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OPINION: Should MMOs Scale To A Player's Level, Or Gate Content For Progression?

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  • ShadusShadus Member UncommonPosts: 669
    edited February 2020
    Scaling every zone to the players level is frankly dog crap (scaling makes sense in a few situations and maybe in some specific mechanic type zones), but when used extensively it ruins any "heroic" feeling of the game and destroys any sense of accomplishment--

    "oh the orc took 10 hits to die when I was freshly awakened... now it takes 8 hits... after I've slayed gods who destroyed continents with a wave of their hand, ridden dragons, gained the flaming sword of gilgamesh, and the armor of the voidworm while walking the æther between worlds."

    Mmmkay. Bleh. Hatessss it.

    All that said, I think "mentoring" or "sidekicking" type systems are good for players over all.

    I also don't agree with gating content like FFXIV, but that's the debate between themepark games and sandbox games... not scaling vs non.

    The scaling in ESO made the game completely unfun and devoid of any sense of accomplishment for me.

    FFXIV's system of gating content was equally unfun after the first character... being railroaded and forced to repeat content isn't fun either (although somewhat mitigated by being able to do everything on one character.)

    I'm a fan of "go where you like if you can survive it" and sandbox style gameplay over themepark. In retrospect, kinda prefer skill systems over level based as well. ymmv.

    (I won't get into PVP, because frankly, it's completely ass in every way in every game out since M59. It's either so limited its no fun or it's so wide scale that immersion and fun falls apart for anyone who isn't a full time griefer... I enjoy pvp in games designed around it, there are no mmo that qualify... and I've played hundreds since legends of kesmai and m59.)
    Post edited by Shadus on
    Tuor7

    Shadus

  • GruugGruug Member RarePosts: 1,794
    I have always felt that content should scale WITH the player and not the other way around. In fact, I have suggested that content scales to not only the level of a player but also to the size of any group (or lack thereof). Players should be able to go anywhere and hit up the content in a challenging way at the level they have attained.

    Let's party like it is 1863!

  • TalemireTalemire Member UncommonPosts: 842
    No, never.
    Love the sinner, hate the sin.
  • NarugNarug Member UncommonPosts: 756
    Level scale, gating I just think its all just min-max jargon and misses the point.

    It seems like gamers who want freedom in their games are under threat nowadays.

    It should be exploration, character development, story development, (shouldn't these be in roleplaying?) and content as kings.

    (I will say killing player content input like a foundry isn't the answer)

    How to fix it I'm not sure but I'm just recognizing it up or down not left or right.

    AC2 Player RIP Final Death Jan 31st 2017

    Refugee of Auberean

    Refugee of Dereth

  • RidelynnRidelynn Member EpicPosts: 7,383
    I'm of the Everquest generation, and I very vividly remember the run from Freeport to Qeynos. I remember factions mattering significantly. And I remember dying... a lot... and running around naked to get my stuff back, and losing levels, and all of those bad things.

    There was nothing gating you, and there was certainly no levelization going on. But there were definitely areas that were dangerous to you, and they were not hidden away - in fact, you were almost required to brave them and experience them as an underleveled adventurer, get your butt kicked a time or two, and then you really appreciated as your character did finally gain enough power to start pushing back into some of those areas.

    Note, that I don't necessarily say that I remember them fondly, I just remember them vividly. I do appreciate that it gave the world a lot more character and personality, and it made me appreciate my character a lot more, especially as it leveled and geared up through the game. I don't want to give the impression that I'm just looking back through rose-colored glasses; there were a lot of frustrating nights where I swore a lot and threw things, and I don't think that exact style of gaming works today like it did 20 years ago. There were a lot of negatives, but it wasn't all negative, and I don't think the premise of the article, presenting these two as the only choices in a binary manner, is the only option either.
    Ungoodjimmywolf
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,534
    Gonna be honest, GW2 was the first game I played with level scaling, and the only game where it remotely mattered as far as my game went. With that said, I kinda like how GW2 did it, where, while you were Scaled Down, you were still very powerful, at least, far more powerful than someone doing the zone at level, in level appropriate gear. 

    So you feel "powerful", and it's very noticeable that you are destroying these mobs far better then you would level appropriate mobs, but you can still play with your friends, and not feel totally out of place.

    So for me, while I am for Gated Content going Up, I am also for Scaling Going Down.

    Not sure if that makes sense, but for me, I kinda like the idea that I can go wander around Shiverpeaks, and run with the new players and not feel like I am just Kill Stealing everything from them, we can take part in the same DE's, and World Bosses, and I can be there with them, not like some Grayed Haired onlooker, watching the baby kittens play.

    Not sure if that makes sense at all.. but.. just my feels.
    Kyleran
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • AkulasAkulas Member RarePosts: 3,029
    Go wherever you want if you're powerful enough to go there. There needs to be some risk in PvE. Pats, named mobs etc.

    This isn't a signature, you just think it is.

  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 8,178
    edited February 2020
    I don't like scaling. I thought I would until I experienced it. It made the content that would've been interesting boring instead.

  • PhaenPhaen Member UncommonPosts: 55
    I think scaling up old content to your current level could have merit. It would keep the entire game relevant and could allow you to get higher level version of nice items. It could become a bit overwhelming at times but could be offered as a server option maybe.
    higher level content shouldn't scale down as its nice to work toward something by gaining power, although blatant level grinding with no real goal is a bad mechanic.
  • CryomatrixCryomatrix Member EpicPosts: 3,223
    I guess it depends on what you play for:

    1) If you play for progression, a challenge, or immersion --> scaling is bad
    2) if you play to explore or you have tons of friends to play with ---> scaling is good. 

    I love exploring in games, but I prefer the danger and challenge in addition to it. 



    Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix
    You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations. 
  • bloobersbloobers Member UncommonPosts: 23
    Let me bring in my standpoint of viewing and I would like to start with year 1999.

    Everquest:
    Heavy focus on holy trinity / grouping. Exploration meant adventure, gear was proof of success, determination and socialisation with the community /guild. It was your responsibilty, if your char name became famous or seen as an idiot. This had mostly also an impact when /LFGing.

    Quests you had to find yourself, maps where not really implemented. You had to find all by yourself, or by asking politely other players

    My experience:
    Finding a group was sometimes hard, content was tough. Immersion was high, I felt my heart pumping when I was passing through a high level zone to get to that certain spot, or when someone /OOCed TRAIN, TRAIN.


    In 2003 I started playing WoW, and Blizzards AAA MMORPG became standard measure for all other MMORPGs. They have listened to the community, demanding more and more easy content.

    But what happened exactly and where has it brought up until today?
    Quests: Are are lead like on autopilot
    Content: Close all of it is now soloable, no need to group
    Grouping: You dont have to bother anymore, the system will roll a group for you
    community: You can be lucky, if someone greets you at all. Mostly poisened and rude

    For me, the current MMORPGs are dead meet. They all are the same in different colours and themes, everything is presented on a silver plare.

    This article was about scaling. No, I dont like scaling at all. I also dont like Tanks, that are healer/cannon at the same time playing.

    It took everything away from me and this is way, when you explore, you dont even pick up dropped gear anymore. It became obsolete, everything became obsolete. Grouping, chating, looting, exploration, puzzling, hospitality and mostly also friendship.

    I am waiting for "Pantheon of the Fallen" Just my thoughts
  • AdamantineAdamantine Member RarePosts: 5,094
    YIKES !!!!!!!!!!!!

    This is a typical "So do you want to die by Pest or by Cholera ?" thread.

    Only two truely awful options given. I dont want either, thank you very much.

    A MMORPG is supposed to be a huge gameworld you can travel that looks the same for everybody.

    Players should NOT be protected from their own stupidity. If players want to go to areas which are too high for their level, let them. Heck, put single highlevel mobs in lowlevel areas so players stay on their toes in those areas, too.

    Even worse, no I dont want a game in which all opponents always have my level. Thats just completely absurd. Then why have levels in the first place.

  • PalaPala Member UncommonPosts: 360
    Scaling is boring, I like having areas where I can feel the effects of my progression and areas which are still a challenge.
  • HiromantHiromant Member UncommonPosts: 99
    I think WoW does it right with its limited scaling. It allows for some freedom but not complete anarchy.
  • CynehildCynehild Member UncommonPosts: 102
    Please no level scaling!
  • MargraveMargrave Member RarePosts: 1,371
    Scaling is bad.... mmmkay.
    [Deleted User]
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 44,060
    edited February 2020
    Ungood said:
    Gonna be honest, GW2 was the first game I played with level scaling, and the only game where it remotely mattered as far as my game went. With that said, I kinda like how GW2 did it, where, while you were Scaled Down, you were still very powerful, at least, far more powerful than someone doing the zone at level, in level appropriate gear. 

    So you feel "powerful", and it's very noticeable that you are destroying these mobs far better then you would level appropriate mobs, but you can still play with your friends, and not feel totally out of place.

    So for me, while I am for Gated Content going Up, I am also for Scaling Going Down.

    Not sure if that makes sense, but for me, I kinda like the idea that I can go wander around Shiverpeaks, and run with the new players and not feel like I am just Kill Stealing everything from them, we can take part in the same DE's, and World Bosses, and I can be there with them, not like some Grayed Haired onlooker, watching the baby kittens play.

    Not sure if that makes sense at all.. but.. just my feels.
    I see your point. During my short time in GW2 I found it a hindrance as lI didn't group and was only going back to lower level content to farm mats or complete dailies, so it just was needlessly slowing me down.

    I quite very quickly, level 20s or so, as I wasn't enjoying the combat style of whatever melee 'class' I had chosen (was all very non trinity back at launch) and the daily quests drove a completionist like me wild with anxiety, as I felt pressured to complete them rather than pursue my own agenda. (As they really did provide very good rewards which a progression junkie just has to pursue. )

    In fact, because of GW2 I try to avoid playing games with daily quests, or pay little attention to them if possible which is what I do in FO76. (Where the rewards actually suck, 10 atoms per quest, and half the time I complete several just by doing my usual routine.)
    Ungood

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

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  • azarhalazarhal Member RarePosts: 1,402
    I prefer downscaling, as upscaling has a certain level of progression that is lost.


    Saying that, both are just band-aids on the level progression by zone design clashing with exploration and none-linearity of an open worlds design. The way MMO(and some single player)RPGs have evolved in term of zone design is just awful. It leads to player segregation, strictly linear progression and zones dying overtime.

    All that because some people came to believe RPG progression meant going from point A to point B and gaining X level in between.

    Some developers decided to fix the linearity issue by adding a "downscaling/upscaling/level lock" system instead of actually fixing the core issue: doing away with fixed zone level range.

    Gameworld should be organic instead of going for set of boxes with numbers glued together and telling players to move from box 1 to box 2 once they reach level X. A zone should have low and high level content. Not in an equal fashion, as place closer to starter area should have more low level stuff and stuff farther away more higher level stuff, but enough to entice players to explore the gameworld and comeback to already visited zone without feeling like they the game is just trying to pad time. Players shouldn't be punished for dealing with creature 5 levels higher or lower content.

    I also think MMORPGs focus way too much on power creeping.
    deniter
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,534
    Kyleran said:
    Ungood said:
    Gonna be honest, GW2 was the first game I played with level scaling, and the only game where it remotely mattered as far as my game went. With that said, I kinda like how GW2 did it, where, while you were Scaled Down, you were still very powerful, at least, far more powerful than someone doing the zone at level, in level appropriate gear. 

    So you feel "powerful", and it's very noticeable that you are destroying these mobs far better then you would level appropriate mobs, but you can still play with your friends, and not feel totally out of place.

    So for me, while I am for Gated Content going Up, I am also for Scaling Going Down.

    Not sure if that makes sense, but for me, I kinda like the idea that I can go wander around Shiverpeaks, and run with the new players and not feel like I am just Kill Stealing everything from them, we can take part in the same DE's, and World Bosses, and I can be there with them, not like some Grayed Haired onlooker, watching the baby kittens play.

    Not sure if that makes sense at all.. but.. just my feels.
    I see your point. During my short time in GW2 I found it a hindrance as lI didn't group and was only going back to lower level content to farm mats or complete dailies, so it just was needlessly slowing me down.

    I quite very quickly, level 20s or so, as I wasn't enjoying the combat style of whatever melee 'class' I had chosen (was all very non trinity back at launch) and the daily quests drove a completionist like me wild with anxiety, as I felt pressured to complete them rather than pursue my own agenda. (As they really did provide very good rewards which a progression junkie just has to pursue. )

    In fact, because of GW2 I try to avoid playing games with daily quests, or pay little attention to them if possible which is what I do in FO76. (Where the rewards actually suck, 10 atoms per quest, and half the time I complete several just by doing my usual routine.)
    I know what you mean about the dailies, I used to do them all, just for the chest rewards. But you only needed 3 to get the Big Daily Reward.

    Anyway, and you might get this.

    MAW event in Shiverpeaks, I would go back and do that every day, and then screw around and do the other surrounding events, since I was there anyway. It was kinda cool, that I could help out some level 10 player do a DE with them, as opposed to gap existing between us. I could go raise a fallen player, or help someone out, and not ruin their EXP or do a one hit-death blow the Main Boss stealing their fun.

    I think that is what made GW2 such a addictive game to me, was that I could play with anyone around me when I was doing Open World. It made the world feel open, I was not herded to the level 80 Only Zones, and expected to stay there.

    And I liked that. I liked that I could go anywhere and still be a part of whatever was going on.

    On the flip side, while Dungeons were leveled, like 46 for AC, honestly, unless it was story mode, there was nothing gained from taking people that level into the Dungeon. The players that commonly ran Explorer paths were all really level 80's, and I agree with their reasoning, you were always stronger down-leveled, than up leveled, so it was not a good investment to take an up-leveled, or even at level player.

    This became a larger thing with Fractals that would up-level the character, and that became a real problem with T2 fractals that had Agony, because you could only slot Agony into level 80 Ascended Gear, and as you can imagine, if you PUG'ed a lot of fractals invariably people below 80th, would join in T2 and Up, Fractal runs, and then get upset when you had to kick them, because there was no way they had the AR to survive.

    So it was like this soft gate, but it was annoying, and convoluted. While the idea of a gate through gear is not a bad idea, This is also why I like clear, defined, easy to grasp hard caps to instance content, and why I like things like flagging quests. It eliminates that whole problem where players feel entitled to do the harder/higher level content when they are woefully unprepared for it, and then have the audacity to impose this on other players.

    In that regard, as I said, I support gates going up, as that does give players a sense of progress, a sense that they are expanding as they level up.

    But I like the idea of scaling allowing players to return to lower level content and not be totally out of place there.

    In short, Scaling Down, allows your world to Grow, as each time you level up and add a new map, add a new dungeon, or instance, you are ADDING that to your game world, you are not moving to that map. Which is why so many MMO's end up feeling smaller at the players level up, as opposed to larger.

    Which was what I liked about GW2, the world grew as I grew, my game got larger the more leveled and explored.

    Just my feels on that.
    Kyleran
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 2,193
    I think scaling is one of the most stupid and irritatingly cheap things a developer has ever done. Think about it. What’s the point? Why scale something when you can design the game and character development with less of an increase of magnitude per level? You get stronger, but not so much that everything around you dies instantly. 

    This sounds more like careful planning in character development where “scaling” is cheap and lazy. 
    [Deleted User]deniterScorchien
  • BelgaraathBelgaraath Member UncommonPosts: 3,205

    Sovrath said:

    I want a world where there are mixes of different things in an area. Where a low level can wander into a place and realize he/she doesn't belong there.



    Where high levels go to starter areas because there is "high level content" there.



    I remember in Everquest 2 there was a sewer area in the starter city that had an additional part that was too high for low levels.



    It would be great if low levels could get a small raid going to attempt higher level content.



    gating a world is horrible. keeping everything at the same level for players is not my taste.



    Completely agree with this. It feels too often it is one of 3 choices, downscale, upscale or gated. It should be exactly what you wrote. Being able to go anywhere with a sense of danger everywhere you go depending on your level. Still awaiting this type of game in an MMORPG as I've only seen it in Single Player games. ESO could still do this a bit better than it does today.

    There Is Always Hope!

  • MaurgrimMaurgrim Member RarePosts: 1,331
    I like level scaling that means zones will never be empty and new players don't have problem finding people to play with.
    It's very much like old pen & paper RPG you have with friends, every campaign you are doing are basically level scaling, sure some encounters here and there are a bit lower than your party level, just for change of pace.

    I don't think ESO would have done so well as they are doing now if they sticked to locked zones and regions due to levels and faction.
    Kyleran
  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,857
    I don't understand the idea of level scaling if the world scales to the player's level, what's the point? If leveling is incorporated into your MMO, scaling is counter productive. If leveling is part of the journey, then no, level scaling is a ridiculous idea. I don't think it works well in GW2. It makes the idea of levels in that game less meaningful. It's not game breaking, I mean, I think ANET did a decent job with what it's supposed to do. But when most of the game play has nothing to do with your level, yet you have to grind out 80 of them...........
    [Deleted User]deniter
  • ArglebargleArglebargle Member EpicPosts: 3,481
    City of Heroes style sidekicking/scaling is my preference.  Allows disparate level players to group together.  Which is a big advantage. 

    I quit playing ESO the first time due to their horrible grouping mechanism, which made it difficult for even characters of the same level to group up for missions.  Much less when I got back and their was level disparity to boot.  
    Po_gg

    If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.

  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 9,004
    I don't understand the idea of level scaling if the world scales to the player's level, what's the point? If leveling is incorporated into your MMO, scaling is counter productive. If leveling is part of the journey, then no, level scaling is a ridiculous idea. I don't think it works well in GW2. It makes the idea of levels in that game less meaningful. It's not game breaking, I mean, I think ANET did a decent job with what it's supposed to do. But when most of the game play has nothing to do with your level, yet you have to grind out 80 of them...........
    I think the point is to grind for additional skills/abilities or complete additional DLC content to acquire additional skills.

    Not to mention added grinding of alts which I always do with games I really enjoy. Especially different interesting class stories.

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

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