but he will not give the money back, sooo his words are empty and just a way to try and safe face without doing anything to solve, he showing what he was being doing on the game is not really doing more what he already had done
My brain just had an aneurysm attempting to read this...
Why do people that spend money on a kickstarter or any form of crowdfunding always expect to get their money back when things don't go as they think it should. Do you go to a casino, lose all your money gambling, and then cry for your money back because it did not go as you planned? No you don't...
Spending money on a kickstarter is essentially gambling your money on a product that may never come to light or may not end up as you had hoped. Deal with it, move on, and maybe learn not to spend money on a kickstarter unless you are prepared to completely forget about ever having that money in the first place.
Or, get your refund. Might as well not be stupid with your money twice.
Everyone is just lucky he's opted to allow for refunds, Kickstarters don't HAVE to give refunds. If projects fail, they don't have to give the money back, though some of them do.
I feel like Mark is in a no win situation here. He did something that made the community mad. He might not have understood it at the time, but he understands it now. He realizes the knee jerk reaction he made to the backlash didn't go over well, and now he's trying to make things right as best he can.
But obviously we're going to have people with no skin in the game attacking whatever he does, and cynics that may have invested that won't be appeased by an apology, so I'm not sure what Mark can do.
I think it wasn't handled well, but I feel for the guy.
He's in a no win situation because he has failed to deliver a product in a timely manner. There have been misrepresentations (some knowable lies) for the last 7-8 years. Apologies don't actually mean anything. It's damage control. It's one more manipulation meant to calm the nerves of a group of people that should be upset about the news.
In fact, while he was "not handling it well," I believe that was the real him speaking plainly and being himself. A lot of people on these boards were saying they respected him for that. Now he comes up with a well thought out, written "honest" apology. But what is the apology even for? Not talking about CU enough? Is it for acting badly on forums? I don't care about either of those things.
He developed an entire different game with the funds that the backers paid him that is coming out before the game that was promised years ago (an now may never come out). He should be apologizing for that. Where is that apology?
He has said multiple times that he did not use any funds from cu to make the new game, and that all the funds from the new game have come directly out of his own pocket.
Why would you believe him when he says anything? I really don't get this. He kept the second game secret from everyone. How much money was spent on the engine or the assets before he got outside funding? You think there was a completely separate, clean pool of money and assets/code was never mixed?
It's just so unbelievable that anyone would believe such obvious bullshit.
I haven’t bought into cu or any other crowd funded mmo. That being said, he is offering refunds. What reason does he have to lie about the money coming out of his own pocket? You really do sound like you are having a hard time with this.
I know that his sister was an investor. I know that money came out of his own pocket. I also know that he accepted millions in backer money. And I also know that he is still offering refunds.
None of this has to do with their relatively small dev team making a completely separate game while CU has been in development hell (no wonder it's taking so long). He kept this other game secret. You wonder why? Because it's a really messed up thing to do to those that backed CU and they knew it.
And as I said before, might as well not be stupid with your money twice and get your refund.
The more this develops, the less I understand the venom/hyperbole. I'm sure I'm leaving things out, but here are the highlights to me:
Mark indicated the game was investor driven, 'low effort', and would be given to all CU backers. Mark is not asking for more money from current backers. Mark has offered refunds, with some limitation, to backers who were upset with the news
While it may not be what everyone wanted right now, I couldn't really label his actions as scummy or outright dishonest. He seemed legitimately surprised at the backlash and, to me, that would fit if the game was truly low effort to produce and something he viewed as purely a 'value add' for backers (or win/win for studio and backers alike).
As far as missteps go, I feel like CSE/mark has been making the effort to rectify things as much as they can. As with anything, time will be the ultimate judge, but for right now, people have likely picked their sides and dug in, so I guess we'll see where things go.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers. Do something wrong, no one forgets" -from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
The more this develops, the less I understand the venom/hyperbole. I'm sure I'm leaving things out, but here are the highlights to me:
Mark indicated the game was investor driven, 'low effort', and would be given to all CU backers. Mark is not asking for more money from current backers. Mark has offered refunds, with some limitation, to backers who were upset with the news
While it may not be what everyone wanted right now, I couldn't really label his actions as scummy or outright dishonest. He seemed legitimately surprised at the backlash and, to me, that would fit if the game was truly low effort to produce and something he viewed as purely a 'value add' for backers (or win/win for studio and backers alike).
As far as missteps go, I feel like CSE/mark has been making the effort to rectify things as much as they can. As with anything, time will be the ultimate judge, but for right now, people have likely picked their sides and dug in, so I guess we'll see where things go.
While his intentions may have been good, with a number of studios that already did something like this and it not working out...well fans are right to have big concerns.
I start to feel like crowd funding sites need to be some type of restriction on this crap, but what can they really do? It's out of anyone's hands and these companies make a business out of development for a game that never releases....
How people sit there and say people are crazy for calling him out is beyond me. Or that this is seemingly some how ok to do. If they didn't have the studio, the machines, the man power, etc it is all at a cost and is not free. The 'man hours' alone to work on a side project. People really have no clue how things work in business or the real world.
This sounds like a statement well vetted through people with customer-facing experience. Too bad the reveal of FS:R did not receive the same treatment.
Having been through more than a couple of 'meetings to schedule a meeting' things in my career, this gave me that same waste-of-time impression. Why announce that you will give some answers next week when you could simply provide those answers now? Does it really take a major public relations failure in order to prompt developers into demonstrating the state of their game? If that's the case, I'd think we should know more about several other games than we actually do.
It was good for what it was, but it seemed more a deflection to buy time to come up with a better answer than an actual apology. Maybe that's just my bias against "scheduled procrastination" speaking.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Umm, he pretty much came out and said that the funds he received were from outside funding sources and not backer money. I mean lets be honest the 2 million of backer money was gone YEARS ago. All the funding over the past years has been from outside investment.
Jesus, that's even worse. He blew all the backer money on the engine, never finished the game, and then used investor money to make a different game. Scummy.
Blew all the backer money? It's called paying employee's for work that they have done. So it's behind schedule. Welcome to modern PC game development.
Umm, he pretty much came out and said that the funds he received were from outside funding sources and not backer money. I mean lets be honest the 2 million of backer money was gone YEARS ago. All the funding over the past years has been from outside investment.
Jesus, that's even worse. He blew all the backer money on the engine, never finished the game, and then used investor money to make a different game. Scummy.
Blew all the backer money? It's called paying employee's for work that they have done. So it's behind schedule. Welcome to modern PC game development.
I said they blew it on the engine and made another game with it. Did you think I didn't think he was paying employees?
And behind schedule is an understatement (5 years behind schedule?), and also besides the point. Their team is literally working on a different game. Scummy.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
While his intentions may have been good, with a number of studios that already did something like this and it not working out...well fans are right to have big concerns.
I never suggested there was no room for concern. I stated I didn't get the venom/hyperbole being generated.
There's a bit of a gap between expressing concern and framing someone as scummy/con-man/etc. Otherwise, I certainly recognize the perceived similarities to other projects which was why I tried to highlight what I saw that makes this situation a bit different (free game, available refunds, not asking for more money/selling more).
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers. Do something wrong, no one forgets" -from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
Lol good old mark jacobs the con man of all con man and you people fall for him everytime just like the eq1 zealots fall for their guy.
Maybe the most comical part is the fact he says “I’ll take full responsibility” and you peasants are like “ oh he atleast owned it and said sorry so everything is fine here is more money mark”. Like duh who the else responsibility would it be Hahahaha no shit he is responsible for it he said the obvious.
A sucker is Born every day. keep in hoping for you few minutes of nostalgia to provide you some fantasy escape from life lol. This mark jucobs is the original snake oil salesman of lore that is for sure.
So no apology is acceptable, you need to see a video of him falling on his sword?
Naw, likely you would just bitch it didn't hurt enough.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Lol good old mark jacobs the con man of all con man and you people fall for him everytime just like the eq1 zealots fall for their guy.
Maybe the most comical part is the fact he says “I’ll take full responsibility” and you peasants are like “ oh he atleast owned it and said sorry so everything is fine here is more money mark”. Like duh who the else responsibility would it be Hahahaha no shit he is responsible for it he said the obvious.
A sucker is Born every day. keep in hoping for you few minutes of nostalgia to provide you some fantasy escape from life lol. This mark jucobs is the original snake oil salesman of lore that is for sure.
So no apology is acceptable, you need to see a video of him falling on his sword?
Naw, likely you would just bitch it didn't hurt enough.
Apologies are pretty useless though. Like, I don't care if someone apologizes for misleading me. I just want them to stop misleading me. And this guy has been misleading for the last 5 years.
He's not apologizing for diverting away from CU into another game. He's trying to spin it like it will make CU better if they work on, and finish, another game before CU is even close to releasing. On it's face it sounds stupid. Add to that the extreme delays and sordid history of the project and it just looks bad.
Backers don't even matter anymore. Obviously they will end up doing whatever they want. If they are securing funding through other means and currently making other games, the backers are a thing of the past. And CU is likely a thing of the past as well.
Umm, he pretty much came out and said that the funds he received were from outside funding sources and not backer money. I mean lets be honest the 2 million of backer money was gone YEARS ago. All the funding over the past years has been from outside investment.
Jesus, that's even worse. He blew all the backer money on the engine, never finished the game, and then used investor money to make a different game. Scummy.
Blew all the backer money? It's called paying employee's for work that they have done. So it's behind schedule. Welcome to modern PC game development.
Absolutely nothing "modern" about delivering software over 5 years late, actually setting the bar to a new low.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I never suggested there was no room for concern. I stated I didn't get the venom/hyperbole being generated.
There's a bit of a gap between expressing concern and framing someone as scummy/con-man/etc. Otherwise, I certainly recognize the perceived similarities to other projects which was why I tried to highlight what I saw that makes this situation a bit different (free game, available refunds, not asking for more money/selling more).
The venom, and Hyperbole that you perceive is because of several other crowdfunded games not delivering on their promises. Consumers are getting tired of the bait and switch developers like Mark Jacobs have been pulling since crowd funding games started. First these developers said they couldn't make the games they wanted to because of publisher pressures, now that they have no one to blame but themselves, it has been a hard pill to swallow for backers.
This should not be a case of gambling with your money, you are paying for a product ahead of time, and people aren't getting their products. There needs to be consumer protections to discourage this sort of behavior, or crowd funding just needs to stop altogether.
The least they can do is offer a refund, so I am glad he is at least doing that, but I don't think he should be applauded for it, nor do I think that he shouldn't be held accountable for his short comings on delivering the game he promised to make 7 years ago, but that's how low the bar has been set for standards by companies these days. Doing the bare minimum is now a special treat for consumers.
I won't disagree that protections would be welcome as there seemingly little accountability in crowd funded development. I dont neccessarily agree with the idea that you're pre-purchasing a product as crowd funding has always carried the risk of failure and therefore non-delivery. There are plenty of threads already about what people believe crowd funding is and isn't though...
That said, CSE lets (most) backers get a refund so again, this is a different situation then several other crowdfunded games. Otherwise, he has explained why things were done and has been streaming for some time this evening showing the progress of CU and explaining things further. You can chose to believe he is sincere or not. That's up to each viewer of course. From what I gather, he feels he is doing things in the best interest of CU and CSE and, delivery of info aside, I can't really fault him for it.
By all means, not asking anyone to applaud the guy. I just don't see justificaiton to "burn the witch" either. Just my opinion though. There are plenty of others to choose from.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers. Do something wrong, no one forgets" -from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
As a non-backer and long time DAoC player who was hopeful about CU coming out a long time ago this letter is at least some light in the end of a very, very dark tunnel but definitely not enough for me to even think about backing his project yet.
I hope he manages to fulfill his promise and I'd love to play something even if only resembles what I've experienced in the many 8 v X battles I've had in DAoC.
My record was killing this huge 130+ man zerg that kept coming while we defended a keep with only 8 people. Absolutely epic memories I have from more than a decade ago and I believe if anybody can pull something like that experience I had it would be him. Not with my money though because I've had too many disappointment with kickstarter and early access titles already.
Lol good old mark jacobs the con man of all con man and you people fall for him everytime just like the eq1 zealots fall for their guy.
Maybe the most comical part is the fact he says “I’ll take full responsibility” and you peasants are like “ oh he atleast owned it and said sorry so everything is fine here is more money mark”. Like duh who the else responsibility would it be Hahahaha no shit he is responsible for it he said the obvious.
A sucker is Born every day. keep in hoping for you few minutes of nostalgia to provide you some fantasy escape from life lol. This mark jucobs is the original snake oil salesman of lore that is for sure.
So no apology is acceptable, you need to see a video of him falling on his sword?
Naw, likely you would just bitch it didn't hurt enough.
Yeah apologies are like nothing not sure when this beta cuck mentality set in of letting people wash their hands of culpability because they toss out the word sorry but it’s pathetic. Hey I know I spent your life savings without permission but I’m sorry what else you want man I said sorry!
i guess you are good with being cheated on and being beat up everyday because you know they apologized afterwards I mean wtf you want?
how about sorry this was a terrible decision I am a man of my word and I made a commitment to my backers who has hung in there for 5 years. So we will put ragnarok on hold and finish our primary commitment to our customers.
that is how a fcking actual apology sounds it’s accompanied by actions to correct what you are apologizing for. That is your free lesson on how to be a real person of character for today. Your welcome.
I haven’t bought into cu or any other crowd funded mmo. That being said, he is offering refunds. What reason does he have to lie about the money coming out of his own pocket? You really do sound like you are having a hard time with this.
That's exactly the right question to ask.
1. The initial funding goal of 2mil had the "if we hit this mark then Mark will put 5 mil of his own money into CU". Why the emphasis on 2 mil though? if you have 5 mil in the bank and your sister(investor) waiting to put in another 7 mil why would you need 2 mil? My opinion/theory is that he had no money and no one would would back a 2mil total funding 3 faction RVR build server from scratch project cause anyone with a brain knows that's impossible. Now "say" you have another 5 mil to throw at it then it becomes a little more believable while all along all he probably wanted to do was get 2 mil to build the engine. 4-5 years down the line when the heat starts to turn up for you to produce say you have a new investor which only recently we all found out was his sister.
2. There's no way to prove any of his money was ever put into CSE from his personal accounts unless we see bank records and even then there's no way to see what those funds were being used for if he is CFO while also being CEO.
Think about where we were 7 years ago.. Obama was president, Weinstein was still making movies and Fortnite was still 3-4 years away from being released.. I have friends who've had TWO kids since 2013 and their oldest is already in elementary school.. After all that time what exactly of CU is there to show besides a pre-alpha tech demo and more words/promises? Nada.
He has said multiple times that he did not use any funds from cu to make the new game, and that all the funds from the new game have come directly out of his own pocket.
That's wordplay.
He said in the Rag announcement stream that Rag has been worked on for the past 4.5 months.
If the "funds" from CU were already depleted before then then obviously no funds from CU can/would have been used. The engine they created using CU backers funds IS being used though.
All you people reminding us that Jacobs offers refunds to players who are disillusioned with the game progress...have you actually MET anyone who received a refund? Because I requested mine months ago and nothing. SAYING you will refund people is not the same as actually doing it.
And while all you fanbois are correct, kickstarters don't HAVE to offer refunds, this one did. And while we all drop cash knowing it's likely gone forever, when a company performs so poorly to their original (and every subsequent) plan I can't imagine that somehow being a backer gives those people LESS right to be pissed off at being conned.
Like all their other commitments, I've personally yet to see any evidence of follow through on the refunds promise.
My bottom line: Jacobs is like another well known content creator, GRRM. They both build up for ages and then go limp when it's time to shoot their shot and finish a MF project. Jacobs will likely be in the grave before Unchained sees the light of day. I've played the alpha, several times over the years, and it's never been anything but an ugly disaster. Cake said it best, finish or go tf away, it won't be long before no one cares about your "participation trophy" anymore:
Currently Playing: WoW, POE, Valve Index, Outer Worlds, BL3
Excited for: Magic Legends, Diablo 4, New Bioshock Installment
Comments
None of this has to do with their relatively small dev team making a completely separate game while CU has been in development hell (no wonder it's taking so long). He kept this other game secret. You wonder why? Because it's a really messed up thing to do to those that backed CU and they knew it.
And as I said before, might as well not be stupid with your money twice and get your refund.
Mark indicated the game was investor driven, 'low effort', and would be given to all CU backers.
Mark is not asking for more money from current backers.
Mark has offered refunds, with some limitation, to backers who were upset with the news
While it may not be what everyone wanted right now, I couldn't really label his actions as scummy or outright dishonest. He seemed legitimately surprised at the backlash and, to me, that would fit if the game was truly low effort to produce and something he viewed as purely a 'value add' for backers (or win/win for studio and backers alike).
As far as missteps go, I feel like CSE/mark has been making the effort to rectify things as much as they can. As with anything, time will be the ultimate judge, but for right now, people have likely picked their sides and dug in, so I guess we'll see where things go.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Blew all the backer money? It's called paying employee's for work that they have done. So it's behind schedule. Welcome to modern PC game development.
And behind schedule is an understatement (5 years behind schedule?), and also besides the point. Their team is literally working on a different game. Scummy.
Weird.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
There's a bit of a gap between expressing concern and framing someone as scummy/con-man/etc. Otherwise, I certainly recognize the perceived similarities to other projects which was why I tried to highlight what I saw that makes this situation a bit different (free game, available refunds, not asking for more money/selling more).
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
Naw, likely you would just bitch it didn't hurt enough.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
He's not apologizing for diverting away from CU into another game. He's trying to spin it like it will make CU better if they work on, and finish, another game before CU is even close to releasing. On it's face it sounds stupid. Add to that the extreme delays and sordid history of the project and it just looks bad.
Backers don't even matter anymore. Obviously they will end up doing whatever they want. If they are securing funding through other means and currently making other games, the backers are a thing of the past. And CU is likely a thing of the past as well.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
That said, CSE lets (most) backers get a refund so again, this is a different situation then several other crowdfunded games. Otherwise, he has explained why things were done and has been streaming for some time this evening showing the progress of CU and explaining things further. You can chose to believe he is sincere or not. That's up to each viewer of course. From what I gather, he feels he is doing things in the best interest of CU and CSE and, delivery of info aside, I can't really fault him for it.
By all means, not asking anyone to applaud the guy. I just don't see justificaiton to "burn the witch" either. Just my opinion though. There are plenty of others to choose from.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
I hope he manages to fulfill his promise and I'd love to play something even if only resembles what I've experienced in the many 8 v X battles I've had in DAoC.
My record was killing this huge 130+ man zerg that kept coming while we defended a keep with only 8 people. Absolutely epic memories I have from more than a decade ago and I believe if anybody can pull something like that experience I had it would be him. Not with my money though because I've had too many disappointment with kickstarter and early access titles already.
That's just, like, my opinion, man.
i guess you are good with being cheated on and being beat up everyday because you know they apologized afterwards I mean wtf you want?
how about sorry this was a terrible decision I am a man of my word and I made a commitment to my backers who has hung in there for 5 years. So we will put ragnarok on hold and finish our primary commitment to our customers.
that is how a fcking actual apology sounds it’s accompanied by actions to correct what you are apologizing for. That is your free lesson on how to be a real person of character for today. Your welcome.
And while all you fanbois are correct, kickstarters don't HAVE to offer refunds, this one did. And while we all drop cash knowing it's likely gone forever, when a company performs so poorly to their original (and every subsequent) plan I can't imagine that somehow being a backer gives those people LESS right to be pissed off at being conned.
Like all their other commitments, I've personally yet to see any evidence of follow through on the refunds promise.
My bottom line: Jacobs is like another well known content creator, GRRM. They both build up for ages and then go limp when it's time to shoot their shot and finish a MF project. Jacobs will likely be in the grave before Unchained sees the light of day. I've played the alpha, several times over the years, and it's never been anything but an ugly disaster. Cake said it best, finish or go tf away, it won't be long before no one cares about your "participation trophy" anymore:
I wish it was under other circumstances.