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"Old school" mmo's inherently social? Some thoughts after Classic WoW.
Aenghas
Member UncommonPosts: 116
Following Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen for a while now something I've seen come up a lot is a belief that older mmo's were inherently social and that returning to "old school" values will revive the "lost"social components of the genre.
Firstly my position is that mmo's have always been and continue to be as social as a person wants to make them. I've been involved in busy guilds in games people generally point the finger at as being on-rails themepark games responsible for dumbing down the genre and I spent a lot of my time while in game chatting on Skype or Discord. I've played sandbox games where people claim you can't accomplish anything on your own as a lone wolf because I was more focused on enjoying the world or game mechanics than making friends. I've also shifted between all kinds of different social phases between those poles through different kinds of games.
After playing Classic something I noticed was that initially there was a large surge in people being more social. People chatted in dungeons and gave advice and traded crafted goods in low level towns. It was nice, only it was a construction built of people's desire to recreate what they believed the good old days were like. That is fine though and I'd like to see more of that. Sadly as the weeks have gone by it has dwindled, on the server I was on at least. Doing low level dungeons on alts the chats have mostly stopped again, people just want to get it done for that character and move on. I joined a guild which was quite social but just didn't have the energy to try get into the vocal inner circle that dominates chat....I have plenty of social outlets already.
So what have other people's experiences been like? And also, any ideas on how mmo's can better keep random social interactions alive going forward? I feel like repetition of content is one of the enemies of staying socially engaged but then repetition is generally woven into the very fabric of mmo's. I haven't thought that hard about it, just looking to start a discussion.
Firstly my position is that mmo's have always been and continue to be as social as a person wants to make them. I've been involved in busy guilds in games people generally point the finger at as being on-rails themepark games responsible for dumbing down the genre and I spent a lot of my time while in game chatting on Skype or Discord. I've played sandbox games where people claim you can't accomplish anything on your own as a lone wolf because I was more focused on enjoying the world or game mechanics than making friends. I've also shifted between all kinds of different social phases between those poles through different kinds of games.
After playing Classic something I noticed was that initially there was a large surge in people being more social. People chatted in dungeons and gave advice and traded crafted goods in low level towns. It was nice, only it was a construction built of people's desire to recreate what they believed the good old days were like. That is fine though and I'd like to see more of that. Sadly as the weeks have gone by it has dwindled, on the server I was on at least. Doing low level dungeons on alts the chats have mostly stopped again, people just want to get it done for that character and move on. I joined a guild which was quite social but just didn't have the energy to try get into the vocal inner circle that dominates chat....I have plenty of social outlets already.
So what have other people's experiences been like? And also, any ideas on how mmo's can better keep random social interactions alive going forward? I feel like repetition of content is one of the enemies of staying socially engaged but then repetition is generally woven into the very fabric of mmo's. I haven't thought that hard about it, just looking to start a discussion.
Comments
Their was never a demand for easy solo games, their just easier to make. Make them easy and they don't have to balance anything. Marketing departments started a propaganda to make everyone think people asked for easy.
I'm inclined to agree. Players often organically become social given the right circumstances. While I said the initial socialising in Classic was probably a construct of players acting out their desire to be more social, if they were split up into personal instances often etc they couldn't have socialised even if they wanted to.
Maybe one method of the more reliable methods of getting people to talk and co-operate in games is to have them be concentrated in an area and have them working towards similar goals. Seems both might be necessary because being in Orgrimmar or Stormwind in Classic doesn't lead to interactions that often whereas I noticed if people were gathered in a quest hub it did. In FFXIV, the introduction of Eureka during Stormblood had people interacting in a similar positive way.
I'd rather see Bulletin Boards, mail systems, and contracts through mail. And I'd rather see player organized trade events and city open markets where players can interact.
Once upon a time....
City leaders (players) could run events to go after newly discovered "mass" Artifacts. Events that require not only PvE to get to it (and maybe in some cases PvP), but also specific Skills in (de-)construction and portage (Caravan owners).
In other words, large group efforts.
Once upon a time....
At least UO had a lot of this going on.
But that interaction in-game gets lost once players have figured everything out in an unchanging world.
I think a world that changes can revive this. Wandering MOB forts, Dungeon MOB rollover, new stuff, discoveries, etc., these things can stir up player talk in-game on a continual basis.
Especially in a world with truly large forests, deserts, mountain ranges, etc.
I think it would be cool if guilds could specialize in knowing the what's and where's in particular locations. Rangers, so to speak.
Once upon a time....
OS mmorpgs focused on socially dependent systems. Interdependency was part of the DNA. They were socially-focused by design.
But, yes, you could play solo if you wanted to.
The focus on system design was social though and community was formed on the basis of that. At the start, at least.
The problems began once players got to a certain level then it became a part of all bickering in chat with a "i know more than you because i am level 50 and you are a level 10 noob".I still see that very immature bickering inside of chat to this day and a LOT of it.
So my assumption is that how this "racing"idea came about,people were afraid to be called noobs so they made sure to race to end game levels as fast as possible.I find it sad when players who knew nothing about rpg gaming get through some boss fight and all of a sudden consider themselves as gods and warrant insulting everyone else.
Really what it comes down to is a lot of very immature people,i guess this is gaming so it attracts those type of people.The majority of players cannot even relax,everything is a race to them,there is no such thing as enjoyment or fun so i call bullshit when people use those terms because all i see are people racing to end levels and trying to be l33t.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Instead too many of these games look like computer code instead of a virtual world,you just do not get the feeling you are walking around a realistic world,especially when i see markers over npc heads and/or distance markers on the screen...destination 500 yds,everything just looks like code.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I do however absolutely enjoy meeting people out in the world and talking to them and randomly inviting them and doing a couple of quests and moving on. I also talk to them and we learn about each other and our real lives. We used to do this in Everquest too where people would talk about their real lives and everything. I know people don't like this because it interferes with roleplaying but getting to know another player even if they fabricate their real life is part of placing another person above just a pixel or not a real person behind a keyboard. It is important when playing to treat people as people not just a character in a game. This is what is missing in my opinion.
I make friends with the person behind the keyboard and then the game begins to be more meaningful when you play with people. Whether you solo nowadays or not and mind you you could solo in Everquest too as a bad quadkiting wizard myself can attest we soloed there too and that was a brutal game as far as dying and losing experience was concerned and yet people soloed in it. Soloing can be an issue but the real problem in my view is that people don't take the time to get to know the person behind the keyboard.
When you talked about people just trying to finish dungeons to get that character through the dungeon and quests, this was also the case in Everquest with far more soul crunching time requirements where people would sit in one spot for days literally for one drop. Are you telling me this was better?
You can look at soloing as being the terrible ill that has ruined interaction and made it harder for people to enjoy a game but the Everquest option was only marginally better. I doubt very much you can make a game nowadays and then make sure your game was so punishing in time requirements and penalties for failing to actually attract a population that can sustain the game.
Things have changed people have already experienced other games and even those who try to play Everquest for the first time cannot really experience what the atmosphere was like in 1999. There is no way to recreate that experience and players are far too savvy for developers to fashion a world that will satisfy them and enable that type of interaction to occur. We have grown past it and our demands have currency because there are other games we can play. When Everquest, Ultima Online and AC were the only games in town you could get away with more draconian systems. Try it now and see how fast your game goes belly up.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I don’t think making games more difficult or more downtime or more reliance on others will promote more social gamers, it will produce more dead games. I feel that many players do not want to rely on others, at least not in the traditional sense of building a friendship or reputation. To me it seems like mostly players just use each other to get loot these days and thats it. Why?
Players have less in common these days. Players age range is much wider. Social anxiety seems higher than ever and tolerance at an all time low. Its a sign of the times really, imo. Tbh, this site is the main form of game socializing I do now and I feel like I’m talking to myself a lot of the time, so maybe it’s just me who has changed, lol.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
People who make an effort to be more social in MMOs have a more social experience in MMOs! Wait, I'm getting an update from the field... yes, yes it seems now that we are confirming that so-called "old-school" MMOs that forced grouping forced players to be more social! I can't believe it either Sally...
All kidding aside... is anyone surprised?
The population of MMOs was also in the low millions total across all games, MMOs were very much a niche because a lot of gamers didn't want or like the social aspect and enjoyed singleplayer games or competitive multiplayer ala FPS.
Hell, 20 years ago in UO I'd play solo all the time, or with the 3-5 friends who were online at the time. There was no forced grouping, there were no forced group roles, no forced group sizes... we played together because we were friends and it was fun.
Forced socialization is a swear-word for many introverts, sure a lot of us break out of our shell when behind the anonymity of the digital world, but I still to this day 20 years later get a bit of social anxiety when tanking a pug in WoW or trying to complete a Nightfall in Destiny 2 with randoms.
All that said, some of the best times I ever had gaming in MMOs were because of guilds and the friends made there. Raiding in WoW, RP in UO, raiding in Destiny...
I'm just saying grouping and socialization is alive and well in any MMO game, because now literally the only difference is that before it was 100% required for many/most activities, where as now... it's still 100% required for some activities, but there are also plenty of options for solo players.
So you want to be social? Be social! No one is stopping you.
Game design certainly helps direct players towards certain behaviors, for sure, but how and when we interact with certain elements is entirely up to us.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
I agree, but its a different kind of social. More of a “can anyone help me with a quest” rather than “where my stoner metal fans at?” Playing games with friends is easier than ever. Making friends though? If people are nice to me in a video game these days I’m immediately suspicious. It wasn't always like that. Is it just me? I almost feel like a desperate creeper, being genuinely friendly online.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
I didn't play EQ, but the same sort of thing happened in UO. MOBs would loot your corpse, making a more instantaneous help a thing. And I met a lot of good peeps in dungeons and around the game world, whether it was me helping them or them helping me.
Usually that was a one time meeting with another player, but sometimes I got to know other characters and build a little trust with them because of repeated instances, often with a third party needing the help.
That's a good way to find a good guild, too.
Once upon a time....
Maybe I'm just a curmudgeon, but I rarely "worked" at being social when I started playing MMORPGs (`2001). Now, it is either my cynical attitude or just not as much in common with most players I come into contact with.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR