Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
SO I am a "Conspiracy Theorist"?
Kilim
Member Posts: 546
Some of you that have bothered with this part of the MMORPG.com forum and the Official D&L Community may know me.
To those that do not, let me re-introduce myself.
I am a 30yr old prior US Marine and an avid gamer.
Started of with RPG to RTS to MUDs to MMORPG.
I have been tried out MANY MMORPG in its Closed/Open Beta state and its Retail versions.
D&L was one of the MMORPG that I was hoping to be a decent MMO until I acquired more info about it and experienced SoG personally as a previous Pioneer.
With that said.
I have made many a post to question about the company and its representatives that are making D&L.
One of the post I have made, that has now been locked and spammed in the official D&L forum, is List of Promises broken about SoG and other Facts!
http://mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/61766
I have just recently just made another thread questioning the quality of the latest E3 2006 screenshots that Farlan has shown publicly to the community called: Why are older D&L Screenshots look better than latest E3 '06 screenshots?
Now I have been labeled a "Conspiracy Theorist" by one of the head AD mods named Serpico.
As can be seen HERE.
I guess for the average gamer that is asking questions about the state of the game while providing links and quotes by the representatives of that company is considered a "Conspiracy Theorist".
I know some of you have been labeled the same way also for speaking your mind an keeping it open and not have tunnel vision or be led leg a sheep grazing in the pasture.
To those of you striving to know the truth in life, I applaud you.
You are giants among men.
Leaders of the pack.
Don't let the sheep grazing in the pastures turn you into a sheep yourself but be the strong shepherd leading the way.
Why I post this?
I guess I just had to vent a little.
It may not sound like it in how I post.
But I actually wanted this game to succeed.
That is why I have to question what is going on.
______________________________
My Sager 5760 Review
Comments
Amen.
Welcome into the intricacies of the vast World of Farlan, Kilim.
Pix
No, it's not only a flight sim
Current Work In Progress
I actually received a few emails and PM thanking me for hat I ahve done.
Actually the only reason why I even bother posting and reading about D&L still.
Of course some are hatemails that are expected.
Now I understand what a real honest journalist feels like lol.
In order to write whatever it is you want to show the public, you must do your homework 1st and take in whatever is thrown at you afterwards.
Sadly, many types of people are just sheep grazing the pasture and not willing to question what is given to them.
I think They are close to perma banning me again.
Kinda sad when I am just askign the same things that an average person would ask.
@_Pix_
Love the way you are handling the people that even dared attack you as well.
______________________________
My Sager 5760 Review
It seems that DnL mods are very unprofessional and abusive. There seem to be little or no quality control over them. Their responce only confirms what I was suspecting - DnL is nothing more then a game made out from a garage for a quick buck. There is no "real" company behind it, just several people. Because the golden rule in CSR world - NEVER, EVER, EVER....EVER directly blame, threaten or offend customers. You dont like their tone? they threaten you and curse you? say have a nice day and hang up. Never mouth to a customer or talk back. Seeing how they were talking back with al lthe "conspiracy" crap, it all looks to me that they were just trying to justify their actions to the public. Shame.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
The thread remained open for quite awhile even as some would term `bad
for buisness` so I hope this clearly shows to you that even topics or
questions, such as this, are allowable if followed within the rules. I
suggest you read them.
And then promptly closes the thread.
So, the moral is 'Too bad you have waited 3 years for our game ... it's not what we promised; it will probably be a buzzkill of biblical proportions, and you might as well commit Seppuku with a Frisbe for all we care" but don't say anything bad about us.
Kilim,
I've seen and read a number of your posts, both here and on the DnL forums. You've always seemed, to me anyways, a community member who was interested and hoped the best for the game but had serious concerns and reservations about Farlan and Co. Which, if I may add, you have more then enough reason to do so but that's just my oppinion.
I've never, to my recollection, seen you assume, stretch or not back up a statement without prior knowledge. Your posts are (usually) well spoken, thought out and reasnable.
The problem here is that your dealing with the complete opposite of just that. The entire DnL situation, including it's vast array of involved company (Farlan, NP, AQ, Crazed and blinded Fans) are involved in such an extreme situation that goes so far beyond the norm that any time someone try's to bring any sort of reason to the table, that person will naturally be made to be the bad guy. This is the position you are naturally setting yourself up for by taking the positions you have been within previously mentioned community.
In other words, within that circle of the community, they don't want reality right now. The development team doesn't want reality because they see the sinking ship and they know they can't stop it, the fans OF COURSE know whats going on, but they would rather close their eyes and hope for the best. What you are doing is forcing them to admit the truth if to no one else but themselves, and that's the last thing they want.
No it's not right, but that's whats happening. I wouldn't stress about it to much in the end, people that have even the slightest bit of common sense understand what your saying and it makes complete sense, I can't personally say I understand why you put so much effort into it, I myself just gave up on DnL when I saw they couldn't even bother talking to their community more then two years ago, but I certainly applaud your persistance at trying to add a little commond sense to the situation.
Important Information regarding Posting and You
You know it finally hit me (getting slow in my old age) that I have read about the methods being used by Farcelan/NP/Bugworld before.
Anyone remember who this psychological profile from the OSS is about?
His primary rules were: never allow the public to cool off; never admit a fault or wrong; never concede that there may be some good in your enemy; never leave room for alternatives; never accept blame; concentrate on one enemy at a time and blame him for everything that goes wrong; people will believe a big lie sooner than a little one; and if you repeat it frequently enough people will sooner or later believe it
Hint it is NOT Dr. Paul Joseph Goebbels
you guys need to read a history book
the big lie theory- Adolph Hitler
you want to know something else- it works
Anyway I would not sweat it too much Klim, looks like they are down to the drop dead date. Of course I said that at the April 30 release and the mods /fanbois realize they may( probably) will be out of a job real soon.
I miss DAoC
Kilim
Although i dont post much i felt a need to give you a hats off. I read that particular post of yours and some others from various people, and see a deep rift in the DnL community that sees many people right or wrong unable to see the truth of what has transpired so far. NP3 (Farlan or whoever they are) have lied to the community that is a Fact, it is hard to believe that people cannot see that, even when written in plain english.
(for the record i am a pioneer and i am still looking forward to DnL but i do not agree with the lies that have come from the developers and the mods, and i certainly dont agree to the unprofessional behaviour of members of the mod team.)
Keep up the good fight Kilim
$OE lies list
http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0
"
And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
Wow - once upon a time I was incredibly excited about D&L. I thought it was going to be the ultimate in mmorpgs. Conceptually the game seemed to be worlds ahead of anything else on offer. But since then, what looks to be eventually on offer is not so encouraging.
I was offline when SoG started up and missed out, but given the direction things were taking on the D&L forums and the feedback from SoG'ers I'm glad I missed out.
Fancy the Hitler quote being mistaken for a Bush philosophy :P
If you're presenting rational, fact based and supported arguments and asking questions like you have here (and since other D&L forum watchers have backed you up it seems you are) and D&L staff are responding like they are - PurpleHaze accusing you of a "spree of trolling" is a good one too - well...
So I read back through that entire thread - you ask that question, it doesn't seem to be answered, no matter how many times it's re-asked. And the responses from D&L staff - well, if you ask a question, not propose a theory, and they come back at you talking about conspiracy theories, they're the ones who have suggested a conspiracy.
The facts you've presented don't add up. The devs won't answer questions put to them. They start throwing the word "conspiracy" around. Mmmm...
I've worked in large organisations and for the government (not in the US). I even got to see one honest-to-god conspiracy play itself out involving a chemicals company buying its way around environmental laws. Fascinating to watch. I can tell you from personal experience that some degree of deceiving the public is par for the course in any organisation. A lot of it is genuinely harmless - some of it isn't.
It all comes down to point of view. The people doing these things don't question the morality of their actions. Ours is a competitive society. Organisations have goals to achieve. The "public" are a variable in achieving those goals. They treat the public accordingly. I'm somewhat ashamed to admit I've perpetrated some of those harmless lies myself.
For example, deadlines are frequently lied about, for administrative purposes. There's the deadline the public are given and then there's the real deadline which is usually a certain amount of time after that. But if you told the public the real deadline, then you'd have to deal with a greater number of "late" ones. By lieing, the public are effectively mostly turn things in "early" and the rush of people turning in things just a little bit late also end up being on time.
That's a mostly harmless example but demonstrates the principle - it's ok to lie to the public if it means they behave the way you want them to. There are... worse examples.
Let's face it, in 99% of cases it isn't illegal to lie. A great proportion of advertising is blatant lies. Politicians lie all the time. Deceit is a survival skill in our society.
Asking rational questions and keeping tabs on facts is not. It's just plain annoying. Stop it you paranoid freak :P
Personally, if I were you, I'd just not worry about it. Leave the D&L forums. Ask questions like you have. Allow them an opportunity to respond. They've responded in a manner which a) constitutes poor customer service and b) hints at real problems with the game. Move on.
The MMORPG market is very competitive. WoW is sucking up most of the market and there are other game companies struggling or going bust. At the end of the day D&L will succeed or fail based on the final product they supply. It definitively does not look like that will be original product they promised, and about which I and many others got excited a long, long time ago.
While the competition drives some companies to do silly things like call you a comspiracy theorist, it also drives other companies to deliver better games. As excited as I was about D&L when I first read about it, there are other games I'm more excited about now.
I won't be trashy and plug them in this post
Ok no idea if there's any extra history here (I haven't otherwise been on the D&L forums for over 6 months) but the point of the original poster, who does not appear to be a "militant (D&L) hater" was that he asked a very simple question - asking why the quality of older screenshots seemed to be better than recent ones - and besides not getting an answer, he copped being called a conspiracy theorist. Just for asking a question.
I notice a similar bent in your own reply. The self-glorification line was very imaginative. Well done there
I couldn't care less if you, or anyone else, give the game a go. It'd be great if current appearances are wrong and the development team actually deliver what was promised so long ago. I'd happily play that game. But I'm a little more conservative with my money and I'd need to see some impressive, unbiased reviews post-release before trying it.
The original poster, btw, isn't just pulling words out of the air and saying "believe me" - he's able to point to actual screenshots and quotes from the relevant parties. Um, so that last line of yours... does you no credit.
There we go, a coherent, measured response. Quirky, too. A little bit nasty, but I guess my post was too, so fair is fair.
I got nothing against the original poster. He seems like a moderate, reasonable fella. And I'm not excusing the fanboys at the DnL forums for their crappy attitude towards different opinions. I am pointing out that I've seen a similarly crappy attitude towards different opinions on these forums. I've seen somebody ask what the monthly charge is going to be for the game, and be bombarded with rants about how the game isn't worth paying for. I've seen somebody frequently expressing his enthusiam for the game, and get accused of working for Farlan. I've seen nearly every single post asking about game mechanics turn into a contest to see who can come up with the snidest jokes about the game, the developers, and the fans. So I don't think that DnL fanboys are the only "Nazis."
You're right, there is proof that Farlan is fishy. At least some of the "screenshots" are definitely phony. Their website is an unprofessional, sloppy labrynth of contradictions and vagueness. They seem incapable of providing any concrete information on how the game mechanics will work. I don't have much hope that the game is going to be fantastic. What I do hope for is that it will provide a world that players are responsible for shaping. If it delivers on half of its advertised features, I think I'll be happy. If not, if it sucks, I'll try something else. To me, it's worth gambling forty bucks.
This will be the third MMORPG I've ever tried. The first was text-based, and I played for 8 years. The second was WoW, and I played for three months. I hate WoW. Come to think of it, now that I'm done glorifying myself here, I think I'll head over to the WoW forums and post every single day complaining about what a piece of crap that game is.
And along with that, I wonder what odds Vegas is giving on whether DnL will release on May 30th or not.
I appreciate the new posters in this thread. Nice to see such even handed, resonable posts by, Turtlepower, thegowch, and jarger22. The old timers have a tendency to get in a rut now and then, so freash voices are appreciated.
And along with that, I wonder what odds Vegas is giving on whether DnL will release on May 30th or not.
I appreciate the new posters in this thread. Nice to see such even handed, resonable posts by, Turtlepower, thegowch, and jarger22. The old timers have a tendency to get in a rut now and then, so freash voices are appreciated.
Fresh voices that actually reply in a sound manner and not just attacking others is always better than the norm we have been used to here.
When I 1st heard of D&L and saw how Jackdog and others was stating about it, I took it with a grain of salt.
Only after I actually experienced SoG and acquired the info I received did I fully see the full picture of what others are doing in this community.
Fanbois attacking people that say anything criticizing their game even after facts have been shown.
It wouldn't be bad if they actually include valid details in their statements, but it is never the case.
Its always us being labeled "trolls/hateboys/etc" after we have included links, quotes and various facts in our criticism's.
The sad part is, we "actually" want to be proven wrong.
We are ALL gamers after all and what we all want is a good game to play.
Criticism is part of everyday life.
Many things that are improved and/or fixed in life is after it has been criticized.
Why not of instead of attacking others for what they have said one should just reply back with evidence to prove them wrong?
For those that have look deep enough in this issue, someone with any sort of common sense could easily see who are in the wrong.
______________________________
My Sager 5760 Review
And along with that, I wonder what odds Vegas is giving on whether DnL will release on May 30th or not.
I appreciate the new posters in this thread. Nice to see such even handed, resonable posts by, Turtlepower, thegowch, and jarger22. The old timers have a tendency to get in a rut now and then, so freash voices are appreciated.
Fresh voices that actually reply in a sound manner and not just attacking others is always better than the norm we have been used to here.
When I 1st heard of D&L and saw how Jackdog and others was stating about it, I took it with a grain of salt.
Only after I actually experienced SoG and acquired the info I received did I fully see the full picture of what others are doing in this community.
Fanbois attacking people that say anything criticizing their game even after facts have been shown.
It wouldn't be bad if they actually include valid details in their statements, but it is never the case.
Its always us being labeled "trolls/hateboys/etc" after we have included links, quotes and various facts in our criticism's.
The sad part is, we "actually" want to be proven wrong.
We are ALL gamers after all and what we all want is a good game to play.
Criticism is part of everyday life.
Many things that are improved and/or fixed in life is after it has been criticized.
Why not of instead of attacking others for what they have said one should just reply back with evidence to prove them wrong?
For those that have look deep enough in this issue, someone with any sort of common sense could easily see who are in the wrong.
So true and well said. The critics of the game are the only ones who want to discuss the game. The critics have been fans of the game much longer than the fanboys and will still be fans of the game when the fanboys leave to overhype their next dream game. But your right most of us would liek to be proven wrong. Your also right that its the fanboys who are the ones full of hate. Because they have nothing to argue they resort to name calling, threats and asking anyone who disagress with them to leave. WHats so ironic here is they call people who engage in discussion trolls when they do everything they can to advoid any discussion.
I have no prblem with someone thinking DnL is a great game but they cross the line when they start insulting others, calling critics names and telling other people to leave. I would just once like to see a fanboy try to make a reasonable logical argument as to why DnL is even average or midly below average. Unfortunately it hasn't been done and I doubt it can be done. Simply because there is nothing one can argue in DnL's defense.
What exactly does DnL have that the original Pong didn't have. A chat system and a dragon flight simulator. Its an unstable game of gimmicks but no substance. A terrible combat system that they admitted was bad and they promised they would redo by January which now won't be. No quests, no crafting, graphics outdated by 5 years, almost no npcs, no reason to pvp, no dungeons, no story, no sxp expereice, an awful UI, and no resources. The game has been in development now for almost 7 years. Beta testing started 3 years ago. The first release date was sheulded for 3.5 years ago. In all this time they have failed to make anything that even resembles a game. If they decide to add elements that are traditionally core parts of mmo gameplay for release they will most likely be buggy, untested and hastily thrown together. There are really two ways Farlan can approach the idea of introducing some content into the game. One would be just randomly throw as much as they can create with no quality control or testing into the game by release. We can guess how that will most likely turn out. Or they could work on one feature at a time. Given thier 6-7 year development and 3 year beta history it would be petty safe to say that putting in minimal content for this game will take many many years at their current pace. My guess is 5-10 years to just have something that resembles a limited content version of most game releases.
Its nice to repeat over and oiver DnL is great, DnL is great but that does not expalin how SoG can transform from the game concept it is into an actual game with even mininal contnt. Fanboys used to strongly grasp the fantasy idea that there was a miracle build waiting in hiding. It would strike down all the critics and rewards the fanboys for their love and blind faith worshipping. Slowly the fanboys have awoken from their sleep and most of them have abandonded the idea of a dream build and are starting to realize what everyone has told them for the last 6 months that SoG is DnL. Fourteen days to release and no one is able to explain how they can go from a game concept to a working game filled with actual content without rtesting and a signifigantly long development time.
Now the above arguments like most of the critics arguments is somewhat well reasoned and somewhat logical. Much of our arguments are requests to the fanboys to explain their vision and answer our questions. We would all like to see the ginat purple rabbits you see just explain to us how. But fanboys again treat such ideas as logic and reasoning as heresy. Asking them questions or writing arguments cause us to be called vulgar names, have our IQ questioned, be called trolls for doubting their vision and be told to leave these forums and is we are not worthy of their company.
Again I will ask the same thing you have asked many times before Kilm. Tell us how it can be done. Show us how to see the giant purple rabbit you say is sitting in your front lawn. Show us some reason the Rabbit exists and we will stop saying he doesn't. After all who would not want to see a giant purple rabbit or who wuld not want to see DnL do well.
Give it a rest Killim, your original post comes across as a 'look at me, look how hard done by I've been!' sorta post. Ironically enough, this is the first time I visited these forums for weeks and here we are with the same old posters still hanging on in a vain hope for this non-event PoS joke of a game. Why am I here now?....because I thought I'd check in to see if the company might have gone bust by now and hopefully put many people like you out of their self inflicted misery. Because it is self inflicted when you hold onto this vain hope for so long, after seeing all the evidence of their incompetence.
So my point is this....
If you don't know by now that Farlan is a complete joke and a sham of a company (and hence will never give you what you hoped for), then you never will. Living in the hope that they see reason is totally pointless.
Just let it go and move on champ...
It's an issue of emotional investment. The promise of D&L has been around for a few years now. When the publicity first started up, the game appeared to be the answer to many of our gaming dreams - a persistent online world with significant player-driven qualities; lands to be captured, politics, "meaningful" large-scale pvp etc. etc.
I was quite attached to the game myself. While playing a progression of other mmorpgs, the idea was always there that when D&L was released, I'd be moving over to it.
Then it wasn't released on time. Then they had the limited subscription for SoG. Then the feedback from SoG was... less than sparkling. Another delayed release. Then other problems became apparent.
I gave up on the dream. Well that one anyway :P I currently dream of a different mmorpg that promises many of the same things, but seems more likely to deliver on them.
But other players have possibly invested more in the D&L than I had - just look at how much activity there's been on the D&L forum over the years. Those who react with vitriol towards players like you are probably players who know your questions and criticisms are valid, but don't want to admit it to themselves for fear of losing their dream vision of D&L. And having invested so much emotionally into the game, they'll probably embrace even a very tarnished final version of that dream.
Self-delusion is a big part of human nature.
You're right, these kinds of questions and criticisms help to keep product quality where it should be, and quite often they bring to light problems that weren't apparent to developers who genuinely want their product to be as good as it can and who appreciate the feedback. But D&L seems to be a sinking ship. Every crack you point out is likely to send even more potential players jumping overboard, because the devs don't seem able to plug those cracks. That's all the fanboys see - you threatening something they're emotionally attached to, so they attack you.
One great thing I think that D&L has achieved is making developers aware of how popular certain game concepts are (eg. long-term playability and a highly player-driven world). Even if D&L doesn't deliver what was promised, I think the amount of attention the game concept has attracted from players has had a positive effect on the industry. Look at some of the newer games in development. There are several nearing completion that take some of the concepts D&L promised to introduce even further.
"Those who react with vitriol towards players like you are probably players who know your questions and criticisms are valid, but don't want to admit it to themselves for fear of losing their dream vision of D&L. And having invested so much emotionally into the game, they'll probably embrace even a very tarnished final version of that dream."
The only problem with that my friend is that so many of the anti-hateboys (or fawnbois if you prefer) have join dates within the last 7 months, while those of us calling the game into question go back for example in my case over 2 years.
The most vitrol, nasty, arrogant posters on the DnL boards in fact have join dates in the last 3 months. To me that only screams SHILL and FRAUD. I have never see such a blatant attempt to flood a board with posts made by people that are obviously either employed by or related to the the developers.
Of course that is to be expected with Farceland et al. Once a fraud always a fraud.