VG had dps analysis in the forums. They're not stupid, the players understand total DPS is only one factor. An example discussion might have been how warrior is better than DK paired with a rogue because of the sympathetic and rescue attacks (I cant remember if that is actually true but you get the idea, its about details).
Damage meters sometimes help you figure out when an ability isnt doing what its supposed to. Sometimes the coder screws up. Without damage reporting a broken ability would likely go years without being fixed.
I wont say they need to code damage meters into the game, but they do need to properly report and log damages. And once you do that people will make their own damage meter.
DPS meters are only useful for DPS classes, for Tanks, Healers, CC etc. they are useless distraction and utterly pointless.
I do hope you refer to just dps meters since healers aren't known for their damage capabilities. However, healing metrics is a valuable tool for healers, high raw output is how you can go with fewer healers which speeds up fights instead of just outlasting the enemy and also could take down dangerous adds quicker.
To go even further to analysis you could track the healing output when everyone had to move and which people could push out the most healing during a damage spike.
People that were low on raw healing failed on healing during movement phases and were slow on healing after a damage spike. They also focused too much on reactive healing which is a slow way of healing while good healers anticipated which people were about to take lots of damage.
Its as important for raid healers to evaluate their gameplay as it is for damage dealers.
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
But there shouldn't be rotations. "if one does x, y and z then they are optimal."
Combat should have surprises. A player should have to gauge the battle, make decisions in the moment.
Why, 100% agreed.
Vanguard was like this, so I'm not sure why Pantheon should be different. Games that go A,B,C or in some cases even just A repeat without end are a PITA. Dont expect me to stay.
I expect critical hits and parry events and followup abilities to that.
And I expect buffs and other effects from certain ability sequences like on a Vanguard ranger or disciple. Not on all classes, each class should be different, but some should have this.
I also hope they will again have weaknesses and exploits. So if you party with other classes, you will see effects on the mob that some abilities have put up and can then hit an ability of yours that exploits this weakness for additional effects on the mob, such as simply more damage. Again this wasnt on all Vanguard classes, only on some of them.
I also expect some classes to have point systems of various kinds, like on the Vanguard Blood Mage, Monk, Disciple and many other classes.
Likewise I for example expect that a spellcaster can still move around while spellcasting, at full speed backwards even, if they are levitating, just like it was in Vanguard. Having to stand still for that like in WoW would be no fun at all.
However as long as they're going for less abilities as in Vanguard I dont really see how that could possibly be realized.
Who is the best healer, well the one who does the most dmg.
Good luck ever doing any damage on a Vanguard Cleric.
And the best healer in Vanguard was the one who healed the best, not who did the most damage. Theres no point in outdps-ing everybody else if the tank dies.
Who is the best healer, well the one who does the most dmg.
Good luck ever doing any damage on a Vanguard Cleric.
And the best healer in Vanguard was the one who healed the best, not who did the most damage. Theres no point in outdps-ing everybody else if the tank dies.
This is how it should be.
But in almost every mmo that has released recently that is not the case when a parser is involved.
But there shouldn't be rotations. "if one does x, y and z then they are optimal."
Combat should have surprises. A player should have to gauge the battle, make decisions in the moment.
Why, 100% agreed.
Vanguard was like this, so I'm not sure why Pantheon should be different. Games that go A,B,C or in some cases even just A repeat without end are a PITA. Dont expect me to stay.
I expect critical hits and parry events and followup abilities to that.
And I expect buffs and other effects from certain ability sequences like on a Vanguard ranger or disciple. Not on all classes, each class should be different, but some should have this.
I also hope they will again have weaknesses and exploits. So if you party with other classes, you will see effects on the mob that some abilities have put up and can then hit an ability of yours that exploits this weakness for additional effects on the mob, such as simply more damage. Again this wasnt on all Vanguard classes, only on some of them.
I also expect some classes to have point systems of various kinds, like on the Vanguard Blood Mage, Monk, Disciple and many other classes.
Likewise I for example expect that a spellcaster can still move around while spellcasting, at full speed backwards even, if they are levitating, just like it was in Vanguard. Having to stand still for that like in WoW would be no fun at all.
However as long as they're going for less abilities as in Vanguard I dont really see how that could possibly be realized.
sigh I miss Vanguard.
I know there is an unofficial server but the only time I tried it, it was so laggy I was killed to invisible enemies and couldn't get off a hit.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I guess one could run a private server, but either you'll be on your own, or you'll have the lag problem, or you'll have the problem to finance this thing.
DPS meters are only useful for DPS classes, for Tanks, Healers, CC etc. they are useless distraction and utterly pointless.
I do hope you refer to just dps meters since healers aren't known for their damage capabilities. However, healing metrics is a valuable tool for healers, high raw output is how you can go with fewer healers which speeds up fights instead of just outlasting the enemy and also could take down dangerous adds quicker.
To go even further to analysis you could track the healing output when everyone had to move and which people could push out the most healing during a damage spike.
People that were low on raw healing failed on healing during movement phases and were slow on healing after a damage spike. They also focused too much on reactive healing which is a slow way of healing while good healers anticipated which people were about to take lots of damage.
Its as important for raid healers to evaluate their gameplay as it is for damage dealers.
I was refering to DPS meters, as for raw healing, that is not a true indication of healing ability, its more important when and who you heal than how much you are capable of healing, particularly in long battles where mana management is extremely important. DPS meters are worthless imo and lead people to make rash decisions based on questionable data.
But there shouldn't be rotations. "if one does x, y and z then they are optimal."
Combat should have surprises. A player should have to gauge the battle, make decisions in the moment.
Why, 100% agreed.
Vanguard was like this, so I'm not sure why Pantheon should be different. Games that go A,B,C or in some cases even just A repeat without end are a PITA. Dont expect me to stay.
I expect critical hits and parry events and followup abilities to that.
And I expect buffs and other effects from certain ability sequences like on a Vanguard ranger or disciple. Not on all classes, each class should be different, but some should have this.
I also hope they will again have weaknesses and exploits. So if you party with other classes, you will see effects on the mob that some abilities have put up and can then hit an ability of yours that exploits this weakness for additional effects on the mob, such as simply more damage. Again this wasnt on all Vanguard classes, only on some of them.
I also expect some classes to have point systems of various kinds, like on the Vanguard Blood Mage, Monk, Disciple and many other classes.
Likewise I for example expect that a spellcaster can still move around while spellcasting, at full speed backwards even, if they are levitating, just like it was in Vanguard. Having to stand still for that like in WoW would be no fun at all.
However as long as they're going for less abilities as in Vanguard I dont really see how that could possibly be realized.
sigh I miss Vanguard.
I know there is an unofficial server but the only time I tried it, it was so laggy I was killed to invisible enemies and couldn't get off a hit.
You probably need a better computer.
I recall that being one of the original excuses Brad gave for Vanguards poor optimization and performance.
I seem to also recall Clerics or some healer being one of the better solo classes, I know mine wasn't, a sort of shapeshifting druid or something.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
pfff, who needs a pen... damage meter when he knows he has the biggest anyway
nowadays i only use em to see if i am actually valid as team member or not. if i wanna be carried, i ask my friends, not some randoms. and then i have to collect all loot again in the respawn times =(
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
But there shouldn't be rotations. "if one does x, y and z then they are optimal."
Combat should have surprises. A player should have to gauge the battle, make decisions in the moment.
Why, 100% agreed.
Vanguard was like this, so I'm not sure why Pantheon should be different. Games that go A,B,C or in some cases even just A repeat without end are a PITA. Dont expect me to stay.
I expect critical hits and parry events and followup abilities to that.
And I expect buffs and other effects from certain ability sequences like on a Vanguard ranger or disciple. Not on all classes, each class should be different, but some should have this.
I also hope they will again have weaknesses and exploits. So if you party with other classes, you will see effects on the mob that some abilities have put up and can then hit an ability of yours that exploits this weakness for additional effects on the mob, such as simply more damage. Again this wasnt on all Vanguard classes, only on some of them.
I also expect some classes to have point systems of various kinds, like on the Vanguard Blood Mage, Monk, Disciple and many other classes.
Likewise I for example expect that a spellcaster can still move around while spellcasting, at full speed backwards even, if they are levitating, just like it was in Vanguard. Having to stand still for that like in WoW would be no fun at all.
However as long as they're going for less abilities as in Vanguard I dont really see how that could possibly be realized.
sigh I miss Vanguard.
I know there is an unofficial server but the only time I tried it, it was so laggy I was killed to invisible enemies and couldn't get off a hit.
Yup, I miss Vanguard as well, my Disciple was awesome and the Necro was imo one of if not the best Necro class in any mmo to date.
Believe it or not, we did a whole bunch of dungeons without any type of meters, hand-holding, etc. We learned our class, we learned the dungeon, and we played the game.
DPS meters, or anything else is absolutely not necessary. It's only this surge of instant gratification seekers that think this is a must, it's not. I didn't care at all how long it took (back when I was a raid tank) to get through an encounter, its part of the game. Or was I should say.
As pointed out by these two, gotta go faster, gotta get dem loots now! Bullshit.
It's only partially their (and people like them) fault. The game studios pander to this style of play, and on a couple of levels, it makes sense. Few people have 10 hours a day to give to dungeons so they need/want to but out the grind asap so they can get to the next. I get that.
But overall, if you play an MMORPG to raid, and you consider blasting through a raid as fast as possible using every addon and crutch available, to the point you aren't even watching the fight, just watching your app to see where you need to stand next...why? Raiding is supposed to be hard, require teamwork and not be done in a 30 minute time window. Well it was supposed to be like that.
Here is an idea, just start everyone at max level, give them top tier raid kit for starter kit and let them stand around the major city telling each other how great they are. That is essentially what all this new crap comes down to.
Yeah, I can't tell you how many times I saw people day stuff like this in WoW.
I'd have people in my group bragging about how many years they've been playing, how well they know their class, and what raids they've done and when I try to tell them (as nicely and tactfully as I can) that their DPS is well below standard they say "Yeah ... well ... whatever, don't tell me how to play, I'm not some elitist that needs add ons like a crutch"
And as @BeansnBread said damage meters don't just tell you DPS. They can also tell you healing done, over healing, spell interrupts, damage taken, activity time.
All very useful stats that people can use to get better or groups can use to see who isn't pulling their weight.
But there shouldn't be rotations. "if one does x, y and z then they are optimal."
Combat should have surprises. A player should have to gauge the battle, make decisions in the moment.
Why, 100% agreed.
Vanguard was like this, so I'm not sure why Pantheon should be different. Games that go A,B,C or in some cases even just A repeat without end are a PITA. Dont expect me to stay.
I expect critical hits and parry events and followup abilities to that.
And I expect buffs and other effects from certain ability sequences like on a Vanguard ranger or disciple. Not on all classes, each class should be different, but some should have this.
I also hope they will again have weaknesses and exploits. So if you party with other classes, you will see effects on the mob that some abilities have put up and can then hit an ability of yours that exploits this weakness for additional effects on the mob, such as simply more damage. Again this wasnt on all Vanguard classes, only on some of them.
I also expect some classes to have point systems of various kinds, like on the Vanguard Blood Mage, Monk, Disciple and many other classes.
Likewise I for example expect that a spellcaster can still move around while spellcasting, at full speed backwards even, if they are levitating, just like it was in Vanguard. Having to stand still for that like in WoW would be no fun at all.
However as long as they're going for less abilities as in Vanguard I dont really see how that could possibly be realized.
sigh I miss Vanguard.
I know there is an unofficial server but the only time I tried it, it was so laggy I was killed to invisible enemies and couldn't get off a hit.
Yup, I miss Vanguard as well, my Disciple was awesome and the Necro was imo one of if not the best Necro class in any mmo to date.
Hey!
Last night I downloaded the client for the Vanguard "private Server" and guess what? It works! No lag at all, completely playable.
Not a lot of people on but from what I understand, they work on it when they can work on it. Still, the "Isle" was fine. I completely enjoyed myself and will definitely go back.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
But there shouldn't be rotations. "if one does x, y and z then they are optimal."
Combat should have surprises. A player should have to gauge the battle, make decisions in the moment.
Why, 100% agreed.
Vanguard was like this, so I'm not sure why Pantheon should be different. Games that go A,B,C or in some cases even just A repeat without end are a PITA. Dont expect me to stay.
I expect critical hits and parry events and followup abilities to that.
And I expect buffs and other effects from certain ability sequences like on a Vanguard ranger or disciple. Not on all classes, each class should be different, but some should have this.
I also hope they will again have weaknesses and exploits. So if you party with other classes, you will see effects on the mob that some abilities have put up and can then hit an ability of yours that exploits this weakness for additional effects on the mob, such as simply more damage. Again this wasnt on all Vanguard classes, only on some of them.
I also expect some classes to have point systems of various kinds, like on the Vanguard Blood Mage, Monk, Disciple and many other classes.
Likewise I for example expect that a spellcaster can still move around while spellcasting, at full speed backwards even, if they are levitating, just like it was in Vanguard. Having to stand still for that like in WoW would be no fun at all.
However as long as they're going for less abilities as in Vanguard I dont really see how that could possibly be realized.
sigh I miss Vanguard.
I know there is an unofficial server but the only time I tried it, it was so laggy I was killed to invisible enemies and couldn't get off a hit.
You probably need a better computer.
I recall that being one of the original excuses Brad gave for Vanguards poor optimization and performance.
I seem to also recall Clerics or some healer being one of the better solo classes, I know mine wasn't, a sort of shapeshifting druid or something.
It was either them or my internet. Seems to work fine now and game runs very well.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I seem to also recall Clerics or some healer being one of the better solo classes, I know mine wasn't, a sort of shapeshifting druid or something.
Why yes Clerics have been great solists, at least as long as you only consider survivability alone.
Their damage output was still mediocre though.
For example I once had a party on my Cleric with a Bear Shaman. The Bear Shaman killed consistently two mobs of the type of which I could only kill one. And Bear Shamans havent been exactly the high damage output class either.
You know, this brings up a very good point. How many of the high end raiding guilds in WoW use addons to play WoW? Addons are a crutch. If you say addons just help raids function properly than all I hear is, I don't know how to play my class, so I'm using a program to do it for me, lol.
I know this is you trying to act like you're better than other people because you are so great at gaming and all that, but it really comes off like you are insecure.
Edit: This is a pretty late edit, but I thought you were talking about damage meters, not more broadly addons. Addons are definitely a crutch for some and some of the more powerful ones in WoW (deadly boss mods, weakauras, etc.) allow people to play a much different game than the rest of us if configured properly. I remember when WeakAuras first came out and people were literally distilling their character down to a few buttons.
Still, laughing at all the dumb raiders that use addons as a crutch because they "can't play their class" is just a weird defensive thing to say.
How is that weird and defensive? I really do not get that. Addons that tell you what skill to throw, where to stand, etc. ARE in fact a crutch. Saying otherwise sounds more defensive to me, defending your (not necessarily you, but people that use addons) apparent lack of skill and reliance on a 3rd party program to make you successful...sounds like playing a shooter with Aimbot and ESP. You can't compete without help.
Again, I understand not everyone has 10 hrs a day to devote to gaming, but selling yourself off as an "elite" raider because you have programs that essentially tell you how to play reeks of bullshit.
As to the original question with regards to using Meters as a learning tool, target dummies and basic math will do the same thing, it's just harder and takes a bit longer.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
DPS meters are only useful for DPS classes, for Tanks, Healers, CC etc. they are useless distraction and utterly pointless.
I do hope you refer to just dps meters since healers aren't known for their damage capabilities. However, healing metrics is a valuable tool for healers, high raw output is how you can go with fewer healers which speeds up fights instead of just outlasting the enemy and also could take down dangerous adds quicker.
To go even further to analysis you could track the healing output when everyone had to move and which people could push out the most healing during a damage spike.
People that were low on raw healing failed on healing during movement phases and were slow on healing after a damage spike. They also focused too much on reactive healing which is a slow way of healing while good healers anticipated which people were about to take lots of damage.
Its as important for raid healers to evaluate their gameplay as it is for damage dealers.
I was refering to DPS meters, as for raw healing, that is not a true indication of healing ability, its more important when and who you heal than how much you are capable of healing, particularly in long battles where mana management is extremely important. DPS meters are worthless imo and lead people to make rash decisions based on questionable data.
I disagree, not because I think that you can skip timing and mana management but because experience as a raid leader and healing leader has taught me that if you play focused and know how to time your heals you will be on the upper half when it comes to total healing.
Mediocre and lazy players are the ones that you find in the lowest third on meters.
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
I dont think its worth the negatives but whatever, itll be what itll be.. All for in-game meters on dummies for people to try out different setups but live at boss fights just takes from the whole experience. This game is going for minimal UI hand holding, no GPS maps, no golden "!", etc. The only tools that should be available for anyone in game are the things you would expect the character to actually have in the world. A heads up display measuring every single statistic of battle is something Iron Man would have..... not Grand Magus Assblaster of the Faerthale.
Also, from what I can tell this game is bringing back the concept of controlled DPS, aggro management, proper pulling, mana management, and tanking maybe 2-3 mobs max. Meters have been used for a while now but IMO their use changed more into a negative as the games moved to more ez-mode, "accessible," room clearing rotation/ability spam design we have now.
No damage meters....I find all they do is make players hate other players because they don't do as much damage as they think they should, so that player gets blackballed.
No damage meters....I find all they do is make players hate other players because they don't do as much damage as they think they should, so that player gets blackballed.
That's why I don't like Damage meters; they enable all sorts of bad behavior. That's why I say keep the damage metrics firmly in the development phase and only on the server side. Putting that kind of information on the client side will lead to log parsers and other means to calculate everyone's DPS, and some people will use that to fuel their anti-social side.
A good community shouldn't allow for an "their DPS isn't good enough" attitude. Inclusion, not exclusion. If you think the other guy is a bad player, teach them, don't chastise them or kick them from your group.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
There is no way they will code this game so you cant see how much damage you are doing. In games like EQ and VG where this game is coming from some of the biggest complaints were when certain damage wasnt being reported. They wont forget that.
We's discussing if the game itself should report that, though.
Not if its in the message window. That one is
obviously a given. You will obviously be able to export a logfile and
compute the raids dps with an external program, just like in Vanguard and possibly also EQ (never played EQ myself).
A good community shouldn't allow for an "their DPS isn't good enough" attitude. Inclusion, not exclusion. If you think the other guy is a bad player, teach them, don't chastise them or kick them from your group.
Comments
To go even further to analysis you could track the healing output when everyone had to move and which people could push out the most healing during a damage spike.
People that were low on raw healing failed on healing during movement phases and were slow on healing after a damage spike. They also focused too much on reactive healing which is a slow way of healing while good healers anticipated which people were about to take lots of damage.
Its as important for raid healers to evaluate their gameplay as it is for damage dealers.
And the best healer in Vanguard was the one who healed the best, not who did the most damage. Theres no point in outdps-ing everybody else if the tank dies.
I know there is an unofficial server but the only time I tried it, it was so laggy I was killed to invisible enemies and couldn't get off a hit.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I recall that being one of the original excuses Brad gave for Vanguards poor optimization and performance.
I seem to also recall Clerics or some healer being one of the better solo classes, I know mine wasn't, a sort of shapeshifting druid or something.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
nowadays i only use em to see if i am actually valid as team member or not. if i wanna be carried, i ask my friends, not some randoms. and then i have to collect all loot again in the respawn times =(
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
All I want is the truth
Just gimme some truth
John Lennon
Last night I downloaded the client for the Vanguard "private Server" and guess what? It works! No lag at all, completely playable.
Not a lot of people on but from what I understand, they work on it when they can work on it. Still, the "Isle" was fine. I completely enjoyed myself and will definitely go back.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Again, I understand not everyone has 10 hrs a day to devote to gaming, but selling yourself off as an "elite" raider because you have programs that essentially tell you how to play reeks of bullshit.
As to the original question with regards to using Meters as a learning tool, target dummies and basic math will do the same thing, it's just harder and takes a bit longer.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
experience as a raid leader and healing leader has taught me that if you play focused and know how to time your heals you will be on the upper half when it comes to total healing.
Mediocre and lazy players are the ones that you find in the lowest third on meters.
Also, from what I can tell this game is bringing back the concept of controlled DPS, aggro management, proper pulling, mana management, and tanking maybe 2-3 mobs max. Meters have been used for a while now but IMO their use changed more into a negative as the games moved to more ez-mode, "accessible," room clearing rotation/ability spam design we have now.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.