How do people "forget" to cancel an MMORPG subscription? Do you quit a game and not realize that you've quit it? How does that happen? Do you forget that it was a subscription game and think it had been free to play all along? Or do you just find it too much of a bother to go cancel the subscription, even though you're aware that you need to?
So you're saying that people don't forget and the only reason subs have been historically auto-recurring is because they provide a better service for people that would otherwise be bothered by the inconvenience of having to manually renew - people who perhaps would otherwise forget to manually renew although apparently, no one ever forgets to cancel lol.
The shit you guys come up with to defend dodgy business practices is amazing.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
So you're saying that people don't forget and the only reason subs have been historically auto-recurring is because they provide a better service for people that would otherwise be bothered by the inconvenience of having to manually renew - people who perhaps would otherwise forget to manually renew although apparently, no one ever forgets to cancel lol.
The shit you guys come up with to defend dodgy business practices is amazing.
As an adult, I don't have any of my auto-renewals and auto payments go unchecked. I also don't want to have to log in every month and resub just because some idiot might forget to cancel his sub when he stops playing the game.
[edit] And I have seen a "reoccurring monthly" option before. Yes, all games should have that option. No, I will not blame the companies for you forgetting to cancel. There are too many ways to get around not having the single month check box option.
How do people "forget" to cancel an MMORPG subscription? Do you quit a game and not realize that you've quit it? How does that happen? Do you forget that it was a subscription game and think it had been free to play all along? Or do you just find it too much of a bother to go cancel the subscription, even though you're aware that you need to?
So you're saying that people don't forget and the only reason subs have been historically auto-recurring is because they provide a better service for people that would otherwise be bothered by the inconvenience of having to manually renew - people who perhaps would otherwise forget to manually renew although apparently, no one ever forgets to cancel lol.
The shit you guys come up with to defend dodgy business practices is amazing.
I'm not saying that it doesn't happen. I'm saying that I don't see how it happens. In my own life, the worst I've ever seen is that I decided I was quitting a game a few days after last playing it, and the next month got charged in that time.
Going to give 1 point to team Greed, and zero points to OP on this one.
Unless they do like Gold's Gym and you can't cancel until the 31st of the month (oops, this month has only 30 days you can't cancel), then you are being unreasonable.
The key word is "you" forgot to cancel. It is 90% in your court. On the business side of it, if it was the other way around, where people forgot to set auto-renew and their sub got canceled, there would get WAY more complaints.
Down with subscriptions! In with the pay to win item malls!
Wait, is that really what you want?
No, I want "inconvenient" subs that don't auto-renew or at the very least, a tick box for choosing auto-renew or not.
Even games like WOW where you can choose to play with game time cards for a fixed period of time, don't give you a tick box like that when you use a credit card instead.
Canceling immediately after subbing is the way we get around their auto-renew horseshit but they could make it much simpler... if they weren't counting on the income from people that don't play and just forget to cancel.
Most MMO's let you sub for One month 3 months 6 months 1 year or just auto-renew not sure what your referring too, something outside of gaming?
Down with subscriptions! In with the pay to win item malls!
Wait, is that really what you want?
No, I want "inconvenient" subs that don't auto-renew or at the very least, a tick box for choosing auto-renew or not.
Even games like WOW where you can choose to play with game time cards for a fixed period of time, don't give you a tick box like that when you use a credit card instead.
Canceling immediately after subbing is the way we get around their auto-renew horseshit but they could make it much simpler... if they weren't counting on the income from people that don't play and just forget to cancel.
Most MMO's let you sub for One month 3 months 6 months 1 year or just auto-renew not sure what your referring too, something outside of gaming?
Auto renew is not a separate thing in most game's account page. The one, 3, 6 month and 1 year subs are all set to auto-renew automatically by default. You need to cancel the sub to turn it off.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
It's just the way the credit card processors have worked up to now. The recurring monthly payments are often just as invisible to the people getting paid.
There's 2 new ways of doing it now, that are less invisible: i.e. charging "invoices" and charging a "saved card", that give the merchant more control than auto-renew does, although if you're worried about abuse the old way is safer.
i recently re-subbed to swtor to see the new content, and was pleased to see they have a non-recurring 60 day option.
Well that's new since the last time I played SWTOR. It's the way they all should be.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Well, that didn't go well. Valiant effort, Iselin. I get what you're saying and agree. Too bad so many responses can not read a simple thread title.
Rant on!
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
It's just the way the credit card processors have worked up to now. The recurring monthly payments are often just as invisible to the people getting paid.
You don't look over the list of charges every month before paying your credit card bill? I sure do.
Yes there should be but that box is extremely rare in MMOs. WOW doesn't have it, ESO doesn't have it, EA Origin doesn't have it... I thought it was pretty obvious why they leave that tick box out but apparently not
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Auto renew should be an option you can check and it should be unchecked by default. You should have to go in and turn this on if it's something you want and not the other way around.
If there's no option to turn if off then yes it's rather scummy I would say.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
This same shit happened to me with Uplay+. They announced they were giving away a 30 day trial, turns out it was for the month of announced, not when you actually started the sub.
Long story short because it was not specified very clearly in their fine print, it auto renewed on the first of the month, 19 days after I started it. They were unwilling to budge on the charge so I got the money back through my card company.
How do people "forget" to cancel an MMORPG subscription? Do you quit a game and not realize that you've quit it? How does that happen? Do you forget that it was a subscription game and think it had been free to play all along? Or do you just find it too much of a bother to go cancel the subscription, even though you're aware that you need to?
So you're saying that people don't forget and the only reason subs have been historically auto-recurring is because they provide a better service for people that would otherwise be bothered by the inconvenience of having to manually renew - people who perhaps would otherwise forget to manually renew although apparently, no one ever forgets to cancel lol.
The shit you guys come up with to defend dodgy business practices is amazing.
Yeah but as Ultimate Duck says, "as an adult" one should check their expenses. It's just part of life.
You're correct, there should be a tick box that chooses auto renew or not. But thinking about it now, I actually never auto renew. I can't on Steam unless I prepay my steam wallet and "screw that" and I normally cancel every time I sub for something.
I'm not saying your not an adult but it can be pretty much bypassed with minimal inconvenience. I do think it would be better customer service to have that but it is in our control.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
How do people "forget" to cancel an MMORPG subscription? Do you quit a game and not realize that you've quit it? How does that happen? Do you forget that it was a subscription game and think it had been free to play all along? Or do you just find it too much of a bother to go cancel the subscription, even though you're aware that you need to?
So you're saying that people don't forget and the only reason subs have been historically auto-recurring is because they provide a better service for people that would otherwise be bothered by the inconvenience of having to manually renew - people who perhaps would otherwise forget to manually renew although apparently, no one ever forgets to cancel lol.
The shit you guys come up with to defend dodgy business practices is amazing.
Yeah but as Ultimate Duck says, "as an adult" one should check their expenses. It's just part of life.
You're correct, there should be a tick box that chooses auto renew or not. But thinking about it now, I actually never auto renew. I can't on Steam unless I prepay my steam wallet and "screw that" and I normally cancel every time I sub for something.
I'm not saying your not an adult but it can be pretty much bypassed with minimal inconvenience. I do think it would be better customer service to have that but it is in our control.
I know it can be bypassed by cancelling after subbing and I do just that 99% of the time, But the whole point of this thread is that they make it deliberately cumbersome to do that and I'm willing to bet they get a lot of people to pay for one more billing cycle (1 month, 3 months, whatever) just because some will forget or won't bother with cancelling on the same day they sub.
Even if it's only 10% of the players that forget to cancel ahead of time that adds up to some serious cash for them... and that's why they don't give you that very easy auto-renew checkbox.
As to adult... trolls can kiss my ass.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
If you want consumer friendly laws then you need to support consumer friendly lawmakers.
And then hope they don't get turned to the dark side by the lobbyists
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
One of my friends had an auto renew and didn't realize it. When his monthly expired he just assumed that it was over. A few months later he realized he was still being charged though he hadn't played.
Please explain why the responsibility should be put on the consumer to prevent a vendor from incurring recurring charges to a bank account? Really all Iselin is asking for is 1) opt-in to recurring fees; 2) easy opt-out/cancellation of subscriptions.
Recurring fees, from any vendor, should always be explicitly opt-in. Cancelling a recurring sub shouldn't be a hard-mode puzzle for the consumer to try and figure out. The tech industry, as a whole, is begging loudly for intrusive regulation. This is the kind of shenanigans other industries giggled and got away with a century ago. Opt-in doesn't punish capitalism, it rewards ethical businesses by leveling the playing field with unscrupulous actors.
Not saying it should be. But it is what it is. Change it if you don't like it. You can't? then find a way to deal with it.
This is something I noted the very first time I put my credit card into a game site. I don't disagree but I'm not one to stew in my own juices because I don't like something. I either don't patronize the site, take action and just cancel it immediately or be mindful of each month and then cancel when I no longer want to subscribe.
But really, you don't like it? Do something. Or are people waiting for others to do something?
Form a petition, get players to not subscribe, write your congressman "whatever."
Sorry I just don't sit around being pissy about shit. For me that's no way to live. If don't like something or a practice, I don't patronize it. But if a company says "this is what we have/this is what we offer" you have the choice to do it or not.
It's not like this is only a problem with video games. It's a larger problem in other industries as well. Doing a quick search it seems that the ftc has made some strides in that a company can't autorenew unless they fully disclose what the consumer is signing up for. And that's the thing, it's not great customer service if they don't offer options, but you as the consumer have the choice, at least with video games, to sign up or not.
Maybe this is not a popular way to be but it's my opinion. If I felt more strongly about it I would do something about it. I use my bandwidth for other things.
Here, go nuts. I've also submitted a complaint. Not really optimistic about a change but who knows.
Yeah but as Ultimate Duck says, "as an adult" one should check their expenses. It's just part of life.
You're correct, there should be a tick box that chooses auto renew or not. But thinking about it now, I actually never auto renew. I can't on Steam unless I prepay my steam wallet and "screw that" and I normally cancel every time I sub for something.
I'm not saying your not an adult but it can be pretty much bypassed with minimal inconvenience. I do think it would be better customer service to have that but it is in our control.
Please explain why the responsibility should be put on the consumer to prevent a vendor from incurring recurring charges to a bank account? Really all Iselin is asking for is 1) opt-in to recurring fees; 2) easy opt-out/cancellation of subscriptions.
Recurring fees, from any vendor, should always be explicitly opt-in. Cancelling a recurring sub shouldn't be a hard-mode puzzle for the consumer to try and figure out. The tech industry, as a whole, is begging loudly for intrusive regulation. This is the kind of shenanigans other industries giggled and got away with a century ago. Opt-in doesn't punish capitalism, it rewards ethical businesses by leveling the playing field with unscrupulous actors.
If you are smart enough to set up an account for a video game, you should be smart enough to cancel it. If you are smart enough to "subscribe", you are smart enough to unsubscribe. If you are smart enough to enter your credit card info, you are smart enough to remove it. You can add apps and music to your smart phone but you can't set up a reminder in your calendar to cancel your game sub?
Not to mention, with all of the payment methods available, this is a non-factor. Put the account sub on PayPal, a Visa gift card or a prepaid ATM card if you can't be bothered to log in and cancel. This is above and beyond the fact that almost every game company will refund the money if you tell them you forgot to cancel and haven't logged in to play the game in that billing cycle.
When we get a "free week/month" of HBO, CBS, Disney+, etc. and they require a credit card, we immediately cancel or set up a reminder to cancel... because we are grown-ups.
In other words, grow the "f" up when it comes to your finances.
So if I put a bear trap (note I said bear) in my front yard and you step in it, I get to say:
Didn't you look where you were walking? Didn't you see the metal sticking up through the grass? Didn't you see the stake? What were you doing on my lawn anyway? Aren't you smart enough to know that high grass can conceal hidden dangers? Don't you know there is a sidewalk for a reason? Why did you not call me before coming over and ask about any hidden traps?
And so on. So now it's the poor guy with no leg who is to blame, not the douchebag who set a trap.
I don't buy that. Simple consumer transactions should not be attempts to cheat the unvigilant.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Apparently some "adults" don't have a clue about things like negative option billing which other adults have made illegal in certain jurisdictions.
In the province of Quebec for example, neither Prime nor Netflix nor anyone else can give you a free month trial with an auto-subscribe at the end of the trial - It's illegal just like all this scummy horseshit should be.
Bad corporate citizens those Quebecois.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Apparently some "adults" don't have a clue about things like negative option billing which other adults have made illegal in certain jurisdictions.
In the province of Quebec for example, neither Prime nor Netflix nor anyone else can give you a free month trial with an auto-subscribe at the end of the trial - It's illegal just like all this scummy horseshit should be.
Bad corporate citizens those Quebecois.
Nope, I completely agree. it should be an option, even it it's just a minor pain in the ass to bypass, it's still annoying. So, I've submitted the FTC complaint, I've chatted with an agent to make sure I put it in the correct place. Now your turn. Maybe if enough people complaint something will happen.
Or if not maybe there are other options we can follow. I'm all "ears" (virtually)
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
So if I put a bear trap (note I said bear) in my front yard and you step in it, I get to say:
Didn't you look where you were walking? Didn't you see the metal sticking up through the grass? Didn't you see the stake? What were you doing on my lawn anyway? Aren't you smart enough to know that high grass can conceal hidden dangers? Don't you know there is a sidewalk for a reason? Why did you not call me before coming over and ask about any hidden traps?
And so on. So now it's the poor guy with no leg who is to blame, not the douchebag who set a trap.
I don't buy that. Simple consumer transactions should not be attempts to cheat the unvigilant.
Are you setting up account for other people who are forgetting to cancel them?
I think a more appropriate example would be if you set up a bear trap then stepped in it. You have no one to blame but you.
Apparently some "adults" don't have a clue about things like negative option billing which other adults have made illegal in certain jurisdictions.
In the province of Quebec for example, neither Prime nor Netflix nor anyone else can give you a free month trial with an auto-subscribe at the end of the trial - It's illegal just like all this scummy horseshit should be.
Bad corporate citizens those Quebecois.
Sounds like the beginning of a nanny state trying to save you from yourself because you can't handle your own responsibilities.
Comments
The shit you guys come up with to defend dodgy business practices is amazing.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
There's 2 new ways of doing it now, that are less invisible: i.e. charging "invoices" and charging a "saved card", that give the merchant more control than auto-renew does, although if you're worried about abuse the old way is safer.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Rant on!
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
You're correct, there should be a tick box that chooses auto renew or not. But thinking about it now, I actually never auto renew. I can't on Steam unless I prepay my steam wallet and "screw that" and I normally cancel every time I sub for something.
I'm not saying your not an adult but it can be pretty much bypassed with minimal inconvenience. I do think it would be better customer service to have that but it is in our control.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Even if it's only 10% of the players that forget to cancel ahead of time that adds up to some serious cash for them... and that's why they don't give you that very easy auto-renew checkbox.
As to adult... trolls can kiss my ass.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
This is something I noted the very first time I put my credit card into a game site. I don't disagree but I'm not one to stew in my own juices because I don't like something. I either don't patronize the site, take action and just cancel it immediately or be mindful of each month and then cancel when I no longer want to subscribe.
But really, you don't like it? Do something. Or are people waiting for others to do something?
Form a petition, get players to not subscribe, write your congressman "whatever."
Sorry I just don't sit around being pissy about shit. For me that's no way to live. If don't like something or a practice, I don't patronize it. But if a company says "this is what we have/this is what we offer" you have the choice to do it or not.
It's not like this is only a problem with video games. It's a larger problem in other industries as well. Doing a quick search it seems that the ftc has made some strides in that a company can't autorenew unless they fully disclose what the consumer is signing up for. And that's the thing, it's not great customer service if they don't offer options, but you as the consumer have the choice, at least with video games, to sign up or not.
Maybe this is not a popular way to be but it's my opinion. If I felt more strongly about it I would do something about it. I use my bandwidth for other things.
Here, go nuts. I've also submitted a complaint. Not really optimistic about a change but who knows.
https://www.ftc.gov/faq/consumer-protection/submit-consumer-complaint-ftc
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Didn't you look where you were walking?
Didn't you see the metal sticking up through the grass?
Didn't you see the stake?
What were you doing on my lawn anyway?
Aren't you smart enough to know that high grass can conceal hidden dangers?
Don't you know there is a sidewalk for a reason?
Why did you not call me before coming over and ask about any hidden traps?
And so on. So now it's the poor guy with no leg who is to blame, not the douchebag who set a trap.
I don't buy that. Simple consumer transactions should not be attempts to cheat the unvigilant.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
In the province of Quebec for example, neither Prime nor Netflix nor anyone else can give you a free month trial with an auto-subscribe at the end of the trial - It's illegal just like all this scummy horseshit should be.
Bad corporate citizens those Quebecois.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Or if not maybe there are other options we can follow. I'm all "ears" (virtually)
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo