After Max Level

Amaranthar · June 2019

Just a question, but do you see any possibility of alternate game play that might keep you in an MMORPG after reaching max level/skill?

Economics, building, exploration WITH discoveries of new things, etc.?

centkin · June 2019

More levels.

Amaranthar · June 2019

centkin said:

More levels.

That's a viable answer.
Whatever anyone wants to say, this is just a question and not meant as an attempt to start an argument. I just want to get a reading of what the locals think.

MightyUnclean · June 2019

The best post-cap system I've encountered was the Alternate Advancement in EQ, where you could work almost endlessly on acquiring various skills and permanent buffs. It basically resulted in sitting around in a group to grind mobs for XP, but that lead to a lot of socialization, which was the best part of EQ for me.

blamo2000 · June 2019

For me, I need multiple things to do. The arena is big for me. I loved it in WoW when I played up through WotLK, and I loved it in Wildstar (2v2 mostly, I dislike 5v5).

I've never tried the base thing they have in WoW (or used to have at if they don't have it anymore), but that seems infinitely more interesting to me than the survival/pvp game type crafting a house, or guild city.

I never found raiding fun and has always been an annoying means to an end. Some things that have worked as good carrots on a stick to keep me around end game is faction grinding, daily quests sometimes if there is good shit I can buy on an AH, some limited crafting systems like in either BC or WotLK you would get crafting drops you could use to make a good item, or improve items (or at least weapons). Arena is a really big one. Tinkering with my character build. Leveling alts.

I'm sure there is more I'm missing, but in general that is my list. I hate exploring. I hate how map designers think its so fucking clever to make you run around like an idiot trying to figure out how to get to that spot. And they add those spots everywhere. I hate jumping puzzle nonsense too. I hate having to collect nonsense (like books in ESO or all the various shit in DCUO). I hate looking. I hate pixel hunting. I think housing and decoration is nonsense but I don't mind if a game has it and I can sell all the decoration nonsense to other players and profit off their weird Barbie Doll fun house fetish. I really hate that crafting turned from something fun and somewhat useful to being 90% of games and no one calls them what they are (crafting games) but instead calls them Survival games or PVP games. I hate a lot of things. I could probably go on forever.

blamo2000 · June 2019

MightyUnclean said:

The best post-cap system I've encountered was the Alternate Advancement in EQ, where you could work almost endlessly on acquiring various skills and permanent buffs. It basically resulted in sitting around in a group to grind mobs for XP, but that lead to a lot of socialization, which was the best part of EQ for me.

I'm not familiar with it in EQ but I enjoyed how they did it in EQ2. AO did it really well too. I'm not a huge fan of when it is endless, like with Rift. I don't know if they changed it but Neverwinter Online had an AA type system tied to really heavy daily quest grinding in specific areas so was heavily time gated and I wasn't a big fan of it.

But, I definitely agree AA is a great carrot on a stick in general.

BeansnBread · June 2019

I like systems that have extremely varied loot. Diablo was the first major experience I had with that and Diablo 2 just put that on steroids. Star Wars Galaxies was another example for me which had some major RNG and a great chase for perfect gear. For me, it's the fine tuning which adds to the endgame.

But I don't think very many people feel this way. Clearing difficult content is the goal in the current "meta" and why interrupt that with RNG (especially if you are playing with friends and others). And I am down to be a part of that. But I remember what it was like when gear was unique and interesting and to be honest, I miss it.

iixviiiix · June 2019

Season cards more card . i Currently playing waifu card collecting game

delete5230 · June 2019

coretex666 said:

I personally dislike the design built around endgame.

For me, MMORPGs are very much about the vertical character progression. I prefer games in which the level cap is hardly obtainable (e.g. Lineage 2) and where the gameplay is not split between the leveling part and the endgame part.

There is not much that would hold me in a game for long once I hit the max level. I think earlier expansion of WoW (vanilla, wotlk) were the only exception. I did enjoy raiding and PVP in that game.

Vanilla WoW, it took the first time player 6 to 9 months to reach max level.

Two things came from that:
-the obvious, longevity.
-re-playability with different classes and other faction.

Important:
Max level in an mmorpg shouldn't be an issue... but it is now, since games have only 30 days of content.

Scot · June 2019

You could try a switch to a different sort of MMO, say theme park to top level then sandbox, but players of these different gaming styles are not necessarily going to want to spend a huge amount of time in every MMO gameplay variant. They may just want them park, just want sandbox.

AlBQuirky · June 2019

Alternate characters for me.

Shaigh · June 2019

Dungeon gameplay, raiding, PvP. I find content progression far more interesting than character progression.

bcbully · June 2019

PvP. It’s time to see if you really learned how to play the game.

Kyleran · June 2019

Something like DAOC did, only had 50 levels, but there was originally 100 realm ranks (later expanded to 15) earned from fighting in the realm wars.

Players earned a skill point for each rank to be spent on skills if their choice.

They even thought to add skills which would appeal to PVE centric players, but made a huge design mistake where only PVP centric builds and skill points were viable in RVR.

Worse, a player could not easily respec between the two, a huge mistake IMO.

If players could have readily flipped between two set ups, one for PVE and one for PVP I think they would have gained a lot of traction with the casual PVP crowd.

Rhygarth · June 2019

Anarchy Online had 200 normal lvl's that took some grinding to get to but i enjoyed it then they added 20 shadow lvl's and they took even longer but i still enjoyed it, MMO's these days you rush to max lvl in a few days then its boring raiding for gear

Vermillion_Raventhal · June 2019

Depends on the type of MMORPG. Ideally a blend of sandbox with procedurally generated themepark activities I would have...

Kingdom building with option or mostly option PvP.

City building with multiple urban planning blueprints to make player cities look more realistic

Exploration for unique procedurally genrated resources/cultures/enemies in a super huge world.

Trading localized and unique resources caravans.

Crafting with unique materials and localized blueprints.

World crafting events(repair old portal/building bridges/etc) to open new areas up.

Raiding based on world master seeded and procedurally generated threats to local game world.

Questing being one time procedurally generated and some times side effects of raid level content.

Dynamic events from unchecked raid level content.

Players able to run their own shops.

Players able to run their own resource gather operations like lumber yards/mines.

World master events.

Quizzical · June 2019

Having a lot of content that is intended to be done at the max level is the way to do it. See Guild Wars 1 and 2 for the best examples.

Ungood · June 2019

Amaranthar said:

Just a question, but do you see any possibility of alternate game play that might keep you in an MMORPG after reaching max level/skill?

Economics, building, exploration WITH discoveries of new things, etc.?

Almost every MMORPG has a means by which continual progression happens long after max level.

In fact, a lot of games use these as "Steps" as opposed to some mythical "Max",

Let me use an example, in the MMO Guild Wars 2.

When your character reaches max level at 80th, that unlocks Mastery Lines, this also opens up things like questing for Legendary Armor, Weapons, Gear, and the ability to to higher level fractals and raids.

In short, getting to "Max Level" was just the end of one leveling process and the start of others. Most MMO's are built this way, often providing all kinds of progressive grinds, even if not directly called "levels" they are for all mechanical sense, just more levels to the game.

Now what do you get if at some point you remove these levels, you remove these grinds?

Well you end up with either something Second Life, which is purely a social game, the whole game is devoid of levels, so all it is, is purely exploration, building, social, and economics. If that was what you were looking for, there is no point to put in pointless preemptive grind to get to this point, and it's better to simply build or play a game like this from the start.

For the players that are competitive, like combat, but also do not want to deal with any kind of Grind, you have games like Apex Legends, or Overwatch, which is all about the thrill of the fight and combat, with none of the pesky grind leading up to it.

In the end, an MMORPG is a game that is about the journey, this is why they often have endlessly progressive systems designed around the accumulation of character power, and all other facets of the game, are driven by that motive.

IE: Dungeons are done for the rewards, not for the enjoyment, or social, or what have you, they are done mainly for the rewards.

GW2, proved this, when they opted to remove Dungeons from their game, and were looking to move players away from them, they simply nerfed the rewards and the vast majority of dungeon runs died overnight.

So if at some point, a player was to truly max out their character, chances are they would stop playing, take a break, till the next expansion.. which.. is why games put out expansions, and there is always a surge of players returning to the game, to make to the new highest level, to max out their characters once again.

So.. what happens really, to players once they Max Out in a game.. they take a break, sometimes they move on to other games, sometimes they just stop playing altogether.

Very few, will stay around and grind for the sake of grinding, which is why MMORPG's become once you have maxed out, pointless worthless grind for the sake of grind.

Does this answer your question?

Octagon7711 · June 2019

Most games I enjoy I then level other classes. After that I find mid level activities to do on a regular basis while waiting for DLC, expansions, new classes or shift to another game until they update with new content. I'll also experiment with different builds a lot.

ESO, I can always work on finishing other skill lines and maxing out additional weapon types.

Amathe · June 2019

I also loved the Alternative Advancement system in EQ.

Quizzical · June 2019

Ungood said:

Amaranthar said:

Just a question, but do you see any possibility of alternate game play that might keep you in an MMORPG after reaching max level/skill?

Economics, building, exploration WITH discoveries of new things, etc.?

Almost every MMORPG has a means by which continual progression happens long after max level.

In fact, a lot of games use these as "Steps" as opposed to some mythical "Max",

Let me use an example, in the MMO Guild Wars 2.

When your character reaches max level at 80th, that unlocks Mastery Lines, this also opens up things like questing for Legendary Armor, Weapons, Gear, and the ability to to higher level fractals and raids.

In short, getting to "Max Level" was just the end of one leveling process and the start of others. Most MMO's are built this way, often providing all kinds of progressive grinds, even if not directly called "levels" they are for all mechanical sense, just more levels to the game.

Now what do you get if at some point you remove these levels, you remove these grinds?

Well you end up with either something Second Life, which is purely a social game, the whole game is devoid of levels, so all it is, is purely exploration, building, social, and economics. If that was what you were looking for, there is no point to put in pointless preemptive grind to get to this point, and it's better to simply build or play a game like this from the start.

For the players that are competitive, like combat, but also do not want to deal with any kind of Grind, you have games like Apex Legends, or Overwatch, which is all about the thrill of the fight and combat, with none of the pesky grind leading up to it.

In the end, an MMORPG is a game that is about the journey, this is why they often have endlessly progressive systems designed around the accumulation of character power, and all other facets of the game, are driven by that motive.

IE: Dungeons are done for the rewards, not for the enjoyment, or social, or what have you, they are done mainly for the rewards.

GW2, proved this, when they opted to remove Dungeons from their game, and were looking to move players away from them, they simply nerfed the rewards and the vast majority of dungeon runs died overnight.

So if at some point, a player was to truly max out their character, chances are they would stop playing, take a break, till the next expansion.. which.. is why games put out expansions, and there is always a surge of players returning to the game, to make to the new highest level, to max out their characters once again.

So.. what happens really, to players once they Max Out in a game.. they take a break, sometimes they move on to other games, sometimes they just stop playing altogether.

Very few, will stay around and grind for the sake of grinding, which is why MMORPG's become once you have maxed out, pointless worthless grind for the sake of grind.

Does this answer your question?

You cite Guild Wars 2, but it is quite an outlier. A large fraction of the game's content is intended to be done at the level cap, including all of both expansions and most of the dungeons.

Most MMORPGs have only some token sliver of content that is intended to be done at the level cap. They may still have progression that rewards you for looping that tiny sliver of content endlessly. But that's a much weaker reason to continue playing the game than actual content.

Amaranthar · June 2019

Ungood said:

Amaranthar said:

Just a question, but do you see any possibility of alternate game play that might keep you in an MMORPG after reaching max level/skill?

Economics, building, exploration WITH discoveries of new things, etc.?

Almost every MMORPG has a means by which continual progression happens long after max level.

In fact, a lot of games use these as "Steps" as opposed to some mythical "Max",

Let me use an example, in the MMO Guild Wars 2.

When your character reaches max level at 80th, that unlocks Mastery Lines, this also opens up things like questing for Legendary Armor, Weapons, Gear, and the ability to to higher level fractals and raids.

In short, getting to "Max Level" was just the end of one leveling process and the start of others. Most MMO's are built this way, often providing all kinds of progressive grinds, even if not directly called "levels" they are for all mechanical sense, just more levels to the game.

Now what do you get if at some point you remove these levels, you remove these grinds?

Well you end up with either something Second Life, which is purely a social game, the whole game is devoid of levels, so all it is, is purely exploration, building, social, and economics. If that was what you were looking for, there is no point to put in pointless preemptive grind to get to this point, and it's better to simply build or play a game like this from the start.

For the players that are competitive, like combat, but also do not want to deal with any kind of Grind, you have games like Apex Legends, or Overwatch, which is all about the thrill of the fight and combat, with none of the pesky grind leading up to it.

In the end, an MMORPG is a game that is about the journey, this is why they often have endlessly progressive systems designed around the accumulation of character power, and all other facets of the game, are driven by that motive.

IE: Dungeons are done for the rewards, not for the enjoyment, or social, or what have you, they are done mainly for the rewards.

GW2, proved this, when they opted to remove Dungeons from their game, and were looking to move players away from them, they simply nerfed the rewards and the vast majority of dungeon runs died overnight.

So if at some point, a player was to truly max out their character, chances are they would stop playing, take a break, till the next expansion.. which.. is why games put out expansions, and there is always a surge of players returning to the game, to make to the new highest level, to max out their characters once again.

So.. what happens really, to players once they Max Out in a game.. they take a break, sometimes they move on to other games, sometimes they just stop playing altogether.

Very few, will stay around and grind for the sake of grinding, which is why MMORPG's become once you have maxed out, pointless worthless grind for the sake of grind.

Does this answer your question?

That's a detailed answer and a fine job.
But the fact seems to be that most players do stop playing at some point after maxing out levels.
You show some good stuff in this post, but it doesn't seem to work.

Quizzical · June 2019

Amaranthar said:
But the fact seems to be that most players do stop playing at some point before maxing out levels.

Fixed that for you. The overwhelming majority of players who pick up a given game won't get that far into it. If developers could get half of the people who picked up their game to stick with it all the way to the level cap and then immediately quit, that would be a huge victory unless you hit the level cap almost immediately

SavageHorizon · June 2019

Amaranthar said:

Just a question, but do you see any possibility of alternate game play that might keep you in an MMORPG after reaching max level/skill?

Economics, building, exploration WITH discoveries of new things, etc.?

These things should happen through out the game not at max level. So you want the real game to start at max level?

Amaranthar · June 2019

Quizzical said:

Amaranthar said:
But the fact seems to be that most players do stop playing at some point before maxing out levels.

Fixed that for you. The overwhelming majority of players who pick up a given game won't get that far into it. If developers could get half of the people who picked up their game to stick with it all the way to the level cap and then immediately quit, that would be a huge victory unless you hit the level cap almost immediately

Good point.

blamo2000 · June 2019

Amaranthar said:

That's a detailed answer and a fine job.
But the fact seems to be that most players do stop playing at some point after maxing out levels.
You show some good stuff in this post, but it doesn't seem to work.

This isn't the whole picture. I am posting on this site now because I have no game to play. My brother-in-law played WoW and only wow since like 05/06 until a couple years ago. He then played that battle royal game from the EQ people until he switched to unknown player. He has played that since (I think, when he switched to playing non-rpgs I stopped paying attention to the drivel he has to say about games).

Plenty of people absolutely hate leveling and want to focus on the gameplay aspect they do enjoy, hence the popularity of MOBAs and BRs, etc. Plenty of people only enjoy max level and raiding in an mmorpg.

This site has a large mix of different kinds of players, but it seems it is mostly casual players that hop from the current big deal game of the moment to the next regardless of genre. You also have very niche players like me who likes a small number of very specific games for very specific reasons. There are people here who focus on pvp sandbox mmos or survival games, etc.

How may people here skipped this thread because it had level in the title and they don't play games with a leveling system? How many people that posted, like me, would have never seen this post if they had an interesting game to play right now?

I'm not saying you got bad data - you just got very incomplete data from a small subset of people. I've also noticed over the years that a lot game players don't really put a ton of thought into what they actually want and like. Its like asking a female what she looks for in a guy - her answers rarely matches they guys she actually dates, so there is what they think they like evrsus what they actually like.

I'd be interested if someone made a poll asking these same people how long they ever played end-game of an mmo. I am willing to bet people who said they stop playing at max played at least one game at max level for a good amount of time. Two months, six months, one year, two years, etc. Data works better when you can move away from opinion and capture actual behavior/actions.

Howdy, Stranger!

After Max Level

Comments

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey

Howdy, Stranger!

Quick Links

After Max Level

Comments

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey