"Open world pvp is more about "anything can happen at any time."
That wasn't ever my experience...i found open world PVP meant high level players spawn camping lowbies and just one shotting them as long as they could...It was never fun, never an even match, just sheer idiocy. When you add full loot into the mix then it gets even more ridiculous....They don't kill you for your loot but they kill you for the sheer joy of it, to ruin your play experience.
I may actually try this now. The last time I tried a PvP server was in AOC and there were griefers & campers everywhere. It was literally impossible to complete any quests.
Sure, there are poisonous people who get off on ruining other's play time. No argument there. But that's "another thing."
They are kind of the outliers.
Yeah... no. I've played enough OWPvP games to know for a fact that these are not rare outliers but a very common part of all of them.
The rosy picture you paint of that sense of danger that gets you more into the game sounds nice in theory but it has never been anything but theory.
Even if the poisonous people are a minority it doesn't take many of them to ruin it for everyone.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
as a casual player, I will now look into this game. I like to pvp, I dont mind forced pvp and ganking even. What I dont have is much time to play, and if the whole time I am, I am running from high levels, or doing corpse runs, well I am not going to play
Why are games like Fortnite or PUBG so popular? Full loot PvP works so do you lose a lot in Fortnite or PUBG and can you get back up fast was my question. I've never played them so have no idea so I am curious and my opinion is that games where you tend to lose a lot of time or gear when full loot PvP is in force will not be successful and wish to know if I am right about these two games.
I am aware that you may lose a fortune in EVE but I also read that type of sting takes very long to set up. I also hear people don't fly what you cannot afford to lose leading me to believe people play very carefully. That was the same in Everquest you played carefully there too and could lose everything if you're not careful in it's early days albeit it was a PvE game.
For the same reason shooters have been popular for 20 years +: casual 10 minute matches with disposable characters. It has always been a whole different PvP genre with 0 attachment to your character.
Shooters are a whole different type of game that have no business being discussed in the same thread as RPGs and MMORPGs that are all about character development and attachment to that character.
You say that but posters like @bcbully and @ikcin keep telling us how the popularity of those games are evidence that FFA full loot PvP is what the masses love and those of us who enjoy MMORPGs don't understand this. We here in this forum are the deluded ones that continue with our mistaken belief and we are simply too stupid to see where the genre is going.
I think MMORPGs that take a long time to develop your character don't enjoy losing their gear and loot especially when getting them back take months of work. Hence why I tried to ask about Fortnite and PUBG to argue why that system will not fair well for an MMORPG where character development and gear are king.
I am also at a very big loss why people always argue that PvP and PvE servers just make the PvP servers less popular. When WoW classic opened there were far more PvP servers than PvE servers although many did end up requesting for transfers out of the PvP servers they were getting ganked in. Another untruth revealed by what happened in WoW.
These developers here did specifically say they are not going to devote the resources to PvP and PvE servers. That is however a different issue but the games that can create both types of servers do benefit from appealing to both types of players. Even DAoC had PvE servers like Gaheris.
I simply cannot fathom why opt in and out is such an anathema to PvPers.
Why are games like Fortnite or PUBG so popular? Full loot PvP works so do you lose a lot in Fortnite or PUBG and can you get back up fast was my question. I've never played them so have no idea so I am curious and my opinion is that games where you tend to lose a lot of time or gear when full loot PvP is in force will not be successful and wish to know if I am right about these two games.
I am aware that you may lose a fortune in EVE but I also read that type of sting takes very long to set up. I also hear people don't fly what you cannot afford to lose leading me to believe people play very carefully. That was the same in Everquest you played carefully there too and could lose everything if you're not careful in it's early days albeit it was a PvE game.
For the same reason shooters have been popular for 20 years +: casual 10 minute matches with disposable characters. It has always been a whole different PvP genre with 0 attachment to your character.
Shooters are a whole different type of game that have no business being discussed in the same thread as RPGs and MMORPGs that are all about character development and attachment to that character.
You say that but posters like @bcbully and @ikcin keep telling us how the popularity of those games are evidence that FFA full loot PvP is what the masses love and those of us who enjoy MMORPGs don't understand this. We here in this forum are the deluded ones that continue with our mistaken belief and we are simply too stupid to see where the genre is going.
I think MMORPGs that take a long time to develop your character don't enjoy losing their gear and loot especially when getting them back take months of work. Hence why I tried to ask about Fortnite and PUBG to argue why that system will not fair well for an MMORPG where character development and gear are king.
Well don't fall for the false examples
The popularity of those games means only that those casual games where everyone starts at the same level with the same gear and play for 10 minutes and then you do it all again are just as popular today as they were when it was Doom and Quake you did that in. Casual shooters have always been more popular than RPGs and especially MMORPGs.
But they are totally meaningless in any discussion about MMORPG PvP which is a different beast altogether. RPGs are about developing your character and acquiring or crafting special gear over a long time. You are naturally much more attached to your character and gear than you would be in quickie, casual shooters where everything resets in 10 minutes.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
The reason why PvP and PvE servers tends not to work is because the griefers want EASY prey. If you put the PvP people all together then they can anticipate a roughly level playing field plus if you grief then other PvP people will be on their way to deal with you. If you have PvP and PvE together then the PvP people win the vast majority of engagements which is much more fun for them, and the networking isn't there to bounty-kill the baser elements.
There are a lot of PvP people without high skills who would win maybe 30% on a PvP server and leave but win 75%+ on a mixed server to their satisfaction and ego.
"Open world pvp is more about "anything can happen at any time."
That wasn't ever my experience...i found open world PVP meant high level players spawn camping lowbies and just one shotting them as long as they could...It was never fun, never an even match, just sheer idiocy. When you add full loot into the mix then it gets even more ridiculous....They don't kill you for your loot but they kill you for the sheer joy of it, to ruin your play experience.
I think that speaks to the type of people who "do that."
I remember, in Lineage 2, there were people like that. And actually, it made for some fun times in Dark Elf Village, trying to escape while the invincible players were outside.
It's sort of like in the game "Amnesia" when you (*SPOILERS HERE!!!) in the basement and there is that invisible spirit that you can't fight against but have to be very careful and figure out how to get out.
end spoilers
Again, in Lineage 2, we had a lot of battles, clan vs clan and even alliance vs alliance that way.
And I'm not saying it's spontaneous equal players vs equal players. That's not the point.
Some of the largest over-world battles were done where one player took out another player "just cause."
But, and it can't be stressed enough, if this type of play is not for you then DON'T BE THERE!.
Why subject yourself to something you don't want? no point.
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My hype for this game is gone. I was looking for a new Ultima Online (pre-trammel) or Darkfall Online, but they killed the PvP and turned it into something consensual and instanced.
no offense but forced pvp games ALWAYS fail. like really now days it is not something anyone can truely enjoy long term. With hackers and cheaters and what not.
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I simply cannot fathom why opt in and out is such an anathema to PvPers.
It's like I said, it's about full shared experience. Otherwise there are two separate games going on.
And right back at you, I simply cannot fathom why playing a game where the ruleset is not to the taste of players, is then played by those players.
Well, then again of course I can. Players want every game to cater to everything that they want out of a game. They want to do what they want to do.
It's the single player game mentality. "This is catered for me and you can have what's catered to you."
Play a pve game. Problem solved.
Yeah but this is making the game about you and what PVPer's want right? How can you even call it a shared experience at all? It's giving you what you want not what a PVE player wants. So an opt-in option would be more of a shared experience. It gives everyone what they want.
I simply cannot fathom why opt in and out is such an anathema to PvPers.
It's like I said, it's about full shared experience. Otherwise there are two separate games going on.
And right back at you, I simply cannot fathom why playing a game where the ruleset is not to the taste of players, is then played by those players.
Well, then again of course I can. Players want every game to cater to everything that they want out of a game. They want to do what they want to do.
It's the single player game mentality. "This is catered for me and you can have what's catered to you."
Play a pve game. Problem solved.
Yeah but this is making the game about you and what PVPer's want right? How can you even call it a shared experience at all? It's giving you what you want not what a PVE player wants. So an opt-in option would be more of a shared experience. It gives everyone what they want.
Not sure why this has to keep being repeated. If a game is a pvp game then of course it's what pvp players want.
Is this not clear? If you play a pvp game then it's a pvp game.
To add, if a game is a pve game and pvp players keep crying about "not good pvp" then touch for them. It's a pve game.
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PvE players playing a PvP game: I don't like this game! Change it to what I want!
PvP players playing a PvE game: (literally doesn't happen)
I'm not going to go to their LotR game and demand open world PvP, yet the PvE crowd came to New World and demanded PvP removed. This will always be the big fundamental difference between the two sides, one is vocal and greedy, the other continues waiting patiently for decades on a game that is never coming.
PvE players also continue to show their complete lack of understanding in regards to what PvP players actually want, and for most of them it is easier to just toss them into the 'griefer' category. Extremely disrespectful.
PvE players playing a PvP game: I don't like this game! Change it to what I want!
PvP players playing a PvE game: (literally doesn't happen)
I'm not going to go to their LotR game and demand open world PvP, yet the PvE crowd came to New World and demanded PvP removed. This will always be the big fundamental difference between the two sides, one is vocal and greedy, the other continues waiting patiently for decades on a game that is never coming.
PvE players also continue to show their complete lack of understanding in regards to what PvP players actually want, and for most of them it is easier to just toss them into the 'griefer' category. Extremely disrespectful.
Absolutely. They hone in on the people with huge issues and just say that everyone is like that.
I'll add something to what you said about pve players and pvp playrs playing the "opposite" type of game.
Seldom are there solely pvp games. usually there is some bit of pve that is required.
Again, Lineage 2 had pve, it was how one leveled. I remember a large group of us standing around, ready for a raid (Lilith I think) and there were a small group of players complaining that they hated all of this and just wanted to pvp.
Well, they had to suck it up. No way around it.
Players need to understand what they are getting into. And if they can't concede that there will be aspects of the game they don't like (whether it's pvp or pve) then they should just move on.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
PvE players playing a PvP game: I don't like this game! Change it to what I want!
PvP players playing a PvE game: (literally doesn't happen)
I'm not going to go to their LotR game and demand open world PvP, yet the PvE crowd came to New World and demanded PvP removed. This will always be the big fundamental difference between the two sides, one is vocal and greedy, the other continues waiting patiently for decades on a game that is never coming.
PvE players also continue to show their complete lack of understanding in regards to what PvP players actually want, and for most of them it is easier to just toss them into the 'griefer' category. Extremely disrespectful.
No, this is a byproduct of Developers trying to get PvE players into their PvP game, thinking that somehow magically these PvE players will learn to love PvP.. it Never Fucking Happens..
The fact that the Devs thought it would shows they have little to no idea what they are doing and that is why their games ultimately fail.
It's not PvP vs PvE, it's game developers not learning from the mistakes of the past.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
yep. so many games i've looked at, that were advertising hard on how awesome they were, and i looked at it thinking "yeah, that does look awesome..." until i get to the bit where it says open world open pvp. the fact that this info is usually "hidden" somewhere in the game faq page (it's not right up front on the main page etc) means they're either clueless and trying to cast as wide a net as they can, which backfires (i know i typically walk away the second i see that "open world open pvp" thing), or they know what they are (really a pvp game) and are directly trying to lure people who don't typically pvp in hopes that they'll suddenly realize they love it (they almost always don't)
but see, then what happens is, you'll have a group of non-pvpers who take a look at the game, think it's awesome, get really excited about it, and then realize it's pvp... and decide that instead of walking away (like i do) they're going to complain and campaign to have it changed. sometimes they get ignored, sometimes the game maker caves... making one group happy, but upsetting the other.
if you want to make a pvp game, and cater to the people who love and want pvp. you put right on the front page right in the main description... this game is for people who want to kick the shiz out of each other. heck, put it in the name if you can.
PvE players playing a PvP game: I don't like this game! Change it to what I want!
PvP players playing a PvE game: (literally doesn't happen)
I'm not going to go to their LotR game and demand open world PvP, yet the PvE crowd came to New World and demanded PvP removed. This will always be the big fundamental difference between the two sides, one is vocal and greedy, the other continues waiting patiently for decades on a game that is never coming.
PvE players also continue to show their complete lack of understanding in regards to what PvP players actually want, and for most of them it is easier to just toss them into the 'griefer' category. Extremely disrespectful.
Lmao what a huge load of baloney......
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
PvE players playing a PvP game: I don't like this game! Change it to what I want!
PvP players playing a PvE game: (literally doesn't happen)
I'm not going to go to their LotR game and demand open world PvP, yet the PvE crowd came to New World and demanded PvP removed. This will always be the big fundamental difference between the two sides, one is vocal and greedy, the other continues waiting patiently for decades on a game that is never coming.
PvE players also continue to show their complete lack of understanding in regards to what PvP players actually want, and for most of them it is easier to just toss them into the 'griefer' category. Extremely disrespectful.
No, this is a byproduct of Developers trying to get PvE players into their PvP game, thinking that somehow magically these PvE players will learn to love PvP.. it Never Fucking Happens..
The fact that the Devs thought it would shows they have little to no idea what they are doing and that is why their games ultimately fail.
It's not PvP vs PvE, it's game developers not learning from the mistakes of the past.
Another thing is the same effing shite happens in pve games where suddenly pvp is a thing, I have always been a firm believer of pve and pvp don't effing mix cause one or the other suffers for it.
Also why not have pve and pvp servers?
I remember games where you could log into a pve server one day to just chill and do your pve thing without too much hassle then the next day log in and choose a pvp server to run amock and do what ever then log in the next day back into the pve server to work off some red name pvp penalties etc etc.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
Is this game a casualty of the people campaigning for a change or the developers just deciding they were better off removing the FFA PvP?
I think people who keep saying PvE players are responsible for their PvP games being changed need to actually look at why the developers change their games. GREED! You cannot cater to both but they keep trying to and failing miserably.
My hype for this game is gone. I was looking for a new Ultima Online (pre-trammel) or Darkfall Online, but they killed the PvP and turned it into something consensual and instanced.
Why is it that PVPer's need to have open-world PVP. PVP is still in the game only you face off against like-minded players. What is this need to gank other players that don't want to PVP?. You get to gank other PVP players to test your own skill, not a non-pvp player that is just an easy kill unless that is what you really want.
Your making a lot of assumptions.
Sure, there are poisonous people who get off on ruining other's play time. No argument there. But that's "another thing."
They are kind of the outliers.
Open world pvp is more about "anything can happen at any time."
It's the surprise in the game. It's the danger. And as I've said before, having every player have the same shared experience is important. That's why I'm not necessarily a fan of instances where you can pick your difficulty.
Also, per the title of this thread, there's no such thing as forced pvp. Period. There's only "such thing" as a person buying a game that has a rule set they don't like. Or want.
You can't partake in something where the rules, the experience, the events are advertised and then saying they are forced on you.
It's like going to a water park and complaining you get wet. "It's forced!" I should be able to go on rides and not get wet."
According to the data the devs had there were enough griefers ganking lower level players to where it was a big problem.
Sorry that the outliers have ruined yet another PvP centric MMORPG, but that's how it always goes with PvP centric MMORPG's.
Your water park analogy doesn't really fit. It would be like going to a water park, and some of the biggest guys in there grabbing you, and repeatedly holding you under the water, but I guess I should have just brought bigger, and stronger friends to keep me from being water boarded...
Nobody goes to a water park and doesn't want to get wet, but they need to be getting wet at their comfort level, not yours.
Good point, @Zegaloth. If I were in a more cantankerous mood, I'd have said something different about pools. I'll just leave it to anyone curious to look up a video of pertinent scenes from the Caddyshack movie on their own. It's for their own edification.
I like pointing out that a PvP play style is intrusive in an open world environment. The PvP player can impose their style of play on PvE players at will, controlling the time, location, and nature of engagements. The PvE player can't similarly force the PvP player to sit down and listen to a bard in a tavern, or go hunting for wolf spleens. Imagine the outcry if they could!
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
My hype for this game is gone. I was looking for a new Ultima Online (pre-trammel) or Darkfall Online, but they killed the PvP and turned it into something consensual and instanced.
Why is it that PVPer's need to have open-world PVP. PVP is still in the game only you face off against like-minded players. What is this need to gank other players that don't want to PVP?. You get to gank other PVP players to test your own skill, not a non-pvp player that is just an easy kill unless that is what you really want.
Your making a lot of assumptions.
Sure, there are poisonous people who get off on ruining other's play time. No argument there. But that's "another thing."
They are kind of the outliers.
Open world pvp is more about "anything can happen at any time."
It's the surprise in the game. It's the danger. And as I've said before, having every player have the same shared experience is important. That's why I'm not necessarily a fan of instances where you can pick your difficulty.
Also, per the title of this thread, there's no such thing as forced pvp. Period. There's only "such thing" as a person buying a game that has a rule set they don't like. Or want.
You can't partake in something where the rules, the experience, the events are advertised and then saying they are forced on you.
It's like going to a water park and complaining you get wet. "It's forced!" I should be able to go on rides and not get wet."
According to the data the devs had there were enough griefers ganking lower level players to where it was a big problem.
Sorry that the outliers have ruined yet another PvP centric MMORPG, but that's how it always goes with PvP centric MMORPG's.
Your water park analogy doesn't really fit. It would be like going to a water park, and some of the biggest guys in there grabbing you, and repeatedly holding you under the water, but I guess I should have just brought bigger, and stronger friends to keep me from being water boarded...
Nobody goes to a water park and doesn't want to get wet, but they need to be getting wet at their comfort level, not yours.
No, I'd say it's like a normal dude that wants to learn karate for self defense, goes to a dojo and as soon as he sets foot inside, gets a roundhouse to the face and punched in the crotch repeatedly as he tries to get up. Then the black belt attackers are like "Git gud bro, you knew this was a karate dojo when you came in, karate happened".
Comments
The rosy picture you paint of that sense of danger that gets you more into the game sounds nice in theory but it has never been anything but theory.
Even if the poisonous people are a minority it doesn't take many of them to ruin it for everyone.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
PVP server = solution
I think MMORPGs that take a long time to develop your character don't enjoy losing their gear and loot especially when getting them back take months of work. Hence why I tried to ask about Fortnite and PUBG to argue why that system will not fair well for an MMORPG where character development and gear are king.
I am also at a very big loss why people always argue that PvP and PvE servers just make the PvP servers less popular. When WoW classic opened there were far more PvP servers than PvE servers although many did end up requesting for transfers out of the PvP servers they were getting ganked in. Another untruth revealed by what happened in WoW.
These developers here did specifically say they are not going to devote the resources to PvP and PvE servers. That is however a different issue but the games that can create both types of servers do benefit from appealing to both types of players. Even DAoC had PvE servers like Gaheris.
I simply cannot fathom why opt in and out is such an anathema to PvPers.
The popularity of those games means only that those casual games where everyone starts at the same level with the same gear and play for 10 minutes and then you do it all again are just as popular today as they were when it was Doom and Quake you did that in. Casual shooters have always been more popular than RPGs and especially MMORPGs.
But they are totally meaningless in any discussion about MMORPG PvP which is a different beast altogether. RPGs are about developing your character and acquiring or crafting special gear over a long time. You are naturally much more attached to your character and gear than you would be in quickie, casual shooters where everything resets in 10 minutes.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
There are a lot of PvP people without high skills who would win maybe 30% on a PvP server and leave but win 75%+ on a mixed server to their satisfaction and ego.
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Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
In War - Victory.
In Peace - Vigilance.
In Death - Sacrifice.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
PvP players playing a PvE game: (literally doesn't happen)
I'm not going to go to their LotR game and demand open world PvP, yet the PvE crowd came to New World and demanded PvP removed. This will always be the big fundamental difference between the two sides, one is vocal and greedy, the other continues waiting patiently for decades on a game that is never coming.
PvE players also continue to show their complete lack of understanding in regards to what PvP players actually want, and for most of them it is easier to just toss them into the 'griefer' category. Extremely disrespectful.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
The fact that the Devs thought it would shows they have little to no idea what they are doing and that is why their games ultimately fail.
It's not PvP vs PvE, it's game developers not learning from the mistakes of the past.
but see, then what happens is, you'll have a group of non-pvpers who take a look at the game, think it's awesome, get really excited about it, and then realize it's pvp... and decide that instead of walking away (like i do) they're going to complain and campaign to have it changed. sometimes they get ignored, sometimes the game maker caves... making one group happy, but upsetting the other.
if you want to make a pvp game, and cater to the people who love and want pvp. you put right on the front page right in the main description... this game is for people who want to kick the shiz out of each other. heck, put it in the name if you can.
Lmao what a huge load of baloney......
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
I think people who keep saying PvE players are responsible for their PvP games being changed need to actually look at why the developers change their games. GREED! You cannot cater to both but they keep trying to and failing miserably.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.