It basically makes dying as punishing and time consuming as dying in EQ, but without the boredom of a corpse run.
Only until the novelty of it wears off... after that it'd be just as a boredom.
Illusionist's arena comes to mind in Neverwinter, it had a similar thing and I don't remember anyone who liked it.
After you died (and the party didn't rez you on the spot, since they were busy themselves with surviving) you ended up in a section with a crash course scattered with traps, in case the original injuries from the death penalty weren't enough... if you could get through, you got back to the arena, badly damaged. If you couldn't, you were stucked there until the group is finished (win, or dead).
At first it was interesting, then a challenge to find the best routes, and after that just a routine and an annoyance. At the end it only served as a trap for newbie players without the routine and knowledge of the course, but with it leaving the group one man short thus making the survival tougher.
Your criticism doesn't really make sense. You died, of course your party is going to be down a player.
What happens when you die in other MMOs?
WoW: You die and either get a rez or you respawn a 5-10 minute run away.
EQ: You die and either get a rez or respawn a 5-300 minute run away.
UO: You die and either get a rez or run around as a ghost looking for an NPC healer or shrine which could take quite a while and then run back to your corpse to get your equipment.
TERA: You die and either rez or respawn back in town and have to run back.
Repeat for almost every MMO on the market.
How is running back from a bind point more interesting and less repetitive than what I'm proposing?
I see it as a "gimmick", the death game within the game. Gimmicks wear thin, fast.
Look at what happens in many GW2 dynamic events. Many players can't be bothered anymore.
I recall Red Dead Redemption 2 and hearing "Cool! I pick up every single item, in real time!" then, "JESUS! Can I just grab it all, now?!?!?"
I've seen many "neat and nifty" ideas that were just gimmicks in the end. "Death Game" seems to be just one more to me.
I could be totally wrong. Won't be the last time for that
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
It basically makes dying as punishing and time consuming as dying in EQ, but without the boredom of a corpse run.
Only until the novelty of it wears off... after that it'd be just as a boredom.
[...]
At first it was interesting, then a challenge to find the best routes, and after that just a routine and an annoyance.
Your criticism doesn't really make sense.
[...]
How is running back from a bind point more interesting and less repetitive than what I'm proposing?
I see it as a "gimmick", the death game within the game. Gimmicks wear thin, fast.
What Al says.
After the months of lashing out at Legends I try to avoid using the g-word, but in here that's more perfect than my long example was: it's just a gimmick.
At first interesting, but after a while (in your case when it's explored and the shortest route to the demon with the best bargain offer is mapped, heck even added a "when you die" mod/plugin for the convenience) it will turn into a bore, and eventually you just replace an annoyance with an another annoyance.
People are in the game to play the game. Death penalty is called penalty for a reason, you don't play the game while you're out.
And unless you add something meaningful for that time (like TSW did, as I cited before), the different mechanics in case of death, being it a corpse run, a bargaining for your life like Wizardry did, etc. will all just be a gimmick, something un-fun which prevents you from the actual fun, that is playing the game.
ed: btw that's why death penalties were watered down over the years, as it was discussed a couple times already in death penalty threads. They were never popular, so devs try to make them as smooth and least annoying as possible.
Personally I don't like that trend, but can't do anything about it (and I mostly just play old MMORPGs anyway)
It basically makes dying as punishing and time consuming as dying in EQ, but without the boredom of a corpse run.
Only until the novelty of it wears off... after that it'd be just as a boredom.
[...]
At first it was interesting, then a challenge to find the best routes, and after that just a routine and an annoyance.
Your criticism doesn't really make sense.
[...]
How is running back from a bind point more interesting and less repetitive than what I'm proposing?
I see it as a "gimmick", the death game within the game. Gimmicks wear thin, fast.
What Al says.
After the months of lashing out at Legends I try to avoid using the g-word, but in here that's more perfect than my long example was: it's just a gimmick.
At first interesting, but after a while (in your case when it's explored and the shortest route to the demon with the best bargain offer is mapped, heck even added a "when you die" mod/plugin for the convenience) it will turn into a bore, and eventually you just replace an annoyance with an another annoyance.
People are in the game to play the game. Death penalty is called penalty for a reason, you don't play the game while you're out.
And unless you add something meaningful for that time (like TSW did, as I cited before), the different mechanics in case of death, being it a corpse run, a bargaining for your life like Wizardry did, etc. will all just be a gimmick, something un-fun which prevents you from the actual fun, that is playing the game.
ed: btw that's why death penalties were watered down over the years, as it was discussed a couple times already in death penalty threads. They were never popular, so devs try to make them as smooth and least annoying as possible.
Personally I don't like that trend, but can't do anything about it (and I mostly just play old MMORPGs anyway)
I'm currently avoiding a corpse run in ssra as we speak. Summoning through a locked door .
It basically makes dying as punishing and time consuming as dying in EQ, but without the boredom of a corpse run.
Only until the novelty of it wears off... after that it'd be just as a boredom.
[...]
At first it was interesting, then a challenge to find the best routes, and after that just a routine and an annoyance.
Your criticism doesn't really make sense.
[...]
How is running back from a bind point more interesting and less repetitive than what I'm proposing?
I see it as a "gimmick", the death game within the game. Gimmicks wear thin, fast.
What Al says.
After the months of lashing out at Legends I try to avoid using the g-word, but in here that's more perfect than my long example was: it's just a gimmick.
At first interesting, but after a while (in your case when it's explored and the shortest route to the demon with the best bargain offer is mapped, heck even added a "when you die" mod/plugin for the convenience) it will turn into a bore, and eventually you just replace an annoyance with an another annoyance.
People are in the game to play the game. Death penalty is called penalty for a reason, you don't play the game while you're out.
And unless you add something meaningful for that time (like TSW did, as I cited before), the different mechanics in case of death, being it a corpse run, a bargaining for your life like Wizardry did, etc. will all just be a gimmick, something un-fun which prevents you from the actual fun, that is playing the game.
ed: btw that's why death penalties were watered down over the years, as it was discussed a couple times already in death penalty threads. They were never popular, so devs try to make them as smooth and least annoying as possible.
Personally I don't like that trend, but can't do anything about it (and I mostly just play old MMORPGs anyway)
I'm currently avoiding a corpse run in ssra as we speak. Summoning through a locked door .
I liked what they did with Dark Souls. You could die and continue to play as a ghost, and later come back. Plus being able to write messages for other players to read was epic.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
I always pictured a game with an afterlife or spirit realm. Even quest there. Options of traveling and reviving somewhere else.
Cons of deterioration of character longer there and from attacks by creatures there. Could be a debuff or perm loss.
Where do you go if you "die" while dead?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I always pictured a game with an afterlife or spirit realm. Even quest there. Options of traveling and reviving somewhere else.
Where do you go if you "die" while dead?
With the risk of sounding like a broken record, TSW? (for the third time )
Exploration, travel, mission hints and clues, sometimes the entire mission -minus the NPC conversation- in there, etc.
It had all what Vermillion seeks.
Except attacks, and the timer. You could stay there as long as you wanted to, or needed for missions.
And it was a non-combat realm, since why fight when you're dead already, right?
Hell, it was so much used for fast traveling (and with a plugin to undress before, thus avoiding the repair costs which supposed to be a PAX sink) Funcom even had to add the feature of anima travel into the game officially, and at the same time they removed the porting from anima form - of course they added the travel for a price, thus the PAX sink was unavoidable after... sure it was more convenient, so there was a trade-off.
Instead of finding my corpse, perhaps an alternate plane of existence unlocks and I could help other souls in order to resurrect into a new character. Something sort of persistent,with death having some weight, but also a form of advancement; an old soul.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
How about cloning and being able to activate your clone when you die, if you made a clone? Then your clone could recover your gear within a certain amount of time.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
How about cloning and being able to activate your clone when you die, if you made a clone? Then your clone could recover your gear within a certain amount of time.
FoM had that. I'm so sad/pissed about that game...
Don't get me wrong, I don't like pvp but that's just my taste. I'd never rally with signs for "PvE into EVE/DF/MO/Aion/ <insert any pvp-focus MMORPG>".
FoM was the exception, that game had so many awesome and interesting ideas, fun mechanics - just that the full open pvp could kill the game as soon as it stood up. And then after the relaunch. Then after the relaunch's relaunch - rinse and repeat for about a decade.
A PvE server, or pvp zones, or toggle, or anything really... and I'm sure more players would've jumped on it. Sadly those dimwits were adamant on "it should be full pvp because that's fun".
Yep, now they have a dead game. So much fun, right?
My rambling aside, it was working just like that. You could buy insurance and stock a few clones in case you die. If you ran out of money and clones, that was permadeath - yep, if Wizardry devs thought naysayers are stupid and just whining about the issues of permadeath in pvp, they should've only looked at the multiple crashes of FoM in the previous years...
A more thorough presentation, youtube still has the tutorial videos from the relaunch 10 years ago https://youtu.be/XuySy65tfB4
Just throwing out an idea here. When you die, your spirit goes into a random animal or beast. Maybe it's weighted by the things your Character has done, accomplished, in their life. Maybe you get a choice, if you have the right experiences. You can be Resed, but it's your choice to accept it or stay as the critter you've become. Your corpse can be carried back and buried in a cemetery. And at any time you can go to your grave and Res as your old self. BUT if your corpse hasn't been buried in a Sanctified Cemetery, you are stuck as the animal/beast until someone Reses your bones (likely represented as just a few bone shards) where you died.
As the animal or beast, you can build skills associated with it, and become a more powerful version of that critter. You can also pick up magical abilities, innate or spell casting. You in essence become a mythical creature.
But you're unlikely to get a reincarnation form that you like, so usually you'll Res. But some few times between the entire player base, a very unique mythical beast might be born.
I enjoyed the rule set in EQ like many here, but games have moved on from that tbh. You can't have people losing levels or 4 hours of farming experience because some moron trained them in a dungeon. Especially if you make levelling matter with a slower transition to max level.
There's a lot of room for devs to fit different styles into death rules of course. But the old days of brutal experience hits and corpse runs are gone. And any game that tries to do that will have a very small subscriber base of old school masochists yelling for new players to get off their lawn.
Comments
Look at what happens in many GW2 dynamic events. Many players can't be bothered anymore.
I recall Red Dead Redemption 2 and hearing "Cool! I pick up every single item, in real time!" then, "JESUS! Can I just grab it all, now?!?!?"
I've seen many "neat and nifty" ideas that were just gimmicks in the end. "Death Game" seems to be just one more to me.
I could be totally wrong. Won't be the last time for that
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Imagine having to die 100 times to beat a boss "and" have harsh death penalty. It simply dont' work.
Cons of deterioration of character longer there and from attacks by creatures there. Could be a debuff or perm loss.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
When you die, your spirit goes into a random animal or beast. Maybe it's weighted by the things your Character has done, accomplished, in their life. Maybe you get a choice, if you have the right experiences.
You can be Resed, but it's your choice to accept it or stay as the critter you've become.
Your corpse can be carried back and buried in a cemetery. And at any time you can go to your grave and Res as your old self.
BUT if your corpse hasn't been buried in a Sanctified Cemetery, you are stuck as the animal/beast until someone Reses your bones (likely represented as just a few bone shards) where you died.
As the animal or beast, you can build skills associated with it, and become a more powerful version of that critter. You can also pick up magical abilities, innate or spell casting. You in essence become a mythical creature.
But you're unlikely to get a reincarnation form that you like, so usually you'll Res. But some few times between the entire player base, a very unique mythical beast might be born.
Once upon a time....
There's a lot of room for devs to fit different styles into death rules of course. But the old days of brutal experience hits and corpse runs are gone. And any game that tries to do that will have a very small subscriber base of old school masochists yelling for new players to get off their lawn.