THAT fun to have to cross large amounts of land? There's a huge debate on the HJ forums about instant travel, and I disagree with it being instant, but I don't think it should take too long either. Well in Vanguard they are trying to make the actual traveling part of the challenge-part of the content. Instead of just auto running or ridding straight though an area while you go and make lunch is not a viable option. There will be decisions to be made and encounters to avoid, and ambushes to overcome. Read up on the mechanics they will use to make travel fun if you like, although they are not releasing a lot of it at this time. There will be no form of large distance teleports however but boats, mounts, and flying mounts all are there to get you around at a progressively good speed while still not completely overpassing essential content. expanding on what MMO Munk said- Caravans will be formed by a group of people and when you join on you will be able to log off while the thing still moves forward, so say you want to stay with your guild while it travels somewhere, but you have to log off? not a problem anymore.
12. Relationship with community- Simu is ALL about roleplay, and although they're not gonna force anyone, it will be VERY encouraged. (Don't forget the GM interaction, we're not just there to BUILD, we're gonna be in the background doing cool things, changing stuff around you while you play, and bringing you cool events like town invasions) Besides that there will be services that players will need from other players. Like getting their boxes opened by rogues, or perhaps getting their armor upgraded by someone who knows how. Ok i have a few comments here too. first of all i don't know how they will implement it completely apart from what ive read but it seems that the vast majority of the current generation of MMO players don't even know what RPing means let alone want to pursue it as the way they will play a game. Its a say fact but its true, so no matter how much it encouraged, most people are still going to only care about the DPS on their sword or that next uber item they want. This in turn will ruin the experience of those that do want to RP, so i would hope you have RPing servers specifically for those that want to RP. This is what Vanguard is doing and their great lore and backstory certainly supports RPing.
Secondly, there was just a discussion about this in the Vanguard forums about the extent that devs should change the existing world and how it might alienate the community who have leveled through that content already. And Brad did comfort us by saying that thay will not be changing the content that people liked and the stuff that worked but after mudflation kicks in they will need to be "freshening up" some of the areas in terms of the difficulty of mobs and the drops etc. i Hope HJ also is careful about this aspect so the game players come to love does not completely change within a year of release by GMs "changing stuff around".
Interdependence in Vanguard ill be key. All the sphere will be relying and working together as well as the different classes in each sphere. Many great achievements in vanguard will require the cooperation of many different types of players over the broad range that is offered in the game. This will really be beautiful to see IMHO- a crafter relying on a group to get down into the depths of a dangerous dungeon to a great forge (mount doom from LOTR anyone?) for example and while he is crafting a legendary item with great care, the group around him maybe fighting off dragon minions that are trying desperately to get to the crafter and protect the forge of their master, while a couple of high lev diplomats are parlaying in the corner with a Dark Wizard of destruction and trying to hold off his rage. Just an example but you can see how complex the systems can get when woven together like this, and the immense amount of situations that can be made by designers by using the three sphere together like this.
13. Graphics- The screenshots for HJ don't compare to the real thing. At all.. I have a lower end graphics card at the moment, (upgrading very soon) and the game looks GORGEOUS to me. But you can't really choose a game just on looks. You could play the prettiest game ever, and it could still suck. I agree with your last sentence here and would also like to say that Vanguard is also the same way in that the screen shots dont do it justice. They are still even yet to implement some lighting features that the game will have.
14. More experienced team- I don't think you can say they are more experienced, some of the GMs currently working on HJ have been working for Simu for YEARS. (I'm guessing anywhere from 5-10) and Simu is VERY experienced in the game industry. They've been making MMOs for 20 YEARS. Text based, yes, but different? Not so much, just add graphics. There's still a lot of coding to do. Oh and did I mention how easy and fun the world building tools are? I don't know if he was referring to HJ dev team specifically but i agree here with you that HJ's team is very experienced, and even Brad and co are designing off of MUD's ultimately. The one thing i will say in favor of Sigil is that there are some obvious differences in graphical MMOs and MUDs. You ask if they are really different and...well...to be honest i think they sorta are in some key things. Of course they share a lot also, but i guess the fact that Sigil has both the experience of MMORPGs and they know MUDs very well give them knowledge of both which will really come in handy. Ultimately they first brought a MUD into 3D so i guess they too know damn well what they are doing.
15. Enhanced fighting- I am assuming you haven't watched the HJ E3 video. The combat is SO interactive! Think solo if you want, or group if you like that. Spell casters will not only cast spells, but choose where it is cast and how to cast it. (think size or shape) also there are combos for those who like groups. The E3 video shows the character jumping off the party members back to be able to hit the creature in the head! Well i have to say that i am liking the ideas HJ has here in terms of combat. I especially liked how you will be able to "draw" in the line you want your wall of fire to take for example. I also think their ideas on interactivity with the environment will really make you feel like your in the world. A lot of people wanted climbing (scaling walls etc) in Vanguard too and they said that they would consider it but ultimately it is not in(or not in yet). HJ seems like it will have climbing and more. Overall strategy and options in combat wise though i think Vanguard has an amazing amount of options and things you'll need to be considering in combat. It will be strategy and thinking paramount over button mashing and auto attacking. Each class will have a completely different feel and way to play. So working together in a group will really be interesting as people will have completely different types of abilities and attacks etc. I really want to but i really should not start explaining the combat system as this post is already getting rather lengthy. Suffice to say that you should check up on it because it will be extremely in depth and interactive. I still really really like some of those HJ ideas though, i think thse types of "targeted" spells may be a great addition to MMOs down the read so in this regard HJ may evolve the genre profoundly. I really think that if both games traded some of their combat ideas then both games would have incredible systems (i still really like Vanguards the way it is though).
Just to make sure you understand, I don't know some things because I just get my information from the MMORPG news. And let me tell you, Brodbane's faq has WAAAAAAAAY more information than even I do. (I've read everything, just can't remember it all. Too much info)

Now let me go into some of the things I personally like about HJ.
The quest system is way more fun than just leveling. Sure you can sit around hunting all day, but come on! Wouldn't you rather do quests?(well i guess not all people view this in the same way, but yeah the quest and whole "journey" system looks promising in HJ, but im still not convinced they need Instances for a lot of quests) In Vanguard its more about the variety of things to do so the game appeals to many different playstyles. These playstyles will all be able to work together though as stated above. Oh and no instanced areas at all. Each character you make will have a completely different story than any other. They'll all have different quests. And you won't have to always be looking for the quests, sometimes they'll come find you. Also the skill system looks particularly interesting to me. From what I understand you gain Hero Points and you can distribute those into your different skills.. (Which are determined by class, and of course you get a main class and a sub class..) Oh and no changing them once you pick em! While Vanguard does not allow for a sub class, the classes that are going into the game are some of the most creative and diverse features i've seen in a game to date. I mean each one will literally play completely different to each other. The balance however is still there on a base level so you will not have to feel gimped if your class is not labeled as the best by powergamers. I read that in HJ they too are going in favor of diversity but are not too concerned about balance, which IMO is quite risky to the health of the game if in the future only one or two classes are deemed the best...just a thought.
Individuality. We all want that. Well in HJ you can pick your face, your hair color and style, (in detail, think nose, eye color, etc.), then pick your clothes, the color of your clothes, and any accessories or designs on the clothes and the colors for those. That means that nobody will ever look exactly alike. Unless it's on purpose. This is how a recent IGN review described character creation in Vanguard:
"Speaking of regions, it looks like you'll have a wide variety of characters to choose from and customize. All the usual high-fantasy creatures are in attendance; from half-elves to halflings to human-animal hybrids, Vanguard looks like it will have something for everyone. And facial customization is by far the most detailed I've seen in an MMO yet. Imagine all the appearance options in, say, City of Heroes, honed in on just one area of the body. Only The Sims 2 comes close. And there's also a huge spectrum of skin tones and eye colors. Want to look pale and sickly, or beefy and tanned? Or pale and beefy? Now you can, and you can look old or young as well. Sigil seems to understand that, in a social online environment, distinctive appearances are important. It's possible that no two Vanguard avatars will look alike."

which ones better? i guess we will have to wait and see, but Sigil too is very concerned about this too and im confident they will make a great system.
Armor strength isn't BASED on the way the clothes look. Sure it sounds more unreal, but this is a fantasy game. Anyway, don't you wanna be a pirate?(not sure i understand this correctly...so say a piece of cloth shirt may have the stats of a steel breastplate? That does not not sound very realistic at all. I don't see why this is even necessary though? is it for the sake of looking a specific way you want? but isnt part of that also playing that way? or do you want to play as a mage but look like a warrior? doesn't make sense to me, sorry some explanation may help)

PVP! I love good pvp. You can set a flag so you can't be attacked, or if you wanna spar with buddies, you can put it to standard. And if you leave it on standard and someone comes and kills you, well their status is set to Overt.. Then they'll be the ones watching their back. sounds like a reasonable compromise. In Vanguard there will be PvP servers and they are planning on diversity in this too in that they will experiment with many variations, so it is entirely possible to see something similar from a Vanguard server. Vanguard is all about playing the way you want.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Also think of the possibility that there will be single -one time only, completed by one group only- kind of quests, that will change Elanthia permanently, the names of whoever completed that quest will go down in history and every other gamer will hear of them. What a way to be a hero. Sigil also talked about this type of questing a while ago and have advancing storylines with their live team. I explained the downfalls of a system like this though. This type of content will only really be experienced by a handful of players or if not then it really becomes trivial in that your achievements don't really matter in the grand scheme of things.
One last thing, Simu has a LOT of experience with game economy, and they will most likely have the most stable economy out of any other mmorpg out there. Lol that is a pretty big thing to claim but we will see. So far i have extreme faith in brad and his philosophy on game economies, and really think that it will be Vanguard with an extremely stable economy for years to come, the last part being the real important part. Lol but i guess our arguments are based on what we have both read and on complete speculation so i guess ill keep reading info until i feel i have read most then i will make a final decision. So far what i have read still makes me highly in favor of Sigil knowing their game economy better than any company i have ever seen.

That's just cracking the ice. Go read the stuff about it here, or check out the faq. They're both really good sources of information. Yeah there is a ton of Vanguard info available that goes into a plethora of features that there is just not enough space to list. In the end both games will no doubt be successful and targeted for a slightly different audience(although right now they actually appear to be targeted for surprisingly similar players) The fact that Vanguard comes out earlier though may give it an unfair advantage, as i don't see why someone waiting for HJ (having similar tastes) would not try Vanguard while they wait.

I will continue reading HJ infoz and getting educated if you will likewise go through the silkyvenom FAQ (as slow as it may be lol) then we can continue the debate in a more precise fashion.

~Dunadurium

Leiron · February 2006

5. Vast world- The world of HJ will be updated on a daily basis, providing new content continually by the "Army of GMs" I can't say this is larger than any game, but it will definitely be fun. Ok here i just have a question/concern- How is the content going to remain at a high level of quality if there are all these GMs adding content daily and wont the world get extremely large/ spread out if they are indeed adding actual landmass(which s suggested from what you state this under)? By content are you referring to events or actual game "content"? I see this being hard to orchestrate f there is an "army" of GM all just stuffing in content. will the content all still fit together? Wont it get trivial if they are just adding the same types of things etc.

I cannot see Simu's GMs "just stuffing in content" into the game. HJ has been in the making now for what, six plus years. From my experience with simutronics, everything is well thought through, and well planned. With an ever changing world content must be ever changing as well, we'll have to see to what they have up their sleeve.

9. Pirating- This is something I don't know about for sure, I don't know if there will be ownership of boats, although you can definitely look like, and roleplay a pirate if you want to. In vanguard diplomats will also be very item centric meaning they will have their very own equipment and the like and clothes too. So jusytpicture what type of diplomat items a shady thug type player may have..interesting possibilities, or a noble bureaucrat may have.

I cant speak for Vanguard, I need to polish up on it, however HJ seems to be following a similar path with clan/guild/faction specific items.

Armor strength isn't BASED on the way the clothes look. Sure it sounds more unreal, but this is a fantasy game. Anyway, don't you wanna be a pirate?(not sure i understand this correctly...so say a piece of cloth shirt may have the stats of a steel breastplate? That does not not sound very realistic at all. I don't see why this is even necessary though? is it for the sake of looking a specific way you want? but isnt part of that also playing that way? or do you want to play as a mage but look like a warrior? doesn't make sense to me, sorry some explanation may help)

My reply is in the form of a question. How realistic is it to be an Ilvari Mist Folk(magic aligned elf), wielding magic spells, riding on the back of a giant Targust, to go fight a pack of Rakshall or goblins?

Isn't that the whole point of playing a fantasy mmorpg? Suspend disbelief ;-) The clothes/armor/items you have can all grow in power through advancement. Instead of purchasing new items all the time, you merely train the ones you have. However you are not limited to the clothing/armor/weapon items you created at the character gen. So you can always change clothes/weapons/armor at any time. Imagine having a cloth shirt with the stats of a stell breastplate, yeah you would look like a bum fighting in the woods, but if thats how you want to play more power to you!

Just my thoughts,

Leiron

Arcona · March 2006

There is a unofficial FAQ for HJ
http://www.kmtdesigns.com/hjfaq/

Other mmorpgs have been very linear imo, even World Of Warcraft with its many quests once you have played to 60 once. The journey system will give you an unique experience every time.

The Journey System is a system that adapts quests and gameplay based on the player's decisions, potentially leading to such things as the evolution of a specific creature as a player's nemesis, showing up frequently only to escape each time.

you can have a enchanted sword that has abilities of its own. You can level the sword up, get new abilities for it and enhance it in the same way as your character.

the Quests dynamically adjust to a groups level, this new content will be available to all users instead of just a small segment that happens to fall within a specific level range.

Monsters can devise traps and ambushes, call for reinforcements, utilize chokepoints, and tank for their casters, just like players.

In conclusion, HJ seems to have improvements on all areas, while other upcoming mmorpgs seem to have improvements on 2-3 fields

xDivianaDRx · March 2006

The master/apprentice system in HJ looks good too..

"High level characters may elect to form a long-term mentoring relationship with lower level characters. Apprentices learn more quickly when hunting with their Masters, and also for a short time later while practicing what was learned. Masters also benefit from the exchange, gaining experience at a slightly faster rate when theyre assisting their Apprentice. All around, Master / Apprentice Relationships are a win / win situation that allows players to help their friends catch up if theyve fallen behind."

-Melissa Meyer, December 13, 2005

It all looks good. HJ looks especially good with my new video card. Sometimes I just sit there in the game looking around, wishing it was full of players.

Naazir · March 2006

I have only been looking into a replacement for WoW for about 3 weeks now. I came across Vanguard pretty quickly (and easily), then found this MMORPG.COM site. LOVE this site, so much info here. This is where I heard about Hero's Journey. When I first checked it out I was thinking it's just another so-so game, I'll keep an eye on it. Then I checked out their screenshots. I was blown away ::::04:: by the monsters they've created! I love the original ideas and the artwork is amazing! ::::08::

But that's about all I have in favor of HJ. Still waiting for them to move along some more.

Naazir · March 2006

Originally posted by xDivianaDRx
The master/apprentice system in HJ looks good too.."High level characters may elect to form a long-term mentoring relationship with lower level characters. Apprentices learn more quickly when hunting with their Masters, and also for a short time later while practicing what was learned. Masters also benefit from the exchange, gaining experience at a slightly faster rate when theyre assisting their Apprentice. All around, Master / Apprentice Relationships are a win / win situation that allows players to help their friends catch up if theyve fallen behind."-Melissa Meyer, December 13, 2005It all looks good. HJ looks especially good with my new video card. Sometimes I just sit there in the game looking around, wishing it was full of players.

This reminds me of one of the features of Earth and Beyond that I hated. High level characters would pay low level characters to group with them and tour the galaxy. The lower levels would gain exp for discovering new areas and the higher levels would gleen exp by grouping with them. It just felt so wrong to me. I hope HJ can do something a little more meaningful with this other than higher ups "using" lower level people to level THEM up.

Dento · March 2006

I like the way both games look and honestly i will be playing which ever game comes out first or whichever invites me to beta

I am sure I will try them both sooner or later. I have been looking for a new long term game ever since I left AC.

I just wish I knew the release dates.

I'm getting really bored and after trying EVE (what a huge disappointment that was) I'm getting frustrated lol

after thinking about it I really hate the HJ website on play.net.

it looks cheesy and hard to navagate and the last post was 12/05 not much info there at all

EliasThorne · March 2006

Originally posted by Naazir
This reminds me of one of the features of Earth and Beyond that I hated. High level characters would pay low level characters to group with them and tour the galaxy. The lower levels would gain exp for discovering new areas and the higher levels would gleen exp by grouping with them. It just felt so wrong to me. I hope HJ can do something a little more meaningful with this other than higher ups "using" lower level people to level THEM up.

Its a shame that feels wrong to you, but having wanted to play many times with real life friends and being unable to simply because they had to go away on work for a few weeks really sucks!!!!

xDivianaDRx · May 2006

Thought I'd say

We're always welcoming new people.

Howdy, Stranger!

Vanguard or Hero's Journey?

Comments

Howdy, Stranger!

Quick Links

Vanguard or Hero's Journey?

Comments