Do powergamers ruin MMOs?

ultimateduck · November 2019

Over the course of the many years I've played MMO(RPGs) I've noticed a trend. There is a growing group of people that get into a game and rush to the end, skipping any and all content in between.

You may ask "why is this a problem, they can play how they want". Well, I think it's because of the way a MMO(RPG) is designed. It is meant to be played at a different pace than how powergamers play it. While half the population is taking in the content, even if it's just a little, the other half is racing to the end, then complaining that there is no endgame.

Sometimes this is a flaw of the game because there simply is no endgame. Perhaps the developers thought they would have a few weeks after release to implement at least some of the endgame content. But other times it's because the endgame requires a larger population that isn't there yet because they are actually enjoying the game. Of course, sometimes it's a combination of the two.

This becomes an issue when the impatient powergamers go on an anti-[insert game here] rant campaign and quit, leaving the game with a substantially lower population which in turn has an effect on every other part of the game. Then, when other people listen to their nonstop ranting about how the game is incomplete, they will be swayed into not trying out what could be a great game because they are listening to people who really didn't play the game as it was meant to be played.

This is not to say that some games deserve bad press and reviews. A crap game is a crap game. Some do not ,but they get bad reviews regardless because people skip what makes them a good game.

Albatroes · November 2019

"Growing group" as in since the start of mmorpgs? I'll agree that the "group" is getting larger, but not because its a new thing. There's more player traffic than there was 10+ years ago. Couple this with a lot more influencing and free advertisement causing a product to be falsely advertised without liability. So if you want to 'blame' a certain group of people ruining MMOs, start by blaming content creators followed by eastern 'competition' (aka idea stealers).

anemo · November 2019

People power leveling then leaving, and ranting about poor grindy gameplay is a problem. Though one that’s normally pretty transparent to people who have seen the problem before.

the larger problem IMO is when power gaming strategies infect lower level play. Especially in cases where it forces the community into an optimal that is less fun. Or even an optimal that doesn’t work for the player’s skill level, watching people try the hard rotation and ending up doing worse than the simple one is always sad to watch (especially when in their mind they’re doing tons of high APM work compared to everyone else, and the rants they have on wipes/loses).

Cleffy · November 2019

Yes.
They not only affect how the game is played, but how the game is designed. Developers build the game around power gamers and adjust design philosophy for power gamers. This is why when WoW was released making a storied journey from 1~55, it was wildly popular. It wasn't a power gamer game. Most popular MMORPGs don't target power gamers. Copy cats tend to iterate off a popular mmo and adjust for power gamers.
The problem right now in MMOs is that it's all about the end-game and not about the journey. The first third of the level progression doesn't really exist for any meaningful amount of time.

Amathe · November 2019

Generally speaking, games are now much easier. This results in more people reaching max level faster.

ultimateduck · November 2019

Amathe said:

Generally speaking, games are now much easier. This results in more people reaching max level faster.

Easier, yes. Faster is relative, of course. DAoC on release took months to reach 50, now it can be done in a day if you have a power leveler, a few weeks without a power leveler.

But how fast was there a capped level in AAU or WoW classic after release? Where is the rest of the population when the powergamers hit those levels? While it probably didn't effect WoW classic players much (I didn't play vanilla WoW), AAU is more dependent on a population for the endgame.

Amathe · November 2019

Using myself as an example, I played original EQ for 1.75 years and never reached max (60 at the time). Just 57.

I played WoW at release and hit max after about 3 months (maybe less). It was so much easier.

Albatroes · November 2019

Amathe said:

Using myself as an example, I played original EQ for 1.75 years and never reached max (60 at the time). Just 57.

I played WoW at release and hit max after about 3 months (maybe less). It was so much easier.

I think a core thing people are missing about leveling times is the amount of information (in wow's case, the level of addons) we have now compared to all those years ago.

I know back in the FFXI days, it could take a while simply because the "known" areas level in were always populated with a limited amount of mobs coupled with needing a group to level with if you wanted to do it efficiently.

This is also why raid fights have been cleared faster compared to back then. If anyone at the higher end of these games remembered how valuable information back then was, a lot boss strats weren't shared voluntarily and would only really be known about if someone was just raging on their guild or just got bored and decided to post it on an open forum. You didn't have all this streaming etc back then so there were more people trying to find strats for themselves vs going to wowhead/youtube/download an addon like they can now.

Keep in mind that wow classic leveling addons were being worked on since the beta.

Amathe · November 2019

* In the interests of complete honesty, EQ was my first mmorpg, and most of the time I didn't know what the hell I was doing. This tended to arrest the speed of my level advancement.

cameltosis · November 2019

ultimateduck said:

Over the course of the many years I've played MMO(RPGs) I've noticed a trend. There is a growing group of people that get into a game and rush to the end, skipping any and all content in between.

You may ask "why is this a problem, they can play how they want". Well, I think it's because of the way a MMO(RPG) is designed. It is meant to be played at a different pace than how powergamers play it. While half the population is taking in the content, even if it's just a little, the other half is racing to the end, then complaining that there is no endgame.

Sometimes this is a flaw of the game because there simply is no endgame. Perhaps the developers thought they would have a few weeks after release to implement at least some of the endgame content. But other times it's because the endgame requires a larger population that isn't there yet because they are actually enjoying the game. Of course, sometimes it's a combination of the two.

This becomes an issue when the impatient powergamers go on an anti-[insert game here] rant campaign and quit, leaving the game with a substantially lower population which in turn has an effect on every other part of the game. Then, when other people listen to their nonstop ranting about how the game is incomplete, they will be swayed into not trying out what could be a great game because they are listening to people who really didn't play the game as it was meant to be played.

This is not to say that some games deserve bad press and reviews. A crap game is a crap game. Some do not ,but they get bad reviews regardless because people skip what makes them a good game.

I am of the opinion that the whole "powergamer" issue (as in, powergamers are ruining mmos) is non-existent and is entirely a result of individual casual gamers having bad encounters and projecting their bias onto the rest of the population.

First, most MMO dev studios that release numbers have told us directly that only a small percentage of the population ever takes part in endgame activities (usually 5% - 15% of the total population). Power gamers, which are a sub-set of endgame players, simply do not account for a significant proportion of the population. So, your assertions of half the population quitting because they're powergamers is just false.

Second, the last 10 years of MMORPG development has been towards reducing the amount of endgame activities and lowering the difficulty of the games - the opposite of what power gamers want. This is because CASUALS RULE THE GENRE! Casual gamers make up the vast majority of the MMO community and account for nearly all the money made. This is why development has been geared towards casuals....because they are the actual players and it makes total business sense.

Third, there is nothing wrong with people who have played through the game expressing their opinion. Given the stagnation of the MMORPG genre, it is not surprising that many people have complaints. I suspect that many of the people you refer to as powergamers actually aren't, they are simply gamers who've been in the genre a while and are fed up with seeing the same mistakes repeated over and over. If sales of a game are genuinely affected by complaining powergamers (I refute this, but I'll be happy to change my mind if you can provide evidence) then there is a good chance the game isnt good.

Fourth, there is nothing wrong with "rushing to endgame". That's what I do, but I'm not a powergamer. The reason? I hate leveling up. With a passion. So, I try to get past the bad part of the game in order to reach the good point: the endgame. Endgame is where I can finally play some challenging content. Endgame is where there is a lot of group content. Endgame is where PvP gets closest to being balanced. Endgame is where the community really comes into it's own. If the devs have promised me a good endgame (which they always do) and then they don't deliver, it seems right that I complain, because I've been lied to.

The only point I will concede is the indirect effect on the community. Powergamers, in my experience, are often community leaders as well, being very important for organising guilds, raids and pvp. If a powergamer is also a community leader, then their leaving the game will have a negative effect on that community. For example, I ran a guild in WAR and LotRO and you'd probably call me a powergamer - I was focused on endgame activities and being the best player I could be. When I quit both WAR and LotRO, I didn't have a strong leader to take over from me. As a result, my guild fell apart within 1 month of me leaving with half my guild members also quitting the game. I've also observed this happening in numerous other guilds in all MMOs (though, when it happens to another a guild, it often meant a good time to recruit some new members!).

It is for this very reason that I actually think devs should focus more content on players like me, or more traditional powergamers. If you can keep us happy, we'll be the ones organising community events, running fan websites, training new players, forming PUGs etc, basically, we're the ones keeping the community running and turning the game into a home. This in turn makes the game better for casual players.

ultimateduck · November 2019

cameltosis said:

I am of the opinion that the whole "powergamer" issue (as in, powergamers are ruining mmos) is non-existent and is entirely a result of individual casual gamers having bad encounters and projecting their bias onto the rest of the population.

First, most MMO dev studios that release numbers have told us directly that only a small percentage of the population ever takes part in endgame activities (usually 5% - 15% of the total population). Power gamers, which are a sub-set of endgame players, simply do not account for a significant proportion of the population. So, your assertions of half the population quitting because they're powergamers is just false.

Second, the last 10 years of MMORPG development has been towards reducing the amount of endgame activities and lowering the difficulty of the games - the opposite of what power gamers want. This is because CASUALS RULE THE GENRE! Casual gamers make up the vast majority of the MMO community and account for nearly all the money made. This is why development has been geared towards casuals....because they are the actual players and it makes total business sense.

Third, there is nothing wrong with people who have played through the game expressing their opinion. Given the stagnation of the MMORPG genre, it is not surprising that many people have complaints. I suspect that many of the people you refer to as powergamers actually aren't, they are simply gamers who've been in the genre a while and are fed up with seeing the same mistakes repeated over and over. If sales of a game are genuinely affected by complaining powergamers (I refute this, but I'll be happy to change my mind if you can provide evidence) then there is a good chance the game isnt good.

Fourth, there is nothing wrong with "rushing to endgame". That's what I do, but I'm not a powergamer. The reason? I hate leveling up. With a passion. So, I try to get past the bad part of the game in order to reach the good point: the endgame. Endgame is where I can finally play some challenging content. Endgame is where there is a lot of group content. Endgame is where PvP gets closest to being balanced. Endgame is where the community really comes into it's own. If the devs have promised me a good endgame (which they always do) and then they don't deliver, it seems right that I complain, because I've been lied to.

The only point I will concede is the indirect effect on the community. Powergamers, in my experience, are often community leaders as well, being very important for organising guilds, raids and pvp. If a powergamer is also a community leader, then their leaving the game will have a negative effect on that community. For example, I ran a guild in WAR and LotRO and you'd probably call me a powergamer - I was focused on endgame activities and being the best player I could be. When I quit both WAR and LotRO, I didn't have a strong leader to take over from me. As a result, my guild fell apart within 1 month of me leaving with half my guild members also quitting the game. I've also observed this happening in numerous other guilds in all MMOs (though, when it happens to another a guild, it often meant a good time to recruit some new members!).

It is for this very reason that I actually think devs should focus more content on players like me, or more traditional powergamers. If you can keep us happy, we'll be the ones organising community events, running fan websites, training new players, forming PUGs etc, basically, we're the ones keeping the community running and turning the game into a home. This in turn makes the game better for casual players.

First point: A small percentage of people can do a lot of damage to a game. For example, it only takes a few exploiters to ruin a games economy.

Second point: Have power gamers pushed developers to make the game easier for everyone? If powergamers are a small percentage of gamers, would it be a stretch for developers to make it so the average gamer wasn't left in the dust compared to the small percent of powergamers? If 10% of the population hit the endgame in a week, you don't think it pushes the remaining 90% to level faster?

Third point: If they played the game in a manner in which it wasn't intended, foregoing all of the games lore and content, how valid is their opinion? You don't see how damaging that opinion can be, especially considering powergamers are, in your opinion, "community leaders"?

You want devs to "focus more content on players like you, or more traditional powergamers" but if you look at the MMO(RPG) genre, has it benefited from the increased powergamer mindset? I think not.

AlBQuirky · November 2019

ultimateduck said:

cameltosis said:

I am of the opinion that the whole "powergamer" issue (as in, powergamers are ruining mmos) is non-existent and is entirely a result of individual casual gamers having bad encounters and projecting their bias onto the rest of the population.

First, most MMO dev studios that release numbers have told us directly that only a small percentage of the population ever takes part in endgame activities (usually 5% - 15% of the total population). Power gamers, which are a sub-set of endgame players, simply do not account for a significant proportion of the population. So, your assertions of half the population quitting because they're powergamers is just false.

Second, the last 10 years of MMORPG development has been towards reducing the amount of endgame activities and lowering the difficulty of the games - the opposite of what power gamers want. This is because CASUALS RULE THE GENRE! Casual gamers make up the vast majority of the MMO community and account for nearly all the money made. This is why development has been geared towards casuals....because they are the actual players and it makes total business sense.

Third, there is nothing wrong with people who have played through the game expressing their opinion. Given the stagnation of the MMORPG genre, it is not surprising that many people have complaints. I suspect that many of the people you refer to as powergamers actually aren't, they are simply gamers who've been in the genre a while and are fed up with seeing the same mistakes repeated over and over. If sales of a game are genuinely affected by complaining powergamers (I refute this, but I'll be happy to change my mind if you can provide evidence) then there is a good chance the game isnt good.

Fourth, there is nothing wrong with "rushing to endgame". That's what I do, but I'm not a powergamer. The reason? I hate leveling up. With a passion. So, I try to get past the bad part of the game in order to reach the good point: the endgame. Endgame is where I can finally play some challenging content. Endgame is where there is a lot of group content. Endgame is where PvP gets closest to being balanced. Endgame is where the community really comes into it's own. If the devs have promised me a good endgame (which they always do) and then they don't deliver, it seems right that I complain, because I've been lied to.

The only point I will concede is the indirect effect on the community. Powergamers, in my experience, are often community leaders as well, being very important for organising guilds, raids and pvp. If a powergamer is also a community leader, then their leaving the game will have a negative effect on that community. For example, I ran a guild in WAR and LotRO and you'd probably call me a powergamer - I was focused on endgame activities and being the best player I could be. When I quit both WAR and LotRO, I didn't have a strong leader to take over from me. As a result, my guild fell apart within 1 month of me leaving with half my guild members also quitting the game. I've also observed this happening in numerous other guilds in all MMOs (though, when it happens to another a guild, it often meant a good time to recruit some new members!).

It is for this very reason that I actually think devs should focus more content on players like me, or more traditional powergamers. If you can keep us happy, we'll be the ones organising community events, running fan websites, training new players, forming PUGs etc, basically, we're the ones keeping the community running and turning the game into a home. This in turn makes the game better for casual players.

First point: A small percentage of people can do a lot of damage to a game. For example, it only takes a few exploiters to ruin a games economy.

Second point: Have power gamers pushed developers to make the game easier for everyone? If powergamers are a small percentage of gamers, would it be a stretch for developers to make it so the average gamer wasn't left in the dust compared to the small percent of powergamers? If 10% of the population hit the endgame in a week, you don't think it pushes the remaining 90% to level faster?

Third point: If they played the game in a manner in which it wasn't intended, foregoing all of the games lore and content, how valid is their opinion? You don't see how damaging that opinion can be, especially considering powergamers are, in your opinion, "community leaders"?

You want devs to "focus more content on players like you, or more traditional powergamers" but if you look at the MMO(RPG) genre, has it benefited from the increased powergamer mindset? I think not.

While I agree, I think there are more "powergamers" than "roleplayers" playing video games in general and MMORPGs specifically. I say this from watching other players play RPGs. A good majority of them seek "best mechanical combinations" to beat a game.

I'd have no troubles with that if they just did that. Instead, "powergamers" become very vocal about how "easy" or "boring" games are. Of course they are! They just gamed the game and found the ultimate power to make them easier.

I'm not saying "they play RPGs wrong", but rather they play them differently

Theocritus · November 2019

Amathe said:

Using myself as an example, I played original EQ for 1.75 years and never reached max (60 at the time). Just 57.

I played WoW at release and hit max after about 3 months (maybe less). It was so much easier.

Yea it cracks me up when people say WoW was harder than EQ. They obviously never played EQ.

Amathe · November 2019

Theocritus said:

Amathe said:

Using myself as an example, I played original EQ for 1.75 years and never reached max (60 at the time). Just 57.

I played WoW at release and hit max after about 3 months (maybe less). It was so much easier.

Yea it cracks me up when people say WoW was harder than EQ. They obviously never played EQ.

I think only @delete5230 says stuff like that. I hope I'm right about that, anyway.

Amathe · November 2019

AlBQuirky said:

I think there are more "powergamers" than "roleplayers" playing video games in general and MMORPGs specifically.

I think you are right. Of course, often the RPers are squirreled away on a RP server, so if you are anywhere but the RP server you encounter fewer of them.

Riqqy82 · November 2019

the developers enable this, they make too much of their game irrelevant by making it so you can skip content, people are always going to take a shortcut if one is available, why do X if Y is better and Y only takes Z longer, X= Content, Y=reward, Z=Time

ultimateduck · November 2019

AlBQuirky said:

While I agree, I think there are more "powergamers" than "roleplayers" playing video games in general and MMORPGs specifically. I say this from watching other players play RPGs. A good majority of them seek "best mechanical combinations" to beat a game.

I'd have no troubles with that if they just did that. Instead, "powergamers" become very vocal about how "easy" or "boring" games are. Of course they are! They just gamed the game and found the ultimate power to make them easier.

I'm not saying "they play RPGs wrong", but rather they play them differently

You can enjoy the content and not "roleplay". I am a "best mechanical choice" kind of player and I rarely absorb all of the content, but I am also not a powergamer. I think I fit the description of most gamers in which I play to level and have a goal to get to the endgame, but I don't rush it.

I think "wrong" is both right and wrong. Yes, they can play how they like but they may not be playing in a manner in which the game was designed. If I jumped on Overwatch and ran around saying "hi" to everyone while they shot at me, is that me playing wrong or me playing how I like to play?

ultimateduck · November 2019

Gorwe said:

Do spikes ruin MTG?

I play MTG but have no idea what a spike is.

Gutlard · November 2019

I'm guessing Devs don't really know how their new IP's will be consumed. I've read diff articles about how they think it will be played one way, and players do the exact opposite to varying positive/negative outcomes.

If that's the case, I think Devs would have to skew their vision/baby in ways they don't really want to meet this unorthodox (to them initially) play style.

Now they're stuck making a game they didn't really envision to meet the needs they never intended.

How can they design game mechanics around that and still avoid feature creep?

It seems like they either need to 'kitchen sink' every mechanic into every game or design a very specific game for very specific players, and losing all that potential money from everyone else.

We want Dev's to meet their goals, deliver on their promises and provide a fun gaming experience, but do we also expect perfection for every gameplay style? I don't know man...

I don't power level, unless I'm pretty familiar with the lore/story already, but I've never been a min/maxer, so I can't say for sure if their play style hurts me. I've never had the time/patience to play like that, so I guess I'm a Casual. I don't think Devs mind though, because as I've said before I have a 1K+ backlog of games I need to play, so they've already gotten my money either way regardless of how I play.

Gut Out!

WarEnsemble · November 2019

ultimateduck said:

Over the course of the many years I've played MMO(RPGs) I've noticed a trend. There is a growing group of people that get into a game and rush to the end, skipping any and all content in between.

You may ask "why is this a problem, they can play how they want". Well, I think it's because of the way a MMO(RPG) is designed. It is meant to be played at a different pace than how powergamers play it. While half the population is taking in the content, even if it's just a little, the other half is racing to the end, then complaining that there is no endgame.

Sometimes this is a flaw of the game because there simply is no endgame. Perhaps the developers thought they would have a few weeks after release to implement at least some of the endgame content. But other times it's because the endgame requires a larger population that isn't there yet because they are actually enjoying the game. Of course, sometimes it's a combination of the two.

This becomes an issue when the impatient powergamers go on an anti-[insert game here] rant campaign and quit, leaving the game with a substantially lower population which in turn has an effect on every other part of the game. Then, when other people listen to their nonstop ranting about how the game is incomplete, they will be swayed into not trying out what could be a great game because they are listening to people who really didn't play the game as it was meant to be played.

This is not to say that some games deserve bad press and reviews. A crap game is a crap game. Some do not ,but they get bad reviews regardless because people skip what makes them a good game.

Do stupid posts ruin forums?

Maurgrim · November 2019

It's the mentality of "games starts at endgame" that ruins it.

Gutlard · November 2019

WarEnsemble said:

ultimateduck said:

...

Do stupid posts ruin forums?

If so, then I've finally found something I'm l33t at!

Gut Out!

ultimateduck · November 2019

WarEnsemble said:

Do stupid posts ruin forums?

Not as much as stupid answers do.

olepi · November 2019

I saw this progression in the early days of DAOC. At first, just grouping up to go farming mobs was a blast. A new experience as this was my first MMO.

But then ToA came out and suddenly people had these long task forces to do, and then you had to be on time, follow orders, stay the whole time, etc. It started to become a chore.

And now, we have gamers who just want the levels. In some games, it's called a "speed run". They don't want to absorb any content, the goal is to get to the end as fast as possible. No time to look at anything, no time to take in the content.

And of course, if you mess up, it's bad. I saw a player get literally yelled at because he brought the wrong equipment to a raid. If you get on a speed run and take even one extra minute, they will just leave you.

I like to play an MMO as if I lived there. "Live in the virtual world". So I don't like speed runs and all that goes with it. It doesn't ruin the game for me, though.

ultimateduck · November 2019

olepi said:

I saw this progression in the early days of DAOC. At first, just grouping up to go farming mobs was a blast. A new experience as this was my first MMO.

But then ToA came out and suddenly people had these long task forces to do, and then you had to be on time, follow orders, stay the whole time, etc. It started to become a chore.

And now, we have gamers who just want the levels. In some games, it's called a "speed run". They don't want to absorb any content, the goal is to get to the end as fast as possible. No time to look at anything, no time to take in the content.

And of course, if you mess up, it's bad. I saw a player get literally yelled at because he brought the wrong equipment to a raid. If you get on a speed run and take even one extra minute, they will just leave you.

I like to play an MMO as if I lived there. "Live in the virtual world". So I don't like speed runs and all that goes with it. It doesn't ruin the game for me, though.

I generally don't let others ruin a game for me as an individual. I was referring to powergamers ruining the game or genre as a whole. Are games being dumbed down so the average player can keep up. Is content being replaced with convenience? Are a games economy or population adversely effected by people who rush to the end and quit? Stuff like that.

WarEnsemble · November 2019

Maurgrim said:

It's the mentality of "games starts at endgame" that ruins it.

I don't necessarily agree with this statement. I am one of those people who want to get right to the end of the game because the only thing I care about in games is improving my character. That next level, that next spell, that next piece of gear or raid zone, etc. Getting to the max level for me has the psychological effect of "taking something off my plate" so I can focus on other things. I admit that I am in an extreme minority of gamers though.

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