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ArtCraft Entertainment Closes $12m in Funding, Details Beta - MMORPG.com

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  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 44,057
    edited January 2020
    Iselin said:
    Quizzical said:
    Iselin said:
    I have yet to see any item in any game that can be bought in a cash shop that can also be obtained in the game where obtaining that thing in the game is "easy." There is no developer in their right mind who would undermine their own cash shop that way. The hook to get you to buy it is 100% to bypass the "hassle" of what we used to call playing the game in the old days :)  

    There are also very few games in 2020 that have P2W items exclusive to the cash shop. Face it, "but you can also get it in the game" is just the latest marketing version for P2W items.
    Very well then, here's an example.  In Dauntless, if you open the store and go to the "supplies" section, then the "supplies" subsection under it (yes, they gave the same name to both the top level section and one of its subsections), there are six options to buy various combinations of tonics, grenades, and pylons with "platinum", the item mall currency that is mostly purchased with real money.

    Various such consumables are useful, and you can and should use them.  But each type of consumable has a hard cap on how many you can bring into a battle, and you only have four consumable slots.  You can have essentially unlimited inventory outside of a battle, and then it automatically tops up your in-battle inventory from your long-term storage when you start a battle.  Thus, there is a hard cap on how many consumables you'll use in a given battle.  It's also likely that in most battles, you'll use a lot less than that, as it quickly becomes obvious that you've got a good team and the battle is well in hand.  There's no need to burn consumables to heal if your life is already full, for example.

    You get the slayer flask (your main healing potion) for free, but all other consumables can be crafted, in addition to buying them from the store.  If you pick up the various crafting components as you run by, you'll tend to accumulate them much faster than you actually use them to replenish the consumables that you use.

    So does that mean that the consumables in the store are completely useless?  Not quite.  before he has the chance to craft them.  But you don't have to get very far into the game before buying them from the store is pretty dumb, because they're so easy to get by crafting.

    So what do you think?  Is that "pay to win"?
    I think that this is so fucking convoluted, as most F2P shit is, that thinking about it would just give me a headache so I'll pass on the P2W question :)

    I will say that this statement...

    A brand new player who starts with zero of everything could get some useful consumables from the store

    ... is a great example of just how casual your acceptance of F2P cash shop garbage is. What ever happened to playing the game to earn your stuff? A lot of players these days will pay all kinds of money just to avoid playing the game. WTF's up with that?
    They do so because "some parts" of the game are less "fun" then others.

    Take FO76, a person might love to roam the wasteland killing everything in their paths.

    Unfortunately, this results in wear and tear on one's gear, which has to be repaired with a variety of materials, some which can be hard to get a lot of.  (Grrr, Aluminum and Waste Acid)

    One option is to scavenge cafeterias and laundrymats for Abraxo cleaner or cafeteria trays and soda cans to find the materials, though this might be difficult if one's best gear is all broken.

    The alternative is to drop $10 and buy 40 Repair Kits from the Atom store.

    Some folks will opt for the latter choice rather than struggle to do content they don't enjoy, have done so myself on occasion.

    For what it's worth, these basic repair kits are limited to restoring gear to 100%

    There are improved Repair kits (160%) which can only be earned from Queen fights which the average player doesn't get to do for quite awhile unless they have friends like I met who took me to them quite early in my progression. 

    Yes, I died alot, but still got credit / level appropriate loot from the fights including my first improved repair kits.

    At level 141 I'm long past using repair kits, I know how to efficiently salvage crafting mats and have Perk card skills which let me repair at 200%, higher than any cash shop or in game kit.




    ultimateduck

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    edited January 2020
    Kyleran said:
    Iselin said:
    Quizzical said:
    Iselin said:
    I have yet to see any item in any game that can be bought in a cash shop that can also be obtained in the game where obtaining that thing in the game is "easy." There is no developer in their right mind who would undermine their own cash shop that way. The hook to get you to buy it is 100% to bypass the "hassle" of what we used to call playing the game in the old days :)  

    There are also very few games in 2020 that have P2W items exclusive to the cash shop. Face it, "but you can also get it in the game" is just the latest marketing version for P2W items.
    Very well then, here's an example.  In Dauntless, if you open the store and go to the "supplies" section, then the "supplies" subsection under it (yes, they gave the same name to both the top level section and one of its subsections), there are six options to buy various combinations of tonics, grenades, and pylons with "platinum", the item mall currency that is mostly purchased with real money.

    Various such consumables are useful, and you can and should use them.  But each type of consumable has a hard cap on how many you can bring into a battle, and you only have four consumable slots.  You can have essentially unlimited inventory outside of a battle, and then it automatically tops up your in-battle inventory from your long-term storage when you start a battle.  Thus, there is a hard cap on how many consumables you'll use in a given battle.  It's also likely that in most battles, you'll use a lot less than that, as it quickly becomes obvious that you've got a good team and the battle is well in hand.  There's no need to burn consumables to heal if your life is already full, for example.

    You get the slayer flask (your main healing potion) for free, but all other consumables can be crafted, in addition to buying them from the store.  If you pick up the various crafting components as you run by, you'll tend to accumulate them much faster than you actually use them to replenish the consumables that you use.

    So does that mean that the consumables in the store are completely useless?  Not quite.  before he has the chance to craft them.  But you don't have to get very far into the game before buying them from the store is pretty dumb, because they're so easy to get by crafting.

    So what do you think?  Is that "pay to win"?
    I think that this is so fucking convoluted, as most F2P shit is, that thinking about it would just give me a headache so I'll pass on the P2W question :)

    I will say that this statement...

    A brand new player who starts with zero of everything could get some useful consumables from the store

    ... is a great example of just how casual your acceptance of F2P cash shop garbage is. What ever happened to playing the game to earn your stuff? A lot of players these days will pay all kinds of money just to avoid playing the game. WTF's up with that?
    They do so because "some parts" of the game are less "fun" then others.

    Take FO76, a person might love to roam the wasteland killing everything in their paths.

    Unfortunately, this results in wear and tear on one's gear, which has to be repaired with a variety of materials, some which can be hard to get a lot of.  (Grrr, Aluminum and Waste Acid)

    One option is to scavenge cafeterias and laundrymats for Abraxo cleaner or cafeteria trays and soda cans to find the materials, though this might be difficult if one's best gear is all broken.

    The alternative is to drop $10 and buy 40 Repair Kits from the Atom store.

    Some folks will opt for the latter choice rather than struggle to do content they don't enjoy, have done so myself on occasion.

    For what it's worth, these basic repair kits are limited to restoring gear to 100%

    There are improved Repair kits (160%) which can only be earned from Queen fights which the average player doesn't get to do for quite awhile unless they have friends like I met who took me to them quite early in my progression. 

    Yes, I died alot, but still got credit / level appropriate loot from the fights including my first improved repair kits.

    At level 141 I'm long past using repair kits, I know how to efficiently salvage crafting mats and have Perk card skills which let me repair at 200%, higher than any cash shop or in game kit.




    Haven't you ever stopped to wonder what tweaks and patches might be made to games to make them more enjoyable if they didn't instead monetize relief from inconvenience in cash shops? I mean... wouldn't it be possible to make aluminum and wasate acid drops more common or the mats requiremenst for repair kits need less of it... or both?

    Is there any other industry other than gaming where they could get away with this?

    Customer:  "Hey this fridge makes a lot of noise during the defrost cycle."
    Manufacturer: "Yes we know about it and we have a fix for it. It'll only cost you $100 more."

    Games without cash shops change parts of their games all the time to provide, they hope, a better experience. Games with cash shops just don't have that incentive if they can monetize ways around it instead.

    Some games (I wrote a post explaining how ESO did it with housing a couple of years back) even build in deliberate inconvenience they know will annoy players just to open more monetization opportunities.

    There's something rotten in the state of Denmark, I tell ya :) And we just go along with it and accept it as inevitable and a problem that is unfixable. 

    Sell the game and charge a damn sub if it's a persistent online game world, There was never anything wrong with that and there still wouldn't be if the masses hadn't been seduced by the promise of "free" since now they could play 17 games at once instead of just one with a sub.

    Meanwhile publishers discovered they could have it all. Up front box cost... check. Cash shop... check. "Optional" sub... check. And now we think that's the way things should be.

    It's a rotten industry.


    AlleinGdemami
    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 25,499
    Iselin said:
    Quizzical said:
    Iselin said:
    I have yet to see any item in any game that can be bought in a cash shop that can also be obtained in the game where obtaining that thing in the game is "easy." There is no developer in their right mind who would undermine their own cash shop that way. The hook to get you to buy it is 100% to bypass the "hassle" of what we used to call playing the game in the old days :)  

    There are also very few games in 2020 that have P2W items exclusive to the cash shop. Face it, "but you can also get it in the game" is just the latest marketing version for P2W items.
    Very well then, here's an example.  In Dauntless, if you open the store and go to the "supplies" section, then the "supplies" subsection under it (yes, they gave the same name to both the top level section and one of its subsections), there are six options to buy various combinations of tonics, grenades, and pylons with "platinum", the item mall currency that is mostly purchased with real money.

    Various such consumables are useful, and you can and should use them.  But each type of consumable has a hard cap on how many you can bring into a battle, and you only have four consumable slots.  You can have essentially unlimited inventory outside of a battle, and then it automatically tops up your in-battle inventory from your long-term storage when you start a battle.  Thus, there is a hard cap on how many consumables you'll use in a given battle.  It's also likely that in most battles, you'll use a lot less than that, as it quickly becomes obvious that you've got a good team and the battle is well in hand.  There's no need to burn consumables to heal if your life is already full, for example.

    You get the slayer flask (your main healing potion) for free, but all other consumables can be crafted, in addition to buying them from the store.  If you pick up the various crafting components as you run by, you'll tend to accumulate them much faster than you actually use them to replenish the consumables that you use.

    So does that mean that the consumables in the store are completely useless?  Not quite.  before he has the chance to craft them.  But you don't have to get very far into the game before buying them from the store is pretty dumb, because they're so easy to get by crafting.

    So what do you think?  Is that "pay to win"?
    I think that this is so fucking convoluted, as most F2P shit is, that thinking about it would just give me a headache so I'll pass on the P2W question :)

    I will say that this statement...

    A brand new player who starts with zero of everything could get some useful consumables from the store

    ... is a great example of just how casual your acceptance of F2P cash shop garbage is. What ever happened to playing the game to earn your stuff? A lot of players these days will pay all kinds of money just to avoid playing the game. WTF's up with that?
    If you're going to argue that consumables in the Dauntless item mall might be pay to win, then you're only a very small step away from arguing that absolutely any form of pay at all constitutes pay to win.

    In the case of Dauntless, you could argue that middleman slots and elite hunt pass are some form of "pay to win".  I find them unobjectionable because they're so limited ($10 once to max your middleman slots and $10 per 5-7 weeks for elite hunt pass) and there's nothing worse in the item mall.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 44,057
    edited January 2020
    Quizzical said:
    Iselin said:
    Quizzical said:
    Iselin said:
    I have yet to see any item in any game that can be bought in a cash shop that can also be obtained in the game where obtaining that thing in the game is "easy." There is no developer in their right mind who would undermine their own cash shop that way. The hook to get you to buy it is 100% to bypass the "hassle" of what we used to call playing the game in the old days :)  

    There are also very few games in 2020 that have P2W items exclusive to the cash shop. Face it, "but you can also get it in the game" is just the latest marketing version for P2W items.
    Very well then, here's an example.  In Dauntless, if you open the store and go to the "supplies" section, then the "supplies" subsection under it (yes, they gave the same name to both the top level section and one of its subsections), there are six options to buy various combinations of tonics, grenades, and pylons with "platinum", the item mall currency that is mostly purchased with real money.

    Various such consumables are useful, and you can and should use them.  But each type of consumable has a hard cap on how many you can bring into a battle, and you only have four consumable slots.  You can have essentially unlimited inventory outside of a battle, and then it automatically tops up your in-battle inventory from your long-term storage when you start a battle.  Thus, there is a hard cap on how many consumables you'll use in a given battle.  It's also likely that in most battles, you'll use a lot less than that, as it quickly becomes obvious that you've got a good team and the battle is well in hand.  There's no need to burn consumables to heal if your life is already full, for example.

    You get the slayer flask (your main healing potion) for free, but all other consumables can be crafted, in addition to buying them from the store.  If you pick up the various crafting components as you run by, you'll tend to accumulate them much faster than you actually use them to replenish the consumables that you use.

    So does that mean that the consumables in the store are completely useless?  Not quite.  before he has the chance to craft them.  But you don't have to get very far into the game before buying them from the store is pretty dumb, because they're so easy to get by crafting.

    So what do you think?  Is that "pay to win"?
    I think that this is so fucking convoluted, as most F2P shit is, that thinking about it would just give me a headache so I'll pass on the P2W question :)

    I will say that this statement...

    A brand new player who starts with zero of everything could get some useful consumables from the store

    ... is a great example of just how casual your acceptance of F2P cash shop garbage is. What ever happened to playing the game to earn your stuff? A lot of players these days will pay all kinds of money just to avoid playing the game. WTF's up with that?
    If you're going to argue that consumables in the Dauntless item mall might be pay to win, then you're only a very small step away from arguing that absolutely any form of pay at all constitutes pay to win.

    In the case of Dauntless, you could argue that middleman slots and elite hunt pass are some form of "pay to win".  I find them unobjectionable because they're so limited ($10 once to max your middleman slots and $10 per 5-7 weeks for elite hunt pass) and there's nothing worse in the item mall.
    Yep, we've reached the point of acceptance where if it doesn't suck too much we're OK with it.

    Of course we've all got different tolerance levels for P2W and what we are willing to spend.

    I've spent about $75 for the base FO76 game (2 accounts) and am on my 3rd month of the FO1st sub for one of them.

    Not so much to pay for well over 7 months of solid gaming, which is a lot since I play one, and only one game at a time.

    I make sure to get my money's worth.

    ;)



    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 17,651
    I might be wrong... but from what I recall everything in CF that you can buy, like Castles and whatever) can only be used in the private Eternal Kingdoms (basically private housing).  even the sub has had its benefits removed and we do not know what they will be.


    Kyleranultimateducktweedledumb99

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

  • AlleinAllein Member RarePosts: 2,139
    Quizzical said:
    So what do you think?  Is that "pay to win"?
    Does Dauntless have PVP or any sort of competitiveness to it? Never played it so no clue.

    If someone wants to basically skip through a game and use cheat codes or whatever in a solo or friendly co-op experience, oh well.

    I don't care if someone buys more lives in candy crush.

    However, if a game involves PVP, ranking and other sort of competitive features, paying for things is much different.

    I want to win because I'm better or at least put in the time to get the benefits that make me better then someone that just comes in and inputs a credit card number.
  • FrykkaFrykka Member UncommonPosts: 154


    Not gonna lie.. Hope I get a beta invite.



    Every Beta account gets in... just in waves. You must register before Beta starts though in March or April.
  • FrykkaFrykka Member UncommonPosts: 154

    Scot said:


    Scot said:





    I've seen a few people say that Crowfall is Pay2Win and I've never seen a sign that's for sure true, just ambiguity in the descriptions that makes it possible to use to get an advantage.




    Having read about buying resource nodes and guild halls it is going to start out very P2W.

    If I have that wrong do expand, you know I just skim threads on games not out yet. The "you can always grind it" argument will depend very much on how long it takes to grind.



    There are now higher resource nodes in the safe noob world. Your EK only has basic resources and is never for much more than getting knotwood (Rank 0) for siege engines, dust, embers, and grit. Even this may change though.

    The game will not have any PtW items... kickstarter people get fancy housing, early persistent rewards that give a tiny single stat boost will be able to be crafted in world.

    There is a ton of mis-information and trolls like Wizardry who has nothing to contribute but bad info.

    Join the game for Beta and you'll either love it or not.

    tweedledumb99
  • tweedledumb99tweedledumb99 Member UncommonPosts: 290
    Frykka said:

    Scot said:


    Scot said:





    I've seen a few people say that Crowfall is Pay2Win and I've never seen a sign that's for sure true, just ambiguity in the descriptions that makes it possible to use to get an advantage.




    Having read about buying resource nodes and guild halls it is going to start out very P2W.

    If I have that wrong do expand, you know I just skim threads on games not out yet. The "you can always grind it" argument will depend very much on how long it takes to grind.



    There are now higher resource nodes in the safe noob world. Your EK only has basic resources and is never for much more than getting knotwood (Rank 0) for siege engines, dust, embers, and grit. Even this may change though.

    The game will not have any PtW items... kickstarter people get fancy housing, early persistent rewards that give a tiny single stat boost will be able to be crafted in world.

    There is a ton of mis-information and trolls like Wizardry who has nothing to contribute but bad info.

    Join the game for Beta and you'll either love it or not.

    Anytime there's a comment from Wizardry in a thread about a pvp-including game, I skip 100% of his comments.
    Frykka
  • FrykkaFrykka Member UncommonPosts: 154


    Not gonna lie.. Hope I get a beta invite.



    Everyone who registers gets a Beta invite but they will be sent in waves according to when you registered @Crowfall.com
  • FrykkaFrykka Member UncommonPosts: 154


    Game needs drastic improvements. As a backer so many things about the game are off(granted it is alpha) from combat being zerg v zerg with CC spamming and over the top bloom effects to nothing at all to do in game. The mobs as least seem more responsive then past versions though. I decided to retry it last night it there is some improvement,but not enough for the time its been in alpha.

    Also there needs to be some persistence to the game world as others have stated. I don't want to do 3 months sessions and then have to restart everytime. That will lead to tons of player attrition.

    A huge sprawling main map that is affected by campaigns win/loses so we are actually contributing to something is needed. Specific items/gear both cosemetic and stats should be unlocked via campaigns ect.



    You export your character Vessel, your gear, your mats and anything else that you can although some worlds will have limited imports, limited exports, or both. Generally you will keep you Character and its single set of gear at minimum. this means you are never starting over unless you want to make a new build and you can still twink that new toon. Guilds generally have accounts that can assist or add to export amounts per account. You keep your passive skills of course because that is at the account level and you keep all of the progression of your characters going into the next campaign. I feel like the really competitive campaigns will be much longer that what we have been testing... like 4 months... one month of each season.
    Kyleran
  • FrykkaFrykka Member UncommonPosts: 154

    Rhoklaw said:

    I was laughed at by the fans of this game when I said it was P2W over a year ago. Doesn't matter though as I exited from this game back then and chose to support Pantheon instead. I'd love for Crowfall to succeed as well, but PvP focused games with cash shops tend to get a hard pass from me.



    There is no cash shop as in micropay... there are some personal Eternal Kingdom lego sets and lego bases that you cannot bring into the real world. All EK resources are Rank0... the real world resources go to Rank10 so there is no value to them. There is no P2W and the devs have pledged that... just like Shadowbane in many ways.
  • FrykkaFrykka Member UncommonPosts: 154
    edited February 2020


    Game needs drastic improvements. As a backer so many things about the game are off(granted it is alpha) from combat being zerg v zerg with CC spamming and over the top bloom effects to nothing at all to do in game. The mobs as least seem more responsive then past versions though. I decided to retry it last night it there is some improvement,but not enough for the time its been in alpha.

    Also there needs to be some persistence to the game world as others have stated. I don't want to do 3 months sessions and then have to restart everytime. That will lead to tons of player attrition.

    A huge sprawling main map that is affected by campaigns win/loses so we are actually contributing to something is needed. Specific items/gear both cosemetic and stats should be unlocked via campaigns ect.



    Again, you keep your toons progression and gear every campaign... some will limit exports and imports to either make you start from scratch ONLY inside that campaign, your vessels are account wide stored once exported (like for new players) or let you bring tons of stuff into the world to get to the meat of the campaign faster (for experienced players). But do realize you are wrong about progression being wiped...
  • FrykkaFrykka Member UncommonPosts: 154
    edited February 2020

    Lukzfresh said:

    You can just buy into beta of course :). Because that is the thing now in days. I bought in 2 yearsish ago... I don’t buy into games anymore. It’s just a terrible idea and normally they fail.



    Beta is free if you register an account BEFORE it starts... like before April 2020. You'll have to buy the game to play at launch for $50.

    Rhoklaw said:

    I was laughed at by the fans of this game when I said it was P2W over a year ago. Doesn't matter though as I exited from this game back then and chose to support Pantheon instead. I'd love for Crowfall to succeed as well, but PvP focused games with cash shops tend to get a hard pass from me.



    From the Store which is mostly game bundles and housing Lego kits and a horse skin

    "This is the basic Crowfall Crowns package. Use Crowfall Crowns to purchase cosmetic items in our store. Note that buildings, parcels and decorative items may only be used in the Eternal Kingdoms. All items purchasable for Crowns can be found or created within the game world of Crowfall."
    Post edited by Frykka on
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