Back in the late 90's and even very early 00's the net was filled with geeks. Many of us were tabletop gamers and enjoyed complexity and depth... The games were not necessarily 'better' but they were different and we thought the evolution of the mmorpg would continue in the same direction.
Within a few years the net went mainstream. It changed everything including mmorpgs which could capture far more money and a far greater audience by courting the new mainstream user. Each year the people like us became less and less of a % of the internet and we were forgotten.
=(
QQ
All true, but this was directed at the individual, I assuming someone like yourself, who still looks fondly on the old school MMO's but does not play them anymore. Many are still around.
Man, I can't help but put in my two cents on these threads.. I couldn't vote on your post because the reason why I don't play old school games isn't listed. The reason for me is none of them have new content and still exist in their original form. They've all changed to try and be more like modern MMOs or they've introduced features that have upset the fundamental fun gameplay it once had. .
Ummm... you contradicted yourself. They still exist in their original form, but they've all changed?
Maybe I misunderstand you. The last sentence though would clearly put you with this vote:
"My favorite old school MMO(s) went in a direction I did not like"
Old school mmos were never popular, is the thing. They actually kept most gamers out of the market due to the steep requirements to play.
Have less then 2-3hrs to play at once... do not
bother even logging in. Remember that phrase. Was a common saying.
Taking 9-12 months of constant play to hit level cap. Needing 3-6 players to even get anything done. Killing a boss
with 30+ ppl, competing against 120 others for the claim for it to drop
1-3 things. 0.1% Drop rates on BIS gear from a boss that spawns once a day.
It is why WoW became so huge. It was the first really solid AAA mmo to open the doors to
the casual gamer, thus instant mass popularity as no other mmo targeted
the mass audience. Once they got the market share of that audience they were king and they are still living off the residual of that mass population even with the last several utterly trash expansions they released.
With that said I enjoyed being in a non-p2w group/guild centric game that has so much progression in it that it literally never got boring even if I put in 60hrs a week. Something that has not existed now in almost 8yrs. If they were to make a modern mmo in terms of graphics, character design, and updated combat system with the mentality of an older game I would probably play it in a heart beat.
I disagree with the audience changing over time, there are still just as many people as before that are in the same mindsets.
No one targets the oldschool audience anymore because it is not as profitable. Think about it target an audience of 4-5 million or target an audience of 50+ million. Would you make a game for pc or phone? considering phones have probably 20xs the userbase you would be stupid to make a pc game right? You know, We all have phones right? Change is brought on by $$$, game devs will follow the money.
Back in the day a sub count of 150k+ was considered wildly successful remember that. FFXI hitting its peak of 600k subs made it one of the most played mmo in the world even surpassing EQ. But now development cost have went through the roof that would be considered subpar, unsustainable almost. Games being made for 20-30mill now are considered AA, and feel either cheap, use horribly outdated graphics/animations, or simply lack content.
Example: EQ1 Cost about 3million to make, FFxi cost around 20million to make, WoW cost 53million, FFXIV cost around 150mill. You can see the cost to Develop a AAA mmo increase drastically over the years.
More cost means they need more players. Why would you target a less profitable audience.
Back in the late 90's and even very early 00's the net was filled with geeks. Many of us were tabletop gamers and enjoyed complexity and depth... The games were not necessarily 'better' but they were different and we thought the evolution of the mmorpg would continue in the same direction.
Within a few years the net went mainstream. It changed everything including mmorpgs which could capture far more money and a far greater audience by courting the new mainstream user. Each year the people like us became less and less of a % of the internet and we were forgotten.
=(
QQ
All true, but this was directed at the individual, I assuming someone like yourself, who still looks fondly on the old school MMO's but does not play them anymore. Many are still around.
Several reasons, really.
On a personal level I dont really play any mmorpgs these day- I find the survival genre (Empyrion, 7d2d,ark and such) to be closer to that 'living and breathing' world that used to be the domain of mmorpgs. Those games are not massive nor persistent (as in playing the same character for years in the same world) but they are almost better mmorpg's than most of the self proclaimed mmorpgs we have today- if that makes sense.
I've already played them all of the older game, either when they were released or more recently.
Secondly, they never evolved. There was a point of divergence where the entire genre moved away from my preference but what was left was stagnant.
Even back in the day, playing games like UO and Everquest-There were a myriad of faults and problems with those games which I had assumed would be addressed with technology and time. Sadly, we never really got those 'updates' since the genre changed .
Old school mmos were never popular, is the thing. They actually kept most gamers out of the market due to the steep requirements to play.
Have less then 2-3hrs to play at once... do not
bother even logging in. Remember that phrase. Was a common saying.
Taking 9-12 months of constant play to hit level cap. Needing 3-6 players to even get anything done. Killing a boss
with 30+ ppl, competing against 120 others for the claim for it to drop
1-3 things. 0.1% Drop rates on BIS gear from a boss that spawns once a day.
It is why WoW became so huge. It was the first really solid AAA mmo to open the doors to
the casual gamer, thus instant mass popularity as no other mmo targeted
the mass audience. Once they got the market share of that audience they were king and they are still living off the residual of that mass population even with the last several utterly trash expansions they released.
With that said I enjoyed being in a non-p2w group/guild centric game that has so much progression in it that it literally never got boring even if I put in 60hrs a week. Something that has not existed now in almost 8yrs. If they were to make a modern mmo in terms of graphics, character design, and updated combat system with the mentality of an older game I would probably play it in a heart beat.
I disagree with the audience changing over time, there are still just as many people as before that are in the same mindsets.
No one targets the oldschool audience anymore because it is not as profitable. Think about it target an audience of 4-5 million or target an audience of 50+ million. Would you make a game for pc or phone? considering phones have probably 20xs the userbase you would be stupid to make a pc game right? You know, We all have phones right? Change is brought on by $$$, game devs will follow the money.
Back in the day a sub count of 150k+ was considered wildly successful remember that. FFXI hitting its peak of 600k subs made it one of the most played mmo in the world even surpassing EQ. But now development cost have went through the roof that would be considered subpar, unsustainable almost. Games being made for 20-30mill now are considered AA, and feel either cheap, use horribly outdated graphics/animations, or simply lack content.
Example: EQ1 Cost about 3million to make, FFxi cost around 20million to make, WoW cost 53million, FFXIV cost around 150mill. You can see the cost to Develop a AAA mmo increase drastically over the years.
More cost means they need more players. Why would you target a less profitable audience.
No, they were niche back then. The question of popularity in this subject is being compared to today's MMO's, not PC gaming in general.
There is a lot of confusion so obviously I did not word something right. If old school MMO's were so much better why aren't more popular than the newer MMO's, why aren't you still playing them. That is pretty much it.
You are addressing the shift in the genre to what we have today, which is great, but not really related.
Man, I can't help but put in my two cents on these threads.. I couldn't vote on your post because the reason why I don't play old school games isn't listed. The reason for me is none of them have new content and still exist in their original form. They've all changed to try and be more like modern MMOs or they've introduced features that have upset the fundamental fun gameplay it once had. .
Ummm... you contradicted yourself. They still exist in their original form, but they've all changed?
Maybe I misunderstand you. The last sentence though would clearly put you with this vote:
"My favorite old school MMO(s) went in a direction I did not like"
I think they are saying that none of the old MMORPGs still exist in their original forms (non emulator state) since some of their "new content" tried to make them mainstream.
I agree with your assessment of their vote choice, though
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I think you would have to go back in time to make them interesting again. The culture has changed a lot since the time these games were released. Culture used to say that suffering through grinding and punishing content was a sign of character. The behavior was also very different because there was no real control on what people said despite what some people say. The general chat was filled with a lot more swearing and insults in the early days of MMOs. Those games can't work as well in modern day culture where philosophy on life has changed so much IMO. They can work, but it won't be like in the early days of people staying on for 2+ days straight to camp a mob. With all the information on the internet most people have filled their schedules up with other things to do they deem more important. Games were really at their height during those days in terms of having players that were really dedicated to gaming.
Old school mmos were never popular, is the thing. They actually kept most gamers out of the market due to the steep requirements to play.
...(insert wall of text here) ...
More cost means they need more players. Why would you target a less profitable audience.
Sadly, this is pretty much the truth. A successful old school MMOs might have had 100k subs. I think EQ capped out at around 250k at its peak. By today's standards, this is not considered successful.
A combination for sure. I think the biggest reason though is because the mainstream audience is not really looking for old games, so it is really difficult to replenish the ranks of older MMOs and keep them popular because people simply are looking for newer games. It is also the age. If you look at the age of gamers who played those kinds of games (Typically inbetween ages 33-43) the time available for them like they used to have just is not there. So they quit those old games as a result, opting for quicker session based games. It is also lack of modern features and lack of support from developers that rival that of modern MMOs (Older MMOs didn't have content patches for the most part, they mainly had small patches and expansions)
There is the "window shopper" mentality. You look at an older game and you think, how many people are playing this? it is pretty dated looking, do I really want to play this? i am so far behind at this point that i could never keep up,ect.... This just immediately turns people away. It is also a compounding problem because the older MMOs rely on friends to enjoy them since they are not as solo friendly, so if your friends aren't playing, you aren't playing.
This does not mean there is no room for a new game in the old style, as none have really been created yet to any exceptional degree. Hell, I would say that the first old school style MMO to sorta release in years is WoW classic, sadly. WoW classic isn't even old school enough for some people on these forums as to the kind of style they want. We have to look towards games like CU and Pantheon honestly if we hope for something like that. It doesn't mean this style of game can't be successful, it just has not really had a proper shot.
Umm just to point out that MANY of the older MMOS still have thousands of players. While most are no longer publishing player numbers a little research into investor reports can show that games like Anarchy Online and Everquest still have thousands and thousands of subscribers.
Umm just to point out that MANY of the older MMOS still have thousands of players. While most are no longer publishing player numbers a little research into investor reports can show that games like Anarchy Online and Everquest still have thousands and thousands of subscribers.
That may be so, but would you say that they are "popular?"
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
It's a simple concept, it's not about story, it's not about graphics. Although, polish does count pretty big...The real reason people played MMOs 20 years ago was because they were designed around a reward system that you had to work for.
If the rewards are just handed out for showing up, then that's all people will do......show up, get their reward and leave.
But in the older games, you had to log in and actually do shit.......imagine that.
It's a simple concept, it's not about story, it's not about graphics. Although, polish does count pretty big...The real reason people played MMOs 20 years ago was because they were designed around a reward system that you had to work for.
If the rewards are just handed out for showing up, then that's all people will do......show up, get their reward and leave.
But in the older games, you had to log in and actually do shit.......imagine that.
tl:dr games were games and not casual mobile stuff
Ancient graphics and animations, clunky UI. Classic WOW is the only Old School MMO which is still playable...just.
We need a modern EQ, DAOC, UO, SWG, AO and a new WoW with Classic mechanics.
Those games should cover the whole spectrum of the MMO universe. I don’t think we need any more than those. MMORPGs are a niche, they always meant to be.
Ancient graphics and animations, clunky UI. Classic WOW is the only Old School MMO which is still playable...just.
We need a modern EQ, DAOC, UO, SWG, AO and a new WoW with Classic mechanics.
Those games should cover the whole spectrum of the MMO universe. I don’t think we need any more than those. MMORPGs are a niche, they always meant to be.
I'd add AC, COH, EVE, SB, L1, FFXI to cover the full spectrum.
Here's the thing, not much chance of any of those being resurrected in the manner you suggest, spiritual successors is what might happen at best.
As I see it, here's the current comparison to date. (Going to need some help I think)
AC - Project Gorgon AO - COH - Ship of Heroes, City of Titans, Valance Online. DAOC - ESO, CU EQ1 - Pantheon, SOL EVE - FFXI - L1 - SB - Crowfall SWG - UO - SotA, Legends of Aria, others? WOW ‐ Classic
Can't quite figure if AOC, SC or Dual Universe fit in somewhere above, only in a small way if so probably.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I don't know if I would classify WoW as an old school MMO. I see it more as the beginning of the end. WoW is the MMO that new MMOs model themselves after to make money, not necessarily produce a good game.
Ancient graphics and animations, clunky UI. Classic WOW is the only Old School MMO which is still playable...just.
We need a modern EQ, DAOC, UO, SWG, AO and a new WoW with Classic mechanics.
Those games should cover the whole spectrum of the MMO universe. I don’t think we need any more than those. MMORPGs are a niche, they always meant to be.
I'd add AC, COH, EVE, SB, L1, FFXI to cover the full spectrum.
Here's the thing, not much chance of any of those being resurrected in the manner you suggest, spiritual successors is what might happen at best.
As I see it, here's the current comparison to date. (Going to need some help I think)
AC - Project Gorgon AO - COH - Ship of Heroes, City of Titans, Valance Online. DAOC - ESO, CU EQ1 - Pantheon, SOL EVE - FFXI - L1 - SB - Crowfall SWG - UO - SotA, Legends of Aria, others? WOW ‐ Classic
Can't quite figure if AOC, SC or Dual Universe fit in somewhere above, only in a small way if so probably.
Arcfall even in its Alpha state is a better representation of UO than LoA or SoTA
Repopulation , altho slow going has a solid experience underway nearest to SWG
I don't know if I would classify WoW as an old school MMO. I see it more as the beginning of the end. WoW is the MMO that new MMOs model themselves after to make money, not necessarily produce a good game.
This is correct. WoW may be "classic" by date in MMO standards, but when you look at the shift in the genre WoW made, that is where the distinction between classic and modern should be made. Prior to WoW MMORPGS were trying to figure out what they wanted to be with each on having their own take on it. Due to WoWs success with the masses everyone since has tried to replicate the success rather than create another shift or make their own mark in MMO history.
I don't know if I would classify WoW as an old school MMO. I see it more as the beginning of the end. WoW is the MMO that new MMOs model themselves after to make money, not necessarily produce a good game.
This is correct. WoW may be "classic" by date in MMO standards, but when you look at the shift in the genre WoW made, that is where the distinction between classic and modern should be made. Prior to WoW MMORPGS were trying to figure out what they wanted to be with each on having their own take on it. Due to WoWs success with the masses everyone since has tried to replicate the success rather than create another shift or make their own mark in MMO history.
Or alternatively way of look at it is... those other game aren't as successful as wow clone. That is why people stop making them...
There are crap load of unpopular mmorpg already... Just look at the mmorpg listed on this site.
Grant I understand it is a bit of unfair comparison because the games trying to mimic wow get larger budget.
Comments
Aloha Mr Hand !
All true, but this was directed at the individual, I assuming someone like yourself, who still looks fondly on the old school MMO's but does not play them anymore. Many are still around.
Ummm... you contradicted yourself. They still exist in their original form, but they've all changed?
Maybe I misunderstand you. The last sentence though would clearly put you with this vote:
"My favorite old school MMO(s) went in a direction I did not like"
More cost means they need more players. Why would you target a less profitable audience.
On a personal level I dont really play any mmorpgs these day- I find the survival genre (Empyrion, 7d2d,ark and such) to be closer to that 'living and breathing' world that used to be the domain of mmorpgs. Those games are not massive nor persistent (as in playing the same character for years in the same world) but they are almost better mmorpg's than most of the self proclaimed mmorpgs we have today- if that makes sense.
I've already played them all of the older game, either when they were released or more recently.
Secondly, they never evolved. There was a point of divergence where the entire genre moved away from my preference but what was left was stagnant.
Even back in the day, playing games like UO and Everquest-There were a myriad of faults and problems with those games which I had assumed would be addressed with technology and time. Sadly, we never really got those 'updates' since the genre changed .
No, they were niche back then. The question of popularity in this subject is being compared to today's MMO's, not PC gaming in general. There is a lot of confusion so obviously I did not word something right. If old school MMO's were so much better why aren't more popular than the newer MMO's, why aren't you still playing them. That is pretty much it. You are addressing the shift in the genre to what we have today, which is great, but not really related.
I agree with your assessment of their vote choice, though
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
what made you think they are not? ^^
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
GW2 already is 7 years old etc. Runescape 18 years?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
If the rewards are just handed out for showing up, then that's all people will do......show up, get their reward and leave.
But in the older games, you had to log in and actually do shit.......imagine that.
Ancient graphics and animations, clunky UI.
Classic WOW is the only Old School MMO which is still playable...just.
We need a modern EQ, DAOC, UO, SWG, AO and a new WoW with Classic mechanics.
Those games should cover the whole spectrum of the MMO universe.
I don’t think we need any more than those.
MMORPGs are a niche, they always meant to be.
Here's the thing, not much chance of any of those being resurrected in the manner you suggest, spiritual successors is what might happen at best.
As I see it, here's the current comparison to date. (Going to need some help I think)
AC - Project Gorgon
AO -
COH - Ship of Heroes, City of Titans, Valance Online.
DAOC - ESO, CU
EQ1 - Pantheon, SOL
EVE -
FFXI -
L1 -
SB - Crowfall
SWG -
UO - SotA, Legends of Aria, others?
WOW ‐ Classic
Can't quite figure if AOC, SC or Dual Universe fit in somewhere above, only in a small way if so probably.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
There are crap load of unpopular mmorpg already... Just look at the mmorpg listed on this site.
Grant I understand it is a bit of unfair comparison because the games trying to mimic wow get larger budget.