They can co-exist and already do co-exist in most MMORPGs.
It's just the implementation is poor.
The first major hurdle that needs to be addressed is vertical progression. This is the primary reason why PvP in MMORPGs has never taken off in a big way, despite PvP being a massively popular game style in other genres. The problems that vertical progression causes with regards to this issue:
1) The power of a character (determined by how far through the vertical progression they've gotten) mostly overrules player skill. Taking away control from the player and giving it to the character sucks. It is not fun.
2) The only time it becomes balanced is when players hit the top of the power curve. This means the majority of the time, the PvP isn't fun because it's unbalanced
3) The players who play the most are not only more likely to have better skills (because they can practice more often), but the game also gives them the additional advantage of greater power. This double-whammy means that new blood to the game just gets constantly screwed over in PvP and only a small percentage of players are willing to endure the weeks/months of punishment it takes to catchup. This is the main reason why all PvP communities are small in MMORPGs.
4) Building around vertical progression usually means the game becomes about vertical progression. It's all about chasing that xp to level up to get more power. The power itself is rarely useful, just a way to measure progression. Boring! But, when designed this way, players will always seek out the fastest way to the most power. If that means raiding, PvPers will complain. If that means PvPing, PvEers will complain. It's impossible to provide multiple progression paths for multiple playstyles that all work out the same, so someone will always feel hard done by.
5) Power gaps caused by vertical progression often lead to really short times-to-kill. I know when I was playing SWTOR I could 3-shot undergeared players easily. Not only is that boring for both players, but the loser doesn't even learn anything from the experience. At least with a longer fight they'd get to fight back, observe the opponent for longer and hopefully learn something. If nothing else, simply being in the fight is fun.
There is a very good reason why the most popular PvP games in other genres are not based around vertical progression. It doesn't work in a multiplayer environment! EVER! It's a single player mechanic that needs ditching ASAP.
MMORPGs need to switch to horizontal progression. This way, the relative power of every single player is the same. The progression comes in the form of customisation / specialisation - maybe you're focused on burst DPS, whilst another is focused on AoE, whilst another is a fan of DoTs. Maybe I'm a dps/tank hybrid whilst someone else decided to go glass cannon with a bit of CC thrown in.
If you do this, you don't have to worry about power gaps, or worry that your PvPers feel forced to raid or whatever. You can more easily separate the progression paths, by putting customisations suited to PvP in the PvP areas and vice versa for PvE. Newbies don't need to worry about getting completely stomped, they just have to focus on improving their own player skill.
Now, once you've switched to horizontal progression, you can start to address the other issues involved with PvP and PvE co-existing. But, they're easy. Don't go free-for-all - if you are trying to make multiple playstyles exist side-by-side, you cannot force one playstyle on the other. Don't go full-loot or permadeath - players hate losing their stuff.
Do provide objectives to both sides. This is a common mistake - devs let you PvP but don't give you reasons to do so, other than alternative power progression. Give us meaningful objectives, like territory control, access to resources or whatever.
Do provide mutually beneficial ways of interacting. For example, going for a proper player economy, rather than loot drops. That way, PvPers rely on the PvE crafters to get their stuff, and the crafters need the PvPers to buy their stuff. But, go further than this. I loved what WAR attempted to do by making it so that you can only capture a zone when both PvE and PvP cooperate. The PvPers needed to dominate the open-world zone (take the keeps), they also needed to win in the scenarios (instanced battlegrounds), but then the PvEers also needed to complete some of the public quests and (i think, can't quite remember), dungeon clears also counted somehow. Also, if you've removed vertical progression, it means that the PvPers can also easily join you for raids and dungeons, there will be no barrier to entry. Normally, PvPers can't be arsed with the gear grind required to raid, but that barrier is gone. (I would also like to point out, I've never met a good PvPer who wasn't also really good in PvE. But, I've met tons of good raiders who were terrible at PvP).
Do provide on-ramps to both activities. This is also a very common mistake in MMORPGs. You have the leveling game, which these days is mostly solo and mostly easy as pie, then you have endgame where everything jumps up in difficulty and scale. That disconnect is huge and offputting to a lot of players.
You need to introduce your playerbase to all playstyles early on, and keep mixing it up. I firmly believe that you should offer opportunities for solo, group, raid, pve and pvp within the first 10 hours of gameplay. Condition your playerbase to expect it and they'll get used to it and stop complaining.
The reason this doesn't happen at the moment is (you guessed it....) vertical progression. You cannot have group content or PvP during the leveling part of your game if you build around vertical progression - the power gaps make finding compatible people to team up with nearly impossible, and once the main bulk of your playerbase hits endgame there just aren't enough players leveling up to make finding groups and engaging in teamwork and social play worthwhile.
So, give your players on-ramps. I'm thinking things like a raid that is incredibly easy. Why does group content always have to be really hard? Lets have some easy raids and show the players that just because its in a group, you don't have to be scared. What about varying length of content? Lets have a 10 minute dungeon as well as a 3 hour dungeon. On the PvP front, lets have a small zone for low-ranked players where they can effectively "practice" PvPing, as well as battlegrounds just for newbies. Then, when they've learned the ropes, they can join everyone else in the bigger zones. Don't just dump them in front of a skilled player to be slaughtered. That sucks.
FYI, I am both a PvPer and a raider. I enjoy both activities and am usually at the top of the power curve. So, this isn't me complaining because I got stomped by someone with better gear. Its usually me doing the stomping. I engage in both these activities because they are what provides me with a suitable challenge - I play for the "good" fight, to have fun, not necessarily to win. This is why I hate vertical progression so much - it often denies me the chance of having a good fight and it always prevents me from playing with the people I want to play with.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
I am too tired to write a huge post explaining it ..again.it does NOT work and never will.
PVP works when everyone is there for the same reason,to pvp.Once you allow pvp to disrupt what others want from their gaming experience,you have created a toxic game. There are a LOT of people in this world who always THINK about themselves without considering the other people/players.
Here is a thought..
Just maybe some of us do NOT care about the BIG world,we do NOT want to be looking over our shoulder,we want to game in a RELAXING atmosphere doing what WE want to do without some other player forcing his agenda on us.
Nice post @Wizaddry I'm not a fan of PvP, just stating my opinion of how it can work if it came down to it.
However to contradict myself, I like my Rogue to be capable of PvP when i'm in the rare mood.
I love your statement about thoughtless people too..... Well worded !
Interesting. So you play a PvP game yet you only want to PvE, so when a player acting within the confines of the rules and within the scope fo the game attacks you that player is being thoughtless? My take is, the player is not being thoughtless, he is being very thoughtful by including you in the game you made a free and informed decision to play, it is the whiner that is being thoughtless by not playing within the rules, or being upset when the game that was designed to accommodate one style of play goes against unannounced desires.
It's like you assume people can read minds....Hmmm oh yeah that guy just wants to pick flowers, let's go rumble with someone else. lol!
If you don't like PvP, don't play PvP games.
As to your OP, if WoW is your gold standard, then you have your answer.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
Do you even get attacked much in wow? I played wow 15 years ago. Since quest are faction based and usually put in your zone, I don't think people get attacked often until they reach much higher level.
I'm pretty sure the problem is with gamers, not the studios.
There are "gamers" out there who think they are entitled to play every game ever made. They buy the game knowing damn well it has PvP and spend their free time bitching on forums to nerf or remove PvP from the game.
Here's an idea if you don't like PvP:
Do not buy and play PvP games. The game wasn't made for you, cope and move on.
Don't roll a character on a PvP server. PvP server options are not for you, PvE server options ARE made for you.
I think Star Wars Galaxies did it the best. You can flag pvp on and off . So if you wanted to be a care bear you could, and I liked how you got a TEF if you were not flagged for pvp and helped someone who was. I guess I just miss that whole game.
I don't play open PVP games. That's lost money. No one in my gaming circle does either. More lost money.
Poor PvPvE game design means lost money. Every designer seems to think their concept will be the exception. Lost money. SWG seems to have done it best, but iirc Koster argued against the flagging, showing that even the top theorists run afoul of 'my design will be the exception' trope.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
I think WAR did it right; is the only game where the PvE'rs involved in PvP themselves and they were able to defeat the PvP'ers as it was a fair deal with the pvp zones and taking control of them. Now I would like a game like Vanguard, with a huge world where PvP happens naturally without affecting the game negatively. Well, I think there are some game in-developement that goes that way, with PvE servers. Perfect.
I don't play open PVP games. That's lost money. No one in my gaming circle does either. More lost money.
Poor PvPvE game design means lost money. Every designer seems to think their concept will be the exception. Lost money. SWG seems to have done it best, but iirc Koster argued against the flagging, showing that even the top theorists run afoul of 'my design will be the exception' trope.
Sometimes people make games they want to play and not just "for the lost money". It's when their bosses see other people making money that they force them to change.
I like pvp games. I'm not going to leave it out of my game just because you don't like it.
People who enjoy playing games with PvE content and wish to do so unmolested should indeed stay away from PvP games. However if you find games where no one actively tries to kill you like The Black Desert then play it like I did and enjoy the PvE systems in place and be a Trader King with a Worker Empire.
You know the recent release of Classic WoW had people flocking to the PvP servers only to find that the racials in WoW favour the Horde. The Horde outnumber Alliance in a lot of the servers and the poor Alliance are unable to muster any forces so they too quit and 'join the Horde' exacerbating the imbalance. The general discussions are about bringing some balance to the PvP population. I suppose PvP players join the side they think has better racials to get a leg up on the PvP.
I personally love PvP in MMOs, then again I grew up on cartoons and animes about people playing MMOs and having cool player v player battles or getting ganked early on in a game and hunting down the PKer that got them later. There are obvious ways to cater to PvP players such as with a separate instanced playlist for it or RvR battlegrounds like several have suggested, but I think if you want to have PvP that's available in the open world a way to do it would be how Runescape does it with the wilderness.
Assign the different zones a value that determines what the level gap between players can be before you can attack another player. Let's use WoW for an example, let's say in the Barrens you have to be within 5 levels of the person you're attacking, given its close proximity to the Horde's starting zones. That prevents people who are level 60 from coming in to gank level 20 folks trying to make their way through the Barrens. Then as you get into higher zones, you can widen that gap.
You could also restrict PvP to one or two specific zones on the map to where it's always available and flagged, but don't make it entirely necessary for PvE folks to have to go there. Instead, incentivize them to take a risk to go there, like make it easier to get rare crafting materials, or maybe traveling through there to get to another area would be faster than going around.
Also, don't do full loot PvP. The only game that really works in is Runescape. Come up with some kind of reward for PvPers like a token they can trade to a vendor for PvP gear or something.
And no, not only Vanilla WoW had the best Open World PvP out there. Lineage 2 also had awesome Open World PvP. Same goes with Aion.
And I loved the aspect of PvPvE from this 3 games, especially in Aion where I think I had the best PvPvE times in my ..history of playing MMOs.
Huge World is not the key for awesome Open World PvP. Is how dev's add PvP in their Open World game. There are many keys which are more important then "Huge World" , mainly objectives and a reason to PvP in the first place. Then goes skills balance, which if not done right, it will ruin all the PvP aspect of the game.
So yea! Give me a solid PvPvE MMORPG and I'm all for it!
Reporter: What's behind Blizzard success, and how do you make your gamers happy? Blizzard Boss: Making gamers happy is not my concern, making money.. yes!
Star War Galaxies definitely had the best set up for coexisting PvP and PvE. First of all, you could be part of a Neutral faction and you didnt need to be involved in PvP at all. However, if you did join the Rebels or the Imperials. you could flag yourself if you wished to engage in Open World PvP versus the other Faction, but you had to talk to an agent to Flag or DeFlag yourself, so you couldnt just do it on the fly to gank and then turn it off.
The NPC Stormtroopers would occasionally scan you for contraband if you were in a city controlled by them, and if you happen to be a hidden Rebel faction member it could Flag you on the spot and cause great fight or flight scenes.
You were given Factions Missions to take out rival NPCs or rival Players and you gained reputation which could be spent on higher Ranks, Gear, and even Building Blueprints, without unbalancing the Gear Economy
You could create a Faction based Player run town, which would then spawn NPC Guards that were part of your Faction and turned your town into a Haven for you Faction Members.
SWG really was decades ahead of its time, and if some AAA company was smart enough to clone it with newer Graphics, UI, and QoL upgrades the game would be freaking huge in the market. ( And No it wouldn't need to be another Star Wars MMO, it'd be very easy to repaint/relore the mechanics into a new Sci-Fi MMO without the baggage of the Star Wars community. )
Everyone knows i'm a major Vanilla WoW fan, and I wasn't around during Eq1 during the early days to know if PvP was good or not.
But here's my take on PvP regardless of being a WoW fan: Vanilla WoW was the only mmorpg that got open world PvP right. Since then many tried and failed.
Even still that was A LOT OF LUCK that PvP fit naturally in the world. Other reasons why it fit naturally was because the world was HUGE and spread out where it could be avoided "or" you had to search it out.
Because the game was HUGE the player was capable of playing strictly PvP if wanted and barely interfering with PvE safety if that player decided to not...... HUGE world is the key to it all !
PvP fans will argue this, why ?..... Because they love PvP and they want it all the time, but in every case it leaves the strict or part time PvE players behind.
Vanilla WoW was extremely large at release. No one ever touched the size of the world, however Vanguard came close but the world had empty spots.
Think about this: In playing Classic WoW...... Ever notice how mad PvE players get when they get attacked ? So mad they feel compelled to tell their Guild or World chat. That's because it rare, a surprise, or 2% of a HUGE game.
Reference a movie called "Escape from New York" Where all the murderers and violent people were placed behind the walls of NY city. PvP was inevitable and couldn't be avoided WITHOUT SOLUTION.
First, I would just like to say you were wrong about the open world pvp only being done right by WoW. That statement almost made me not want to continue. I played a game called Conquer Online, before it became p2w heavy it was by far a greater open world pvp exp, imo. That being said, im a real pvp fan, and Conquer Online had 0 safe zones and there was very few places 1 could hide (no big cities or guards to hide behind. This game has been going strong for just as long as WoW.
Now for the topic, they cannot co exist nicely in a open world, reason, you cant please both sides at that point. When a pvper wants to kill people in the open world, they generally goto a spot where pve players are. Even when RvR is introduced into open world, the pvpers still camp questers. However, can a game have good instanced pvp and good instanced pve, heck ya, WoW prooved that xpac after xpac.
PVE players get mad when ganked, pvp players get mad when they have to pve to get BiS gear. People say world pvp is dead in retail which is so not true. I engage in it everday I log in, unfortunatly people can opt out with warmode which bothers me. My server was a pvp server, war mode took that away. But anyways, even last night for a hour or so they ally was hell bent on purging us in Naj, good times watchin them run for the hills .
Plus, if your a true vanilla person, you know why open world pvp was a thing, it was not because it was done right, it was because of the ranking system. You had to farm HKs on a constant level for a title. That was all the incentive needed, was a carrot on a stick. It wasnt the pvp itself, but the system they had in place.
I don't see it as a problem of PvE vs. PvP. I see it as PvP vs. RPG. Player skill vs. character skill. The basic paradigms of the RPG are not conducive to fair and equitable PvP. Gear and stats, which are a trademark of role-playing games, create a sense of unfairness in PvP. Water that down to horizontal progression and you diminish the reward effect of character building. Water down or even remove character stats and you are no longer playing a typical and beloved RPG. Try to focus on both and you end up angering both types of players. They are not compatible, they compete against each other and create bad feelings in the process. If you want both in the same game, then have them on separate servers with separate rules or have both on the same server, but still in separate zones with separate rules. Otherwise it will be mediocre at best and turn off most of your customers while you're at it.
Define coexist....open world or just in the game? Because I think DAoC and Warhammer Online proved they could certainly coexist in a game.
Dont think WHO is a good point making game for this topic......I loved it, but how fast the doors closed, I wouldnt say they had a good mix.
So because it got shut down it is not a valid example for this topic? Kind of short-sighted, isn't it?
Imagine if we wrote history books with this logic....
The only Pvp I've really liked was in SWG, I think they did it with an eye towards the best of both worlds. It was all faction based and for open world it was consensual; you had to flag yourself for it, plus they had zoned Pvp area's and once in awhile in the early years the GM's would step in and create mixed PvE/PvP warfare zones in the city's.
Yes, Lineage proves that. Only kids that only played and grew with bad pvp implementations like in WoW and its clones don't know how a well designed open world pvp system can work together with open world pve.
PVP works in Wow classic on PVP servers because the implementation was flawless. Classic wow was developed but a group of brilliant motivated people, that thought through every aspect of game down to the tiniest detail. Its unlikely we will ever see something like it again, not one MMO has even come close.
Of course PVP/PVE can coexist. I played a number of old MMOs with open world PVP, where you'd be killing mobs and always had the fear of some "bandits" from other factions (players) coming to kill you and take your gear.
Believe me, you'd have lots of infuriating moments where some dudes would come and just kill you, or even some isolated sniper coming for an attack on your faction base. That said, in retrospective, those moments were the most fun of the game. I still remember a bunch of guys getting together and planning a strategy on a revenge assault of the enemy base, and going there, ganking everyone. Even the newbies came along and shot the other players.
But of course it's not for everyone, which is why I understand the need for PVE only servers.
That said, with the advent of "theme park" MMOs basically created with so called care bears in mind, even the PVP servers meant that PVP was restricted to some area, which killed part of the magic of PVP servers and MMOs in general.
I think its sad because at the end of the day, what made the magic of MMOs was the interaction with other players. The fact that in the old days, whether in a medieval or sci fi MMO, you could go and raid the enemy territory, was amazing.
They've even dispensed with things like a "world/general" chat in many theme park MMOs, whereas in the old games you could talk with anyone of any faction on the general channel. You had a general channel, a faction channel, etc. People would say: "Alright faction, raid on faction XYZ, every volunteer go there" and war would happen.
Sure, they can coexist. And Blizzard handled it perfectly.
Want to PvP? Join a PvP server. Want to PvE? Join a PvE server.
One allows random ganks while levelling, one requires you to flag for PvP. If you want to level/quest unhindered, and you join a PvP server that's your own fault. End of discussion, you're welcome.
PS: Raiding is cool and all, but to play a game that's lore literally revolved around fighting and faction conflict and complain PvP at all is the lamest shit ever. That's great that you spent X hours raiding to acquire your gear, that's dedication and respectable. But to do all that just to have a geared character that can't do anything other than have flashy gear/items seems a waste to me. Use that gear to kick someone ass.
Edit: PSS: Most of my interactions in the recent WoW classic release on PvP servers and levelling have been lovely. For the most part random senseless killing is rare. It happens, but it doesn't run rampant.. So.. yeah. My 2cents. Undead Rogue on Kromkrush here.
Comments
It's like you assume people can read minds....Hmmm oh yeah that guy just wants to pick flowers, let's go rumble with someone else. lol!
If you don't like PvP, don't play PvP games.
As to your OP, if WoW is your gold standard, then you have your answer.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
There are "gamers" out there who think they are entitled to play every game ever made. They buy the game knowing damn well it has PvP and spend their free time bitching on forums to nerf or remove PvP from the game.
Here's an idea if you don't like PvP:
Do not buy and play PvP games. The game wasn't made for you, cope and move on.
Don't roll a character on a PvP server. PvP server options are not for you, PvE server options ARE made for you.
Problem solved.
Age of Wushu
EVE
Poor PvPvE game design means lost money. Every designer seems to think their concept will be the exception. Lost money. SWG seems to have done it best, but iirc Koster argued against the flagging, showing that even the top theorists run afoul of 'my design will be the exception' trope.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
I like pvp games. I'm not going to leave it out of my game just because you don't like it.
Strictly pve game? I won’t play. Lost money.
PVE only players should never ever, ever ever ever ever ever come by PVP... okay?
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
You know the recent release of Classic WoW had people flocking to the PvP servers only to find that the racials in WoW favour the Horde. The Horde outnumber Alliance in a lot of the servers and the poor Alliance are unable to muster any forces so they too quit and 'join the Horde' exacerbating the imbalance. The general discussions are about bringing some balance to the PvP population. I suppose PvP players join the side they think has better racials to get a leg up on the PvP.
Compare to legend of aria I got ganked multiples times everyday.
And no, not only Vanilla WoW had the best Open World PvP out there. Lineage 2 also had awesome Open World PvP. Same goes with Aion.
And I loved the aspect of PvPvE from this 3 games, especially in Aion where I think I had the best PvPvE times in my ..history of playing MMOs.
Huge World is not the key for awesome Open World PvP. Is how dev's add PvP in their Open World game. There are many keys which are more important then "Huge World" , mainly objectives and a reason to PvP in the first place. Then goes skills balance, which if not done right, it will ruin all the PvP aspect of the game.
So yea! Give me a solid PvPvE MMORPG and I'm all for it!
Reporter: What's behind Blizzard success, and how do you make your gamers happy?
Blizzard Boss: Making gamers happy is not my concern, making money.. yes!
The NPC Stormtroopers would occasionally scan you for contraband if you were in a city controlled by them, and if you happen to be a hidden Rebel faction member it could Flag you on the spot and cause great fight or flight scenes.
You were given Factions Missions to take out rival NPCs or rival Players and you gained reputation which could be spent on higher Ranks, Gear, and even Building Blueprints, without unbalancing the Gear Economy
You could create a Faction based Player run town, which would then spawn NPC Guards that were part of your Faction and turned your town into a Haven for you Faction Members.
SWG really was decades ahead of its time, and if some AAA company was smart enough to clone it with newer Graphics, UI, and QoL upgrades the game would be freaking huge in the market. ( And No it wouldn't need to be another Star Wars MMO, it'd be very easy to repaint/relore the mechanics into a new Sci-Fi MMO without the baggage of the Star Wars community. )
Mess with the best, Die like the rest
Now for the topic, they cannot co exist nicely in a open world, reason, you cant please both sides at that point. When a pvper wants to kill people in the open world, they generally goto a spot where pve players are. Even when RvR is introduced into open world, the pvpers still camp questers. However, can a game have good instanced pvp and good instanced pve, heck ya, WoW prooved that xpac after xpac.
PVE players get mad when ganked, pvp players get mad when they have to pve to get BiS gear. People say world pvp is dead in retail which is so not true. I engage in it everday I log in, unfortunatly people can opt out with warmode which bothers me. My server was a pvp server, war mode took that away. But anyways, even last night for a hour or so they ally was hell bent on purging us in Naj, good times watchin them run for the hills
Plus, if your a true vanilla person, you know why open world pvp was a thing, it was not because it was done right, it was because of the ranking system. You had to farm HKs on a constant level for a title. That was all the incentive needed, was a carrot on a stick. It wasnt the pvp itself, but the system they had in place.
So because it got shut down it is not a valid example for this topic? Kind of short-sighted, isn't it? Imagine if we wrote history books with this logic....
SWG (pre-cu) - AoC (pre-f2p) - PotBS (pre-boarder) - DDO - LotRO (pre-f2p) - STO (pre-f2p) - GnH (beta tester) - SWTOR - Neverwinter
Believe me, you'd have lots of infuriating moments where some dudes would come and just kill you, or even some isolated sniper coming for an attack on your faction base. That said, in retrospective, those moments were the most fun of the game. I still remember a bunch of guys getting together and planning a strategy on a revenge assault of the enemy base, and going there, ganking everyone. Even the newbies came along and shot the other players.
But of course it's not for everyone, which is why I understand the need for PVE only servers.
That said, with the advent of "theme park" MMOs basically created with so called care bears in mind, even the PVP servers meant that PVP was restricted to some area, which killed part of the magic of PVP servers and MMOs in general.
I think its sad because at the end of the day, what made the magic of MMOs was the interaction with other players. The fact that in the old days, whether in a medieval or sci fi MMO, you could go and raid the enemy territory, was amazing.
They've even dispensed with things like a "world/general" chat in many theme park MMOs, whereas in the old games you could talk with anyone of any faction on the general channel. You had a general channel, a faction channel, etc. People would say: "Alright faction, raid on faction XYZ, every volunteer go there" and war would happen.
Good old times.
Want to PvP? Join a PvP server.
Want to PvE? Join a PvE server.
One allows random ganks while levelling, one requires you to flag for PvP. If you want to level/quest unhindered, and you join a PvP server that's your own fault. End of discussion, you're welcome.
PS: Raiding is cool and all, but to play a game that's lore literally revolved around fighting and faction conflict and complain PvP at all is the lamest shit ever. That's great that you spent X hours raiding to acquire your gear, that's dedication and respectable. But to do all that just to have a geared character that can't do anything other than have flashy gear/items seems a waste to me. Use that gear to kick someone ass.
Edit: PSS: Most of my interactions in the recent WoW classic release on PvP servers and levelling have been lovely. For the most part random senseless killing is rare. It happens, but it doesn't run rampant.. So.. yeah. My 2cents. Undead Rogue on Kromkrush here.