Actually there's more game mechanic systems in Star Citizen that suit the sand box genre than say probably EvE, Elite and No Man Sky combined.
Besides having already the traditional space game features like Trading, Bounty Hunting, Mining it has features like space legs, eva, multicrew, fps deeply embedded in it's core gameplay. You can carry your friends in your ship, you can fly any ship from day one (if you get access to them), you can carry other ship's inside your ship, you can carry ground vehicles to race on distant moons.
That's why only in Star Citizen you can leave your ship and EVA in space into another players ship, assassinate him, steal is ship full of cargo and then sell it or better ask for a ransom.
Only in Star Citizen you can have seamless travel from one planet to a moon and have full warfare battles everywhere; planetside, in space, inside ships, space-stations. Both with FPS troops, Ground Vehicles and air support.
That you have missions where both players need to fetch the same quest item and have to fight for it or can collaborate.
Only in Star Citizen you can board steal NPC ship's, kill the pilot and take their ship for a ride.
Only in Star Citizen you can have players having FPS battles inside your ship while you fly it.
It's going for the GTA in space but on a full persistent server with it's own dynamic economy and stronger penalties for crime and death.
The direction has been the same since the kickstarter pitch, to build a living, breathing immersive sci-fi universe for players to "live" on. We're just fortunate enough that so many gamers around the world share this desire that it has allowed CIG to bring us what is already the Best Space Sim ever done.
That's funny because you describe content that emerges from the physical engine. Things inside things, people carried by people, racing, flying, shooting. It's very primitive, it's not structured content, or conscious use of the User Interface, of skills or skill checks, actual features. I understand they had to create all this engine just to allow this "physical" content you mention, but gameplay-wise, there's no "meat". It's on the level of stone-age, as content. It reminds me of that failure of a MMO, darkfall something, for the whole time the game was up, there was just ppl bashing each other with clubs, it was ROUGH PvP, and that content that "emerged" from the pure physicality was made up by the players themselves. If a MMO wants to survive, it needs more.
Exactly, what do you mean you can take the NPC ship "for a ride"? Does that mean it's not really yours and you have to destroy it and can't dock it and own it like for example with a precise feature that lets you "change the plate and varnish", to quote the GTA you mention, a feature that would entail a lot of things, for example there's a whole profession right there, the dealer and restorer of stolen ships, with his station and skills.
Yes it's exactly why Star Citizen gameplay possibilities are so enticing and many people have fun playing it even in it's alpha state.
Despite the game currently having resets every 3 months there's been plenty of emergent gameplay by various ORG's or just organic gameplay by randoms having fun.
Drug trade routes were once very popular in a specific "secret" location, as it became more known flocks of players flew there in search of a fast buck. Some orgs defended it from griefers others attacked unexpected traders and so on.
As the game systems become more complex so the possibilities. For example there's now NPC securities forces that will interdict your ship and scan your ship for illegal cargo. You have to stop and let them scan you or you'll get a crime stat, crime stats influences the type of missions you can do or in what areas you can land.
This player found a smart and simple way to not be flagged by just dumping it's illegal cargo while the police was scanning it and then picking it up again!
Some quick thinking outside the box and ingenuity created through the game mechanics in existence.
Taking NPC ships for a ride = Using them to play the game, a new player with a starter ship (weak firepower, slow long range traveling etc) can, through the existing game mechanics steal better and powerfull ships and use them to more easily complete bounty hunting missions for example.
Theres no level or skill grinds in Star Citizen. You don't choose factions at the start. You are what you do and the world reacts accordingly. If you do criminal activities you'll open new crime related missions while losing the ability to do the law abiding ones. You can however reset your crime stat by hacking main security terminals, that involves spending money in a hacking key and infiltrating space station or a bunkers with security terminals.
The simple act of becoming stranded in space can create a co-op mission opportunity or an assassination.
No gameplay session is exactly like another and missions constantly try to put players into the same path. As friends or as foes.
Correct me if im wrong but I’ve heard of people being interdicted a few times in one trip and sometimes the security forces just like to blow you up for shit n giggles. I’ve heard unconfirmed reports that you can be interdicted right after being interdicted so it sounds like instead of having a mechanic that’s supposed to add depth to gameplay CIG just slapped it on as a way to add artifical length to every trip. Add on top of that you have to sit there at your monitor in case your ship randomly overheats and you drop out of warp so that you can start all over again sounds like a very boring journey and poorly thought out mechanics
A lot of misconceptions in your post but i'll limit myself to a short reply.
The way I see it, for you, sandbox games are nothing more than a wet dream. What you've described cannot and will not work in 2019 (and on). Simply because of the internet that defines the genre. There will be tons of Wikis and guides on how to "cook" the meta recipes and the most efficient ways of progress will be listed in black and white and that'd be that until the developers begin the process of nerf/buff.
Also calling elder scrolls just a bunch of pretty trees just goes to show that you've actually never roamed off the beaten path in it, if you've ever played it. There's so much stuff happening around...
A wet dream? SWG, Ultima Online, Mortal Online (bad for many who couldn't cope with its amazingly deep professions system) all happened more than 10 years ago.
I finished Oblivion, and it was a fake, empty benchmark world of bushes being moved by the wind.
Ultima 7 was way more of a simulation than a TES could ever be (not modded, ofc), and i did't even play Skyrim, and i don't need to.
And what about the good Fallout, by Interplay? It wasn't a "life simulation", but the character could use his/her skills practically on EVERY object... most of the time you had no results, but the UI and the skill system did allow the players to interact with everything. Remember? You point to an object, you click and keep pressed, and you could examine, use or use skill. It had a great level of freedom of agency. Maybe that's not sufficient to call it a sandbox, because sandbox needs to simulate ordinary life.
In the end it all comes down to the power of the UI. You don't have a way to interact with the world realistically, you can't have a sandbox that's more than roaming around a world behind a glass, which is what happens, most of the time, even with SC i'm afraid. Don't you guys think?
SC = Strike Commander/Star Citizen
Yes it's a wet dream in 2019. 10 years ago some people still used dial-ups. The internet was crap and there weren't many websites. Even guides for WoW of all things were hard to comeby.
Fast-forward 2019, name a MMO I haven't played and I'll google you the meta builds and how to level up guides in ~5 minutes or less.
Guild Wars 2 tried similar approach to crafting as you've said. There's discovery, which, among other things gives a whole lot more experience than usual crafting through bought recipes. However, this tech nowadays is being used as nothing more than a power level up tool, basically turning gold (buying materials) to experience. This is what I meant.
Also Fallout 3, Fallout: New Vegas and Skyrim are amazing sandbox games. Whether you feel like it or not is not my problem, but stop spreading bullshit. There's a reason Skyrim was rebranded 5 times and all 5 times it was a best selling title. It's a fascinating game, especially with mods. Let's be real here. No one buys Skyrim for PC and doesn't plan on modding the heck out of it.
its not anything but a bunch of pieced together tech demos ATM. The more the defenders defend and give time lines the more time goes by with almost zero actual advancement other than fixing a couple bugged things here and there and that usually created more bugs than they fixed. Perpetual 'development' is an awesome business plan especially when you have so many fools willing to continue to send you money.
Quite simply do you think Elite Dangerous is a sandbox game, if you do then that's what SC will be...when it comes out in 202x. Roll a D10 and see what year you get.
Only to a limited degree. The lack of an avatar that can move around outside the ship is a limiting factor. Only the ship or the rover is active. It is a very good game, but as a sandbox not comparable to Star Wars Galaxies (which - in its first incarnation - i would classify as a sandbox game) or Fallout 3/4.
EVE Online is much more a sandbox in that respect. With the - now inactive - DUST 514 and the captains quarters they at least had some limited avatar interaction activities in the past.
Star Citizen IMHO better fits the sandbox definition (I use the definition that i linked upthread in a previous post), but it also fits it only partially. You cannot freely build anything out of everything. Dual Universe might be a better fit there. More options, but the price you pay is visual fidelity.
The real question should be, will it ever release?
I think it will release one day, in what state and as what type of game, themepark or sandbox, who knows, i sure don't and nobody else does either because its nowhere near completion.
Do you plan on contributing something to the TOPIC of the thread for a change?
Which is: "sandbox".
Like how YOU would define a sandbox?
Have fun
for it to be a sandbox GAME it first has to be an actual game. Which is isnt. and it isnt even close. So what I said was perfectly on topic.
This debate is like looking at a pile of sugar and trying to ask if its is a cheesecake.
What lol
SC as it currently state, is more sandbox than its intended final state, the game has been open on all that happens without much consequence, and with a literal sandbox mode that is the PTU with currency and ships spawned in for all
Well you don't think a game exists then it's no wonder you have no idea how what people are playing hits with the sandbox debatable
Do you plan on contributing something to the TOPIC of the thread for a change?
Which is: "sandbox".
Like how YOU would define a sandbox?
Have fun
for it to be a sandbox GAME it first has to be an actual game. Which is isnt. and it isnt even close. So what I said was perfectly on topic.
This debate is like looking at a pile of sugar and trying to ask if its is a cheesecake.
What lol
SC as it currently state, is more sandbox than its intended final state, the game has been open on all that happens without much consequence, and with a literal sandbox mode that is the PTU with currency and ships spawned in for all
Well you don't think a game exists then it's no wonder you have no idea how what people are playing hits with the sandbox debatable
So you’re saying it’s going to be a theme park when it finally releases? Seems kinda ass backwards to go from a sandbox now to less of a sandbox in the final game.
So you’re saying it’s going to be a theme park when it finally releases? Seems kinda ass backwards to go from a sandbox now to less of a sandbox in the final game.
If it releases, it will release as a Minimum Viable Product (MVP). And the holdouts will do amazing mental gymnastics to accept it because they fell for the Sunk Cost Fallacy.
So you’re saying it’s going to be a theme park when it finally releases? Seems kinda ass backwards to go from a sandbox now to less of a sandbox in the final game.
Within the sim aspect determines some needed linearity, SC whole point falls on what you'd consider sandbox, that is freedom of play.
Themepark is the opposite of sandbox, it gives away freedom in favor of linear content.
In a theme park MMO, you might say "I've cleared that dungeon" or "I'm past that area" or "I reached high enough level to play on this area". In a sandbox, that dungeon/area is just a place that you go for different reasons and you're never really "done" with it.
Considering that the conclusion is obvious in terms of Themepark vs Sandbox it is Sandbox, one of the main directions (and pitch) of SC is going against the themepark MMO progression, like grinding xp to level. As everything currently and developing for SC focus the freedom of play, so the answer for that question has always been around.
The needed mechanics that impose less freedom on how you play are mostly there to either make something make sense, balance the game, etc... Such as not allowing players to grief (ramming ships spawned on landing pads, etc...).
So you’re saying it’s going to be a theme park when it finally releases? Seems kinda ass backwards to go from a sandbox now to less of a sandbox in the final game.
Within the sim aspect determines some needed linearity, SC whole point falls on what you'd consider sandbox, that is freedom of play.
Themepark is the opposite of sandbox, it gives away freedom in favor of linear content.
In a theme park MMO, you might say "I've cleared that dungeon" or "I'm past that area" or "I reached high enough level to play on this area". In a sandbox, that dungeon/area is just a place that you go for different reasons and you're never really "done" with it.
Considering that the conclusion is obvious in terms of Themepark vs Sandbox it is Sandbox, one of the main directions (and pitch) of SC is going against the themepark MMO progression, like grinding xp to level. As everything currently and developing for SC focus the freedom of play, so the answer for that question has always been around.
The needed mechanics that impose less freedom on how you play are mostly there to either make something make sense, balance the game, etc... Such as not allowing players to grief (ramming ships spawned on landing pads, etc...).
You don’t need to explain what a theme park vs sandbox is. I was just pointing out how you said it’s going to be less of a sandbox when it releases.
Actually there's more game mechanic systems in Star Citizen that suit the sand box genre than say probably EvE, Elite and No Man Sky combined.
Besides having already the traditional space game features like Trading, Bounty Hunting, Mining it has features like space legs, eva, multicrew, fps deeply embedded in it's core gameplay. You can carry your friends in your ship, you can fly any ship from day one (if you get access to them), you can carry other ship's inside your ship, you can carry ground vehicles to race on distant moons.
That's why only in Star Citizen you can leave your ship and EVA in space into another players ship, assassinate him, steal is ship full of cargo and then sell it or better ask for a ransom.
Only in Star Citizen you can have seamless travel from one planet to a moon and have full warfare battles everywhere; planetside, in space, inside ships, space-stations. Both with FPS troops, Ground Vehicles and air support.
That you have missions where both players need to fetch the same quest item and have to fight for it or can collaborate.
Only in Star Citizen you can board steal NPC ship's, kill the pilot and take their ship for a ride.
Only in Star Citizen you can have players having FPS battles inside your ship while you fly it.
It's going for the GTA in space but on a full persistent server with it's own dynamic economy and stronger penalties for crime and death.
The direction has been the same since the kickstarter pitch, to build a living, breathing immersive sci-fi universe for players to "live" on. We're just fortunate enough that so many gamers around the world share this desire that it has allowed CIG to bring us what is already the Best Space Sim ever done.
That's funny because you describe content that emerges from the physical engine. Things inside things, people carried by people, racing, flying, shooting. It's very primitive, it's not structured content, or conscious use of the User Interface, of skills or skill checks, actual features. I understand they had to create all this engine just to allow this "physical" content you mention, but gameplay-wise, there's no "meat". It's on the level of stone-age, as content. It reminds me of that failure of a MMO, darkfall something, for the whole time the game was up, there was just ppl bashing each other with clubs, it was ROUGH PvP, and that content that "emerged" from the pure physicality was made up by the players themselves. If a MMO wants to survive, it needs more.
Exactly, what do you mean you can take the NPC ship "for a ride"? Does that mean it's not really yours and you have to destroy it and can't dock it and own it like for example with a precise feature that lets you "change the plate and varnish", to quote the GTA you mention, a feature that would entail a lot of things, for example there's a whole profession right there, the dealer and restorer of stolen ships, with his station and skills.
Yes it's exactly why Star Citizen gameplay possibilities are so enticing and many people have fun playing it even in it's alpha state.
Despite the game currently having resets every 3 months there's been plenty of emergent gameplay by various ORG's or just organic gameplay by randoms having fun.
Drug trade routes were once very popular in a specific "secret" location, as it became more known flocks of players flew there in search of a fast buck. Some orgs defended it from griefers others attacked unexpected traders and so on.
As the game systems become more complex so the possibilities. For example there's now NPC securities forces that will interdict your ship and scan your ship for illegal cargo. You have to stop and let them scan you or you'll get a crime stat, crime stats influences the type of missions you can do or in what areas you can land.
This player found a smart and simple way to not be flagged by just dumping it's illegal cargo while the police was scanning it and then picking it up again!
Some quick thinking outside the box and ingenuity created through the game mechanics in existence.
Taking NPC ships for a ride = Using them to play the game, a new player with a starter ship (weak firepower, slow long range traveling etc) can, through the existing game mechanics steal better and powerfull ships and use them to more easily complete bounty hunting missions for example.
Theres no level or skill grinds in Star Citizen. You don't choose factions at the start. You are what you do and the world reacts accordingly. If you do criminal activities you'll open new crime related missions while losing the ability to do the law abiding ones. You can however reset your crime stat by hacking main security terminals, that involves spending money in a hacking key and infiltrating space station or a bunkers with security terminals.
Sounds good, the obliteration of geographic limitations we mentioned earlier.
Regarding player-created mechanics, i like 'em to a point, but i need proper mechanics that let me manipulate the environment and follow careers. Point is, keep the players occupied with something that's not pre-cooked missions and delivery errands, they're boring time sinks.
A lot of misconceptions in your post but i'll limit myself to a short reply.
The way I see it, for you, sandbox games are nothing more than a wet dream. What you've described cannot and will not work in 2019 (and on). Simply because of the internet that defines the genre. There will be tons of Wikis and guides on how to "cook" the meta recipes and the most efficient ways of progress will be listed in black and white and that'd be that until the developers begin the process of nerf/buff.
Also calling elder scrolls just a bunch of pretty trees just goes to show that you've actually never roamed off the beaten path in it, if you've ever played it. There's so much stuff happening around...
A wet dream? SWG, Ultima Online, Mortal Online (bad for many who couldn't cope with its amazingly deep professions system) all happened more than 10 years ago.
I finished Oblivion, and it was a fake, empty benchmark world of bushes being moved by the wind.
Ultima 7 was way more of a simulation than a TES could ever be (not modded, ofc), and i did't even play Skyrim, and i don't need to.
And what about the good Fallout, by Interplay? It wasn't a "life simulation", but the character could use his/her skills practically on EVERY object... most of the time you had no results, but the UI and the skill system did allow the players to interact with everything. Remember? You point to an object, you click and keep pressed, and you could examine, use or use skill. It had a great level of freedom of agency. Maybe that's not sufficient to call it a sandbox, because sandbox needs to simulate ordinary life.
In the end it all comes down to the power of the UI. You don't have a way to interact with the world realistically, you can't have a sandbox that's more than roaming around a world behind a glass, which is what happens, most of the time, even with SC i'm afraid. Don't you guys think?
SC = Strike Commander/Star Citizen
Yes it's a wet dream in 2019. 10 years ago some people still used dial-ups. The internet was crap and there weren't many websites. Even guides for WoW of all things were hard to comeby.
Fast-forward 2019, name a MMO I haven't played and I'll google you the meta builds and how to level up guides in ~5 minutes or less.
Guild Wars 2 tried similar approach to crafting as you've said. There's discovery, which, among other things gives a whole lot more experience than usual crafting through bought recipes. However, this tech nowadays is being used as nothing more than a power level up tool, basically turning gold (buying materials) to experience. This is what I meant.
Also Fallout 3, Fallout: New Vegas and Skyrim are amazing sandbox games. Whether you feel like it or not is not my problem, but stop spreading bullshit. There's a reason Skyrim was rebranded 5 times and all 5 times it was a best selling title. It's a fascinating game, especially with mods. Let's be real here. No one buys Skyrim for PC and doesn't plan on modding the heck out of it.
How can it be a wet dream if they made a better work in 1993 with Ultima7?
What's a meta build, what do level up guides have to do with the fact that there can be games that make professions deeper? The last sandbox MMO i played which had a lot of interactivity was Mortal Online. They criticized it for many things, and it surely had tons of bugs, but the depth of the mining and mineralogy careers was amazing. You had to read books, you had to have a skill for each material, for each way to work the material, for each instrument you used to grind and melt the materials together to do more materials, so coke plus iron made steel, but you could try more combinations and formula to make better armor, it was unbelievable depth.
I never actually played Guild Wars 2 so i can't evaluate the professions depth, provided ofc we can first establish that sandbox IS infact mainly more depth of professions.
Fallout new Vegas is a good game because i hear it gives a lot of freedom... it's from the same guys who did the first fallout's, the only true fallout's.
But the problem with Skyrim and Fallout 3 is they're shallow games. You don't interact with anything. Among some others that may be discovered, there's 2 levels i see of freedom. The one during missions, the freedom you'll see in deus ex and Fallout, where you have about 3 or 4 ways to accomplish a missions, the most subtle one requiring you to inspect the environment and see some objects that, if you do a correct skill check on them (like engineering) lets you have an item or do an action that "resolves" the problem at hand, like, two factions are at war for a power generator, you can choose to support either, but if you succesfully use engineering on the generator, it disables it, and peace is made. So there's freedom of choices, alternative ways that require you to "look around" for items that can be used. I don't think Skyrim does that, and i'm sure Oblivion did NOT.
Second type of interaction depth is simulative. In Ultima7 you could use and pick up absolutely EVERY object: you just had to double click for example an oven, and boom, you cooked bread or something. You could move every chair, every box, every plate on a table, and so a forest was full of objects you could pick up (plants, flowers, acorn, whatever), you could get kindle off a tree and make campfire, things like that. Oblivion did NOT have that.
that's why i state again, every Bethesda game after Morrowind is a fake, empty, shallow, game world, because Bethesda understood players are dumb, all they want is bash monsters, level up their characters, get bigger swords. Admittedly i didn't play Skyrim (vanilla ofc), but i bet it's mostly like Oblivion. I doubt it's as deep as Ultima7
so finally take a look at this video, it explains the difference between a shallow huge world, and a smaller hub filled with depth.
Freedom in a sandbox is not only when you do something stupid and unexpected and something also dumb happens, like when you shove a pan on an NPC's head he won't see that you rob him blind: that goes to show that a shallow game DOES allow emergent gameplay like in a sandbox, but there's only primitive physicality, those developers mailed it in when it came to simulate their behaviour. Cause they didn't care!
So to sum up, for me a game is sandbox when it starts simulating life in sufficiently realistic ways. And it's not just the physical world, so objects don't just weigh, they have an intrinsical use.
If i had to bet i'd say SC wants to do that. Problem is it also wants to do story-driven gameplay, and it wants to also do a realistic cosmo flight system.
Prime_Directive said: Imagine "The Expanse" with millions of players partaking in a variety of available directions.
As a backer, not a follower, of SC, last time I actually bothered to look, some ships could carry more crew/players than a server can actually accommodate, so where are you getting "The Expanse with millions of players" info from?
It is a funny world we live in. We had Empires run by Emperors, we had Kingdoms run by Kings, now we have Countries...
You don’t need to explain what a theme park vs sandbox is. I was just pointing out how you said it’s going to be less of a sandbox when it releases.
Yeah that's on the last part of my post, mechanics will limit freedom because it is needed to have the game work, this goes from insurance mechanics to law mechanics all that limits freedom but that won't turn into themepark, it's just a balance game is not going full-in sandbox.
Prime_Directive said: Imagine "The Expanse" with millions of players partaking in a variety of available directions.
As a backer, not a follower, of SC, last time I actually bothered to look, some ships could carry more crew/players than a server can actually accommodate, so where are you getting "The Expanse with millions of players" info from?
Well SC can very well have millions of players, but like with any MMO, there will never be anywhere millions online so... that sentence can stick
The whole server shenanigans on SC are a future thing, but I think what is intended is that the cap will consider mostly ships not the crew inside as in terms of the network a ship is vastly more heavy on a server than any player character could be.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Thank @NorseGod ; haha, but is true every time the convention time comes up some people bother to start hating more intensively so everyone gets triggered on random online forums
Thank @NorseGod ; haha, but is true every time the convention time comes up some people bother to start hating more intensively so everyone gets triggered on random online forums
It was all so quiet and nice!
I assume you're discussing other threads and not the topic of this one?
I've already stated that I consider SC to be a sandbox. In some form, but nevertheless.
In regards to SC threads, I thought you guys liked it when Star Citizen threads are bumped to the 1st page of the forums. The three of you want this, yes?
Comments
Fast-forward 2019, name a MMO I haven't played and I'll google you the meta builds and how to level up guides in ~5 minutes or less.
Guild Wars 2 tried similar approach to crafting as you've said. There's discovery, which, among other things gives a whole lot more experience than usual crafting through bought recipes. However, this tech nowadays is being used as nothing more than a power level up tool, basically turning gold (buying materials) to experience. This is what I meant.
Also Fallout 3, Fallout: New Vegas and Skyrim are amazing sandbox games. Whether you feel like it or not is not my problem, but stop spreading bullshit. There's a reason Skyrim was rebranded 5 times and all 5 times it was a best selling title. It's a fascinating game, especially with mods. Let's be real here. No one buys Skyrim for PC and doesn't plan on modding the heck out of it.
P.S. If you get a 1 or 2 roll again.
This debate is like looking at a pile of sugar and trying to ask if its is a cheesecake.
SC as it currently state, is more sandbox than its intended final state, the game has been open on all that happens without much consequence, and with a literal sandbox mode that is the PTU with currency and ships spawned in for all
Well you don't think a game exists then it's no wonder you have no idea how what people are playing hits with the sandbox debatable
Within the sim aspect determines some needed linearity, SC whole point falls on what you'd consider sandbox, that is freedom of play.
Themepark is the opposite of sandbox, it gives away freedom in favor of linear content.
In a theme park MMO, you might say "I've cleared that dungeon" or "I'm past that area" or "I reached high enough level to play on this area". In a sandbox, that dungeon/area is just a place that you go for different reasons and you're never really "done" with it.
Considering that the conclusion is obvious in terms of Themepark vs Sandbox it is Sandbox, one of the main directions (and pitch) of SC is going against the themepark MMO progression, like grinding xp to level. As everything currently and developing for SC focus the freedom of play, so the answer for that question has always been around.
The needed mechanics that impose less freedom on how you play are mostly there to either make something make sense, balance the game, etc... Such as not allowing players to grief (ramming ships spawned on landing pads, etc...).
Regarding player-created mechanics, i like 'em to a point, but i need proper mechanics that let me manipulate the environment and follow careers. Point is, keep the players occupied with something that's not pre-cooked missions and delivery errands, they're boring time sinks.
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What's a meta build, what do level up guides have to do with the fact that there can be games that make professions deeper? The last sandbox MMO i played which had a lot of interactivity was Mortal Online. They criticized it for many things, and it surely had tons of bugs, but the depth of the mining and mineralogy careers was amazing. You had to read books, you had to have a skill for each material, for each way to work the material, for each instrument you used to grind and melt the materials together to do more materials, so coke plus iron made steel, but you could try more combinations and formula to make better armor, it was unbelievable depth.
I never actually played Guild Wars 2 so i can't evaluate the professions depth, provided ofc we can first establish that sandbox IS infact mainly more depth of professions.
Fallout new Vegas is a good game because i hear it gives a lot of freedom... it's from the same guys who did the first fallout's, the only true fallout's.
But the problem with Skyrim and Fallout 3 is they're shallow games. You don't interact with anything. Among some others that may be discovered, there's 2 levels i see of freedom. The one during missions, the freedom you'll see in deus ex and Fallout, where you have about 3 or 4 ways to accomplish a missions, the most subtle one requiring you to inspect the environment and see some objects that, if you do a correct skill check on them (like engineering) lets you have an item or do an action that "resolves" the problem at hand, like, two factions are at war for a power generator, you can choose to support either, but if you succesfully use engineering on the generator, it disables it, and peace is made. So there's freedom of choices, alternative ways that require you to "look around" for items that can be used. I don't think Skyrim does that, and i'm sure Oblivion did NOT.
Second type of interaction depth is simulative. In Ultima7 you could use and pick up absolutely EVERY object: you just had to double click for example an oven, and boom, you cooked bread or something. You could move every chair, every box, every plate on a table, and so a forest was full of objects you could pick up (plants, flowers, acorn, whatever), you could get kindle off a tree and make campfire, things like that. Oblivion did NOT have that.
that's why i state again, every Bethesda game after Morrowind is a fake, empty, shallow, game world, because Bethesda understood players are dumb, all they want is bash monsters, level up their characters, get bigger swords. Admittedly i didn't play Skyrim (vanilla ofc), but i bet it's mostly like Oblivion. I doubt it's as deep as Ultima7
so finally take a look at this video, it explains the difference between a shallow huge world, and a smaller hub filled with depth.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USVr936aKzs&t=435s
Freedom in a sandbox is not only when you do something stupid and unexpected and something also dumb happens, like when you shove a pan on an NPC's head he won't see that you rob him blind: that goes to show that a shallow game DOES allow emergent gameplay like in a sandbox, but there's only primitive physicality, those developers mailed it in when it came to simulate their behaviour. Cause they didn't care!
So to sum up, for me a game is sandbox when it starts simulating life in sufficiently realistic ways. And it's not just the physical world, so objects don't just weigh, they have an intrinsical use.
If i had to bet i'd say SC wants to do that. Problem is it also wants to do story-driven gameplay, and it wants to also do a realistic cosmo flight system.
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We had Empires run by Emperors, we had Kingdoms run by Kings, now we have Countries...
The whole server shenanigans on SC are a future thing, but I think what is intended is that the cap will consider mostly ships not the crew inside as in terms of the network a ship is vastly more heavy on a server than any player character could be.
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It was all so quiet and nice!
I've already stated that I consider SC to be a sandbox. In some form, but nevertheless.
In regards to SC threads, I thought you guys liked it when Star Citizen threads are bumped to the 1st page of the forums. The three of you want this, yes?