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PvP and PvE, can they coexist ?
delete5230
Member EpicPosts: 7,081
Everyone knows i'm a major Vanilla WoW fan, and I wasn't around during Eq1 during the early days to know if PvP was good or not.
But here's my take on PvP regardless of being a WoW fan:
Vanilla WoW was the only mmorpg that got open world PvP right. Since then many tried and failed.
Even still that was A LOT OF LUCK that PvP fit naturally in the world. Other reasons why it fit naturally was because the world was HUGE and spread out where it could be avoided "or" you had to search it out.
Because the game was HUGE the player was capable of playing strictly PvP if wanted and barely interfering with PvE safety if that player decided to not...... HUGE world is the key to it all !
PvP fans will argue this, why ?..... Because they love PvP and they want it all the time, but in every case it leaves the strict or part time PvE players behind.
Vanilla WoW was extremely large at release. No one ever touched the size of the world, however Vanguard came close but the world had empty spots.
Think about this:
In playing Classic WoW...... Ever notice how mad PvE players get when they get attacked ?
So mad they feel compelled to tell their Guild or World chat. That's because it rare, a surprise, or 2% of a HUGE game.
Reference a movie called "Escape from New York"
Where all the murderers and violent people were placed behind the walls of NY city.
PvP was inevitable and couldn't be avoided WITHOUT SOLUTION.
But here's my take on PvP regardless of being a WoW fan:
Vanilla WoW was the only mmorpg that got open world PvP right. Since then many tried and failed.
Even still that was A LOT OF LUCK that PvP fit naturally in the world. Other reasons why it fit naturally was because the world was HUGE and spread out where it could be avoided "or" you had to search it out.
Because the game was HUGE the player was capable of playing strictly PvP if wanted and barely interfering with PvE safety if that player decided to not...... HUGE world is the key to it all !
PvP fans will argue this, why ?..... Because they love PvP and they want it all the time, but in every case it leaves the strict or part time PvE players behind.
Vanilla WoW was extremely large at release. No one ever touched the size of the world, however Vanguard came close but the world had empty spots.
Think about this:
In playing Classic WoW...... Ever notice how mad PvE players get when they get attacked ?
So mad they feel compelled to tell their Guild or World chat. That's because it rare, a surprise, or 2% of a HUGE game.
Reference a movie called "Escape from New York"
Where all the murderers and violent people were placed behind the walls of NY city.
PvP was inevitable and couldn't be avoided WITHOUT SOLUTION.
Post edited by delete5230 on
Comments
I am too tired to write a huge post explaining it ..again.it does NOT work and never will.
PVP works when everyone is there for the same reason,to pvp.Once you allow pvp to disrupt what others want from their gaming experience,you have created a toxic game.
There are a LOT of people in this world who always THINK about themselves without considering the other people/players.
Here is a thought..
Just maybe some of us do NOT care about the BIG world,we do NOT want to be looking over our shoulder,we want to game in a RELAXING atmosphere doing what WE want to do without some other player forcing his agenda on us.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
so if you have a primarily pvp game you stop at dungeons and if you have a primarily pve game with raiding you don't have pvp or just have limited pvp.
to expand on this if you have a primarily pvp game you have what i call warfronts for pve instead of raids. A warfront is just a very large open ended dungeon that plays like a pvp style campaign. it has pve objectives, but anyone can join to the limits of the technology. It has a start and a finish and everyone can contribute sort of like how pvp is.
Raids have a certain culture that grows around them and forces exclusivity of gameplay because the nature of the controlled raid environment requires extreme efficiency above all else. This is like a very vocal poison for the rest of the game and infects the rest of the game with its narrow ideas to the detriment of the rest of the game.
so you instead provide an uncontrolled environment for pve which will avoid most of the downsides while still providing interesting pve content.
I'm not a fan of PvP, just stating my opinion of how it can work if it came down to it.
However to contradict myself, I like my Rogue to be capable of PvP when i'm in the rare mood.
I love your statement about thoughtless people too..... Well worded !
Because of reasons above (must be a HUGE WORLD), this game will be a big let down to PvE fans.
They can spin the ruleset anyway they like. They can "think they found the solution" to coexist all they like...... Absolutely not !
Players have no choice but to mold their game play to design.
It will turn strictly PvP,
At a geometric rate, the PvE players will leave, turning it to deeper PvP.
But even then the other side of the PVE/PVP debate comes in and thats class balance. How often do you find a certain class is FOTM for PVP because it was buffed as underperforming in PVE or vice versa and a class nerfed because of PVP prowess that it becomes absolutely useless in PVE.
I'veseen a few games get the PVP right and the PVE right but never the class balance right when they co-exist
The only to solve this is to make the PvP zone more exciting and give different PvP rewards, if you give the same rewards for any element of a MMO be it PvP or PvE players will always go down the easy path.
I remember this was fact as clear as day.
ideally in a pvp game you still have elements of pvp in the form of realm vs realm competition even in the pve. You just wont have players fighting other players. The three opposing factions need never meet eachother in combat to have this in the game and it bridges the gap between the different playstyles.
RvR works, also GvG works.
WoW is RvR that’s why it works.
What doesn’t work in MMORPGs is the KOS type of PvP, with no rules and on top of that, FFA loot.
I just don’t get how developers don’t get it, they keep making this crap and failing miserably.
Last one is Aria.
Competitive PvP is for Mobas, not for MMORPGs.
Its only fun if:
-the fight is on equal terms.
-not zerged.
-and most important, I'm in the mood and that not too often.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
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There is a difference between RvR and faction based pvp imo. WoW is faction based pvp, not RvR. True RvR games have battlefields designated for RvR warfare with objectives and such. Faction based pvp is just open world pvp with sides and zero purpose, all of which shares that same space with PvE.
MY vanilla wow example was exactly that.
Alliance would travel all the way to the Barrens, Horde would travel all the way to Darkshire, and Southshore, and Blackrock was common grounds..... You had to work for it other than sparse random events.
You would have to put in the effort if wanted. Also easy to avoid.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.