Why? What's the difference? Also, what if a race is a single gender(Elin, Baraka)?
This isn't that hard to understand. If you want to be a Captain in LOTRO you need to roll a human. Because lore and history of the class. If you want to be a Loremaster, you need to roll a race other than Hobbit or Dwarf. Because lore and history of the class. If there's no lore reason for constraint of classes, then it's open to all classes. Any race can be a Guardian or Hunter or Minstrel.
But I will grant that few games have the depth of lore that the Lord of the Rings has.
I prefer race and sex locked classes. It adds flavor and uniqueness to the world.
In Warhammer online, it annoyed me to no end that there were female Knights and dwarfs, and male sorcerers. I suppose I should be grateful we didn't get something even more absurd like female orcs or male Witch Elves.
Shadowbane had a lot of race and sex restrictions on classes and disciplines. It created unique builds and kept things interesting. If anything I wish there had been more restrictions.
Dwarves and Minotaurs are male only races.
Warlock is a male only class.
Huntress and Fury are female only classes.
Valkyr is a female only discipline. \
How do dwarves reproduce without female dwarves? Asexually?
IIRC Tolkien's original female dwarves were also bearded, and thus would be difficult to distinguish from males in the first place.
I prefer race and sex locked classes. It adds flavor and uniqueness to the world.
WTF ?!? No it doesnt. It limits your options and is a sign for a shallow game. I dont know a single actual roleplaying game that does this.
Actually it would be the opposite. At least if done correctly. Having anybody be anything is pretty much everything but the kitchen sink. No subtlety or nuance just everbody be anything.
That's pretty shallow.
Having a well made game where classes are tied to sexes because of politics, tribal rules, Clan expectations, etc, brings in the depth.
But again, it has to be done "right" and not arbitrarily.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I prefer race and sex locked classes. It adds flavor and uniqueness to the world.
WTF ?!? No it doesnt. It limits your options and is a sign for a shallow game. I dont know a single actual roleplaying game that does this.
Actually it would be the opposite. At least if done correctly. Having anybody be anything is pretty much everything but the kitchen sink. No subtlety or nuance just everbody be anything.
That's pretty shallow.
Having a well made game where classes are tied to sexes because of politics, tribal rules, Clan expectations, etc, brings in the depth.
But again, it has to be done "right" and not arbitrarily.
A world where every culture has the same modern progressive values of Western Europe would be a like a world where the only flavor of icecream was lima bean.
You look at Warhammer and there are tons of sex based restrictions. It's one of the most popular settings in existence.
The Empire is a straight patriarchal society.
In Bretonnia only men can be knights, but only women can be prophetesses and damsels (basically the priesthood of Bretonnia).
The High Elves are largely a meritocracy outside of the Phoenix King and Everqueen roles.
The Dark Elves have all kinds of restrictions. Only females can be part of the priesthood of Khaine, or sorceresses (male sorcerers are forbidden because of a prophecy), only males can be assassins, etc.
Or D&D. The Drow are a matriarchy and only females can be preistesses of Lolth.
In terms of body type, the adventures that we generally play are the equivalent of special forces of the respective era they play. From long marches, to insane feats of strength, even for mage types, I would expect none to have a fat physique, while the majority to range from slim to heavy muscular, depending on profession.
In terms of sexuality, if the settings were not fantasy of different sorts, one would expect an overwhelmingly male presence. Since the settings are usually fictional, the gender becomes secondary to the player's choice. If the developer can accommodate, then they should be encouraged to do so. Small development teams though can be budget and time restricted, especially if the characters are also animated properly. In those cases, better to launch gender restricted with proper clothing and animation, than not launch at all.
You choose your gender. It should not be fluid. The End.
but you agree you can chose it? didn't see that one comming, did ya?
My guess is that he's referring to a one time choice, can't make up your mind later kind of deal. While fluid means flexible to switch around. No mmorpg allows such a thing ... ... ... without giving them money for the privilege.
On an unrelated note, I find it funny when people seem distressed when they realise that the majority does not play exclusively their RL gender.
You choose your gender. It should not be fluid. The End.
but you agree you can chose it? didn't see that one comming, did ya?
My guess is that he's referring to a one time choice, can't make up your mind later kind of deal. While fluid means flexible to switch around. No mmorpg allows such a thing ... ... ... without giving them money for the privilege.
On an unrelated note, I find it funny when people seem distressed when they realise that the majority does not play exclusively their RL gender.
Switching genders in RL costs money too so I guess the service offered in MMORPGs is actually very realistic.
Also, most of the time this is about females not getting all male classes because of “issues.” In truth, genderlocking isn’t strange at all, male amazones, furies, valkyries etc. would be ridiculous. But that isn’t the real issue when talking about genderlocking now is it?
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
No, it's 100% economics. It's basically double the workload considering that everything needs to be created twice for both genders, plus the two genders need their own anatomically correct animations (could skip this part, but then things look off).
The interesting bit is that the situation does not affect solely the indie developers. Big AAA developers like Square Enix apparently had to push for gender locked races, despite popular demand. The new races won't even have working helmets for the foreseeable future.
No, it's 100% economics. It's basically double the workload considering that everything needs to be created twice for both genders, plus the two genders need their own anatomically correct animations (could skip this part, but then things look off).
The interesting bit is that the situation does not affect solely the indie developers. Big AAA developers like Square Enix apparently had to push for gender locked races, despite popular demand. The new races won't even have working helmets for the foreseeable future.
Yea, I'll repeat that gender locking is a good indication of budget restrictions. Which means that if you see a game that has them, you might want to consider that (although of course you should consider other factors too). In Squaresoft's case, now that FFXIV is old, they've become cheapskates (though this is more about the other race not having females than Vera not having males. I can actually buy the "Even though male Vera exist in the lore, one has never been seen in any official material and we're too scared to be the first" excuse. Ivalice is still potentially an active franchise in Squaresoft's repertoire so if they ever do design and showcase a male Vera, it should be from a canon source. I'd hate to be the FFXIV developer who commissions a male Vera design only for the actual official male Vera to end up looking completely different)
No, it's 100% economics. It's basically double the workload considering that everything needs to be created twice for both genders, plus the two genders need their own anatomically correct animations (could skip this part, but then things look off).
The interesting bit is that the situation does not affect solely the indie developers. Big AAA developers like Square Enix apparently had to push for gender locked races, despite popular demand. The new races won't even have working helmets for the foreseeable future.
Yea, I'll repeat that gender locking is a good indication of budget restrictions. Which means that if you see a game that has them, you might want to consider that (although of course you should consider other factors too). In Squaresoft's case, now that FFXIV is old, they've become cheapskates (though this is more about the other race not having females than Vera not having males. I can actually buy the "Even though male Vera exist in the lore, one has never been seen in any official material and we're too scared to be the first" excuse. Ivalice is still potentially an active franchise in Squaresoft's repertoire so if they ever do design and showcase a male Vera, it should be from a canon source. I'd hate to be the FFXIV developer who commissions a male Vera design only for the actual official male Vera to end up looking completely different)
Yeah, no.... The economics is all there is to it train of thought is such a gross oversimplification it doesn’t even do the subject justice, its just agenda pushing since there are TONS of lore reasons that make perfect sense and have also been mentioned, several times, in this very thread.
And in the case of FFXIV its easy to take the glass half empty approach. But if you turn that around and say that Square has actually gone through all the trouble of creating an entire race for both genders instead of just one then all of a sudden they aren’t cheapskates anymore and did a ton of work. Funny how that works.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Why? What's the difference? Also, what if a race is a single gender(Elin, Baraka)?
This isn't that hard to understand. If you want to be a Captain in LOTRO you need to roll a human. Because lore and history of the class. If you want to be a Loremaster, you need to roll a race other than Hobbit or Dwarf. Because lore and history of the class. If there's no lore reason for constraint of classes, then it's open to all classes. Any race can be a Guardian or Hunter or Minstrel.
But I will grant that few games have the depth of lore that the Lord of the Rings has.
Well, from your examples:
Captain: No reason why it couldn't at least have "Elf" under its race list. Unless we forgot about Glorfindel and co.
Loremaster: No reason why Hobbitses (or Dwarves) can't be this. Hobbits are literally trivia freaks, it'd fit with Loremaster. Not certain about Dwarves though.
Isn't the main reason that Tolkien did not write the culture that way? Or does lore go out the window now?
Logically, I agree. Hobitses would be great as loremasters, but they just aren't. Who knows? Maybe The Shire hasn't heard about them yet. Remember, Bilbo was thought "very odd" for even wanting to go adventuring
Logic and lore don't always co-exist well
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
You choose your gender. It should not be fluid. The End.
but you agree you can chose it? didn't see that one comming, did ya?
While fluid means flexible to switch around. No mmorpg allows such a thing ... ... ... without giving them money for the privilege.
Runescape allows (or allowed, haven't played in a while) you to pay the equivalent of 10-15 minutes' work in gold to an NPC that swaps your gender. There's even a quest where you need to switch genders to defeat an enemy who "cannot be harmed by any man".
Why? What's the difference? Also, what if a race is a single gender(Elin, Baraka)?
This isn't that hard to understand. If you want to be a Captain in LOTRO you need to roll a human. Because lore and history of the class. If you want to be a Loremaster, you need to roll a race other than Hobbit or Dwarf. Because lore and history of the class. If there's no lore reason for constraint of classes, then it's open to all classes. Any race can be a Guardian or Hunter or Minstrel.
But I will grant that few games have the depth of lore that the Lord of the Rings has.
Well, from your examples:
Captain: No reason why it couldn't at least have "Elf" under its race list. Unless we forgot about Glorfindel and co.
Loremaster: No reason why Hobbitses (or Dwarves) can't be this. Hobbits are literally trivia freaks, it'd fit with Loremaster. Not certain about Dwarves though.
Isn't the main reason that Tolkien did not write the culture that way? Or does lore go out the window now?
Logically, I agree. Hobitses would be great as loremasters, but they just aren't. Who knows? Maybe The Shire hasn't heard about them yet. Remember, Bilbo was thought "very odd" for even wanting to go adventuring
Logic and lore don't always co-exist well
And think about it, Hobbits might be "trivia freaks" but they are essentially an insulated society only concerned with their own society.
They don't go a travelin' and collecting history bits. And there is no television or internet. So logically they wouldn't be great lore masters.
Now, Elves might be insular as well but they seem to have a greater understanding of the history of the world and their place in it.
Dwarves might as well, come to think of it, but while they have a greater understanding of the world, they don't go traveling under field and sky preferring to stay underground. I suppose Thorin and folks had a very specific reason to do so.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Did you know that Tolkein used to teach English literature at Leeds university in the 1930's and my dad got his English degree from Leeds university in early 1950's. My dad was 20 years too late to be in his class, but it would have been cool if he did.
Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
Yes he lore may have male X and female Y but that doesn't mean that "lore stereotyping" should be perpetuated. Remember the "lore" - or source material - was written / recorded at a point n time.
Delve into books / history / lore and you will find: getting rid of the unproductive old, chucking deformed babies out, slavery (which came in all colours), religious persecution, blanket assumptions that racial stereotype type x is lazy, stupid etc. etc.
Justifying such stuff by saying .... ah well its historical or its in the source material or in the lore etc. does not make it OK to promulgate.
Why? What's the difference? Also, what if a race is a single gender(Elin, Baraka)?
This isn't that hard to understand. If you want to be a Captain in LOTRO you need to roll a human. Because lore and history of the class. If you want to be a Loremaster, you need to roll a race other than Hobbit or Dwarf. Because lore and history of the class. If there's no lore reason for constraint of classes, then it's open to all classes. Any race can be a Guardian or Hunter or Minstrel.
But I will grant that few games have the depth of lore that the Lord of the Rings has.
Well, from your examples:
Captain: No reason why it couldn't at least have "Elf" under its race list. Unless we forgot about Glorfindel and co.
Loremaster: No reason why Hobbitses (or Dwarves) can't be this. Hobbits are literally trivia freaks, it'd fit with Loremaster. Not certain about Dwarves though.
Isn't the main reason that Tolkien did not write the culture that way? Or does lore go out the window now?
Logically, I agree. Hobitses would be great as loremasters, but they just aren't. Who knows? Maybe The Shire hasn't heard about them yet. Remember, Bilbo was thought "very odd" for even wanting to go adventuring
Logic and lore don't always co-exist well
And think about it, Hobbits might be "trivia freaks" but they are essentially an insulated society only concerned with their own society.
They don't go a travelin' and collecting history bits. And there is no television or internet. So logically they wouldn't be great lore masters.
Now, Elves might be insular as well but they seem to have a greater understanding of the history of the world and their place in it.
Dwarves might as well, come to think of it, but while they have a greater understanding of the world, they don't go traveling under field and sky preferring to stay underground. I suppose Thorin and folks had a very specific reason to do so.
Lets face it - if you were following "the lore" you wouldn't be able to select hobbit as a race!
Why? What's the difference? Also, what if a race is a single gender(Elin, Baraka)?
This isn't that hard to understand. If you want to be a Captain in LOTRO you need to roll a human. Because lore and history of the class. If you want to be a Loremaster, you need to roll a race other than Hobbit or Dwarf. Because lore and history of the class. If there's no lore reason for constraint of classes, then it's open to all classes. Any race can be a Guardian or Hunter or Minstrel.
But I will grant that few games have the depth of lore that the Lord of the Rings has.
Well, from your examples:
Captain: No reason why it couldn't at least have "Elf" under its race list. Unless we forgot about Glorfindel and co.
Loremaster: No reason why Hobbitses (or Dwarves) can't be this. Hobbits are literally trivia freaks, it'd fit with Loremaster. Not certain about Dwarves though.
Isn't the main reason that Tolkien did not write the culture that way? Or does lore go out the window now?
Logically, I agree. Hobitses would be great as loremasters, but they just aren't. Who knows? Maybe The Shire hasn't heard about them yet. Remember, Bilbo was thought "very odd" for even wanting to go adventuring
Logic and lore don't always co-exist well
And think about it, Hobbits might be "trivia freaks" but they are essentially an insulated society only concerned with their own society.
They don't go a travelin' and collecting history bits. And there is no television or internet. So logically they wouldn't be great lore masters.
Now, Elves might be insular as well but they seem to have a greater understanding of the history of the world and their place in it.
Dwarves might as well, come to think of it, but while they have a greater understanding of the world, they don't go traveling under field and sky preferring to stay underground. I suppose Thorin and folks had a very specific reason to do so.
Lets face it - if you were following "the lore" you wouldn't be able to select hobbit as a race!
Actually I agree. I think players should only have been human and not have access to a lot of magic.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I've never even cared enough to notice. The only reason I can name a game with locked genders is because I read an article complaining about it. It's just one of the hundreds of choices that developers make that I either enjoy or don't, take or leave.
Comments
That's pretty shallow.
Having a well made game where classes are tied to sexes because of politics, tribal rules, Clan expectations, etc, brings in the depth.
But again, it has to be done "right" and not arbitrarily.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
MAGA
In terms of sexuality, if the settings were not fantasy of different sorts, one would expect an overwhelmingly male presence. Since the settings are usually fictional, the gender becomes secondary to the player's choice. If the developer can accommodate, then they should be encouraged to do so. Small development teams though can be budget and time restricted, especially if the characters are also animated properly. In those cases, better to launch gender restricted with proper clothing and animation, than not launch at all.
and there are enough other example so gender locked classes are legit.
but you agree you can chose it?
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
No mmorpg allows such a thing ...
...
... without giving them money for the privilege.
On an unrelated note, I find it funny when people seem distressed when they realise that the majority does not play exclusively their RL gender.
Also, most of the time this is about females not getting all male classes because of “issues.” In truth, genderlocking isn’t strange at all, male amazones, furies, valkyries etc. would be ridiculous. But that isn’t the real issue when talking about genderlocking now is it?
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
The interesting bit is that the situation does not affect solely the indie developers. Big AAA developers like Square Enix apparently had to push for gender locked races, despite popular demand. The new races won't even have working helmets for the foreseeable future.
And in the case of FFXIV its easy to take the glass half empty approach. But if you turn that around and say that Square has actually gone through all the trouble of creating an entire race for both genders instead of just one then all of a sudden they aren’t cheapskates anymore and did a ton of work. Funny how that works.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Logically, I agree. Hobitses would be great as loremasters, but they just aren't. Who knows? Maybe The Shire hasn't heard about them yet. Remember, Bilbo was thought "very odd" for even wanting to go adventuring
Logic and lore don't always co-exist well
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
They don't go a travelin' and collecting history bits. And there is no television or internet. So logically they wouldn't be great lore masters.
Now, Elves might be insular as well but they seem to have a greater understanding of the history of the world and their place in it.
Dwarves might as well, come to think of it, but while they have a greater understanding of the world, they don't go traveling under field and sky preferring to stay underground. I suppose Thorin and folks had a very specific reason to do so.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
Yes he lore may have male X and female Y but that doesn't mean that "lore stereotyping" should be perpetuated. Remember the "lore" - or source material - was written / recorded at a point n time.
Delve into books / history / lore and you will find: getting rid of the unproductive old, chucking deformed babies out, slavery (which came in all colours), religious persecution, blanket assumptions that racial stereotype type x is lazy, stupid etc. etc.
Justifying such stuff by saying .... ah well its historical or its in the source material or in the lore etc. does not make it OK to promulgate.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo