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Why do people seek PvP?
Chimborazo
Member UncommonPosts: 146
Still for the sake of discussion, and maybe helping me figure out what I should look in a next MMO.
I've seen that PvE mainly and PvE only players are the most common, then there are PvP only players who are not interested in PvE.
They might seek instanced, perfectly balanced PvP to test their skill against other capable players in order to rise to the top, and that I can fully understand.
Then there's the crowd who seek open world open PvP, high risk high reward (full loot?) experience and they despise PvE cause it's easy, boring, predictable ecc.
In my process of reflecting on the true nature of some aspects of gaming, I have come with yet another question : is it really a matter of people or AI?
The average PvE themepark is usually more laid back in open content, they don't push you a lot, only raid content that becomes predictable offer some sort of challenge etc. But if you think about it for a moment, this are not features that are intrinsecally tied to a PvE game, it's just the default choice.
The issues I've had with open PvP (and I fear this is tied with most kind of deeply player driven content) is that people are flawed, have their limits as people (can't be connected 24 / 7) and you can also count on drama, griefing etc.
Some would say that if you're playng an MMO you have to do it to play with people, and I agree with that, but maybe we should be more realistic and find a middle ground.
I'm asking PvP fans who actively seek open world PvP: what if a game put at the core of the game an open PvE system, very little instanced content, good AI with mobs that provide challenge (not in the way big raid bosses have done to this day) dynamic events where the mobs actually seek to destroy you and conquer your territories, while you are also able to conquer their base etc, meaningful death penalty.
Does this type of game still (which doesn't exist I think) not appeal to you?
Let me know what you think
I've seen that PvE mainly and PvE only players are the most common, then there are PvP only players who are not interested in PvE.
They might seek instanced, perfectly balanced PvP to test their skill against other capable players in order to rise to the top, and that I can fully understand.
Then there's the crowd who seek open world open PvP, high risk high reward (full loot?) experience and they despise PvE cause it's easy, boring, predictable ecc.
In my process of reflecting on the true nature of some aspects of gaming, I have come with yet another question : is it really a matter of people or AI?
The average PvE themepark is usually more laid back in open content, they don't push you a lot, only raid content that becomes predictable offer some sort of challenge etc. But if you think about it for a moment, this are not features that are intrinsecally tied to a PvE game, it's just the default choice.
The issues I've had with open PvP (and I fear this is tied with most kind of deeply player driven content) is that people are flawed, have their limits as people (can't be connected 24 / 7) and you can also count on drama, griefing etc.
Some would say that if you're playng an MMO you have to do it to play with people, and I agree with that, but maybe we should be more realistic and find a middle ground.
I'm asking PvP fans who actively seek open world PvP: what if a game put at the core of the game an open PvE system, very little instanced content, good AI with mobs that provide challenge (not in the way big raid bosses have done to this day) dynamic events where the mobs actually seek to destroy you and conquer your territories, while you are also able to conquer their base etc, meaningful death penalty.
Does this type of game still (which doesn't exist I think) not appeal to you?
Let me know what you think
Currently on: Guild Wars 2
Comments
I'm not a fan of arena PvP (usually), because the objectives don't tend to be compelling like they are for a MOBA.
I'm not a fan of free for all PvP, because non-consensual PvP isn't competitive; it's inconvenient at best and outright harassment at worst.
As for your concept of PvE-only faction wars, I'd certainly enjoy that. It's not an entirely new idea. Just an uncommon one. Firefall tried it (until it changed its mind).
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I've had my fair share of open PvP in GW2, that mode is not the core of the game and has its flaws but I've noticed that, even if my side had the right amount and quality of people, the fun would only come if also the other enemy players were in the right situation, in the right numbers moving on the right way etc. This situation hasn't happened to me that often to be honest, I know you could work on the mechanics of the open world PvP itself to improve the situation a bit but in the end you can't control players.
I think (but I'm far from an expert) it's more reasonable trying to make a PvE open system (heavily cooperative on large scale, that's the part you can't find on RPG) that gets closer to "perfection".
At the same time, pvp tends to create strong tribal bonds with other like minded pvpers in the struggle to survive and dominate. This is an additional type of connection that pve games very rarely manage to replicate with the same intensity.
Lastly, variety. No AI will ever create the endless content that a competing human mind will. Its endless, ever changing, hyper competitive entertainment.
"hard" PvE like it's been done many times is not my cup of tea tbh, it's usually a combination of grind to have the right gear / stars + 10/15 minutes spent around a single raid boss who has many phases and you have to not fail / mess up under pressure. That's the kind of situation you can "master" with time. I don't believe you can make a PvE encounter as good and varied as a PvP one (altho there are lots of bad players and lame unbalanced builds out there) but we can definitely improve from the current situation :
About the "grand scheme" of PvE, the "dynamic event" you probably don't even need an AI, several game master that works behind the scenes and play the game similar to a strategy game against the players seams doable.
Chimborazo said: Not particularly. That genuinely doesn't sound like a middle ground. It sounds like a safe space MMO that caters to only one playstyle. PvP is a dirty, toxic, mud slinging cess pool. And that's the way it should be, because most people inherently want to do dirty, toxic, things. Keyboard warriors, ones who will always say nasty things to you on the internet certainly wouldn't do the same thing in real life because in real life we live in a civilized society where certain things can be socially punished. When you remove that outlet by removing a negative player interaction like that for the sake of other people who don't want to partake in it, those people bottle up those negative emotions. If you don't enjoy pvp, then you don't enjoy pvp. But presenting this 'tofu-alternative,' to pvp is essentially trying to bait people into being vegans.
Players who engage in PvP would eventually corrupt their souls to the point of permanent physical transformation into a new race, and they'd all form into one hostile faction in the center of the world that everyone must unite against.
That way, the douchefucks of the world would eventually have free reign to do what they want, but they would be unable to interface with the PvE component of the game at all, they'd lose all ability to interact with other factions non-violently, they'd have to sneak past the other faction's inevitable defensive borders to PK people, and they'd be identified as hostile on sight.
PvPers (in MMORPGs) seek for the most easy prey, mainly Carebears.
So what they look for is Low Risk, High Reward.
Unfortunately Carebears do not stick around for long as they are the ones subjected to the High Risk, Low Reward law.
AKA, it should be the other way round but it isn’t, for some unknown reason.
The simple fact that you like pvp does not make you a psycopath. If that was the case then anyone that ever competed in any sport or activity should be as well. There is a big distinction between the natural need to compete and dominate (which is a very primal instict dictated by nature and evolution especially in males), and a complete lack of emphaty, shame, regret, pitty, or general positive feelings of psychopaths.
Yes, the stress of competition often brings out the worst in people, especially already unhappy or frustrated people, but that doesnt make everyone a pshycopath. In fact most pshycopath are very good at appearing "nice, friendly, caring, charming even charismatic" to the world.
I would expect, as you said in a post in the middle of this thread, that GMs would also have an ability to guide the MOB side. To add to the things going on.
I'd add that the GMs could play, in-game, special Avatars such as Dragons and Demons as the "force behind the events."
I do love good PvP. But I was never for the way PvP players would roll over the rest of the game.
I do feel that there's a simple way to do a Justice System that really works. But I never get hardly any support. So screw it, better option is exactly what you are thinking.
You can still have mutually agreed on Guild Wars, too.
Once upon a time....
I played GW2 a few years ago. Silverwaste is kind of like area.
There are also some games(not mmorpg) where you try to gather resource, and on a timer zombie will attack you etc.
I understand you are talking about complicated AI, which is not the easiest thing to do. Especially on a large scale with many players involve.
Mobs attacking would then dumb the immersion and combat down to a scaling mode which is a mode i cannot stand.Otherwise how would you have the players and mobs interact when using levels?Example you make the mobs level 50 and all the players in a particular area are mostly level 10-20 they would have no chance.
So yet again FFXI had a daily event where mobs would attack enter a city and even try to capture some npc's so you could no longer use those npc's in that city.It only worked because it was geared at level 50-75 players but pretty much everyone knew it was a level 75 content idea.
We also already have several of these Age of Empire games where the AI is sort of simple and attacks your territories.
So imo these options already exist and are not going to change the mindset of a player looking for pvp.There is imo only one kind of pvp and that is pure vanilla pvp,NOTHING influences the outcome except the player,not gear,not levels,not abilities or spells,just the players.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Once upon a time....
Silverwaste is a kind of PvE content that's neither the instanced raid with big bosses or the generic "easy" open world PvE where you just jump from way point to waypoint, can avoid events and mob and travel mostly freely and decided what and when engage.
Beside what somebody mentioned in the previous post, I do like PvP and open PvP. Problems I have found in open PvP (again, some of them are tied to the way the open PvP is designed but I think the human nature also contribute to that) is that good experience is usually hanging by a thread.
If people want PvP only and are not interested in PvE because they want to rise at the top, play politics and all the other "meta" aspects that have been mentioned here, ofc the thing I'm suggesting won't be tight.
But if people are after dinamicity, struggle, feeling under pressure etc than a (big) evolution from a map like Silverwaste might be a great improvement.
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