Not enough tedium?

tunda · May 2006

Now I know that the saying is "More fun, less tedium" but part of being a hero is tedium! you'll have to take walks through forests, deserts, and mountains if you want to save the world! Other wise even if everybody has their own story line it still will be to easy! So what I am basically afraid of is this game becoming the "skilless" game. Where all you do is walk around killing things, for me part of the fun is building up the momentum to a big battle or finally completing a long quest. But if the team focuses on talking too much tedium out of it wont it be fairly boring?

Faemus · May 2006

Originally posted by tunda
Now I know that the saying is "More fun, less tedium" but part of being a hero is tedium! you'll have to take walks through forests, deserts, and mountains if you want to save the world! Other wise even if everybody has their own story line it still will be to easy! So what I am basically afraid of is this game becoming the "skilless" game. Where all you do is walk around killing things, for me part of the fun is building up the momentum to a big battle or finally completing a long quest. But if the team focuses on talking too much tedium out of it wont it be fairly boring?

http://merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tedium
One entry found for tedium.
Main Entry: te·di·um
Pronunciation: 'tE-dE-&m
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin taedium disgust, irksomeness, from taedEre to disgust, weary
1 : the quality or state of being tedious : TEDIOUSNESS; also : BOREDOM
2 : a tedious period of time <long tediums of strained anxiety -- H. G. Wells>

I have to respectfully disagree that part of being a hero is tedium, and I think you may be confusing "tedium" with "challenge". And while i share your sentiment that this game shouldn't be skilless and totally Easy, I think it would be a mistake to make it Tedious/Boring.

Morneblade · May 2006

Originally posted by Faemus

Originally posted by tunda
Now I know that the saying is "More fun, less tedium" but part of being a hero is tedium! you'll have to take walks through forests, deserts, and mountains if you want to save the world! Other wise even if everybody has their own story line it still will be to easy! So what I am basically afraid of is this game becoming the "skilless" game. Where all you do is walk around killing things, for me part of the fun is building up the momentum to a big battle or finally completing a long quest. But if the team focuses on talking too much tedium out of it wont it be fairly boring?

http://merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tedium
One entry found for tedium.
Main Entry: te·di·um
Pronunciation: 'tE-dE-&m
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin taedium disgust, irksomeness, from taedEre to disgust, weary
1 : the quality or state of being tedious : TEDIOUSNESS; also : BOREDOM
2 : a tedious period of time <long tediums of strained anxiety -- H. G. Wells>

I have to respectfully disagree that part of being a hero is tedium, and I think you may be confusing "tedium" with "challenge". And while i share your sentiment that this game shouldn't be skilless and totally Easy, I think it would be a mistake to make it Tedious/Boring.

Bingo. I hear SO man people (mostly the EQ/Vanguard crowds) equating tedious gameplay with challenge when it is SO far from the truth. Tedium is dull, boring work. Challenge makes you sweat and gets your adenaline surging through your veins. Taking 2 weeks to get a lvl in EQ is not a challenge, it was a way to artificially make you play the game longer.It wasn't hard, just freakin' dull. In CoH, the respec quest was "challenging" It made you think on your feet, and things happened VERY quickly, one wrong move could wipe out your party in seconds, but at he same time you made progress quickly if you were on your game. That, was skill. Come out of it sweating, literally screaming YES! Instead of after a 14 hour raid, "thank god, it's finally over, now I can go to bed".

Theper · May 2006

I think what this boils down to is how you want to play. A friend and I duoed in EQ2 by grinding our way to 50 (when it was the cap). It was mostly tedium - pull mob, kill mob.. pull mob, kill mob. This really doesn't offer much in the way of adventure or heroism. Another friend of mine did absolutely any quest he could get his hands on, most of it soloed (granted he played a pet class facilitating this). He also reached 50, albeit somewhat later than me in the duo. Looking back on things, he probably had alot more fun and immersion than I had. However, there is some "tedium" as you put it necessary i think to becoming a hero. How many heros do you think just picked up a sword and became legendary? I'm willing to venture it took many years of blood and sweat. On that note, I don't think becoming a "high level" should be particularly easy, but neither should tedium dominate. Questing should be important, perhaps with some quests geared on justifying going out and increasing your proficiency.

HJ-Tigkoly · May 2006

The "tedium" we are referring to is the concept that many games these days require. For example to become a master leather worker in most games would require you to make 50 chest pieces that are exactly alike, then make 50 leggings that are exactly alike, then make an advanced chest piece 75 times, etc..... Yes you may be stoked when you finally achieve master leatherworker status. You also may have become bored silly along the way. I mean how fun is is to create 5,000 items that you just turn around and sell to the vendor in order to level? How much fun is it when you see that as a master leatherworker, which you just spent 300 hours in game to achieve, you are able to make the exact same things as every other master leather worker in the universe???? Now that is what we describe as "tedious".

Morneblade · May 2006

Most certainly! As well, as "needing" to constantly "grind" for exp because it is the best way to advance. I hope the focus and the path of least resistence is with questing., not camping a spawn and pull-kill-rinse-repeat

hj-sylveria · May 2006

We are hoping that the need to travel from place to place doesn't get voted into a "tedium" category; the screenshots do no justice to the visual beauty of this game. Yes, there'll be forests and mountains and glens. Yes, you'll have to see them more than once. But they are merely a backdrop to the adventures you'll make for yourself!

Repetitiveness is also not necessarily tedious. If your reason for having to stand there and craft "small metal rivets" has no meaning, then the exercise is boring.

So let me ask what you think of this: Imagine that those rivets are critical to the building of a mega war machine. Imagine that your guild, your clan, your neighborhood, is lost if you cannot deliver enough of them on time. You have two days...they need 10,000 widgets. Does this equate with tedium?

Morneblade · May 2006

I don't think Travel will get voted in the tedium catagory unless it takes 15-30 min. to get to everywhere. Then yes, that would suck, because then your looking at trying to get people together, and having to wait for a hour to get everyone there. Yeah, that is not a really fun game demographic.

And as for the 10,000 widget.....I would probably shoot myself. I'm about as anti crafing a human being as you will find in a MMO. I mean, I run from it like it was the plague, So, the thought of 10,000 widgets is like, worse than tedium, more like torture.

hj-sylveria · May 2006

Hehe. Okay, you can be the guy who slays 10,000 woogoos instead

Kuzzle · May 2006

I love crafting!... Which is why it makes me a little sad that this game all but does away with it completely. I understand what the OP meant, though. I don't really agree with it, but, you know...

Anyway, as for the person who said something about how few people just 'pick up a sword and become a hero', or something... I mean, it seems that happens in a lot of console games. To me, at least. Anyway, what makes a hero is simply the act of rising to the situation when no one else can. Raising a hand when an injustice has been done and calling out. Not letting the strong destroy the weak. This, in my opinion, doesn't take very long. In fact, it can take as little as a few moments to become a hero. Let not injustice prosper, for if you do, the meek shall perish, and you shall fall to take their place... Hmm... That seems like something I might've heard somewhere, but I don't remember. It's possible that I just thought of it, but it's not the type of thing I'd like to take credit for, as it seems like something someone would already have stated.

Morneblade · May 2006

Originally posted by hj-sylveria

Hehe. Okay, you can be the guy who slays 10,000 woogoos instead

Gimme my Swords and Bow, I'm all over it!

Morneblade · May 2006

Originally posted by hj-sylveria

Hehe. Okay, you can be the guy who slays 10,000 woogoos instead

Doh, double post

Wallsmar · May 2006

Originally posted by Morneblade

Originally posted by hj-sylveria

Hehe. Okay, you can be the guy who slays 10,000 woogoos instead

Gimme my Swords and Bow, I'm all over it!

Now, if you could only find a crafter to make you that spiffy sword =p

Morneblade · May 2006

Yeah, another thing I don't like about crafting. Crafters having gobs of cash while 'im scrapping by. I always viewed them as a 'neccasary evil" in games that have robust crafting systems. But it looks like I won't have to worry much about that, as I'll be starting out with everything I need, and weapons/armor/trinkets look to be upgraded rather than having to get better and better stuff.

YAY.

I'm not into games so geared to.......gear being the end all and be all of your character.

Maladak · May 2006

hmmm I must be playing my crafters wrong because I'm broke no matter what class I am

Morneblade · May 2006

Well, you should have seen Sabor in HZ, he was buying land and building houses at lvl 20, and I was lvl 56. Of course, he had like 5 or 6 Excel spreadsheets for all his crafting, which starts to sound alot more like work than fun......

Valendros · May 2006

Some posters, I think, are confusing time with tedium. Yes, it takes a lot of time to become a powerful hero. But that time probably isn't spent practicing making 500 "small black rivets". You don't get powerful by killing a 500 ravenous sheep in an hour. You get good at killing ravenous sheep. You get more skill by learning anatomy, increasing your strength, your agility, your dexterity. Getting to know your weapon and other weapons would help you in inflicting damage on your enemy. You also have to learn to be empathetic, passionate, dedicated, to take up a cause.

There are a lot of things that make a hero powerful and all these things could take time and practice. But is it better to practice in a room doing the same thing over and over and over and over, sitting out in the field and killing the same mob over and over and over and over? Or would you learn more quickly and become more powerful by finding somebody in need, and helping them. In the method of you helping them, that might cause you to make 1000 widgets to help construct a battle tower to protect a town, or kill 50 minions of the guy holding the person's son hostage or killing all their cows or holding the town for ransom.

In this way, for helping somebody out you get fame, experience, maybe some treasure, but I don't know if it would be boring. It might be more boring for you than sitting in your house making 1000 widgets for no reason, but it wouldn't be for me.

"More Fun, Less Tedium" to me means to me that everything you do, you do for a good solid reason. And maybe it takes a bit less "point, click, point, click" than it would in other games. All-in-all you would spend probably about the same amount of time doing it to get great, but it would be more spread out, you'd have a good cause for doing it, and probably a reward (other than the craft experience) when you were done.

It is really easy to give the player a choice to solo level grind, group level grind, group quest, or solo quest. Just average out the experience and give a slight advantage to group and slight advantage to quest. That way people are more likely to quest, and more likely to group, but solo would still be perfectly viable while only slightly less advantageous. If there is no advantage to group or quest, people won't do it unless they are getting bored.

Morneblade · May 2006

I certainly agree with the last part of your post, having grouping and questing giving better rewards towards advancing your character. Questing seems to be less effective in most games, which is why people "grind". That and "endgame" content is what many (not most, or all) people want to get to quickly, because lower-midgame content tends to be "filler" in most games. Also, games that make a point to try artificially drag a game out (EQ), yeah, complete tedium. Only reason they do it is to get people to pay for the game longer. Honestly, I'm at a point in my life where I don't really want to or can play a game 5 hours a night for 6 months to get to the endgame the way it's set up in most. I guess we will see what HJ has in store.

HJ-DEZORIN · May 2006

The "less tedium" thing refers mostly to the grind, and as some of my fellow GMs have pointed out, taking out the "manufacturing" aspects of things like crafting. The focus will be on crafting items being more unique than we've come to expect from "crafting" systems in MMOs. If you're a known craftsman of a particular trade, you will be sought after for your creations. But not in the "looking for 300 blacksmith" sense.

Morneblade · May 2006

Ok, what about combat exp? Am I going to be grinding away for months, ala EQ? If so, as much as I like about the game, I"ll probably pass on HJ and just not play anything. I dont have much time to play, and if that is what I'm looking at, I"ll be wasting my time.

Techleo · May 2006

I like a level system where you can level gradually over 3 or 4 months to the point you enter the global arena of huge goals. At which point leveling suddenly slows down and you shift to a more long term goal shceme. Such as organizing national wars and being a politican. Rather then small battles and goals. This means you have a reason to keep playing the game for perhaps years. The issue is you need a very good infrastructure of guild control and missions. Such that these ubber players feel busy and important. Very tricky balance.

HJ-Sisca · May 2006

Originally posted by Morneblade
Ok, what about combat exp? Am I going to be grinding away for months, ala EQ? If so, as much as I like about the game, I"ll probably pass on HJ and just not play anything. I dont have much time to play, and if that is what I'm looking at, I"ll be wasting my time.

The real reason for feeling like you have to grind to max level is that most games have all of the coolest stuff built for those levels. Even the original EQ1, before the expansions or even before the planes opened up there were the 2 dragons, Naggy & Vox, and they were only beatable by large numbers of level 50 characters.

Everyone that plays a fantasy based game wants a shot at killing the dragon, it's been a staple of fantasy since The Hobbit. So if only max level characters can do that then you feel that you have to just grind to get to max level so you can do the cool part.

What we're hoping to accomplish, with quests and even world zones, is to have cool parts for your entire career. A party of level 50 hero's might be able to hold off the Ukar army outside of a large town but a party of level 5's could protect the wagons bringing supplies from a bunch of Ukar raiders and both encounters could be really cool.

The idea, and the challenge for us GM's, is to make the journey to 50 the cool part not what happens once you get there.

Morneblade · May 2006

Ok, that is good to hear. Now that being said, if you could compare the quickness of the planned leveling curve to a exsisting game, what would it be?

Anofalye · May 2006

Originally posted by HJ-Sisca The real reason for feeling like you have to grind to max level is that most games have all of the coolest stuff built for those levels. Even the original EQ1, before the expansions or even before the planes opened up there were the 2 dragons, Naggy & Vox, and they were only beatable by large numbers of level 50 characters.

The first 50ish in EQ, in a vast majority, left the game without killing the dragons.

Your argument is good and valid...but it obviously doesn't apply on the peoples who actually looove to level up...and even in old EQ, many just love to level up and left...with a bitter taste at the wrong ending if they are like me! Some were nicer however...but to start new games and to know they would not reach the top in a old game ala EQ...hehe, anyway...

_Shadowmage · May 2006

Quote - "What we're hoping to accomplish, with quests and even world zones, is to have cool parts for your entire career. A party of level 50 hero's might be able to hold off the Ukar army outside of a large town but a party of level 5's could protect the wagons bringing supplies from a bunch of Ukar raiders and both encounters could be really cool"

His argument is great. For people who like to level up - there will be exciting, interesting, challenging things to do at every level, instead of go kill mob A 5 bazillion times.

So they are making the journey fun.

Amathe · May 2006

Originally posted by HJ-Sisca

The real reason for feeling like you have to grind to max level is that most games have all of the coolest stuff built for those levels. Even the original EQ1, before the expansions or even before the planes opened up there were the 2 dragons, Naggy & Vox, and they were only beatable by large numbers of level 50 characters.

Everyone that plays a fantasy based game wants a shot at killing the dragon, it's been a staple of fantasy since The Hobbit. So if only max level characters can do that then you feel that you have to just grind to get to max level so you can do the cool part.

What we're hoping to accomplish, with quests and even world zones, is to have cool parts for your entire career. A party of level 50 hero's might be able to hold off the Ukar army outside of a large town but a party of level 5's could protect the wagons bringing supplies from a bunch of Ukar raiders and both encounters could be really cool.

The idea, and the challenge for us GM's, is to make the journey to 50 the cool part not what happens once you get there.

Finally, a company that understands! Woooot!

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