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Subscription only MMOs are pay to win and its good they mostly died out

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  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,534
    This thread is funny.. people praising people who are wrong.. funny stuff.
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • NorseGodNorseGod Member EpicPosts: 2,654
    Baalzharon said:
    People complain of BDO pay to win. Except you can play 100% free (well you had to buy it, but no forced sub) and buy most stuff on marketplace

    FFXIV? WoW? Both pay to win MMOs as two easy examples. In fact the only way to get the best gear or items is paying every month. You can't even begin to start winning without paying, and when you do pay it can take weeks or even months to get ahead or in WoW classic it took 1+ year

    That is the ultimate pay to win. Not only can you not even start to win without paying, you just can't do anything without paying. Often having to buy a 40-60 USD box price+buy the expansions. BDO? Pay optional besides the very cheap entry price and never worry again. Same with many other buy to play/f2p MMOs. 

    Its good the genre changed to be less pay to win and forcing the player to pay an obscene amount to play. BDO should however be 100% free, but its only 1 dollar or I saw it for 50 cents during black friday, literally on the cheapest sales if you get it from off-steam and the "shady" sites. pretty much free at that point.

    But still, GW2 got rid of its forced entry price and much better. GW2 dont have to pay anything not even latest expansion cause can earn money in game and then buy it with game money through gems (which I did for path of fire).

    These last hold out of pay to win sub MMOs are dying and its good, cause they are the ultimate example of pay to win.



    Scorchienkenguru23Vermillion_RaventhalPhaserlight[Deleted User]Steelhelm
    To talk about games without the censorship, check out https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,534
    Scorchien said:
    Ungood said:
    Scorchien said:
    Ungood said:
    Scorchien said:
    Ungood said:
    Scorchien said:
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Defining pay to win by being around a long time is silly because there was no pay to win except buying an account on ebay.  Pay to win has always been pay for advantages, relief of unnatural grinds or whatever unholy shit developers use to entice you into cash shops.  Don't pretend because you played EQ or whatever qualifies you as old school has any bearing on new school issue of cash shops and P2W.
    I'm going to scrape away your bullshit.

    And now, Hopefully, I will also scrape away your ignorance.

    P2W was in fact exactly that. That is why it had such a negative stigma.

    It was very common in PvP games, often passed off as "Strategy War Games" where you could go to the cash shop and but whatever you needed to kick the holy shit out of anyone, and no amount of skill, grind, friends, alliances, guilds, or anything else they possessed in game could save their sorry asses.. the only way they were going to counter was by paying cold hard cash in the shop to get what they needed to either defend, or kick your ass in return.

    Everyone's ass had a price tag on it, all a matter of how much you needed to spend to beat them, IE: Pay to Win.

    This is what gave the term P2W teeth, why it elicited such outrage. I mean think about that, can you imagine playing a PvP game where all your skill, time and effort was meaningless to someone that was willing to spend some money? And you know, I wish I was joking about this, but I played these games first hand, and it was as bad as it sounded.

    That is why people lost their shit when they heard that a game was P2W.

    That is not to be confused with the candyass waterdown term that people use today to mean "It has a cash shop" or "I just don't want to spend money" or some other nonsense that it has become obscured into.. down to people calling Cosmetics, Expansions.. and now.. Subs.. P2W.

    Even if you do not see things from my view.. at least appreciate the irony that this is to me.
    What MMORPG are you talking about?  Pay to Win is always pay for advantage.  Meaning, I got to cash shop and I have an advantage over you.  The degrees vary but that is the basis.  Whether a death sword or being unnaturally bad odds to upgrade. 

    ya know.. sometimes the truth is so obvious it hurts.. If it was always and only "Pay for Advantage" they would not have called it Pay to Win.

    So..  again...  the term was born in PvP Strategy Games (IE: Evony), not MMO's in fact the term never really had any place in MMO's (given how unbalanced they are anyway)... not even sure how it got there.. Oh right.. it got watered down to shit and people used it to mean anything they didn't want to spend money on.. 

    Oh, would you look at where we are now.. 
    naahhh , people were calling it P2W in UO in 98 when 7x Gm accts were going up for sale , along with the best gear ..Long before Evony and its ilk were a thing
    Oh the black market account sales? LOL, they were not called P2W.. ever.
    The certainly were , i was there , and thats what we called them ..
    So was I.. and no we didn't. 


    Thats odd , cause in this recent thread , you said ..

    "Anyway.. after my time in Full Loot Open World PvP MUDs, I was glad to move on to PvE only games, and not deal with that level of douchebaggery, which might be why I never got involved with UO."




     Fraud




    But those accounts (like many others of their ilk) were sold Outside the Game.. on an private auction house, for RMT, which did affect other games (like EQ, which I was actively playing at the time) and were the talk across all gaming forums, and they were not called P2W. 

    Anything else you want to be wrong about in this thread?
    You honestly are not worth arguing with as this community is becoming more and more aware of each time you post ..

     But yes , we discussed it alot in ICQ at the time and it was P2W , and oddly enough it was also very easy to pick out those players very fast ..

      Free to Play , Pay to Play ( AOL was commonly known as ) and Pay to Win were all phrases commonly used in the mid to late 90s into the early 2000 , then they caught more steam thru mid to late 2000s as the genre grew expotentionly

         im done here you keep on your self destructive rants the community has become accustomed to it , altho its painfully transparent and boring ..

       
        Anything else you want to lie about in this thread?
    I never lied, I was there the black market account sales.. I never said I played UO.

    But none the less.. That's a whole lot of words to say You can't take being Wrong.
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • UtinniUtinni Member EpicPosts: 2,209
    Tamanous said:
    Utinni said:
    Tamanous said:
    Troll post?  :#
    Personally I think it's the 6 paragraphs of overkill that is the real humor.
    He's pointing out the hilarity of how this community defines things. The reactions are actually proving his point.
    Thanks Captain Obvious.
    You seem upset. You even quoted yourself. Hope your day gets better.
    Ungood
  • CelciusCelcius Member RarePosts: 1,878
    Baalzharon said:
    People complain of BDO pay to win. Except you can play 100% free (well you had to buy it, but no forced sub) and buy most stuff on marketplace

    FFXIV? WoW? Both pay to win MMOs as two easy examples. In fact the only way to get the best gear or items is paying every month. You can't even begin to start winning without paying, and when you do pay it can take weeks or even months to get ahead or in WoW classic it took 1+ year

    That is the ultimate pay to win. Not only can you not even start to win without paying, you just can't do anything without paying. Often having to buy a 40-60 USD box price+buy the expansions. BDO? Pay optional besides the very cheap entry price and never worry again. Same with many other buy to play/f2p MMOs. 

    Its good the genre changed to be less pay to win and forcing the player to pay an obscene amount to play. BDO should however be 100% free, but its only 1 dollar or I saw it for 50 cents during black friday, literally on the cheapest sales if you get it from off-steam and the "shady" sites. pretty much free at that point.

    But still, GW2 got rid of its forced entry price and much better. GW2 dont have to pay anything not even latest expansion cause can earn money in game and then buy it with game money through gems (which I did for path of fire).

    These last hold out of pay to win sub MMOs are dying and its good, cause they are the ultimate example of pay to win.


    And yet, the top 2 MMOs are subscription based.
  • UtinniUtinni Member EpicPosts: 2,209
    Celcius said:
    Baalzharon said:
    People complain of BDO pay to win. Except you can play 100% free (well you had to buy it, but no forced sub) and buy most stuff on marketplace

    FFXIV? WoW? Both pay to win MMOs as two easy examples. In fact the only way to get the best gear or items is paying every month. You can't even begin to start winning without paying, and when you do pay it can take weeks or even months to get ahead or in WoW classic it took 1+ year

    That is the ultimate pay to win. Not only can you not even start to win without paying, you just can't do anything without paying. Often having to buy a 40-60 USD box price+buy the expansions. BDO? Pay optional besides the very cheap entry price and never worry again. Same with many other buy to play/f2p MMOs. 

    Its good the genre changed to be less pay to win and forcing the player to pay an obscene amount to play. BDO should however be 100% free, but its only 1 dollar or I saw it for 50 cents during black friday, literally on the cheapest sales if you get it from off-steam and the "shady" sites. pretty much free at that point.

    But still, GW2 got rid of its forced entry price and much better. GW2 dont have to pay anything not even latest expansion cause can earn money in game and then buy it with game money through gems (which I did for path of fire).

    These last hold out of pay to win sub MMOs are dying and its good, cause they are the ultimate example of pay to win.


    And yet, the top 2 MMOs are subscription based.
    The top 2 subscription based MMOs are subscription based(duh), the top 2 in population are not.
  • CelciusCelcius Member RarePosts: 1,878
    Utinni said:
    Celcius said:
    Baalzharon said:
    People complain of BDO pay to win. Except you can play 100% free (well you had to buy it, but no forced sub) and buy most stuff on marketplace

    FFXIV? WoW? Both pay to win MMOs as two easy examples. In fact the only way to get the best gear or items is paying every month. You can't even begin to start winning without paying, and when you do pay it can take weeks or even months to get ahead or in WoW classic it took 1+ year

    That is the ultimate pay to win. Not only can you not even start to win without paying, you just can't do anything without paying. Often having to buy a 40-60 USD box price+buy the expansions. BDO? Pay optional besides the very cheap entry price and never worry again. Same with many other buy to play/f2p MMOs. 

    Its good the genre changed to be less pay to win and forcing the player to pay an obscene amount to play. BDO should however be 100% free, but its only 1 dollar or I saw it for 50 cents during black friday, literally on the cheapest sales if you get it from off-steam and the "shady" sites. pretty much free at that point.

    But still, GW2 got rid of its forced entry price and much better. GW2 dont have to pay anything not even latest expansion cause can earn money in game and then buy it with game money through gems (which I did for path of fire).

    These last hold out of pay to win sub MMOs are dying and its good, cause they are the ultimate example of pay to win.


    And yet, the top 2 MMOs are subscription based.
    The top 2 subscription based MMOs are subscription based(duh), the top 2 in population are not.
    The top 2 MMOs are WoW / FFXIV.
    [Deleted User]
  • ray12kray12k Member UncommonPosts: 487
    Baalzharon said:
    People complain of BDO pay to win. Except you can play 100% free (well you had to buy it, but no forced sub) and buy most stuff on marketplace

    FFXIV? WoW? Both pay to win MMOs as two easy examples. In fact the only way to get the best gear or items is paying every month. You can't even begin to start winning without paying, and when you do pay it can take weeks or even months to get ahead or in WoW classic it took 1+ year

    That is the ultimate pay to win. Not only can you not even start to win without paying, you just can't do anything without paying. Often having to buy a 40-60 USD box price+buy the expansions. BDO? Pay optional besides the very cheap entry price and never worry again. Same with many other buy to play/f2p MMOs. 

    Its good the genre changed to be less pay to win and forcing the player to pay an obscene amount to play. BDO should however be 100% free, but its only 1 dollar or I saw it for 50 cents during black friday, literally on the cheapest sales if you get it from off-steam and the "shady" sites. pretty much free at that point.

    But still, GW2 got rid of its forced entry price and much better. GW2 dont have to pay anything not even latest expansion cause can earn money in game and then buy it with game money through gems (which I did for path of fire).

    These last hold out of pay to win sub MMOs are dying and its good, cause they are the ultimate example of pay to win.


    Troll or dumbass? 
  • CelciusCelcius Member RarePosts: 1,878
    edited August 2019
    One more thing, saying that sub based games are P2W is a reach. That is like saying paying to access a game at all is P2W. Pay 2 Win implies that you can pay more money then other players are paying to gain a competitive advantage, which you objectively cannot do in a sub based game unless it is outside the subscription itself. It is pretty hilarious comparing BDO to other games and claiming BDO is not P2W. GW2 is not pay to win but you still have to purchase expansions if you want to play them. (You can't purchase expansions with gems, so you are straight up lying about that)
    UngoodUtinni
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,534
    edited August 2019
    Celcius said:
    One more thing, saying that sub based games are P2W is a reach. That is like saying paying to access a game at all is P2W.
    Someone Finally gets it! this is the whole core of the discussion.

    Needing to Pay to Access the game.. makes the game Pay to Win.. because the only way to win the game... is if you pay.

    I wish I could give you a million Awesomes for this post.. sadly.. I can only offer you one.
    Post edited by Ungood on
    Steelhelm
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,198
    Ungood said:
    Celcius said:
    One more thing, saying that sub based games are P2W is a reach. That is like saying paying to access a game at all is P2W.
    Someone Finally gets it! this is the whole core of the discussion.

    Needing to Pay to Access the game.. makes the game Pay to Win.. because the only way to the game win.. is if you pay.

    I wish I could give you a million Awesomes for this post.. sadly.. I can only offer you one.
    I think everyone get IT.  We just don't agree price of admission is an advantage. If you don't pay you aren't playing or competing. If you do pay it's the same fee and same advantage as everyone else.  It's a reach that only pulls up shit from bulls when you bring your hand back.
    Steelhelm
  • UtinniUtinni Member EpicPosts: 2,209
    Celcius said:
    Utinni said:
    Celcius said:
    Baalzharon said:
    People complain of BDO pay to win. Except you can play 100% free (well you had to buy it, but no forced sub) and buy most stuff on marketplace

    FFXIV? WoW? Both pay to win MMOs as two easy examples. In fact the only way to get the best gear or items is paying every month. You can't even begin to start winning without paying, and when you do pay it can take weeks or even months to get ahead or in WoW classic it took 1+ year

    That is the ultimate pay to win. Not only can you not even start to win without paying, you just can't do anything without paying. Often having to buy a 40-60 USD box price+buy the expansions. BDO? Pay optional besides the very cheap entry price and never worry again. Same with many other buy to play/f2p MMOs. 

    Its good the genre changed to be less pay to win and forcing the player to pay an obscene amount to play. BDO should however be 100% free, but its only 1 dollar or I saw it for 50 cents during black friday, literally on the cheapest sales if you get it from off-steam and the "shady" sites. pretty much free at that point.

    But still, GW2 got rid of its forced entry price and much better. GW2 dont have to pay anything not even latest expansion cause can earn money in game and then buy it with game money through gems (which I did for path of fire).

    These last hold out of pay to win sub MMOs are dying and its good, cause they are the ultimate example of pay to win.


    And yet, the top 2 MMOs are subscription based.
    The top 2 subscription based MMOs are subscription based(duh), the top 2 in population are not.
    The top 2 MMOs are WoW / FFXIV.
    What are they topping? 
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,534
    edited August 2019
    Ungood said:
    Celcius said:
    One more thing, saying that sub based games are P2W is a reach. That is like saying paying to access a game at all is P2W.
    Someone Finally gets it! this is the whole core of the discussion.

    Needing to Pay to Access the game.. makes the game Pay to Win.. because the only way to the game win.. is if you pay.

    I wish I could give you a million Awesomes for this post.. sadly.. I can only offer you one.
    I think everyone get IT.  We just don't agree price of admission is an advantage. If you don't pay you aren't playing or competing. If you do pay it's the same fee and same advantage as everyone else.  It's a reach that only pulls up shit from bulls when you bring your hand back.
    You're simply arguing over the semantics that you opted to muddy anyway.. not cool and poor form man.
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,198
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Celcius said:
    One more thing, saying that sub based games are P2W is a reach. That is like saying paying to access a game at all is P2W.
    Someone Finally gets it! this is the whole core of the discussion.

    Needing to Pay to Access the game.. makes the game Pay to Win.. because the only way to the game win.. is if you pay.

    I wish I could give you a million Awesomes for this post.. sadly.. I can only offer you one.
    I think everyone get IT.  We just don't agree price of admission is an advantage. If you don't pay you aren't playing or competing. If you do pay it's the same fee and same advantage as everyone else.  It's a reach that only pulls up shit from bulls when you bring your hand back.
    You're simply arguing over the semantics that you opted to muddy anyway.. not cool and poor form man.
    Buddy you need a mirror.  Semantics is all you have brought.  But it's not logical.
    Steelhelm
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,534
    edited August 2019
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Celcius said:
    One more thing, saying that sub based games are P2W is a reach. That is like saying paying to access a game at all is P2W.
    Someone Finally gets it! this is the whole core of the discussion.

    Needing to Pay to Access the game.. makes the game Pay to Win.. because the only way to the game win.. is if you pay.

    I wish I could give you a million Awesomes for this post.. sadly.. I can only offer you one.
    I think everyone get IT.  We just don't agree price of admission is an advantage. If you don't pay you aren't playing or competing. If you do pay it's the same fee and same advantage as everyone else.  It's a reach that only pulls up shit from bulls when you bring your hand back.
    You're simply arguing over the semantics that you opted to muddy anyway.. not cool and poor form man.
    Buddy you need a mirror.  Semantics is all you have brought.  But it's not logical.
    No.. I have laughed and pointed out your folly for muddying the definition of P2W. 

    and the more you try to argue.. the more sad it becomes.. really.
    Steelhelm
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • TwoTubesTwoTubes Member UncommonPosts: 328
    I love how the op uses games without a pure subscription model as an example.  They probably were to young to remember when that was a thing and are a little confused because so few games use that payment model anymore.

    I'm sure others brought this up...but I'm not going to read the entire thread.  It is amusing anyway.
  • UtinniUtinni Member EpicPosts: 2,209
    TwoTubes said:
    I love how the op uses games without a pure subscription model as an example.  They probably were to young to remember when that was a thing and are a little confused because so few games use that payment model anymore.

    I'm sure others brought this up...but I'm not going to read the entire thread.  It is amusing anyway.
    The classic "don't agree with me so they must be a kid" defense. 
  • TwoTubesTwoTubes Member UncommonPosts: 328
    edited August 2019
    I was giving them the benefit of the doubt because if they aren't a kid then the given examples were uninformed.

    Seems like quite a defensive post hah. 
  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 2,193
    When did “pay to win” begin standing for “paying for your entertainment” instead of actually paying to win the game?

     OP is a joke. 
    krgwynne[Deleted User]Steelhelmelocke
  • msgnomermsgnomer Member UncommonPosts: 6
    edited August 2019
    I scanned the comments and it's been said in many ways by now, but I can't help adding my voice since I miss the days of subscription games which were the exact opposite of pay-to-win games.  In a subscription game, you paid to play and everyone was on an equal playing field.  You couldn't spend more and get advantages.  What you got for your fee were feature and story rich games with regular maintenance and feature updates.   You really could escape into the game because once you paid your fee, you weren't constantly confronted with items you had to buy if you wanted to progress or experience some aspect of the game.  Talk about immersion-breaking!
    krgwynnePhaserlightSteelhelmelocke[Deleted User]
  • XasapisXasapis Member RarePosts: 6,337
    edited August 2019
    Utinni said:
    Linif said:
    Situations P2W is applicable: Paying money for things not easily, or at all, obtainable through the normal game means so you have such an advantage over players who don't, that it's basically a guaranteed win.

    You've applied P2W too early in the formula, you can't have P2W if you can't play the game. Paying for access is not paying to win. Paying for anything that gives you a clear and irrefutable advantage once you have access to the game would be P2W. Let's say FF14 had a payment option to purchase a weapon and armor that gave you the best stats in PvP, which would either be unobtainable or require a steep grind to obtain under normal means. This would be P2W.
    FF14 has a sub and a cash shop. It's one of the most P2W MMOs around.
    Out of curiousity,what do they sell in the cash shop that qualifies as P2W?
    Ι don't think he understand what P2W actually stands for. He's probably complaining about the possibility of double dipping in those two mmorpgs. I'm not aware about the situation with WoW, but in FFXIV the cash shop is so out of the way and practically hidden, that you can literally ignore it's existence. 

    There are only two things in the FFXIV cash shop that people tend to spend a lot of money. The first is Fantasia potions, the game's mechanic of complete character visual reset (race, gender, looks etc.) The second are the various skip potions, a way for new players to play the game for a couple months and quit.


  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,857
    Xasapis said:
    Utinni said:
    Linif said:
    Situations P2W is applicable: Paying money for things not easily, or at all, obtainable through the normal game means so you have such an advantage over players who don't, that it's basically a guaranteed win.

    You've applied P2W too early in the formula, you can't have P2W if you can't play the game. Paying for access is not paying to win. Paying for anything that gives you a clear and irrefutable advantage once you have access to the game would be P2W. Let's say FF14 had a payment option to purchase a weapon and armor that gave you the best stats in PvP, which would either be unobtainable or require a steep grind to obtain under normal means. This would be P2W.
    FF14 has a sub and a cash shop. It's one of the most P2W MMOs around.
    Out of curiousity,what do they sell in the cash shop that qualifies as P2W?
    Ι don't think he understand what P2W actually stands for. He's probably complaining about the possibility of double dipping in those two mmorpgs. I'm not aware about the situation with WoW, but in FFXIV the cash shop is so out of the way and practically hidden, that you can literally ignore it's existence. 

    There are only two things in the FFXIV cash shop that people tend to spend a lot of money. The first is Fantasia potions, the game's mechanic of complete character visual reset (race, gender, looks etc.) The second are the various skip potions, a way for new players to play the game for a couple months and quit.


    LOL, yeah, it's not P2W, it's pay to not play.
  • CazrielCazriel Member RarePosts: 419
    I can't decide whether this is an attempt to troll the community, in which case everyone who jumped onto the hay wagon--fun times!  Or if OP hasn't figured out that olden games with subscriptions were untainted by mechanics that are intentionally created to get players of free to play games into the cash shop.  While Mr. Peabody, Sherman and the Way Back machine are no longer available to us, it would be preferable to return to those days when games where meant to be played as games and not simply profit schemes of multi-billion, global corporations meant to manipulate gamers into forking over cash. 
    kitarad
  • lahnmirlahnmir Member LegendaryPosts: 5,058
    OP is baiting but that is ok. It is very simple though, P2W means you can get an advantage in a game compared to other players by spending (more) money. This doesn’t hold true for subscription based games since you all pay the same and there is no advantage compared to another player of said game. OP got 6 pages out of it, he can upgrade to a more luxurious bridge soon.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    kitarad
    'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'

    Kyleran on yours sincerely 


    'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'

    Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...



    'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless. 

    It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.

    It is just huge resource waste....'

    Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer

  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    Is there just some competition going on to see how long it takes for a thread to lock or something?

    Guess this one is less controversial and more just nonsensical than the others though.
This discussion has been closed.