What needs to happen ?

delete5230 · July 2020

First and foremost a company that’s in it for passion.

Digital download price + monthly fees, but it better be worth it (see above). It worked in the early 2000s it can work now. Never a cash shop.

A game so large, no expansions for years. After all you payed for it (see both above).

Realms where players live in and know each other. No innovative crap, they got it right the first time.

Medium graphics and smooth game play.

Challenging content.

NO cinema videos, no personal story lines, and very few chain quest….. This takes players away from playing with others.

Old fashioned trinity system where players are dependent on other classes and no class can do it all.

Simple and easy….. Second generation....... IT'S EVERYTHING THAT IS NEEDED AND IT'S ALL GONE....Strange how it's all gone.

Amathe · July 2020

Not a bad wish list.

Scot · July 2020

I would not be bothered by a cosmetic only cash shop, but the problem with a cash shop is they go always beyond what they were originally selling. If this is a wish list than RvR is all I would add really.

Theocritus · July 2020

Digital download price + monthly fees, but it better be worth it (see above). It worked in the early 2000s it can work now. Never a cash shop.

It worked in the early 2000s because there was no other option...We had a handful of games and they all charged monthly fees....Once there were other options many of those games went f2p with a cash shop. Charging an additional fee doesn't make the game better.

delete5230 · July 2020

Theocritus said:

Digital download price + monthly fees, but it better be worth it (see above). It worked in the early 2000s it can work now. Never a cash shop.

It worked in the early 2000s because there was no other option...We had a handful of games and they all charged monthly fees....Once there were other options many of those games went f2p with a cash shop. Charging an additional fee doesn't make the game better.

You can't pick and choose things on the list, ALL must happen.

If not mmorpgs will continue to disintegrate into the ashes like their doing now.

Theirs already well over 200 games-online you to play.... This topic is more for mmorpgs to make a come back.

Tiller · July 2020

Pretty much was SWG, minus the Trinity system. You really got to know other players just by running around the game world.

I will say the only game I've played in years where I actually run into the same folks and start to recognize player names is FFXIV, which is weird but there it is. I think it has to do with the fact that there are no mega servers.

sumdumguy1 · July 2020

Playing devils advocate here. First off a good list.

However, a developer may say, I see the trends right now for mmo's. Casual gamers make up a great majority of the market. They buy impulsively often and want games they feel successful in, which translates to easy winnable content. They don't often care about others, they want a single player experience where they can play against the computer or they want a coop they can play with friends or against said friends. I also understand the large market for casual gamers in includes games like fortnite, minecraft and others like those games. Generally these games do not appeal to hardcore gamers. These are the trends as they play out right now in mmo gaming. Plus the even bigger aspect they now must consider is mobile gaming which has grown exponentially and many feel will may be the long term future for gaming. I need investors and they tell me what I posted above. IMO this is why crowdfunding has been somewhat successful in gaming. Unfortunately, while there are some good stories out there, there are so really bad ones as well. Three years ago I started with a MMO in mind and began development. The game became a mobile one and I considered a pc port but the headaches and costs associated with even a simple port don't justify the end at this time based upon the market. The market right now is full of some cynical people/gamers that can easily ruin your game with social media if it isn't up to their standards and quite often unfairly as well. (the above comes from a conversation I had with a developer last year)

delete5230 · July 2020

sumdumguy1 said:

Playing devils advocate here. First off a good list.

However, a developer may say, I see the trends right now for mmo's. Casual gamers make up a great majority of the market. They buy impulsively often and want games they feel successful in, which translates to easy winnable content. They don't often care about others, they want a single player experience where they can play against the computer or they want a coop they can play with friends or against said friends. I also understand the large market for casual gamers in includes games like fortnite, minecraft and others like those games. Generally these games do not appeal to hardcore gamers. These are the trends as they play out right now in mmo gaming. Plus the even bigger aspect they now must consider is mobile gaming which has grown exponentially and many feel will may be the long term future for gaming. I need investors and they tell me what I posted above. IMO this is why crowdfunding has been somewhat successful in gaming. Unfortunately, while there are some good stories out there, there are so really bad ones as well. Three years ago I started with a MMO in mind and began development. The game became a mobile one and I considered a pc port but the headaches and costs associated with even a simple port don't justify the end at this time based upon the market. The market right now is full of some cynical people/gamers that can easily ruin your game with social media if it isn't up to their standards and quite often unfairly as well. (the above comes from a conversation I had with a developer last year)

Playing devils advocate of the devils advocate

Casual gamers make up a great majority of the market true... BUT their are a GREAT MAJORITY of gamers that want real mmorpg's...... Much of the players wants are hidden behind marketing advertisements to make games cheaper.

Whats on my list at one time was standard, now it's financially impossible. Add that statistics don't have any second generation mmorpgs to compare it with.... giving false facts.

Tiller · July 2020

delete5230 said:

sumdumguy1 said:

Playing devils advocate here. First off a good list.

However, a developer may say, I see the trends right now for mmo's. Casual gamers make up a great majority of the market. They buy impulsively often and want games they feel successful in, which translates to easy winnable content. They don't often care about others, they want a single player experience where they can play against the computer or they want a coop they can play with friends or against said friends. I also understand the large market for casual gamers in includes games like fortnite, minecraft and others like those games. Generally these games do not appeal to hardcore gamers. These are the trends as they play out right now in mmo gaming. Plus the even bigger aspect they now must consider is mobile gaming which has grown exponentially and many feel will may be the long term future for gaming. I need investors and they tell me what I posted above. IMO this is why crowdfunding has been somewhat successful in gaming. Unfortunately, while there are some good stories out there, there are so really bad ones as well. Three years ago I started with a MMO in mind and began development. The game became a mobile one and I considered a pc port but the headaches and costs associated with even a simple port don't justify the end at this time based upon the market. The market right now is full of some cynical people/gamers that can easily ruin your game with social media if it isn't up to their standards and quite often unfairly as well. (the above comes from a conversation I had with a developer last year)

Playing devils advocate of the devils advocate

Wouldn't that just put you back at square one?

cameltosis · July 2020

delete5230 said:

First and foremost a company that’s in it for passion.

Digital download price + monthly fees, but it better be worth it (see above). It worked in the early 2000s it can work now. Never a cash shop.

A game so large, no expansions for years. After all you payed for it (see both above).

Realms where players live in and know each other. No innovative crap, they got it right the first time.

Medium graphics and smooth game play.
Challenging content.

NO cinema videos, no personal story lines, and very few chain quest….. This takes players away from playing with others.

Old fashioned trinity system where players are dependent on other classes and no class can do it all.

Simple and easy….. Second generation....... IT'S EVERYTHING THAT IS NEEDED AND IT'S ALL GONE....Strange how it's all gone.

You seem to have forgotten to finish your topic sentence.

What needs to happen.....for what? To make a good game? To make a game you enjoy? To save the genre?

delete5230 · July 2020

cameltosis said:

delete5230 said:

First and foremost a company that’s in it for passion.

Digital download price + monthly fees, but it better be worth it (see above). It worked in the early 2000s it can work now. Never a cash shop.

A game so large, no expansions for years. After all you payed for it (see both above).

Realms where players live in and know each other. No innovative crap, they got it right the first time.

Medium graphics and smooth game play.
Challenging content.

NO cinema videos, no personal story lines, and very few chain quest….. This takes players away from playing with others.

Old fashioned trinity system where players are dependent on other classes and no class can do it all.

Simple and easy….. Second generation....... IT'S EVERYTHING THAT IS NEEDED AND IT'S ALL GONE....Strange how it's all gone.

You seem to have forgotten to finish your topic sentence.

What needs to happen.....for what? To make a good game? To make a game you enjoy? To save the genre?

Survival of mmorpgs, so we don't have to sink so low as Asian cash grab games.

MrMelGibson · July 2020

delete5230 said:

cameltosis said:

delete5230 said:

First and foremost a company that’s in it for passion.

Digital download price + monthly fees, but it better be worth it (see above). It worked in the early 2000s it can work now. Never a cash shop.

A game so large, no expansions for years. After all you payed for it (see both above).

Realms where players live in and know each other. No innovative crap, they got it right the first time.

Medium graphics and smooth game play.
Challenging content.

NO cinema videos, no personal story lines, and very few chain quest….. This takes players away from playing with others.

Old fashioned trinity system where players are dependent on other classes and no class can do it all.

Simple and easy….. Second generation....... IT'S EVERYTHING THAT IS NEEDED AND IT'S ALL GONE....Strange how it's all gone.

You seem to have forgotten to finish your topic sentence.

What needs to happen.....for what? To make a good game? To make a game you enjoy? To save the genre?

Survival of mmorpgs, so we don't have to sink so low as Asian cash grab games.

Mmorpgs are for the most part dead. They are not coming back anytime soon. The new generation of gamers don't care.

The best you can hope for is a decade or two from now someone releasing a remake or a new take on the past. Maybe it will come back in style. After all, mullets seem to be back in style. I would've never thought it would happen. So there's always hope.

[Deleted User] · July 2020

The user and all related content has been deleted.

rounner · July 2020

delete5230 said:

sumdumguy1 said:

Playing devils advocate here. First off a good list.

However, a developer may say, I see the trends right now for mmo's. Casual gamers make up a great majority of the market. They buy impulsively often and want games they feel successful in, which translates to easy winnable content. They don't often care about others, they want a single player experience where they can play against the computer or they want a coop they can play with friends or against said friends. I also understand the large market for casual gamers in includes games like fortnite, minecraft and others like those games. Generally these games do not appeal to hardcore gamers. These are the trends as they play out right now in mmo gaming. Plus the even bigger aspect they now must consider is mobile gaming which has grown exponentially and many feel will may be the long term future for gaming. I need investors and they tell me what I posted above. IMO this is why crowdfunding has been somewhat successful in gaming. Unfortunately, while there are some good stories out there, there are so really bad ones as well. Three years ago I started with a MMO in mind and began development. The game became a mobile one and I considered a pc port but the headaches and costs associated with even a simple port don't justify the end at this time based upon the market. The market right now is full of some cynical people/gamers that can easily ruin your game with social media if it isn't up to their standards and quite often unfairly as well. (the above comes from a conversation I had with a developer last year)

Playing devils advocate of the devils advocate

Casual gamers make up a great majority of the market true... BUT their are a GREAT MAJORITY of gamers that want real mmorpg's...... Much of the players wants are hidden behind marketing advertisements to make games cheaper.

Whats on my list at one time was standard, now it's financially impossible. Add that statistics don't have any second generation mmorpgs to compare it with.... giving false facts.

Devils advocate of the devils advocate of the devils advocate:

Who cares about stats and majorities, if a demographic is big enough to support the game go for it.

Kyleran · July 2020

delete5230 said:

cameltosis said:

delete5230 said:

First and foremost a company that’s in it for passion.

Digital download price + monthly fees, but it better be worth it (see above). It worked in the early 2000s it can work now. Never a cash shop.

A game so large, no expansions for years. After all you payed for it (see both above).

Realms where players live in and know each other. No innovative crap, they got it right the first time.

Medium graphics and smooth game play.
Challenging content.

NO cinema videos, no personal story lines, and very few chain quest….. This takes players away from playing with others.

Old fashioned trinity system where players are dependent on other classes and no class can do it all.

Simple and easy….. Second generation....... IT'S EVERYTHING THAT IS NEEDED AND IT'S ALL GONE....Strange how it's all gone.

You seem to have forgotten to finish your topic sentence.

What needs to happen.....for what? To make a good game? To make a game you enjoy? To save the genre?

Survival of mmorpgs, so we don't have to sink so low as Asian cash grab games.

I would never stoop to playing an Asian cash grab game.

I play FO76, a wholly American cash grab game.

Always look for the "Made in USA" label.

Adamantine · July 2020

Well ... the OP demands the impossible.

He wants the big investment only manageable by a large company, thats necessary to create a top of the line product in a finished state, but at the same time the idealistic spirit of a young and small company that cannot possibly manage such a huge investment in the first place.

If you followed any of these small likeable gaming companies you would easily see that, again and again. Bioware that went to EA was a good example. The moment EA owned Bioware, they pooped over all of Biowares projects. Dragon Age: Origins lost the multiplayer that was planned, just like Baldurs Gate had had it. Instead it was also released for console, which lead to inferior console style controls on PC. A large part of the game was immediately stipped and offered as a "free" download - but you had to give the company your private data for it. DA2 then was nothing but a simple money grab. Mass Effect also had many problems thanks to EAs regime, and ME Andromeda was another money grab.

The only project thats around that actually could have managed such a thing would have been Star Citizen. And wouldnt you know, they apparently already failed. They already accepted private investors. Despite raising no less than 300 mio $ of funding from the community, it still wasnt enough for them.

Mind you Star Citizen is massively embarassing anyway. They originally wanted to release in 2014 and in 2020 they dont even have an official release date, nevermind a finished product.

Still, that would have been the only chance I'm aware of. And I'm not in a position to know what went wrong. Was it incompetence ? Was it greed ? Or is there still a chance that the final product is actually in the state the OP demands ? Nevermind that its not the product the OP wants.

Either way its the only project I know of which technically could still deliver what the OP demands - a AAA game that is made in actually idealistic spirit. Because community funding allows exactly that. At least in theory. If you dont also accept investor money, because investors as a rule are in for the money and thus only interested in maximized profits.

For comparison Vanguard IIRC "only" had a budget of 50 mio $ ... sure, they published it unfinished, but still Star Citizen could invest double that and thus release THREE titles of his scope in a finished state, WITHOUT picking up monex from any extra investors.

Also I wouldnt play the game the OP proposes, anyway.

Okay, most of it is basically Vanguard. Which to me is the best game I've ever played. Though the OP didnt mention any of the big advantages of Vanguard, such as the great class design, the great combat system, the great dungeon designs, the huge gaming world with realistic viewing distances, etc.

But -- seriously ? No large quest chains, because that "takes awas players from playing with others" ?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

ROTFL

If the game is boring - and boring quests that have no depth to them will do exactly that - I simply wont play. End of story. Bye.

And I've played plenty of long quest chains with groups. Its no problem whatsoever. Okay, sometimes the group didnt stayed together and you had to redo the questline from the start again with another group. Thats kind of sad, but oh well, it just wasnt mean to be.

But long questslines can tell interesting stories and really build atmosphere etc, something short quests cant do. And if the group doesnt fall apart, its giving a great experience you all share, which increases the chance of the group staying together in future.

Also, short quests do NOT propose any challenge. By very definition. The OP demands challenge. So that just makes no sense. You cannot get much of a challenge with simple quests, which will always be trivial stuff like simple fetch quests. You can only do so many "kill X mobs to get Y drops" quests in a row before you just hate the game and yourself and the world and quit this b.s.

Arglebargle · July 2020

It's all the OP's usual BS. 'Must be done this way! Only as I say!'

I didn't play the first wave of MMOs because they sucked....for me.

People played them then because that was all they had to play.

Different world now. You never enter the same MMO river twice. The ship's sailed, and already sank.

Following the 'precepts' promulgated by the deletionist would lead to a huge loss of money for the company attempting it, as it would be difficult to deliver that at a price that would be supported by the player base.

You sure wouldn't get mine.

delete5230 · July 2020

Adamantine said:

Well ... the OP demands the impossible.

He wants the big investment only manageable by a large company, thats necessary to create a top of the line product in a finished state, but at the same time the idealistic spirit of a young and small company that cannot possibly manage such a huge investment in the first place.

If you followed any of these small likeable gaming companies you would easily see that, again and again. Bioware that went to EA was a good example. The moment EA owned Bioware, they pooped over all of Biowares projects. Dragon Age: Origins lost the multiplayer that was planned, just like Baldurs Gate had had it. Instead it was also released for console, which lead to inferior console style controls on PC. A large part of the game was immediately stipped and offered as a "free" download - but you had to give the company your private data for it. DA2 then was nothing but a simple money grab. Mass Effect also had many problems thanks to EAs regime, and ME Andromeda was another money grab.

The only project thats around that actually could have managed such a thing would have been Star Citizen. And wouldnt you know, they apparently already failed. They already accepted private investors. Despite raising no less than 300 mio $ of funding from the community, it still wasnt enough for them.

Mind you Star Citizen is massively embarassing anyway. They originally wanted to release in 2014 and in 2020 they dont even have an official release date, nevermind a finished product.

Still, that would have been the only chance I'm aware of. And I'm not in a position to know what went wrong. Was it incompetence ? Was it greed ? Or is there still a chance that the final product is actually in the state the OP demands ? Nevermind that its not the product the OP wants.

Either way its the only project I know of which technically could still deliver what the OP demands - a AAA game that is made in actually idealistic spirit. Because community funding allows exactly that. At least in theory. If you dont also accept investor money, because investors as a rule are in for the money and thus only interested in maximized profits.

For comparison Vanguard IIRC "only" had a budget of 50 mio $ ... sure, they published it unfinished, but still Star Citizen could invest double that and thus release THREE titles of his scope in a finished state, WITHOUT picking up monex from any extra investors.

Also I wouldnt play the game the OP proposes, anyway.

Okay, most of it is basically Vanguard. Which to me is the best game I've ever played. Though the OP didnt mention any of the big advantages of Vanguard, such as the great class design, the great combat system, the great dungeon designs, the huge gaming world with realistic viewing distances, etc.

But -- seriously ? No large quest chains, because that "takes awas players from playing with others" ?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

ROTFL

If the game is boring - and boring quests that have no depth to them will do exactly that - I simply wont play. End of story. Bye.

And I've played plenty of long quest chains with groups. Its no problem whatsoever. Okay, sometimes the group didnt stayed together and you had to redo the questline from the start again with another group. Thats kind of sad, but oh well, it just wasnt mean to be.

But long questslines can tell interesting stories and really build atmosphere etc, something short quests cant do. And if the group doesnt fall apart, its giving a great experience you all share, which increases the chance of the group staying together in future.

Also, short quests do NOT propose any challenge. By very definition. The OP demands challenge. So that just makes no sense. You cannot get much of a challenge with simple quests, which will always be trivial stuff like simple fetch quests. You can only do so many "kill X mobs to get Y drops" quests in a row before you just hate the game and yourself and the world and quit this b.s.

Cranky as always,

Sure it's impossible, but it's what has to happen regardless.

Why..... greed took over and is here to stay. You spewed your rant about EA and Biowaire, we all know that It's pretty much the standard talk in explaining the corruption that had taken over.

Everything on the list HAS TO HAPPEN in order to get our mmorpgs back, will it ?... no !

Everything before 1999 up until September 18 2008 everything on the list was doable but then Warhammer Online was the first to show it's ugly face and it was downhill from their.

Your rant about chain quest was totally un needed "very few" is fine, Vanguard is fine. Have you played FF14 it's one looooog 250 part chain quest, and most every game after follows it's path..... Try playing Elders Scrolls On line!!!!

Try playing with others in games like this you will get "sorry I'm busy". But you can always hop into an auto dynamic event.

I guess everything has to be in detail, yet people say my post are too long... that's because I have to answer to people like you !!

AAAMEOW · July 2020

Give up and settle. Just pick up one of the cash grab vaporware mmorpg listed on this site. There are already hundreds of them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T43jQQzm0qo

Abscissa15 · July 2020

MrMelGibson said:

delete5230 said:

cameltosis said:

delete5230 said:

First and foremost a company that’s in it for passion.

Digital download price + monthly fees, but it better be worth it (see above). It worked in the early 2000s it can work now. Never a cash shop.

A game so large, no expansions for years. After all you payed for it (see both above).

Realms where players live in and know each other. No innovative crap, they got it right the first time.

Medium graphics and smooth game play.
Challenging content.

NO cinema videos, no personal story lines, and very few chain quest….. This takes players away from playing with others.

Old fashioned trinity system where players are dependent on other classes and no class can do it all.

Simple and easy….. Second generation....... IT'S EVERYTHING THAT IS NEEDED AND IT'S ALL GONE....Strange how it's all gone.

You seem to have forgotten to finish your topic sentence.

What needs to happen.....for what? To make a good game? To make a game you enjoy? To save the genre?

Survival of mmorpgs, so we don't have to sink so low as Asian cash grab games.

Mmorpgs are for the most part dead. They are not coming back anytime soon. The new generation of gamers don't care.

The best you can hope for is a decade or two from now someone releasing a remake or a new take on the past. Maybe it will come back in style. After all, mullets seem to be back in style. I would've never thought it would happen. So there's always hope.

Very sad if accurate and I fear that this is pretty close to the mark. Two decades from now some of us will be wheelchair jousting at the "retirement community".

Theocritus · July 2020

Tiller said:

delete5230 said:

sumdumguy1 said:

Playing devils advocate here. First off a good list.

However, a developer may say, I see the trends right now for mmo's. Casual gamers make up a great majority of the market. They buy impulsively often and want games they feel successful in, which translates to easy winnable content. They don't often care about others, they want a single player experience where they can play against the computer or they want a coop they can play with friends or against said friends. I also understand the large market for casual gamers in includes games like fortnite, minecraft and others like those games. Generally these games do not appeal to hardcore gamers. These are the trends as they play out right now in mmo gaming. Plus the even bigger aspect they now must consider is mobile gaming which has grown exponentially and many feel will may be the long term future for gaming. I need investors and they tell me what I posted above. IMO this is why crowdfunding has been somewhat successful in gaming. Unfortunately, while there are some good stories out there, there are so really bad ones as well. Three years ago I started with a MMO in mind and began development. The game became a mobile one and I considered a pc port but the headaches and costs associated with even a simple port don't justify the end at this time based upon the market. The market right now is full of some cynical people/gamers that can easily ruin your game with social media if it isn't up to their standards and quite often unfairly as well. (the above comes from a conversation I had with a developer last year)

Playing devils advocate of the devils advocate

Wouldn't that just put you back at square one?

Haha yes like using a double negative

delete5230 · July 2020

Theocritus said:

Tiller said:

delete5230 said:

sumdumguy1 said:

Playing devils advocate here. First off a good list.

However, a developer may say, I see the trends right now for mmo's. Casual gamers make up a great majority of the market. They buy impulsively often and want games they feel successful in, which translates to easy winnable content. They don't often care about others, they want a single player experience where they can play against the computer or they want a coop they can play with friends or against said friends. I also understand the large market for casual gamers in includes games like fortnite, minecraft and others like those games. Generally these games do not appeal to hardcore gamers. These are the trends as they play out right now in mmo gaming. Plus the even bigger aspect they now must consider is mobile gaming which has grown exponentially and many feel will may be the long term future for gaming. I need investors and they tell me what I posted above. IMO this is why crowdfunding has been somewhat successful in gaming. Unfortunately, while there are some good stories out there, there are so really bad ones as well. Three years ago I started with a MMO in mind and began development. The game became a mobile one and I considered a pc port but the headaches and costs associated with even a simple port don't justify the end at this time based upon the market. The market right now is full of some cynical people/gamers that can easily ruin your game with social media if it isn't up to their standards and quite often unfairly as well. (the above comes from a conversation I had with a developer last year)

Playing devils advocate of the devils advocate

Wouldn't that just put you back at square one?

Haha yes like using a double negative

Well,
A Double negative of a double negative is four negatives, what would that be

I'm all confused

AlBQuirky · July 2020

delete5230 said:

Sure it's impossible, but it's what has to happen regardless.

Why? To make one player (you) happy? You going to spend enough in the game to warrant a whole company catering to your exclusive very limited tastes?

The toughest part of creating a game, ANY game, is taking the initial idea and merging it with what will sell. That means, unfortunately, that "the masses must be pleased, not delete5230.

Or...

You can leave MMOs behind and find another genre you enjoy playing, as I and many others have

ShaniaReborn · July 2020

So, OP, what you are saying is you want a developer to take 20 years to make a game? Seriously, enough content for years before there is an expansion? I think your expectations are pie in the sky. Look at Ashes for example, they are still years from release. Ashes has been in development for five years now. Fortnite was the death knell for AAA MMORPGs. Now Investors expect a quick return on their money. That simply can not happen with an MMORPG the size of which you are talking about. Bottom line, chances are that any AAA MMORPG will come from an indie crowd funded game instead of the likes of Bethesda, etc.

Adamantine · July 2020

Oh whow lots of personal attacks around here.

I'll leave you to that. Have fun.

Cryomatrix · July 2020

Basically OP wants a very expensive game due to size and polish for a minority of gamers with an antiquated monetization system . . .

Howdy, Stranger!

What needs to happen ?

Comments

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Howdy, Stranger!

Quick Links

What needs to happen ?

Comments

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV