In addition to my earlier comments, I also believe it is important that the leadership feel pressure to deliver. Thus I would likely only back if they fell under at least 1 of 2 additional circumstances:
1. They have a full refund policy. yes this doesn't;t help if they suddenly close up shop, but if my spidey sense started to tingle I could always do it. Regardless of whether it's triggered or not (I never refunded CU) I think it's a rare method of accountability.
2. The leadership should not be taking a salary from the funds or if they do it should be minimal. This is to create forward momentum where the leadership is not rewarded for spinning their wheels. Otherwise, if you want me to fund your salary cut me into the equity side.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
When there are so many games that are actually finished that I could buy I see no point in spending money on something that isn't finished.
"there are so many games that are actually finished that"
made me say to myself "...that" i own and never played still.
Then i really wonder why the f i would want to dump $ in to nothing.
Those steam sales really worked on me for a bit there way way back, OH MAN a buck? SOLD!!! The whole game, all add-ons, all dlc, every expansions for $11.99 SOLD!!!
Grats on my epic list of games that i'll most likely never play. lol
A great option here for steam is just add it to your wish list instead of buying, then let fate take it from there, sale hits, and you're totally in the mood to play it, buy it, if not then don't. I've yet to buy one single game on my monsterley large wish list.
My faith is my shield! - Turalyon 2022
Your legend ends here and now! - (Battles Won Long Ago)
Never bothered with kickstarter before, and don't plan on changing.
Most kickstarters offer a list of items like Earlier Access, faster leveling, better mounts, and whatever else. These are the first steps to a developer to get a taste of P2W.
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.
"At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."
I am tempted to back CU, but honestly I'm a firm believer in only paying for what you get. Until the majority of the game has been implemented and I can get access, I'm not paying for it.
For the same reason, I basically never buy any early access games. The only one I did buy (that I can remember) is Prison Architect, but I only bought it after I'd seen that it was pretty much complete and I'd seen it playing on a friends PC.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
Yes, if I believe in a project and the people doing them. I'm not going to completely write off crowdfunding. Many people don't account for the fact that it takes many years to make a video game, and in order to get funded via crowdfunding you have to make your pitch. You don't normally hear about a game until it's been in development for years and the developers have a general idea of when their game will land, even when they don't have a specific date. With crowdfunding you're hearing about the game before it's entered it's primary production cycle, and at most you're looking at a prototype, if you're actually seeing anything at all. It seems like they will never be released because you're literally going to have to wait 2 or 3 times as long as you would for another game, the other thing is they're being developed by indie studios and/or start ups with small teams. They don't have the resources of the studios we're used to getting games from do.
There have been plenty of KS games that have come out and been really good, and seen success and many where the opposite is true. However the same goes for non KS/CF games, even by triple A studios that have been cancelled, or outright terrible. I don't regret for a single moment backing Ashes of Creation, as I know people working on it and they are extremely talented and very passionate developers, as well as gamers, which is a quality I tend to look for before I will back anything. I've also backed Crowfall, which I don't regret, and I've backed Book of Travels, which I am also excited for. I've backed single player games that I have absolutely loved, that have released and seen great success as well, such as Pillars of Eternity, and the Pathfinder games.
I never have and if I were to ever support a KS game project it certainly wouldn't be an mmorpg.
Never mind the fact that KS can and has been used with ill intentions as a get rich quick scheme, I just wouldn't have the patience to wait for something that I have taken the step of tying up some of my gaming money in for 7 years or more.
I HAVE bought several crowdfunded games after they released: Divinity OS 1 and 2, Pillars of Eternity, Wolcen, etc. but that's a different story. I had no stake in their development. They were just games that appealed to me and their method of funding development was irrelevant after they released.
IMO KS is just not suitable for games as complex and time consuming to develop as mmorpgs. I'm also very put-off by their incredibly over-optimistic projected release dates they all seem to have in common. If we as gamers knowledgeable about the mmorpg genre know that you can't develop and release an MMO in 2 or 3 years with a large, experienced team, I have zero respect for anyone who is panhandling for money to develop one that either doesn't know that or just plain lies about the estimate knowing that if they're honest about it they will get much less funding - there just would not be as many willing to pay for something coming in 7 years as they are about something allegedly coming in 2.
So, no... hard pass on crowdfunding MMOs.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
no. sort of. I did buy a T shirt for Defend the Night, but I also gave $300 to pantheon and Pantheon is likely vaporware at this point. 6 years of development and nothing.
Not to mention that as soon as Brad is dead, they start changing the original promise.
I think it will be DOA IF it ever releases, which isn't likely.
I'm fine with crowdfunding if they promise to deliver either the game or a refund as long the company doesn't go bankrupt. I'm not ok with Kickstarter's current terms. They leave too much room for the company to make arrangements where failed project means backers are first to lose their money and the company only loses as far as backer money is not enough to cover all the losses. That's not an acceptable division of risk.
I have never considered buying into an mmorpg kickstarter. Its either a case where I felt like their pitch wasn't that interestingh or where it felt like the finances for the game didn't made any sense compared to the game they wanted to make.
I have pledged for d:os1+2, poe 2, wasteland 3 and bards tale 4. The only game i regret pledging for was bards tale 4 but not sure why I even pledged for it in the first place, I suppose it was cheap enough.
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
It's kinda funny.. I mean as I read these responses I began to think, that to support a Kickstarter Game, I would first have to believe that everything else there is to play is shit. (to be fair some posters do put out this vibe)
So I would need to be in an unhappy place in my gaming life, Obviously, where I had nothing to play or nothing was attractive to me.
But, if I was at that Unhappy Place, I would not also be inspired to wait 5 - 7 years for a game to get made, that had the chance to make me happy.
Seems like a double-edged sword, like the KS would have to be a game I want to see made that would be excited to play, but also at the same time, be a Game I have no motive to play anytime soon.
Like.. to be honest.. I could see myself getting sucked into backing a Next Gen VR MMO, that was being built from the ground up right now to work with the VT technology we have and are also in the process of developing.. this is of course if their sales pitch didn't sound shady AF, and the game they were going to make actually appealed to me.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I am tempted to back CU, but honestly I'm a firm believer in only paying for what you get. Until the majority of the game has been implemented and I can get access, I'm not paying for it.
For the same reason, I basically never buy any early access games. The only one I did buy (that I can remember) is Prison Architect, but I only bought it after I'd seen that it was pretty much complete and I'd seen it playing on a friends PC.
Run away dude....this game is so far behind it is pathetic. They call it beta but it resembles what most (by most I mean any rational human being) would call pre-alpha. IF this ever releases it will either be as an unfinished mess or another 2 years.
Would-be devs go to kickstarter because there is less accountability than with real investors (i.e., none whatsoever).
Also, MMOs require a much more complex and detailed business plan than normal games. If you can't drum up some real investors, it's probably because your business plan is inadequate. Which means you ARE going to fail.
I have put money into packages for both Crowfall and Camelot Unchained. Have followed/watched closely Ashes of Creation, Star Citizen, and Shroud of the Avatar.
With this most recent Chronicles of Elyria debacle, I can say that I will never again back a Kickstarter MMORPG. They're too ambitious, too long in development cycles, too ...spontaneous. Direction can be changed on a whim of the developer and there's nobody to reign them in.
Camelot Unchained did that issue this year in doing their weird spin-off game thingy that nobody asked for. After already losing 2 years in development trying to make their own engine (the seemingly single bragging point). They have the same issues of CoE in that their "early previews" during the Kickstarter looked nothing like the game in the past 3 years...although some progress has been made, those pre-renders got hopes up that just didn't fulfill.
Crowfall is just.....I don't know. Seems like excitement for it definitely dropped off. Like there are 4x more testers on their EU servers. Barely in the dozens, if that. And still the game is slow to develop/launch.
Ashes did the whole battle royal thing that was just awful. So the development on that game is.....??
Star Citizen....need I say anything on that one?
And Shroud of the Avatar definitely became Pay-2-Win. Especially with its housing system. However the game itself has been reviewed as mediocre at best. Boring even. They sold their offices as of last year and have "remote development" every sense. It is writing on the wall that the game is going to go into maintenance mode.
Overall the problem is time. Backing a game in the present is basically setting hopes that in the distant future it'll be playable. 10 years distant, it seems like.
Nope, never did and probably never will. I did buy a package from SC and it was money well spend but I did that just half a year ago when it was already well in development and alpha.
And even in this case it was a difficult choice. I'm old school I guess, I don't want to hear it, asking money to kickstart a game development project equals to incompetence to me, even though that might not entirely be true.
I have been lucky that all of my kickstarters delivered. I mostly back single player crpgs but I have also backed crowfall and cu and hold out hope. I will still back promising crpgs like I recently did with Solasta but I will be holding off on mmos likely until crowfall and cu shake out.
I won't, but not specifically because of CoE, which I did back at at the minimum 'Get the game' level. I've backed a good number of KS projects, a handful have failed: EQN, Archage, CoE, Repopulation - to name the MMO KS/EA purchases. Only Crowfall and CU left. I'm still very optimistic about Crowfall but not so much CU.
Not a good record, but I group all KS games I've backed together so the ratio of wins/fails is much much better.
I won't be backing more MMO's because I'm loosing interest in the whole socialization aspect of MMO's. With two MMO's on my plate, that's enough to test how invested (in a non-monetary sense) I am willing to get.
I've also backed off dropping money on other KS projects because I'm still waiting on a few more games, and my game backlog is huge. I don't buy games as much as I used to either. With said backlog, I can usually wait for a good sale and/or the urge to play a particular game.
I could back one again. Never lost any money I wasn't ready to lose in doing so. If do, however, my criteria will be a LOT more stringent, something to the tune of:
1) detailed project plan, including projected spending and rough timeline to milestones
2) fully verified credentials of all directors within the studio
3) playable demo actually available to be played on day-1 of the KS
Comments
1. They have a full refund policy. yes this doesn't;t help if they suddenly close up shop, but if my spidey sense started to tingle I could always do it. Regardless of whether it's triggered or not (I never refunded CU) I think it's a rare method of accountability.
2. The leadership should not be taking a salary from the funds or if they do it should be minimal. This is to create forward momentum where the leadership is not rewarded for spinning their wheels. Otherwise, if you want me to fund your salary cut me into the equity side.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Most kickstarters offer a list of items like Earlier Access, faster leveling, better mounts, and whatever else. These are the first steps to a developer to get a taste of P2W.
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.
"At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."
There have been plenty of KS games that have come out and been really good, and seen success and many where the opposite is true. However the same goes for non KS/CF games, even by triple A studios that have been cancelled, or outright terrible. I don't regret for a single moment backing Ashes of Creation, as I know people working on it and they are extremely talented and very passionate developers, as well as gamers, which is a quality I tend to look for before I will back anything. I've also backed Crowfall, which I don't regret, and I've backed Book of Travels, which I am also excited for. I've backed single player games that I have absolutely loved, that have released and seen great success as well, such as Pillars of Eternity, and the Pathfinder games.
Never mind the fact that KS can and has been used with ill intentions as a get rich quick scheme, I just wouldn't have the patience to wait for something that I have taken the step of tying up some of my gaming money in for 7 years or more.
I HAVE bought several crowdfunded games after they released: Divinity OS 1 and 2, Pillars of Eternity, Wolcen, etc. but that's a different story. I had no stake in their development. They were just games that appealed to me and their method of funding development was irrelevant after they released.
IMO KS is just not suitable for games as complex and time consuming to develop as mmorpgs. I'm also very put-off by their incredibly over-optimistic projected release dates they all seem to have in common. If we as gamers knowledgeable about the mmorpg genre know that you can't develop and release an MMO in 2 or 3 years with a large, experienced team, I have zero respect for anyone who is panhandling for money to develop one that either doesn't know that or just plain lies about the estimate knowing that if they're honest about it they will get much less funding - there just would not be as many willing to pay for something coming in 7 years as they are about something allegedly coming in 2.
So, no... hard pass on crowdfunding MMOs.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Not to mention that as soon as Brad is dead, they start changing the original promise.
I think it will be DOA IF it ever releases, which isn't likely.
I think I spent $ 20 on Chronicles as it sounded interesting.
Too bad it did not work out.
I'm fine with crowdfunding if they promise to deliver either the game or a refund as long the company doesn't go bankrupt. I'm not ok with Kickstarter's current terms. They leave too much room for the company to make arrangements where failed project means backers are first to lose their money and the company only loses as far as backer money is not enough to cover all the losses. That's not an acceptable division of risk.
I have pledged for d:os1+2, poe 2, wasteland 3 and bards tale 4. The only game i regret pledging for was bards tale 4 but not sure why I even pledged for it in the first place, I suppose it was cheap enough.
So I would need to be in an unhappy place in my gaming life, Obviously, where I had nothing to play or nothing was attractive to me.
But, if I was at that Unhappy Place, I would not also be inspired to wait 5 - 7 years for a game to get made, that had the chance to make me happy.
Seems like a double-edged sword, like the KS would have to be a game I want to see made that would be excited to play, but also at the same time, be a Game I have no motive to play anytime soon.
Like.. to be honest.. I could see myself getting sucked into backing a Next Gen VR MMO, that was being built from the ground up right now to work with the VT technology we have and are also in the process of developing.. this is of course if their sales pitch didn't sound shady AF, and the game they were going to make actually appealed to me.
Would-be devs go to kickstarter because there is less accountability than with real investors (i.e., none whatsoever).
Also, MMOs require a much more complex and detailed business plan than normal games. If you can't drum up some real investors, it's probably because your business plan is inadequate. Which means you ARE going to fail.
With this most recent Chronicles of Elyria debacle, I can say that I will never again back a Kickstarter MMORPG. They're too ambitious, too long in development cycles, too ...spontaneous. Direction can be changed on a whim of the developer and there's nobody to reign them in.
Camelot Unchained did that issue this year in doing their weird spin-off game thingy that nobody asked for. After already losing 2 years in development trying to make their own engine (the seemingly single bragging point). They have the same issues of CoE in that their "early previews" during the Kickstarter looked nothing like the game in the past 3 years...although some progress has been made, those pre-renders got hopes up that just didn't fulfill.
Crowfall is just.....I don't know. Seems like excitement for it definitely dropped off. Like there are 4x more testers on their EU servers. Barely in the dozens, if that. And still the game is slow to develop/launch.
Ashes did the whole battle royal thing that was just awful. So the development on that game is.....??
Star Citizen....need I say anything on that one?
And Shroud of the Avatar definitely became Pay-2-Win. Especially with its housing system. However the game itself has been reviewed as mediocre at best. Boring even. They sold their offices as of last year and have "remote development" every sense. It is writing on the wall that the game is going to go into maintenance mode.
Overall the problem is time. Backing a game in the present is basically setting hopes that in the distant future it'll be playable. 10 years distant, it seems like.
And even in this case it was a difficult choice. I'm old school I guess, I don't want to hear it, asking money to kickstart a game development project equals to incompetence to me, even though that might not entirely be true.
1) detailed project plan, including projected spending and rough timeline to milestones
2) fully verified credentials of all directors within the studio
3) playable demo actually available to be played on day-1 of the KS