Newbie ships are still blown out in High Sec, and generally those players are not part of a player Corporation, so the war dec nerfing is irrelevant for those players.
Most gankers don’t care losing a ship if that means making the life miserable for new comers, they do it just for the lolz.
To them losing a ship is not a great loss as they are usually veterans with Billions in their banks. But for a newbie losing their first expensive ship they work so hard to acquire, it’s just too much.
Newbie ships are still blown out in High Sec, and generally those players are not part of a player Corporation, so the war dec nerfing is irrelevant for those players.
Most gankers don’t care losing a ship if that means making the life miserable for new comers, they do it just for the lolz.
To them losing a ship is not a great loss as they are usually veterans with Billions in their banks. But for a newbie losing their first expensive ship they work so hard to acquire, it’s just too much.
CCP needs to fix that as a priority.
You are making accusations about the game that make no sense. New players cannot fly Freighters, just for the record, tech I ships are not expensive, they are cheap and disposable for a reason, even the tech I battleships which is why even F2P players can use them. What type of ships are you even talking about that new players are losing that would cause them to quit?
I think you don’t realise what ‘expensive’ means for a new player, and CCP neither. That’s the problem with EVE.
What is expendable for a veteran player, it’s all they have for a newby.
High Sec should be a safe ‘tutorial’ zone for newbies to learn the game, not a playground for veterans to grief new players just for the lolz.
Everything in Eve is meant to be destroyed at some point, but you still have not said which ships, or types of ships you think are so expensive, that new players are leaving the game because of.
Cruisers are expensive for a newby, an hauler like the Bestower is expensive.
And by newby I don’t mean someone who played a week, but someone who played few months, enough to save enough money and SP to buy a Cruiser and lose it almost immediately.
Cruisers are expensive for a newby, an hauler like the Bestower is expensive.
And by newby I don’t mean someone who played a week, but someone who played few months, enough to save enough money and SP to buy a Cruiser and lose it almost immediately.
I recall my first month in EVE (before fire) I had run missions relentlessly saving up for a shiny new Battle Cruiser, fitted with best T1 gear my bare minimum skills would allow me to fit, then tackled my first level 3 mission....and got blown out of space.
Yep, did all the wrong things of course, but hey, I was new, mistakes were sure to be made.
So I was faced with stepping back, running another month of lower tier missions just to repurchase my Drake....which could have made me quit right there.
But being resourceful and somewhat of a slacker I took the most reasonable course of action....I bought a billion ISK and no more problem.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Fyi as beta tester of eve, the game wasn't suppose to be cutthroat, in the early days, the dev usually send out warning to player who scammed other player, and after awhile they just decided that their mmo should evolve into whatever the player wants, apparently warning players cost a lot of money and time. So the "kinder eve" did exist, but I don't think they will make that anymore.
Cruisers are expensive for a newby, an hauler like the Bestower is expensive.
And by newby I don’t mean someone who played a week, but someone who played few months, enough to save enough money and SP to buy a Cruiser and lose it almost immediately.
I recall my first month in EVE (before fire) I had run missions relentlessly saving up for a shiny new Battle Cruiser, fitted with best T1 gear my bare minimum skills would allow me to fit, then tackled my first level 3 mission....and got blown out of space.
Yep, did all the wrong things of course, but hey, I was new, mistakes were sure to be made.
So I was faced with stepping back, running another month of lower tier missions just to repurchase my Drake....which could have made me quit right there.
But being resourceful and somewhat of a slacker I took the most reasonable course of action....I bought a billion ISK and no more problem.
Yep that’s what all newbies go through, but unlike you, most of them just quit instead of buying ISKs.
It can be argued that before buying a Drake someone has to learn what to do with it. But the problem is that after months of boring mining and running low tier mission with shit rewards, it’s only natural you can’t wait to spend all your hard earned ISKs to buy a shiny new Cruiser and go for a ride.
That’s the problem with EVE, newbies don’t have a chance to learn the game progressively. They are faced with a tedious slow grind at the beginning, barely acceptable. And as soon as they have the chance to start enjoying the game by being able to buy the first decent ship, they lose everything they worked for almost instantly.
The game it’s way too hard and unforgiving at the beginning. Once you have few Billions on the side it’s fine. Problem is getting those few Billions first before deciding to quit.
I quit Eve 3 different times because of the ganking, why should one pay a monthly fee to get ganked was how it finally sunk in and quit for good.
The funny thing was at one time Eve wasn't as bad as it is now. The first 3 years of the game was really different. But now it's just too late to change it. The player base in the game would all freak out if you made it more PVE friendly.
I think you don’t realise what ‘expensive’ means for a new player, and CCP neither. That’s the problem with EVE.
What is expendable for a veteran player, it’s all they have for a newby.
High Sec should be a safe ‘tutorial’ zone for newbies to learn the game, not a playground for veterans to grief new players just for the lolz.
It's a paradox.I think developers try to hold as true to the 'sandbox' rules as possible by allowing people to do anything they want and attempting to control that with consequences. It's always a difficult thing to balance because nothing is permanent. You don't go to prison or get a real cash fine or anything like that and with the ability to create a new character or have alts all over able to take the punishment, it's impossible to truly impose any kind of actual consequence onto the actual perpetrator. So inevitably we end up with strict, hard coded rules preventing people from even attempting these acts which in the end removes the freedom of choice sandbox should be allowing.
People say, "Being sandbox doesn't mean you have to have pvp!" and no, of course it doesn't. It also doesn't mean you have to be able to craft anything either, but the more options and more lifelike the game, the more sandbox it is.
Murder and player on player combat isn't the only form of PVP either. People ask for a game that their actions will shape the world around them. Pvp is not only the easiest to implement it's also the most impacting way to do it. Anything that affects the world will affect another player, hence it's still pvp.
In the end I think as much as players want to affect the world around them, they don't really want the world to affect them as much as combat pvp does.
I quit Eve 3 different times because of the ganking, why should one pay a monthly fee to get ganked was how it finally sunk in and quit for good.
The funny thing was at one time Eve wasn't as bad as it is now. The first 3 years of the game was really different. But now it's just too late to change it. The player base in the game would all freak out if you made it more PVE friendly.
The irony is that the place where PVP should happen, Null Sec, is the safest place on EVE, because it’s totally empty.
So where are all those hardcore PVPers at? CCP should ask themselves that question. Those players should be blowing each other up in Null Sec, but they aren’t, why is that?
CCP made the game increasingly PVP centred, but there is clearly not enough players who wants that, just a loud minority which dictate how the game should be run.
Ganking and getting ganked is part of the game sweethearts. Get over it and plan on loosing whatever you undock with or go back to playing WoW. That's why I learned industry and build my own ships..... freakin' duh.
For a good eight years now high sec has been a more dangerous place to live than null sec, which is absolutely absurd and backwards.
I've been saying for years that their stance in high sec has been too harsh. Currently, it's very very easy for a ship worth less than a million ISK to erase a ship worth 25+ million ISK with no chance of survival or fighting back. Not only this, but the aggressor will get paid out their insurance money, wait off their aggression timer and do it again and again all day.
If this is a new players first experience in the game, dying immediately and often to high sec hunting patrols that don't care if the police blow their ship up, then you've got a bad New Player Experience.
This is coming from a hardcore PVP'er. It's pretty much all I do in EVE is look for things to shoot in the face and then post dank memes in local as they whine about dying and I, yes even I, think that EVE is too hardcore.
They should have dialed this shit back a decade ago while their subscriber numbers were plummeting, but they plunged ahead like nothing in the game was wrong.
Empire Space should never be 100% safe, but it also shouldn't be a total wrecking ground for anything moving like it currently is.
If there was good pve content and a safer high sec there would be alot more players out there mining and feeding the economy resources. but as of now people who are just trying out the game dont have the patience to try and learn a very complex game while being ganked and lose ships constantly by people who have so much and are just bored.
shouldnt the real threat be in low/null sec instead of high sec? some how it ended up the other way around.
idk op number one the what the heck is this "autopilot " . whoever flys around on autopilot deserve whatever they get . 10 yrs in game not once have i used auto nor have i been ganked in high sec . do i go afk ? no .. do i autopilot to jita with plex and shinies in the hold ? no . do i run through systems i know are camped by code and buddies ? no . do i keep all these numbnuts on contact list set to orange or red so i see them enter local ? why of course i do . and i have passed on these habits to many a new player i meet
High sec is what you make of it . it is a sandbox and there should be a threat regardless , how much of a threat is up to the player . most of it is common sense and has no effect of new player retention . if anything it keeps players in the game who don't want their hands held and its always been that way .
shouldnt the real threat be in low/null sec instead of high sec? some how it ended up the other way around.
CCP have been told about this problem repeatedly, but they never done anything about it for fear of upsetting the veterans.
This is what’s killing EVE, but CCP and the veterans are too to stubborn to acknowledge it.
HighSec should be high security, and NullSec no security. How difficult is to understand that?
Weird. I said how players isbox and exploit concord to harass new players was killing the game and I was LoL'ed into oblivion here.
Yeah. Go, bump, save location, catalist one shot a mining barge.
Bam. New player giving up. A fat nerd laughing as tossing someone out of their game is a good thing.
I never got it. And I never will. And I'm a full loot pvp hardcore player.
But EvE is another level. Those people they are exploiting the high sec mechanics to harass.
Yeah basically this. CCP should read this cause it’s exactly what happens to 90% of new players. They should get their heads out of the veterans asses and start doing something about it.
I am confident Pearl Abyss will pick on it, they did the same with BDO. They nerfed PVP and ganking in particular for the Western version of the game.
Funny how an Asian developer is the one that gets PVP right in the West, since over there MMORPGs focus heavily on hardcore PVP.
Veterans is the reason CCP had to sell EVE, and still they keep catering for them.
shouldnt the real threat be in low/null sec instead of high sec? some how it ended up the other way around.
CCP have been told about this problem repeatedly, but they never done anything about it for fear of upsetting the veterans.
This is what’s killing EVE, but CCP and the veterans are too to stubborn to acknowledge it.
HighSec should be high security, and NullSec no security. How difficult is to understand that?
Weird. I said how players isbox and exploit concord to harass new players was killing the game and I was LoL'ed into oblivion here.
Yeah. Go, bump, save location, catalist one shot a mining barge.
Bam. New player giving up. A fat nerd laughing as tossing someone out of their game is a good thing.
I never got it. And I never will. And I'm a full loot pvp hardcore player.
But EvE is another level. Those people they are exploiting the high sec mechanics to harass.
Yeah basically this. CCP should read this cause it’s exactly what happens to 90% of new players. They should get their heads out of the veterans asses and start doing something about it.
I am confident Pearl Abyss will pick on it, they did the same with BDO. They nerfed PVP and ganking in particular for the Western version of the game.
Funny how an Asian developer is the one that gets PVP right in the West, since over there MMORPGs focus heavily on hardcore PVP.
Veterans is the reason CCP had to sell EVE, and still they keep catering for them.
They fixed BDO pvp gankfest...? When?
Sorry mate far from the truth.
Did you play the Korean version? Do it, and then let me know if you think PVP in their version is the same as ours.
My point was that even though BDO was originally designed as an hardcore PVP game for the Asian market, Pearl Abyss had the ability to understand that it wouldn’t have worked the same way in the West, so they nerfed it, quite a lot.
CCP being a Western Company, didn’t manage to acknowledge the problem, even though they should know the western market better than Asians. They still think there is a market for unrestricted PVP. There isn’t.
Name one FFA MMO that has been a success. Apart from EVE, none. And EVE wasn’t so hardcore few years back, somehow it got even harder.
For a game like EVE to work you need plenty of Carebears, which are the obvious prey for most hardcore PVPers. But if you scare them off before they can properly understand the game and deal with possible loss of property, they will quit. No prey for the predators means no game.
What Pearl Abyss might do is certainly a question. Whether they will do anything fundamental with "EVE" - as it is - not sure.
EVE occupies an EVE shaped niche. Its an mmo - a niche; SF rather than fantasy which tends to be more niche; more of a grand strategy game than a shooter - another niche; and its PvP which is niche when it comes to mmo games but so are CoD, BF and a whole host of other - non-mmo - games.
It is/has also been a sucessful game. It has outlasted many others - a huge list; maintained a decent population and has made national news across the world.
If Pearl Abyss tried to alter it in any major way though - and I am not talking about tweaks - making it kinder or harsher - introducing a full P2W cash shop say ...... I think that could go badly. And the backlash could - because of previous national news coverage - could taint the brand.
More likely - I think - would be tweak things and launch EVE Unchained - or Black EVE Online - perhaps; especially in markets in which there is no EVE first. Same assets and engine etc. but implemented differently - and with a cash shop of course. And of course EVE for Mobile.
shouldnt the real threat be in low/null sec instead of high sec? some how it ended up the other way around.
CCP have been told about this problem repeatedly, but they never done anything about it for fear of upsetting the veterans.
This is what’s killing EVE, but CCP and the veterans are too to stubborn to acknowledge it.
HighSec should be high security, and NullSec no security. How difficult is to understand that?
Weird. I said how players isbox and exploit concord to harass new players was killing the game and I was LoL'ed into oblivion here.
Yeah. Go, bump, save location, catalist one shot a mining barge.
Bam. New player giving up. A fat nerd laughing as tossing someone out of their game is a good thing.
I never got it. And I never will. And I'm a full loot pvp hardcore player.
But EvE is another level. Those people they are exploiting the high sec mechanics to harass.
Yeah basically this. CCP should read this cause it’s exactly what happens to 90% of new players. They should get their heads out of the veterans asses and start doing something about it.
I am confident Pearl Abyss will pick on it, they did the same with BDO. They nerfed PVP and ganking in particular for the Western version of the game.
Funny how an Asian developer is the one that gets PVP right in the West, since over there MMORPGs focus heavily on hardcore PVP.
Veterans is the reason CCP had to sell EVE, and still they keep catering for them.
They fixed BDO pvp gankfest...? When?
Sorry mate far from the truth.
Did you play the Korean version? Do it, and then let me know if you think PVP in their version is the same as ours.
My point was that even though BDO was originally designed as an hardcore PVP game for the Asian market, Pearl Abyss had the ability to understand that it wouldn’t have worked the same way in the West, so they nerfed it, quite a lot.
CCP being a Western Company, didn’t manage to acknowledge the problem, even though they should know the western market better than Asians. They still think there is a market for unrestricted PVP. There isn’t.
Name one FFA MMO that has been a success. Apart from EVE, none. And EVE wasn’t so hardcore few years back, somehow it got even harder.
For a game like EVE to work you need plenty of Carebears, which are the obvious prey for most hardcore PVPers. But if you scare them off before they can properly understand the game and deal with possible loss of property, they will quit. No prey for the predators means no game.
Not saying they didnt change the PvP mechanics. Nor saying the western release is more hardcore in that matter.
I'm just saying that "fixed" is not the right term.
And when did I use the term ‘fixed’? As far as I know I used the term ‘nerfed’.
Plus, I don’t want the ganking to be fixed, ganking is integral part of a PVP MMO design. I just don’t want ganking to take over the whole game like it happened to EVE in the last few years.
EVE used to be great for Corporations wars. That should be the focus of the game, not ganking. Ganking should be a niche gameplay within the game, not the primary type of PVP. If everyone is a Pirate, no one is a Pirate.
So with CCP reporting to new masters who will be very interested in quickly making back their $425M investment they might consider dialing back on the aggression a bit.
I'm talking about high sec in particular, over the years it became increasingly more dangerous either from CCP making it easier to gank with low risk or players being bored enough to figure new ways around the existing controls.
I believe Pearl Abyss would see more PVE oriented players return if high sec was made safer or the risk / cost / penalties to suicide gank were greatly increased.
Doesn't have to be eliminated, just very strongly discouraged. Yeah I know, many will argue against, say how "easy" it is to avoid.
For newer players its not and even seasoned vets get unpleasantly surprised from time to time and pay dearly for it.
Also, the current design inspires too much paranoia, can't move anything thru HS on autopilot, not even a shuttle without someone trying to wack it for lulz.
I learned how to stay safe but all of the extra effort to do so (which entirely falls on the "gankee") grows very wearisome, too much so, at least for me which is why I spent most of my time in null sec in later years where intel networks were better and you could clearly see the bad guys coming.
Their player base would freak out if Eve became a kinder gentle game.
So with CCP reporting to new masters who will be very interested in quickly making back their $425M investment they might consider dialing back on the aggression a bit.
I'm talking about high sec in particular, over the years it became increasingly more dangerous either from CCP making it easier to gank with low risk or players being bored enough to figure new ways around the existing controls.
I believe Pearl Abyss would see more PVE oriented players return if high sec was made safer or the risk / cost / penalties to suicide gank were greatly increased.
Doesn't have to be eliminated, just very strongly discouraged. Yeah I know, many will argue against, say how "easy" it is to avoid.
For newer players its not and even seasoned vets get unpleasantly surprised from time to time and pay dearly for it.
Also, the current design inspires too much paranoia, can't move anything thru HS on autopilot, not even a shuttle without someone trying to wack it for lulz.
I learned how to stay safe but all of the extra effort to do so (which entirely falls on the "gankee") grows very wearisome, too much so, at least for me which is why I spent most of my time in null sec in later years where intel networks were better and you could clearly see the bad guys coming.
Their player base would freak out if Eve became a kinder gentle game.
They been steadily draining players who certainly aren't all off enjoying Star Citizen or ED.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Comments
Most gankers don’t care losing a ship if that means making the life miserable for new comers, they do it just for the lolz.
To them losing a ship is not a great loss as they are usually veterans with Billions in their banks.
But for a newbie losing their first expensive ship they work so hard to acquire, it’s just too much.
CCP needs to fix that as a priority.
That’s the problem with EVE.
What is expendable for a veteran player, it’s all they have for a newby.
High Sec should be a safe ‘tutorial’ zone for newbies to learn the game, not a playground for veterans to grief new players just for the lolz.
And by newby I don’t mean someone who played a week, but someone who played few months, enough to save enough money and SP to buy a Cruiser and lose it almost immediately.
Yep, did all the wrong things of course, but hey, I was new, mistakes were sure to be made.
So I was faced with stepping back, running another month of lower tier missions just to repurchase my Drake....which could have made me quit right there.
But being resourceful and somewhat of a slacker I took the most reasonable course of action....I bought a billion ISK and no more problem.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
It can be argued that before buying a Drake someone has to learn what to do with it.
But the problem is that after months of boring mining and running low tier mission with shit rewards, it’s only natural you can’t wait to spend all your hard earned ISKs to buy a shiny new Cruiser and go for a ride.
That’s the problem with EVE, newbies don’t have a chance to learn the game progressively.
They are faced with a tedious slow grind at the beginning, barely acceptable.
And as soon as they have the chance to start enjoying the game by being able to buy the first decent ship, they lose everything they worked for almost instantly.
The game it’s way too hard and unforgiving at the beginning.
Once you have few Billions on the side it’s fine.
Problem is getting those few Billions first before deciding to quit.
That’s what CCP needs to fix.
People say, "Being sandbox doesn't mean you have to have pvp!" and no, of course it doesn't. It also doesn't mean you have to be able to craft anything either, but the more options and more lifelike the game, the more sandbox it is.
Murder and player on player combat isn't the only form of PVP either. People ask for a game that their actions will shape the world around them. Pvp is not only the easiest to implement it's also the most impacting way to do it. Anything that affects the world will affect another player, hence it's still pvp.
In the end I think as much as players want to affect the world around them, they don't really want the world to affect them as much as combat pvp does.
So where are all those hardcore PVPers at?
CCP should ask themselves that question.
Those players should be blowing each other up in Null Sec, but they aren’t, why is that?
CCP made the game increasingly PVP centred, but there is clearly not enough players who wants that, just a loud minority which dictate how the game should be run.
I've been saying for years that their stance in high sec has been too harsh. Currently, it's very very easy for a ship worth less than a million ISK to erase a ship worth 25+ million ISK with no chance of survival or fighting back. Not only this, but the aggressor will get paid out their insurance money, wait off their aggression timer and do it again and again all day.
If this is a new players first experience in the game, dying immediately and often to high sec hunting patrols that don't care if the police blow their ship up, then you've got a bad New Player Experience.
This is coming from a hardcore PVP'er. It's pretty much all I do in EVE is look for things to shoot in the face and then post dank memes in local as they whine about dying and I, yes even I, think that EVE is too hardcore.
They should have dialed this shit back a decade ago while their subscriber numbers were plummeting, but they plunged ahead like nothing in the game was wrong.
Empire Space should never be 100% safe, but it also shouldn't be a total wrecking ground for anything moving like it currently is.
This is what’s killing EVE, but CCP and the veterans are too to stubborn to acknowledge it.
HighSec should be high security, and NullSec no security.
How difficult is to understand that?
CCP should read this cause it’s exactly what happens to 90% of new players.
They should get their heads out of the veterans asses and start doing something about it.
I am confident Pearl Abyss will pick on it, they did the same with BDO.
They nerfed PVP and ganking in particular for the Western version of the game.
Funny how an Asian developer is the one that gets PVP right in the West, since over there MMORPGs focus heavily on hardcore PVP.
Veterans is the reason CCP had to sell EVE, and still they keep catering for them.
Do it, and then let me know if you think PVP in their version is the same as ours.
My point was that even though BDO was originally designed as an hardcore PVP game for the Asian market, Pearl Abyss had the ability to understand that it wouldn’t have worked the same way in the West, so they nerfed it, quite a lot.
CCP being a Western Company, didn’t manage to acknowledge the problem, even though they should know the western market better than Asians.
They still think there is a market for unrestricted PVP.
There isn’t.
Name one FFA MMO that has been a success.
Apart from EVE, none.
And EVE wasn’t so hardcore few years back, somehow it got even harder.
For a game like EVE to work you need plenty of Carebears, which are the obvious prey for most hardcore PVPers.
But if you scare them off before they can properly understand the game and deal with possible loss of property, they will quit.
No prey for the predators means no game.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Well, maybe Not kind or gentle, but surely EVE used to be well balanced between Carebears and PVPers.
For some reason in recent times, the game got really unfriendly for Carebears and new players.
They had the right formula, but somehow they lost the way.
EVE became just like another of those generic FFA games no one wants to play.
EVE occupies an EVE shaped niche. Its an mmo - a niche; SF rather than fantasy which tends to be more niche; more of a grand strategy game than a shooter - another niche; and its PvP which is niche when it comes to mmo games but so are CoD, BF and a whole host of other - non-mmo - games.
It is/has also been a sucessful game. It has outlasted many others - a huge list; maintained a decent population and has made national news across the world.
If Pearl Abyss tried to alter it in any major way though - and I am not talking about tweaks - making it kinder or harsher - introducing a full P2W cash shop say ...... I think that could go badly. And the backlash could - because of previous national news coverage - could taint the brand.
More likely - I think - would be tweak things and launch EVE Unchained - or Black EVE Online - perhaps; especially in markets in which there is no EVE first. Same assets and engine etc. but implemented differently - and with a cash shop of course. And of course EVE for Mobile.
As far as I know I used the term ‘nerfed’.
Plus, I don’t want the ganking to be fixed, ganking is integral part of a PVP MMO design.
I just don’t want ganking to take over the whole game like it happened to EVE in the last few years.
EVE used to be great for Corporations wars.
That should be the focus of the game, not ganking.
Ganking should be a niche gameplay within the game, not the primary type of PVP.
If everyone is a Pirate, no one is a Pirate.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon