Again... this is not about Kickstarter and not about “donations”, these are about transactions that were made post-Kickstarter that all parties (customer, SBS and Xsolla) have described as purchases, sales of goods, etc...
We can discuss the whole Kickstarter “donation” stuff another time, but despite the intransigence of some... these transactions included in the lawsuit are indisputably sales of digital goods that were not delivered.
Lest you forget, these purchases had a no refund policy after a certain period of time, at least on the SBS website.
Buyer's clearly were aware of this, yet decided to go forward.
So you are trying to say that the part of the TOS where SBS claims no refunds is valid and the part where they claim the terms of the 3rd party TOS (Xsolla) would prevail is somehow not valid?
The SBS TOS (likely unenforceable) literally says that the 3rd party’s TOS takes precedence. So if you want to point at the TOS to make a “No Refunds” claim you really need to understand that same TOS says that Xsolla’s would govern the purchases made with them.
I get it that you don’t like the CoE fans. I got more hate than anyone from them, but you can’t just point to one section of a TOS and ignore the part that negates it.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Again... this is not about Kickstarter and not about “donations”, these are about transactions that were made post-Kickstarter that all parties (customer, SBS and Xsolla) have described as purchases, sales of goods, etc...
We can discuss the whole Kickstarter “donation” stuff another time, but despite the intransigence of some... these transactions included in the lawsuit are indisputably sales of digital goods that were not delivered.
Lest you forget, these purchases had a no refund policy after a certain period of time, at least on the SBS website.
Buyer's clearly were aware of this, yet decided to go forward.
Now, in a case of buyer's remorse, they wish to alter the terms of the deal they originally agreed to.
And they hope to take it from Xsolla, which I can't support.
You reap what you sow, and these folks deserve what they got.
By the way, your final line about digital goods not being delivered, you meant not delivered yet, because Xsolla's lawyers are going to argue the game's still in progress, even it's creator says so.
How can you assume that buyers were aware of a no refund policy on SBS website and not the refund policy on Xsolla's website?
The transaction took place between two parties SBS + Xsolla. If Xsolla says they're going to give refunds to protect consumers from the companies they work with, then it's perfectly reasonable to expect a refund when the terms are not met.
The only "terms of the deal" being altered due to remorse are that on the seller's part (Xsolla).
@Slapshot1188 laid it out pretty clearly in his post. And I agree. If a company says they're going to do something as part of a contract, then they need to do it or pay the consequences.
Howdy, I'm the guy referred to as the Discord Admin in this news article. Slap covered it pretty well, so I'd refer to his post. The reason we can't directly target SbS in this class action is due their lack of funds. Xsolla, on the other hand, has acted in direct defiance of their own ToS and consumer protection laws, both in the USA and internationally. We fully believe, as do our lawyers, that there's a solid case to be had against both parties.
I think the best approach against SbS would be to attack the LLC. If they can take that down, then all of the Walch's (all of them) assets *may* become fair game. An LLC cannot be used to protect assets, especially if there are criminal activities in play. Fraud comes to mind immediately.
Xsolla might be an easier target with more readily available cash.
It will be interesting to see how this case evolves and how the lawyers choose to pursue the legal action. But it may be a long, involved legal fight.
Unfortunately, no lawyer was willing to pursue the LLC individually in a Class Action suit due to the stated lack of funds. We went through over 30 different firms who all told us the exact same thing before we decided to switch angles. Believe me, I wanted nothing more than to go against Walsh directly, but we concluded a joint suit was our best chance of seeing any legal action taken. In addition, we also believe Xsolla with look to recoup losses from the LLC afterwards which is effectively a workaround.
And no worries, we're completely prepared to sit on this case for years. It'll be nice to see one of these wannabe-devs face consequences for fraud.
Going after Xsolla might succeed, but the perpetrator of all this wrongness (Walsh and SBS) get away. In this case, the LLC is being used as a means to cover for suspicious deeds of its founders. How is that justice?
Allowing a guilty party to hide behind a legal construct AND keeping/using $8 million dollars which may have been deceptively collected. And how is that a consequence to prevent this activity from reoccurring? It is a perversion of what the LLC was designed to achieve.
People may get their money back eventually, but unless there are repercussions against SBS and those behind this project, there won't be any deterrence. It *might* only deter legitimate companies from providing services to game developers and that *could* hurt the gaming industry.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Howdy, I'm the guy referred to as the Discord Admin in this news article. Slap covered it pretty well, so I'd refer to his post. The reason we can't directly target SbS in this class action is due their lack of funds. Xsolla, on the other hand, has acted in direct defiance of their own ToS and consumer protection laws, both in the USA and internationally. We fully believe, as do our lawyers, that there's a solid case to be had against both parties.
I think the best approach against SbS would be to attack the LLC. If they can take that down, then all of the Walch's (all of them) assets *may* become fair game. An LLC cannot be used to protect assets, especially if there are criminal activities in play. Fraud comes to mind immediately.
Xsolla might be an easier target with more readily available cash.
It will be interesting to see how this case evolves and how the lawyers choose to pursue the legal action. But it may be a long, involved legal fight.
Unfortunately, no lawyer was willing to pursue the LLC individually in a Class Action suit due to the stated lack of funds. We went through over 30 different firms who all told us the exact same thing before we decided to switch angles. Believe me, I wanted nothing more than to go against Walsh directly, but we concluded a joint suit was our best chance of seeing any legal action taken. In addition, we also believe Xsolla with look to recoup losses from the LLC afterwards which is effectively a workaround.
And no worries, we're completely prepared to sit on this case for years. It'll be nice to see one of these wannabe-devs face consequences for fraud.
Going after Xsolla might succeed, but the perpetrator of all this wrongness (Walsh and SBS) get away. In this case, the LLC is being used as a means to cover for suspicious deeds of its founders. How is that justice?
Allowing a guilty party to hide behind a legal construct AND keeping/using $8 million dollars which may have been deceptively collected. And how is that a consequence to prevent this activity from reoccurring? It is a perversion of what the LLC was designed to achieve.
People may get their money back eventually, but unless there are repercussions against SBS and those behind this project, there won't be any deterrence. It *might* only deter legitimate companies from providing services to game developers and that *could* hurt the gaming industry.
Howdy, I'm the guy referred to as the Discord Admin in this news article. Slap covered it pretty well, so I'd refer to his post. The reason we can't directly target SbS in this class action is due their lack of funds. Xsolla, on the other hand, has acted in direct defiance of their own ToS and consumer protection laws, both in the USA and internationally. We fully believe, as do our lawyers, that there's a solid case to be had against both parties.
I think the best approach against SbS would be to attack the LLC. If they can take that down, then all of the Walch's (all of them) assets *may* become fair game. An LLC cannot be used to protect assets, especially if there are criminal activities in play. Fraud comes to mind immediately.
Xsolla might be an easier target with more readily available cash.
It will be interesting to see how this case evolves and how the lawyers choose to pursue the legal action. But it may be a long, involved legal fight.
Unfortunately, no lawyer was willing to pursue the LLC individually in a Class Action suit due to the stated lack of funds. We went through over 30 different firms who all told us the exact same thing before we decided to switch angles. Believe me, I wanted nothing more than to go against Walsh directly, but we concluded a joint suit was our best chance of seeing any legal action taken. In addition, we also believe Xsolla with look to recoup losses from the LLC afterwards which is effectively a workaround.
And no worries, we're completely prepared to sit on this case for years. It'll be nice to see one of these wannabe-devs face consequences for fraud.
Going after Xsolla might succeed, but the perpetrator of all this wrongness (Walsh and SBS) get away. In this case, the LLC is being used as a means to cover for suspicious deeds of its founders. How is that justice?
Allowing a guilty party to hide behind a legal construct AND keeping/using $8 million dollars which may have been deceptively collected. And how is that a consequence to prevent this activity from reoccurring? It is a perversion of what the LLC was designed to achieve.
People may get their money back eventually, but unless there are repercussions against SBS and those behind this project, there won't be any deterrence. It *might* only deter legitimate companies from providing services to game developers and that *could* hurt the gaming industry.
From what I understand the suit is against both companies and anything learned through the trial will be passed to the DA for inclusion in any criminal proceedings.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
In addition, we also believe Xsolla with look to recoup losses from the LLC afterwards which is effectively a workaround.
Going after Xsolla might succeed, but the perpetrator of all this wrongness (Walsh and SBS) get away.
I agree.
The "workaround" to get Xsolla to go after SBS is just as unlikely to succeed as a class action directly against SBS for the same reasons: insulation through the LLC and no SBS funds to pay any judgments against with.
There are two things at work here: the scammer who perpetrated the scam and deserves punishment and the paying services company that provided the paying services for SBS.
Xsolla is a convenient target for those whose primary motivation is getting some of their foolishly spent cash back. Their money back guarantee is a much easier target but I honestly have only a mild interest in seeing a lawsuit against them in a way no different than the interest I would have for any anti-consumer breach of contract anywhere for anything.
The real asshole who deserves fire and brimstone rained down on his head is still getting away with it. And that's a story that interests me much more.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Howdy, I'm the guy referred to as the Discord Admin in this news article. Slap covered it pretty well, so I'd refer to his post. The reason we can't directly target SbS in this class action is due their lack of funds. Xsolla, on the other hand, has acted in direct defiance of their own ToS and consumer protection laws, both in the USA and internationally. We fully believe, as do our lawyers, that there's a solid case to be had against both parties.
Honestly, I'm rooting for Xsolla to prevail as I see this as nothing more than lawyers and clients who knew better trying to take advantage of a loophole in the Xsolla TOS simply because they have deeper pockets.
There's legal and there's right, this lawsuit is mostly the former, but definitely not the latter.
That's pretty unfair. It's not like Xsolla made a mistake in advertising. It wasn't a typo and it's not a "loophole". They INTENTIONALLY added that in order to entice companies to use them and customers to feel comfortable with them. They gained a benefit from that policy so if someone calls them on it I do not feel sorry for them. They made a profit on each and every transaction they processed.
If they did NOT include that refund policy clear as day I would agree, but they did include it and it was an intentional act, not a mistake. It's actually really shitty for the company to try and weasel out of it (after paying out the initial claims).
What's going on is that attorney's and people know that SbS is responsible, but since they don't have money to go after, they are going after Xsolla because that's where the funds are.
That's like suing the brother of a defendant because you can't receive money from that person specifically. That's not how it works in the court system. I wish them luck, but going after Xsolla will yield nothing in the end. You can't sue based on who has money and who doesn't. It's the responsible party that has to be sued. What is Xsolla responsible for? They don't develop or control the game development. They are just a 3rd party vendor that handles the transactions and are not a part of SbS.
I would give you a guest pass to SWOTR, but then I wouldn't be able to find a way to live with myself afterwards....
Howdy, I'm the guy referred to as the Discord Admin in this news article. Slap covered it pretty well, so I'd refer to his post. The reason we can't directly target SbS in this class action is due their lack of funds. Xsolla, on the other hand, has acted in direct defiance of their own ToS and consumer protection laws, both in the USA and internationally. We fully believe, as do our lawyers, that there's a solid case to be had against both parties.
Honestly, I'm rooting for Xsolla to prevail as I see this as nothing more than lawyers and clients who knew better trying to take advantage of a loophole in the Xsolla TOS simply because they have deeper pockets.
There's legal and there's right, this lawsuit is mostly the former, but definitely not the latter.
That's pretty unfair. It's not like Xsolla made a mistake in advertising. It wasn't a typo and it's not a "loophole". They INTENTIONALLY added that in order to entice companies to use them and customers to feel comfortable with them. They gained a benefit from that policy so if someone calls them on it I do not feel sorry for them. They made a profit on each and every transaction they processed.
If they did NOT include that refund policy clear as day I would agree, but they did include it and it was an intentional act, not a mistake. It's actually really shitty for the company to try and weasel out of it (after paying out the initial claims).
What's going on is that attorney's and people know that SbS is responsible, but since they don't have money to go after, they are going after Xsolla because that's where the funds are.
That's like suing the brother of a defendant because you can't receive money from that person specifically. That's not how it works in the court system. I wish them luck, but going after Xsolla will yield nothing in the end. You can't sue based on who has money and who doesn't. It's the responsible party that has to be sued. What is Xsolla responsible for? They don't develop or control the game development. They are just a 3rd party vendor that handles the transactions and are not a part of SbS.
Xsolla assumed responsibility when they created a pre-order refund policy...
It's more like handing the money to the brother of the defendant, who separately promised to give you a refund at any point until the defendant delivers the product. And then when the defendant failed to deliver, and the brother refuses to give you your money back, you sue them both.
I don't follow. How is the lawyer going to get paid no matter what? All I see is the part about him getting 35% of all potential winnings.
Unless the law firm is doing the case Pro Bono and just counting on getting money from the settlement ......
They'll Charge a Fee. So many billable hours, research material etc... etc... etc....
Here's the part of the article that refers to it "Some additional information was shared regarding the cost of services,"
And the way it normally works is their fee comes out of the settlement first and then they do the 35% or whatever is left over.
AND if the settlement doesn't cover the fee, than the guy that hired them is on the hook for what's left over. Worst case, the guy could win, not get a dime (cuz the fee ate it all up) and have to pay out of pocket to cover the remainder of the fee.
Unless they release the lawyer / client contract we'll never know until it's all said and done.
As has been said, the only guaranteed winners in court cases are the Lawyers.
My card company doubled the warranty on the cheap Chinese off brand 90 inch TV I bought. It breaks in that timeframe. Along with thousands of others who all seek remedy with the card service. The card service says No... talk to the TV company.
Thats what happened here. Both SbS and Xsolla fucked up. Why do we say the customers should have known SbS could not deliver but exclude Xsolla (who actually profited here) from the same assumption? Before guaranteeing Jeromy’s delivery they should have done their due diligence.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Again... this is not about Kickstarter and not about “donations”, these are about transactions that were made post-Kickstarter that all parties (customer, SBS and Xsolla) have described as purchases, sales of goods, etc...
We can discuss the whole Kickstarter “donation” stuff another time, but despite the intransigence of some... these transactions included in the lawsuit are indisputably sales of digital goods that were not delivered.
Lest you forget, these purchases had a no refund policy after a certain period of time, at least on the SBS website.
Buyer's clearly were aware of this, yet decided to go forward.
Now, in a case of buyer's remorse, they wish to alter the terms of the deal they originally agreed to.
And they hope to take it from Xsolla, which I can't support.
You reap what you sow, and these folks deserve what they got.
By the way, your final line about digital goods not being delivered, you meant not delivered yet, because Xsolla's lawyers are going to argue the game's still in progress, even it's creator says so.
Much too simple.
Did the purchasers base their decisions on fraudulent information?
This and many other questions can be answered in a court of law.
If Xsolla in the end has to refund money... it would be their own fault for not doing their own due diligence.
If Xsolla in the end has to refund money... it would be their own fault for not doing their own due diligence.
Why shouldn't this last line here apply to those that actually backed and gave money to this game?
This isn't about taking down a big bad... it's about buyers remorse or more accurately crowdfunding remorse.
This is more about passing the puck to someone else because they feel they have a better chance at getting some money back than from the group that actually conned them, SBS.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
If Xsolla in the end has to refund money... it would be their own fault for not doing their own due diligence.
Why shouldn't this last line here apply to those that actually backed and gave money to this game?
This isn't about taking down a big bad... it's about buyers remorse or more accurately crowdfunding remorse.
This is more about passing the puck to someone else because they feel they have a better chance at getting some money back than from the group that actually conned them, SBS.
Ummm... because Xsolla quite literally promised to refund the money at any time up until the items were delivered.
I have no love for the COE community, but this is something Xsolla explicitly agreed to do...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
If Xsolla in the end has to refund money... it would be their own fault for not doing their own due diligence.
Why shouldn't this last line here apply to those that actually backed and gave money to this game?
This isn't about taking down a big bad... it's about buyers remorse or more accurately crowdfunding remorse.
This is more about passing the puck to someone else because they feel they have a better chance at getting some money back than from the group that actually conned them, SBS.
Ummm... because Xsolla quite literally promised to refund the money at any time up until the items were delivered.
I have no love for the COE community, but this is something Xsolla explicitly agreed to do...
Seems a little too good to be true if you ask me, I wouldn't be very surprised if there wasn't some fine print tucked in somewhere.
Post edited by Asm0deus on
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
I seriously doubt anyone speculating in the comments is a lawyer, so stop speculating shit you don't know and have no idea about and let the lawsuit run its course. We don't need you to give us your all-knowing, virtuous bullshit of speculation.
I'm talking to everyone saying what they won't get, what they will get, blah blah blah. You have no frigging idea what's in their bank account and therefore have no real idea what will happen.
You mean just like how the armchair developers had no way of predicting this game’s eventual failure?
I’m sure SBS has almost nothing in their bank accounts, so the only recourse is against Xsolla, so that’s the direction the lawyers are going, but not based on any noble principal, it’s just where the money is.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Howdy, I'm the guy referred to as the Discord Admin in this news article. Slap covered it pretty well, so I'd refer to his post. The reason we can't directly target SbS in this class action is due their lack of funds. Xsolla, on the other hand, has acted in direct defiance of their own ToS and consumer protection laws, both in the USA and internationally. We fully believe, as do our lawyers, that there's a solid case to be had against both parties.
I think the best approach against SbS would be to attack the LLC. If they can take that down, then all of the Walch's (all of them) assets *may* become fair game. An LLC cannot be used to protect assets, especially if there are criminal activities in play. Fraud comes to mind immediately.
Xsolla might be an easier target with more readily available cash.
It will be interesting to see how this case evolves and how the lawyers choose to pursue the legal action. But it may be a long, involved legal fight.
Unfortunately, no lawyer was willing to pursue the LLC individually in a Class Action suit due to the stated lack of funds. We went through over 30 different firms who all told us the exact same thing before we decided to switch angles. Believe me, I wanted nothing more than to go against Walsh directly, but we concluded a joint suit was our best chance of seeing any legal action taken. In addition, we also believe Xsolla with look to recoup losses from the LLC afterwards which is effectively a workaround.
And no worries, we're completely prepared to sit on this case for years. It'll be nice to see one of these wannabe-devs face consequences for fraud.
Going after Xsolla might succeed, but the perpetrator of all this wrongness (Walsh and SBS) get away. In this case, the LLC is being used as a means to cover for suspicious deeds of its founders. How is that justice?
Allowing a guilty party to hide behind a legal construct AND keeping/using $8 million dollars which may have been deceptively collected. And how is that a consequence to prevent this activity from reoccurring? It is a perversion of what the LLC was designed to achieve.
People may get their money back eventually, but unless there are repercussions against SBS and those behind this project, there won't be any deterrence. It *might* only deter legitimate companies from providing services to game developers and that *could* hurt the gaming industry.
I agree it sucks, but what other option is there?
Err, perhaps consumers should make smarter purchasing decisions... there is that option after all.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
If Xsolla in the end has to refund money... it would be their own fault for not doing their own due diligence.
Why shouldn't this last line here apply to those that actually backed and gave money to this game?
This isn't about taking down a big bad... it's about buyers remorse or more accurately crowdfunding remorse.
This is more about passing the puck to someone else because they feel they have a better chance at getting some money back than from the group that actually conned them, SBS.
Ummm... because Xsolla quite literally promised to refund the money at any time up until the items were delivered.
I have no love for the COE community, but this is something Xsolla explicitly agreed to do...
I understand your point, but I don’t agree with it. Again, good thing I’m not on the jury.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
If Xsolla in the end has to refund money... it would be their own fault for not doing their own due diligence.
Why shouldn't this last line here apply to those that actually backed and gave money to this game?
This isn't about taking down a big bad... it's about buyers remorse or more accurately crowdfunding remorse.
This is more about passing the puck to someone else because they feel they have a better chance at getting some money back than from the group that actually conned them, SBS.
Ummm... because Xsolla quite literally promised to refund the money at any time up until the items were delivered.
I have no love for the COE community, but this is something Xsolla explicitly agreed to do...
I understand your point, but I don’t agree with it. Again, good thing I’m not on the jury.
Do you not agree because you don’t like it or because you see something factually incorrect? If the latter let me know where. I’m always willing to incorporate new facts.
As for the jury (and even judges) that’s the wildcard of our legal system. Jury nullification is a thing.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
As much as I agreed with Slap throughout this debacle that is/was COE, I have to go with Kyleran in this one. I see it as a cash grab from the backers. Once COE closed shop, the rightfully upset backers, found someone else to implicate and take their frustrations out on. While presumably legal I don’t think it’s right.
I don’t believe Xsolla is being malicious or decieptfull. They are just as much a victim as the backers are. Going after them will potentially have negative effects on gamers in the future. As other companies realize they can be implicated in such messes they will less likely offer consumers protections in the future. Just my 2 cents
If they lose don't be surprised in future Kickstarter game funding they'll have you "sign/click" an agreement that will put a time limit on how long you have to get a refund and that after that time period, "NO REFUNDS." That is if none haven't done this already.
As much as I agreed with Slap throughout this debacle that is/was COE, I have to go with Kyleran in this one. I see it as a cash grab from the backers. Once COE closed shop, the rightfully upset backers, found someone else to implicate and take their frustrations out on. While presumably legal I don’t think it’s right.
I don’t believe Xsolla is being malicious or decieptfull. They are just as much a victim as the backers are. Going after them will potentially have negative effects on gamers in the future. As other companies realize they can be implicated in such messes they will less likely offer consumers protections in the future. Just my 2 cents
So help me understand. Xsolla has a clear policy that says you can refund purchases right up until the day you receive the content you bought. Customers are attempting to activate that and initially Xsolla honored it but then they stopped.
Why exactly should Xsolla NOT refund the money?
I understand that SbS is the root evil-doer here but why do you excuse Xsolla from honoring what their policy stated? Is it "right" for a company to advertise that they will refund this stuff and then not actually do it? Again, Xsolla was taking a percentage of each and every purchase here. They made money on this. Should THEY not be held to the same standard that you hold the customer to ? Why does Xsolla get out scott-free and the customers have to eat the whole loss?
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
In legal terms, a purchase means just a transfer of property. It is no more than a transaction of property acquisition by any means except descent. A transaction like ie. donation.
Your assumption that SBS was providing pre-orderds because there was a statement somewhere of purchase just shows your usual abysmal ignorance on topic....
Comments
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
I agree it sucks, but what other option is there?
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
The "workaround" to get Xsolla to go after SBS is just as unlikely to succeed as a class action directly against SBS for the same reasons: insulation through the LLC and no SBS funds to pay any judgments against with.
There are two things at work here: the scammer who perpetrated the scam and deserves punishment and the paying services company that provided the paying services for SBS.
Xsolla is a convenient target for those whose primary motivation is getting some of their foolishly spent cash back. Their money back guarantee is a much easier target but I honestly have only a mild interest in seeing a lawsuit against them in a way no different than the interest I would have for any anti-consumer breach of contract anywhere for anything.
The real asshole who deserves fire and brimstone rained down on his head is still getting away with it. And that's a story that interests me much more.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
That's like suing the brother of a defendant because you can't receive money from that person specifically. That's not how it works in the court system. I wish them luck, but going after Xsolla will yield nothing in the end. You can't sue based on who has money and who doesn't. It's the responsible party that has to be sued. What is Xsolla responsible for? They don't develop or control the game development. They are just a 3rd party vendor that handles the transactions and are not a part of SbS.
I would give you a guest pass to SWOTR, but then I wouldn't be able to find a way to live with myself afterwards....
They'll Charge a Fee. So many billable hours, research material etc... etc... etc....
Here's the part of the article that refers to it "Some additional information was shared regarding the cost of services,"
And the way it normally works is their fee comes out of the settlement first and then they do the 35% or whatever is left over.
AND if the settlement doesn't cover the fee, than the guy that hired them is on the hook for what's left over. Worst case, the guy could win, not get a dime (cuz the fee ate it all up) and have to pay out of pocket to cover the remainder of the fee.
Unless they release the lawyer / client contract we'll never know until it's all said and done.
As has been said, the only guaranteed winners in court cases are the Lawyers.
SWG (pre-cu) - AoC (pre-f2p) - PotBS (pre-boarder) - DDO - LotRO (pre-f2p) - STO (pre-f2p) - GnH (beta tester) - SWTOR - Neverwinter
Thats what happened here. Both SbS and Xsolla fucked up. Why do we say the customers should have known SbS could not deliver but exclude Xsolla (who actually profited here) from the same assumption? Before guaranteeing Jeromy’s delivery they should have done their due diligence.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
YES!!! So glad this is happening and i didn't even back it, but as PO'd as anyone who has. Destroy this POS!!!
BUT... this has only ensured that any kickstarter will never shutdown, they'll pretend to be working on it for the rest of time.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Did the purchasers base their decisions on fraudulent information?
This and many other questions can be answered in a court of law.
If Xsolla in the end has to refund money... it would be their own fault for not doing their own due diligence.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
I have no love for the COE community, but this is something Xsolla explicitly agreed to do...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
I’m sure SBS has almost nothing in their bank accounts, so the only recourse is against Xsolla, so that’s the direction the lawyers are going, but not based on any noble principal, it’s just where the money is.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Err, perhaps consumers should make smarter purchasing decisions... there is that option after all.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I understand your point, but I don’t agree with it. Again, good thing I’m not on the jury.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
As for the jury (and even judges) that’s the wildcard of our legal system. Jury nullification is a thing.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I don’t believe Xsolla is being malicious or decieptfull. They are just as much a victim as the backers are. Going after them will potentially have negative effects on gamers in the future. As other companies realize they can be implicated in such messes they will less likely offer consumers protections in the future. Just my 2 cents
Blasphemy...I know...
Why exactly should Xsolla NOT refund the money?
I understand that SbS is the root evil-doer here but why do you excuse Xsolla from honoring what their policy stated? Is it "right" for a company to advertise that they will refund this stuff and then not actually do it? Again, Xsolla was taking a percentage of each and every purchase here. They made money on this. Should THEY not be held to the same standard that you hold the customer to ? Why does Xsolla get out scott-free and the customers have to eat the whole loss?
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
In legal terms, a purchase means just a transfer of property. It is no more than a transaction of property acquisition by any means except descent. A transaction like ie. donation.
Your assumption that SBS was providing pre-orderds because there was a statement somewhere of purchase just shows your usual abysmal ignorance on topic....
Go go armchair lawyers!