"Streamlining" or in reality removing content from MMOs does not automatically make for a better game, nor does making games ever easier; both of which were behind these design changes.
Reducing depth and the number of skills is never a good thing. Even if there are redundancies, it is better to change that redundancy into something new than to chip away at the skill pool. WoW isn't the only game that needs to learn that.
Its one of the reasons I dont really like ESO combat, too few skills, and those too few skills are split between "weapon swaps".
ESO was a bit different I ran around 16-20 key bids including lotion pops.
Don’t get me wrong it wasn’t BC WoW, but it’s much closer to this than gw2
Everyone was saying it felt like they wanted to push this onto consoles when they dropped your usable skills down to basically 4, go figure. Maybe something has happened now an they can't put the game on consoles after all. Would laugh my ass off if that were truly the case, that one of the plans was to push to consoles for that new market of console gamers an now the game will not run on the newer consoles because of the way it is coded.
Blizzard is it's own worst enemy these days to be honest. They tend to pick groups to cater to at random an then do everything in their power to screw up everything. Feels like there are different groups all saying this is what we need, no this is what we need an they randomly pick from the pool within their own dev pools.
Classic will hit Blizzard devs like a truck, I'm telling ya. A lot of lessons learned.
Hazzikostas even admitted that, because they've been playing Classic, retail devs see that the pruning and moving of abilities has been too drastic. It's already having an effect. Now, that doesn't mean they'll bring back skill trees and the bloated ability bars that were present in Cata and Mists, but it may mean a reversal of some of the more catastrophic ability pruning.
I wish they kick melee Surv Hunter to the curb and bring back what it was. That's an example of a spec that has nothing in common with the class. If they want melee pet classes, make a new mail armor using class with Tank, DPS, Healing specs based off pets.
this "restoration" project of Classic has the added benefit of teaching current WoW devs what good game design means. Let's hope they make good use of what they've learned.
Classic will hit Blizzard devs like a truck, I'm telling ya. A lot of lessons learned.
Hazzikostas even admitted that, because they've been playing Classic, retail devs see that the pruning and moving of abilities has been too drastic. It's already having an effect. Now, that doesn't mean they'll bring back skill trees and the bloated ability bars that were present in Cata and Mists, but it may mean a reversal of some of the more catastrophic ability pruning.
I wish they kick melee Surv Hunter to the curb and bring back what it was. That's an example of a spec that has nothing in common with the class. If they want melee pet classes, make a new mail armor using class with Tank, DPS, Healing specs based off pets.
That's the real thing that's been worrying, Suzie. They honestly haven't really 'developed' anything since WoD if you want to be realistic about it. WoD added 4 passives that augmented existing abilities/other passives while guaranteeing a new row of talents. Legion then removed all of those passives, glyph system, and altered/removed existing passives/abilities to be moved into the artifact, legendary and pvp ability system (because everyone knows honor amongst thieves passive was better as a pvp talent obvious than pve.....wtf Ion....dont even get me started on my aoe freeze for frost dk, still pisses me off that its pvp only).
People will argue that they 'created' Demon Hunter in Legion, but one of the specs was essentially demonology without the pets....is that really creativity to remove a staple way of play from one class just form a new class? Ironically, demonology has been redone twice now and its still garbage. Is it fun? Sure. But from a damage perspective it just doesn't work.
I mean how many chances does Ion really need until its time to consider someone else? We're 3 expansions in with this game and he's already trying to change this game more than ghostcrawler, who was infamously the most hated dev prior. Unfortunately, even with ghostcrawler, at least the game made more sense than it does now, like actually getting stuff when you level. FREAKING SERIOUSLY HOW DID ANYONE THINK IT WAS A GOOD IDEA TO MAKE YOU LEVEL 20 LEVELS AND GIVE YOU NOTHING.....? This way of thinking is why people are leaving wow for other games, not because the other games are just superior. So darn agrivating because people just want the game to make sense, not be a long winded version of diablo meets moba.
It honestly feels like watching your old childhood home just get vandalized by new owners just because they can do it.
I don't understand how this guy has managed to keep his job this long. He's a failure in my eyes, managing to turn gold into shit. Giving players everything they did not want nor ask for. Suddenly he's listening to players, smh.
I would imagine its all about money and every expansion is a cash cow. It's just like the Madden football series. Every year EA seems to make the game a little worse in some way pissing off fans more & more yet they continue to keep the same people in place making the same old decisions, Why ? Because the game is a cash cow. Hell even the NFL has turned a blind eye to the fans and continues will continue to renew the wonderful Exclusivity deal which is the only real reason people continue to buy their bullshit.
Its the same with WOW , It makes money. In any job You could be the worst boss in the world loathed by customers & or fans but if you produce the numbers corporate suits will keep you in place.
Blizzard killed the game when they made classes one dimensional. There is little or no diversity within classes. It has become the worst MMO out there because of this.
I for one am not a fan of skill bloat where I have 40+ skills on my hot bars with 10 or so that feel like they have one specific situation that feels shoehorned into a boss fight every 3 or 4 expansions (or I totally forget to use because I have no muscle memory to EVER use them).
However, I don't like the oversimplification of classes/specs now either. They have never really been able to find a balance very well, but I of course loved WOTLK days. I think I would take a slight skill bloat and more complex skill trees over cookie cutter builds with zero chance to hybrid, and a 1-5 skill rotation + CDs. I would really love warrior stances to become a thing again. Let me shield swap for spell reflects and other interesting things!
Almost one year too late. Is..kinda fine however. Admitting that you were wrong is always good.
Anyway , I said one month after BfA launch, that WoW's next expansion will be the one bringing ...WoW back, or burry it! 2 fail expansions in a raw and WoW will become a "niche" game .
1 year? you're giving them credit, I've felt this way for nearly 7 (since MoP)
Classic will hit Blizzard devs like a truck, I'm telling ya. A lot of lessons learned.
What you wrote has me worried though just a little bit for one reason only...
1. Even if classic is extremely popular and successful will they shut it down out of bitterness cause they want people to play live then give some BS reason as the excuse for the closure. If classic in some way threatens the future of live I have no doubt they'll close it. I'm hoping the money coming in from players who haven't given them money in years will prevent that shenanigans from ever happening.
WoW classic can be it's own merchandise machine though separate from live seeing as they now seem to be heavily into that stuff. They can market them as two separate entities. Classic with more of a niche cult like appeal and live as the more bubbly mainstream option.
I wouldn't worry.
If classic is, as you say, popular and successful - and therefore makes money - they won't close it down. That isn't the way companies work. And, for better or worse, the WoW devs don't have the final say.
True, it's not just about the number of buttons. Everything in the game has been too simplified. I don't have confidence they can add that back into the game in any satisfying way or form. There are more than 20 years of gaming history laying there in an open book. If only they knew how to read.
The crazy part is that the Classic forum has been infested by the same people directly responsible for destroying retail making the same demands and spouting the same gibberish as Ghost Crawler and his lackey's pre-Cataclysm, on how the talent trees suck and the rpg systems are too complex and adds nothing, etc.
These people just won't stop. I wish they would just stick to MMOs and leave mmorpgs alone. You have the end result of your homogenization and simplification in MMOs- no classes, no rpg systems, no anything but better gear. I wish they would just be happy they won everything and have almost every game made for them - just leave the little sliver we have left alone.
Pleasing shareholders and getting Twitch views is what the genre has regressed to. The core philosophies of what made the genre fun and engaging to, you know the people that enjoyed and helped it grow, aren't important.
Watching Blizzard bumble their way through game development is like seeing a childhood hero become a drunken hobo. You secretly hope that things will get better, but deep down you realize that the odds of that happening are pretty fucking slim.
AN' DERE AIN'T NO SUCH FING AS ENUFF DAKKA, YA GROT! Enuff'z more than ya got an' less than too much an' there ain't no such fing as too much dakka. Say dere is, and me Squiggoff'z eatin' tonight!
We are born of the blood. Made men by the blood. Undone by the blood. Our eyes are yet to open. FEAR THE OLD BLOOD.
Classic will hit Blizzard devs like a truck, I'm telling ya. A lot of lessons learned.
I just hope they learn the right lessons.
They ARE going to want to build on the Classic model (again) when it proves to be popular and when a lot of players chew through the original content. Growing characters past that point is going to be a delicate process, and growing the world again (with new zones) would be a flat-out error. If they take the lazy route and just follow the original expansion route with Burning Crusade, etc, it will be proof that they are incapable of learning from mistakes.
I hope they take Classic as an opportunity to grow the game in a way that doesn't betray the best parts of it.
Now they just need to remember what made WoW amazing was the journey not the end game.
Hoping classic will show that.
The end game is what made WoW amazing. It never had much of a journey. It came onto the market competing with EQ and EQ2, and EQ2 had far less rapid leveling and far more quest and overland content compared to WoW - with much better character development and roleplay possibilities. That was never Wow's strength, IMO. The franchise just gave them a huge leg up, and it was very casual friendly. This is why they have been catering so hard to that market...
Compare EQ2 mythical with WoW artifacts. EQ did epics/mythical better, a decade ahead of WoW. The lore behind d artifacts was barely fleshed out. They took an hour to get, and the It was just a boring xp grind - an endless one...
This development team just has no idea what they're doing re: managing this. SOE had technically inept developers for EQ2...
Comments
I don't think it's a matter of "them figuring it out", but a matter of "the guys up above finally taking it to heart".
And yeah, seeing is believing
ESO was a bit different I ran around 16-20 key bids including lotion pops.
Don’t get me wrong it wasn’t BC WoW, but it’s much closer to this than gw2
I wish they kick melee Surv Hunter to the curb and bring back what it was. That's an example of a spec that has nothing in common with the class. If they want melee pet classes, make a new mail armor using class with Tank, DPS, Healing specs based off pets.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Its the same with WOW , It makes money. In any job You could be the worst boss in the world loathed by customers & or fans but if you produce the numbers corporate suits will keep you in place.
Aloha Mr Hand !
r/wooosh!
lol seriously though I was being sarcastic :P
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
However, I don't like the oversimplification of classes/specs now either. They have never really been able to find a balance very well, but I of course loved WOTLK days. I think I would take a slight skill bloat and more complex skill trees over cookie cutter builds with zero chance to hybrid, and a 1-5 skill rotation + CDs. I would really love warrior stances to become a thing again. Let me shield swap for spell reflects and other interesting things!
1 year? you're giving them credit, I've felt this way for nearly 7 (since MoP)
If classic is, as you say, popular and successful - and therefore makes money - they won't close it down. That isn't the way companies work. And, for better or worse, the WoW devs don't have the final say.
These people just won't stop. I wish they would just stick to MMOs and leave mmorpgs alone. You have the end result of your homogenization and simplification in MMOs- no classes, no rpg systems, no anything but better gear. I wish they would just be happy they won everything and have almost every game made for them - just leave the little sliver we have left alone.
AN' DERE AIN'T NO SUCH FING AS ENUFF DAKKA, YA GROT! Enuff'z more than ya got an' less than too much an' there ain't no such fing as too much dakka. Say dere is, and me Squiggoff'z eatin' tonight!
We are born of the blood. Made men by the blood. Undone by the blood. Our eyes are yet to open. FEAR THE OLD BLOOD.
#IStandWithVic
I just hope they learn the right lessons.
They ARE going to want to build on the Classic model (again) when it proves to be popular and when a lot of players chew through the original content. Growing characters past that point is going to be a delicate process, and growing the world again (with new zones) would be a flat-out error. If they take the lazy route and just follow the original expansion route with Burning Crusade, etc, it will be proof that they are incapable of learning from mistakes.
I hope they take Classic as an opportunity to grow the game in a way that doesn't betray the best parts of it.
The end game is what made WoW amazing. It never had much of a journey. It came onto the market competing with EQ and EQ2, and EQ2 had far less rapid leveling and far more quest and overland content compared to WoW - with much better character development and roleplay possibilities. That was never Wow's strength, IMO. The franchise just gave them a huge leg up, and it was very casual friendly. This is why they have been catering so hard to that market...
Compare EQ2 mythical with WoW artifacts. EQ did epics/mythical better, a decade ahead of WoW. The lore behind d artifacts was barely fleshed out. They took an hour to get, and the It was just a boring xp grind - an endless one...
This development team just has no idea what they're doing re: managing this. SOE had technically inept developers for EQ2...