Brute honesty… RPGs, all I care about it character building.

delete5230 · February 2020

I'm playing the Witcher 3 again. Great rpg, infact one of my best. Been at it for weeks. I'll admit I'm skipping most dialog for the long winded story and could tell its quality stuff if your into story.

Graphics are great, world is beautiful music is tops. I love the combat, the lock on target was crap and hated it at first but learned to love it. On max difficulty the boss fights are on par with Dark Souls and yes I'm saving and dying a lot. Doing the "contracts" seems to lead to the best boss fights, LOVE THEM.

So the question is… why am I getting board !!!!

I'm 3/4 way through I have most all ability slots filled. For the most part my character is built just how I like it. I don't need anymore tips and other player suggestions from Youtubes. I daydream of ideas to make myself be better and have more fun by changing things around...... I'm where I want to be....... All of a sudden it all stops, it's like I'm done.

This is why !!!!!

I'll continue playing because of the Dark Souls combat….. But this is how most rpg's go for me.

I wish I played RPG's for the roll-playing-part, but I don't.

How about you ?

Fallout 4 is just as good as a game, but character building ends faster, and Assisions Creed in not good at all. It's the deep reason I like a game or not... Now that I think about it.

ChildoftheShadows · February 2020

Like many of us you are a grinder. This is something old school mmos did exceptionally well.

Amaranthar · February 2020

I like building my character too, but that's not the only thing I like. Far from it.
There's a big difference between SP and MMO for me.
I want a lot more from MMORPGs. Character building is a SP experience and MMO experiences need to be much more about the world where all these players "live."

centkin · February 2020

Character building is definitely one of the primary things that I enjoy. This, expressed in narrow channel gear management and zone options, is why I tend to dislike the endgames of MMOs. It is a lot more fun while you are building the character up in major ways. This can actually include the totally lost art of roleplay.

cameltosis · February 2020

I will admit I've not gotten very far in Witcher 3, only made it about 15 hours in. I found it to be extremely light on the roleplaying front, in fact the only roleplaying I encountered in the game so far was the dialogue choices for some of the quests.

the rest of the game just seems to be a standard action/adventure. Geralt is not a role, it's a character. If you were able to develop him and create roles then that would mean that the combat would be part of the roleplaying too, but you can't (or maybe you can later, but so far he's just Geralt and always has access to the same set of skills).

I find that most modern "rpgs" seem to go the same sort of route - a strong focus on story, with some dialogue choices to make it an rpg, but beyond that it's just an action adventure game.

I play RPGs for the following:

Character/role development - I want to be able to build/develop my role within the game. Unlocking new skills is the most important thing for me, but unlocking gear that actually has an impact on gameplay is also important (e.g. getting gear sets with skill bonuses).
Playing my role in the world - once you've built a character/role, it is important that it has a purpose in the world and that the role has an effect on how the game plays out. My preference is definitely for combat in terms of seeing my role play out in the world, but most RPG combat is really shallow so I lose interest fairly quickly.

The witcher 3 fails on both my interests. There is very little character development (in terms of gameplay) so combat in hour 1 is pretty much identical to combat in hour 15. There is also very little opportunity to make any meaningful choices in the world. It's a story-focused game, so you are channelled from one place to the next, following a pre-set plan by the devs. I can't ever just ignore the story and decide to be a bounty-hunter, the game doesn't give you those options. I can't ever decide to focus on earning money so I can buy a house. In other words, I cannot decide what role Geralt will play in the game, it's 99% locked down.

AlBQuirky · February 2020

"The Journey" vs "The Destination."

Octagon7711 · February 2020

Was just going through my list of Steam games yesterday, deciding which one to replay, so many games... and that's just on Steam and not counting my daily regulars.

Amaranthar · February 2020

AlBQuirky said:

"The Journey" vs "The Destination."

That's very important.
But I need destinations (multiple) of choice. As Cameltosis just described in the post just before yours.

Amaranthar · February 2020

cameltosis said:

I will admit I've not gotten very far in Witcher 3, only made it about 15 hours in. I found it to be extremely light on the roleplaying front, in fact the only roleplaying I encountered in the game so far was the dialogue choices for some of the quests.

the rest of the game just seems to be a standard action/adventure. Geralt is not a role, it's a character. If you were able to develop him and create roles then that would mean that the combat would be part of the roleplaying too, but you can't (or maybe you can later, but so far he's just Geralt and always has access to the same set of skills).

I find that most modern "rpgs" seem to go the same sort of route - a strong focus on story, with some dialogue choices to make it an rpg, but beyond that it's just an action adventure game.

I play RPGs for the following:

Character/role development - I want to be able to build/develop my role within the game. Unlocking new skills is the most important thing for me, but unlocking gear that actually has an impact on gameplay is also important (e.g. getting gear sets with skill bonuses).
Playing my role in the world - once you've built a character/role, it is important that it has a purpose in the world and that the role has an effect on how the game plays out. My preference is definitely for combat in terms of seeing my role play out in the world, but most RPG combat is really shallow so I lose interest fairly quickly.

The witcher 3 fails on both my interests. There is very little character development (in terms of gameplay) so combat in hour 1 is pretty much identical to combat in hour 15. There is also very little opportunity to make any meaningful choices in the world. It's a story-focused game, so you are channelled from one place to the next, following a pre-set plan by the devs. I can't ever just ignore the story and decide to be a bounty-hunter, the game doesn't give you those options. I can't ever decide to focus on earning money so I can buy a house. In other words, I cannot decide what role Geralt will play in the game, it's 99% locked down.

What is a game WORLD, if you can't make many decisions on where you want to go? What you want to do?

cameltosis · February 2020

Amaranthar said:

AlBQuirky said:

"The Journey" vs "The Destination."

That's very important.
But I need destinations (multiple) of choice. As Cameltosis just described in the post just before yours.

Aye

Implementation of "the destination" is extremely important.

For some RPGs, the destination is simply the end of the game: you've worked through the story, progressed your character and now you're done. In such games, it's all about the journey because the destination sucks and there is nothing to do at the destination.

In other RPGs, the destination is the most important part of the game and is where there is the most things to do. These games are much like going on holiday: the journey is an important part of the holiday, but the destination is where all the good stuff happens.

The easiest way to decide which side a given RPG falls down on is to ask yourself: what is the point of the progression? Is it just a gating mechanism, in which case the progression is pointless and it's all about the journey? Or if the progression meaningful and leads you to more opportunities? In which case, the destination is more important because you actually get to use your progression for something proper.

rojoArcueid · February 2020

OP described how i started playing mmos. Grinding mobs for hours to level up and building a character so i can grind stronger enemies to level up more. I can't play games like that anymore, especially single player games.

The more arcade-like activities that don't involve story telling are enjoyable online with friends. However, for the rest of the game i feel there needs to be a reason for my actions in that world, and a well written story does that job well for me.

When the game has serious repercussions for your actions, like Mass Effect and Witcher 3, I have even more reason to pay close attention to the story.

Octagon7711 · February 2020

I really need an interesting story that gets to me, now-a-days. I agree that grinding so that you can do more grinding is pretty much over for me also. Exploration, good combat mechanics, interesting skills and classes, a great story are what I'm after now.

Mendel · February 2020

I'd like role playing games to focus more on the character's emotions and feelings rather than their gear or skills. The more interesting character can be lonely, cold, humorous, generous, or afraid, but no games really focuses on acting those kind of traits out. These all occur in your mind, and by not reacting to the character, these worlds feel small and lifeless.

Gear and skills are fun, but that shouldn't be all to a character. A character is more than the sum of their HPs, Mana, and End.

Myrdynn · February 2020

I am with you OP, its why I leveled my entire roster in Wizardry 1 to over level 500, nothing really changed, but I played for progression, I love alternative advancements, I hate hitting the cap and having nothing to do but gear grind to improve my character, even something like Paragon in D3

Aethaeryn · February 2020

delete5230 said:

I'm playing the Witcher 3 again. Great rpg, infact one of my best. Been at it for weeks. I'll admit I'm skipping most dialog for the long winded story and could tell its quality stuff if your into story.

Graphics are great, world is beautiful music is tops. I love the combat, the lock on target was crap and hated it at first but learned to love it. On max difficulty the boss fights are on par with Dark Souls and yes I'm saving and dying a lot. Doing the "contracts" seems to lead to the best boss fights, LOVE THEM.

So the question is… why am I getting board !!!!

I'm 3/4 way through I have most all ability slots filled. For the most part my character is built just how I like it. I don't need anymore tips and other player suggestions from Youtubes. I daydream of ideas to make myself be better and have more fun by changing things around...... I'm where I want to be....... All of a sudden it all stops, it's like I'm done.

This is why !!!!!

I'll continue playing because of the Dark Souls combat….. But this is how most rpg's go for me.

I wish I played RPG's for the roll-playing-part, but I don't.

How about you ?

Fallout 4 is just as good as a game, but character building ends faster, and Assisions Creed in not good at all. It's the deep reason I like a game or not... Now that I think about it.

You should be playing Table Top RPGs then. Pen and paper. you are always developing your character

Amaranthar · February 2020

Mendel said:

I'd like role playing games to focus more on the character's emotions and feelings rather than their gear or skills. The more interesting character can be lonely, cold, humorous, generous, or afraid, but no games really focuses on acting those kind of traits out. These all occur in your mind, and by not reacting to the character, these worlds feel small and lifeless.

Gear and skills are fun, but that shouldn't be all to a character. A character is more than the sum of their HPs, Mana, and End.

But how do you apply that to a game? The only way I can see is for NPCs to say things about them as they walk by. (Which I think would be great.)
"There's that man, the one in the green cloak and red hat. He's a dour one, that one!"
"Aye, he depresses me just lookin' at him."

Or...

"Oh my, that lass with the golden helm, she makes my day."
"Oh yes, she is such a bright one."

Got any ideas?
Most of that stuff is RP, and pretty much only in that player's mind, as most other players just ignore and forget it.

Amaranthar · February 2020

cameltosis said:

Amaranthar said:

AlBQuirky said:

"The Journey" vs "The Destination."

That's very important.
But I need destinations (multiple) of choice. As Cameltosis just described in the post just before yours.

Aye

Implementation of "the destination" is extremely important.

For some RPGs, the destination is simply the end of the game: you've worked through the story, progressed your character and now you're done. In such games, it's all about the journey because the destination sucks and there is nothing to do at the destination.

In other RPGs, the destination is the most important part of the game and is where there is the most things to do. These games are much like going on holiday: the journey is an important part of the holiday, but the destination is where all the good stuff happens.

The easiest way to decide which side a given RPG falls down on is to ask yourself: what is the point of the progression? Is it just a gating mechanism, in which case the progression is pointless and it's all about the journey? Or if the progression meaningful and leads you to more opportunities? In which case, the destination is more important because you actually get to use your progression for something proper.

I want both journey and destination of choice.
Journey can be had simply from an exciting or interesting design.
Destinations, based on player choices and personal goals, that takes a special game design.
A Sandbox with a very Worldly World.
I suppose it could be done in a Themepark game, but then the developers need to create each and every Destination. In a Sandbox, you create that Sandbox, and let players choose from that Sandbox. It's a much more open way to design it.

The work a Themepark would require for just one "destination" questline equally would create multiple choices of Destinations in a Sandbox design. And even then that destination in a well designed Sandbox can be part of a multiple destination plan to a greater goal.
The trick is to have a depth of knowledge, "having a clue", in order to design this.

Amathe · February 2020

It's kind of like saying you admit you don't really read Playboy for the articles. Most people succumb to the lure of greater and greater power - especially after playing mmorpgs.

delete5230 · February 2020

NOW I KNOW WHY I NEVER LIKED GUILDWARS 2... it all makes sense now !

The abilities attached to weapons made character building non existent (at least for me). The game was good but never liked it on a personal level.

However I do say I like mmorpgs for playing with other people. Each group calls for different mechanics..... at least to older ones.

Mendel · February 2020

Amaranthar said:

Mendel said:

I'd like role playing games to focus more on the character's emotions and feelings rather than their gear or skills. The more interesting character can be lonely, cold, humorous, generous, or afraid, but no games really focuses on acting those kind of traits out. These all occur in your mind, and by not reacting to the character, these worlds feel small and lifeless.

Gear and skills are fun, but that shouldn't be all to a character. A character is more than the sum of their HPs, Mana, and End.

But how do you apply that to a game? The only way I can see is for NPCs to say things about them as they walk by. (Which I think would be great.)
"There's that man, the one in the green cloak and red hat. He's a dour one, that one!"
"Aye, he depresses me just lookin' at him."

Or...

"Oh my, that lass with the golden helm, she makes my day."
"Oh yes, she is such a bright one."

Got any ideas?
Most of that stuff is RP, and pretty much only in that player's mind, as most other players just ignore and forget it.

The NPC reactions are pretty much along the ideas I had. Some traits, particularly Generous, could be worked directly into the trade interface.

I had a personality system in a pnp system I developed in the 90s, based on a similar system in the Pendragon (Chaosium, 1990) RP game. My system was composed of 14 pairs of traits. Things like Chaste..Lustful, Generous..Selfish, Honest..Deceitful, Valorous..Cowardly, etc. The idea was that how the character acted could influence these individual pairs. If a character acted Modest, their Modest..Proud trait would tilt towards the Modest end (at least, there would be a chance it would move in that direction).

The idea to tie this system into the world was to have the gods favor different traits, and give bonuses for those individuals that emphasized that trait. So it you wanted a bonus from a specific god, you need to act appropriately. And individual gods favored a specific set of 5 traits. For instance. the primary healing god, Kailo, favored Generous, Merciful, Indulgent, Cheerful and Forgiving. Invoking one of the miracles (powerful magics beyond the ability of human magicians) Kailo provides would be easier for those who exhibited these traits.

kjempff · February 2020

As @cameltosis said "Geralt is not a role, it's a character.". You are playing the story, not a character. That is how I feel modern mmos to a high degree - Even though technically I am playing a character, in reality I am playing the stories (Story driven).

For a single player game, I can enjoy a good story. To have the narrative and story play out from the perspective of the storyteller. I mean a single player rpg can be role based instead of story driven, but after the first mmorpgs came, playing a role in a single player rpg kinda feel extremely limited (except that mmorpgs are not longer that).
Anyways, in the case of the witcher, I kinda enjoy the series more than the game.

For a mmorpg, the stories get in the way of what that kind of game should be about; and tbh I don't really play modern mmorpgs because rather quickly I grow annoyed at being herded in a type of game that should not story-drive me. A few modern mmorpgs I am able to stomach because I just pretend they are single player rpg with a narrative (which they mostly are anyway); obviously this illusion is self imposed and will only last for so long.

MaGicBush · February 2020

I never really got into Witcher 3. I have tried a few times, but I get bored by 10 or so hours. As with others I enjoy my character progression, but I also enjoy a good story. I cant just play a game to grind anymore. I did that so much in MUD days and with games like Diablo. I have trouble with Witcher because your a set character, and I don't like the story(well never played any other Witcher games), and so I can't get into it. I've been finding ESO fun lately, as it has a lot of story and lore I like, and your constantly progressing your character. I'm hoping Cyberpunk will have more character progression, and draw me in more.

Wizardry · February 2020

This is the very reason i loved FFXI,the character building was second to none.Your not ever beating a sub class system,it would take a very intuitive person to think of a better design.Mixing and matching classes abilities,spells,weapons keeps the game always fresh and interesting.Then with that type of design it keeps noob zones full for a very long time,this is good because it allows players to find lot's of different types of people to group with.
The other aspect is the grouping,YOUR character and everything you attained over time it put to use with other players,hence a REAL online game.
I feel most people just don't get it,they play mmo's for all the wrong reasons.I feel most play mmo's to brag or showoff or LOOK AT ME .

I know why the Witcher series has been highly touted but imo it has been more so because the industry has put out so VERY few HQ games.I do enjoy a story and within a rpg i EXPECT that story to be embedded into the entire game and not just a few hours in the beginning.In FFXI the story was maintained at least until the expansions came in but even the first few of those kept the story alive.

I am not here to say FFXI is the be all end all,not even close.The reason i detest most mmo's is they have NOT done a better job of improving what FFXI started,matter of fact devs have managed to dilute rpg's into single minded ideas like pvp or ARPG combat or linear questing or racing to end game for end game loot,all superficial ideas.

Your character SHOULD be the most important aspect of the game,that is who you are using to role play a class or an adventurer or crafter,tradesman,whatever.

Wizardry · February 2020

The OP actually proves one of my points,when mentioning that he seems to really only enjoy Dark Souls type combat which so happens is a design i detest, i think that is bottom of the barrel type combat.If all your doing is playing a game for one single minded design idea,your missing out BIG time on all that a HQ game can offer.
I will choose this time to pick on DS games and anything similar.I feel that design is VERY single minded and focuses on that terrible weak combat.Since the game offers me NOTHING outside of that combat "which i can't stand"the game basically offers me nothing at all.

Unless it is player versus player in a setting that offers ALL aspects of combat i would not want to play twitch,move in and out,strafe constantly ,i want SMART thinking to rule out over all else.Timing an attack is not smart nor an intuitive design,it is a SIMPLE design that would take the designer about 2 minutes to design.

Simply script the boss to react within 2 pixels or 5 pixels and time it so there is a small short delay,making the player have to be near perfect on the timing.To me that is not winning me over ever and is not even remotely close to a good combat design.

delete5230 · February 2020

Wizardry said:

The OP actually proves one of my points,when mentioning that he seems to really only enjoy Dark Souls type combat which so happens is a design i detest, i think that is bottom of the barrel type combat.If all your doing is playing a game for one single minded design idea,your missing out BIG time on all that a HQ game can offer.
I will choose this time to pick on DS games and anything similar.I feel that design is VERY single minded and focuses on that terrible weak combat.Since the game offers me NOTHING outside of that combat "which i can't stand"the game basically offers me nothing at all.

Unless it is player versus player in a setting that offers ALL aspects of combat i would not want to play twitch,move in and out,strafe constantly ,i want SMART thinking to rule out over all else.Timing an attack is not smart nor an intuitive design,it is a SIMPLE design that would take the designer about 2 minutes to design.

Simply script the boss to react within 2 pixels or 5 pixels and time it so there is a small short delay,making the player have to be near perfect on the timing.To me that is not winning me over ever and is not even remotely close to a good combat design.

Dark Souls for the reason of of being hard theirfore tactical. I could say the same thing for mmorpg grouping. Every group has their own finger print and the player has to adapt to their surroundings.

Understand one style has nothing to do with the other but I like both just the same.

Amaranthar · February 2020

Mendel said:

Amaranthar said:

Mendel said:

I'd like role playing games to focus more on the character's emotions and feelings rather than their gear or skills. The more interesting character can be lonely, cold, humorous, generous, or afraid, but no games really focuses on acting those kind of traits out. These all occur in your mind, and by not reacting to the character, these worlds feel small and lifeless.

Gear and skills are fun, but that shouldn't be all to a character. A character is more than the sum of their HPs, Mana, and End.

But how do you apply that to a game? The only way I can see is for NPCs to say things about them as they walk by. (Which I think would be great.)
"There's that man, the one in the green cloak and red hat. He's a dour one, that one!"
"Aye, he depresses me just lookin' at him."

Or...

"Oh my, that lass with the golden helm, she makes my day."
"Oh yes, she is such a bright one."

Got any ideas?
Most of that stuff is RP, and pretty much only in that player's mind, as most other players just ignore and forget it.

The NPC reactions are pretty much along the ideas I had. Some traits, particularly Generous, could be worked directly into the trade interface.

I had a personality system in a pnp system I developed in the 90s, based on a similar system in the Pendragon (Chaosium, 1990) RP game. My system was composed of 14 pairs of traits. Things like Chaste..Lustful, Generous..Selfish, Honest..Deceitful, Valorous..Cowardly, etc. The idea was that how the character acted could influence these individual pairs. If a character acted Modest, their Modest..Proud trait would tilt towards the Modest end (at least, there would be a chance it would move in that direction).

The idea to tie this system into the world was to have the gods favor different traits, and give bonuses for those individuals that emphasized that trait. So it you wanted a bonus from a specific god, you need to act appropriately. And individual gods favored a specific set of 5 traits. For instance. the primary healing god, Kailo, favored Generous, Merciful, Indulgent, Cheerful and Forgiving. Invoking one of the miracles (powerful magics beyond the ability of human magicians) Kailo provides would be easier for those who exhibited these traits.

I like this idea. Very much.
My first thought was, why not also do this for guilds?
I'd love to see guilds be able to set a concept for themselves...
"Exploration Guild."
"Healers Guild."
"Ancient Language of the Wisps Guild."
"Lore of the Wastelands Guild."
"Enchanted Forest Guild."

You get the idea, I hope.
This would take the idea to different sorts of traits, but the deities of the game world could have far more interests than the personality traits you've mentioned.

So, while your concept would be primarily for individual character (as in traits), I can see it expanded to be a part of a guild's foundation too. Not just through like-minded players, but also in the coded workings as an extension.

This is just first thoughts. Like everything "sandboxy", the devil can get into the details.

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Brute honesty… RPGs, all I care about it character building.

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"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey

"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey

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Brute honesty… RPGs, all I care about it character building.

Comments

"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey

"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey