I'm a huge OW fan but also played BBorn and Paladins. Your timeline about Hi-Rez is off. Paladins and OW co-existed at the same time and Hi-Rez did not "wade" into OW's territory. All 3 games strolled into the water and literally the exact same time. There's been a lot of videos out there showing OW might have even taken some ideas from GA. Not the most spot on reporting there.
The biggest issue with firefall is it had no real direction. It changed completely three times that I remember. I mean all the way back to the drawing board. The second iteration was actually fun. It felt like they were in the board run just throwing out ideas and seeing what would stick instead of having a true vision. It's sad the devs killed their own game in the end.
Defiance failed partly because it was managed by Trion, and partly because it was heavily tied to the Syfy show. Once that show ended, the game died a natural death.
Yes the failure was all on TRION with that one.
You would have thought that studios took a good lesson from the NGE debacle with Star Wars Galaxies, but nope..... TRION let their greed and desperation get the better of them and had to do their very own NGE on Defiance, all for the sake to push people into the Cash shop.... and still failed miserably.
Geezz... I wonder why? /Facepalm
Defiance had a fantastic horizontal progression system at launch and the game was a blast. They just had to expand on it more, increase the map size by releasing new maps to the game.
Instead, when the show didn't caught on and subscription numbers went down, they instead focused on adding stuff to the Cash shop, instead of improving the game itself.
This was the first round where they pissed people off and drove them away, reducing subscriber numbers even more.
Then, TRION figured out that due to the horizontal progression system, people were not really interested in buying stuff from the Cash shop, since TRION couldn't even do that right and put stuff in the Cash Shop that was interesting enough for people to buy, like nice cosmetics are something at the right price.
Instead they kept putting stuff in there (like real weapons and items), that was no better than what people already could get in the game.
So then strike three happened! TRION pulled an NGE on Defiance and butchered the game into a vanilla themepark leveling experience, removed a ton of gear (or made it much harder to get), so their Cash Shop suddenly became P2W and could be shoveled through people's throat!
After that whole experience, I quit and never touched a single TRION game ever again!
Which such terrible leadership and immoral business practices... it's no wonder what happened to TRION after that and where they are today. /Shrug
Liked all of them better than destiny actually. I wish Firefall would have kept going with their original ideas and just add more zones, activites, dungeons, events and raid-like encounters. They really had a good formula for a while, but they kept rebuilding and simplifying everything instead of keep going forward.
Firefall tried (and failed) to do anything. They had no cohesive identity.
Destiny tried (and failed) to do Warframe.
Actually Destiny went into Development before Warframe. They had the idea for Destiny after Halo 2 I believe. Destiny is far from a failure at anything. It's a massive success.
You can not like the game, that's one thing, but to call it anything other than success is an outright lie.
You usually make good points but this was a Horrible/Lazy take by you.
Developing in a bubble is a bad idea. By the time Destiny launched as a massive disappointment, Warframe had ample time to improve and become a genre leader.
You can feel free to disagree, but that's my take. Almost everything Destiny does, even now, Warframe does better with 10x the content.
And yeh, i know a lot of people will say that destiny should be considered an mmo because it shares a lot of features commonly found in mmorpgs, but it lacks the defining feature: being massively multiplayer. Not a problem for some people, is a problem for others. Personal preference and all that.
As that mass of multiple players continues to have less functional impact on each other in MMORPGs that "defining feature" becomes increasingly more a nod to the Ghost of Gaming Past than a reflection of their true nature in practice these days.
The definitions are blurring because the genres themselves are. MMORPGs that used to require cooperation for success are now solo-friendly to the point where one can get a more group based experience in other types of games.
They may not technically be MMORPGs, but for some can do a better job at functioning and feeling as one than a game that checks all the traditional boxes.
Totally agree that the functional impact of being massively multiplayer has been diminished, sometimes totally ignored, and so it's relevance in many games that are mmos is minimal. It therefore makes sense that devs are ditching the feature completely and going for just normal multiplayer numbers. If you're not going to design features for the amount of people, why bother having them?
But, it is still a feature, it is still the defining feature of the genre, and im still of the belief that if devs start focusing on it again then the genre as a whole will benefit. What form that focus might take - huge open world events, large pvp arenas, large scale cooperative building projects, players cities etc - I've no idea. I'm excited to find out though :P
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
Shame they never really got the financial backing they really needed, and the attempts at generating income via changing game mechanics didn't pay off.
A PROPER MMOFPS was one of my most sought after games. Huxley was the first game I know of that really catered to it.. and it died in beta.
Firefall tried (and failed) to do anything. They had no cohesive identity.
Destiny tried (and failed) to do Warframe.
Actually Destiny went into Development before Warframe. They had the idea for Destiny after Halo 2 I believe. Destiny is far from a failure at anything. It's a massive success.
You can not like the game, that's one thing, but to call it anything other than success is an outright lie.
You usually make good points but this was a Horrible/Lazy take by you.
Developing in a bubble is a bad idea. By the time Destiny launched as a massive disappointment, Warframe had ample time to improve and become a genre leader.
You can feel free to disagree, but that's my take. Almost everything Destiny does, even now, Warframe does better with 10x the content.
Ok, I want to revisit something you wrote: "Destiny tried (and failed) to do Warframe."
How? Destiny hasn't copied anything that Warframe has done. At all. Ive played both games since launch, there is nothing that Warframe did that Destiny copied to survive.
Both games are their own thing, but if one influenced the other it would absolutely be Destiny influencing Warframe.
BTW, You do realize that the only reason Warframe has "open-world spaces" right now is because of Destiny right? When Warframe released it was just corridors and hallways.
You said it yourself "Everything Destiny does, Warframe does better" which means you realize that Warframe is influenced by Destiny not the other way around.
"Beliefs don't change facts. Facts, if you're reasonable, should change your beliefs."
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
Firefall tried (and failed) to do anything. They had no cohesive identity.
Destiny tried (and failed) to do Warframe.
Actually Destiny went into Development before Warframe. They had the idea for Destiny after Halo 2 I believe. Destiny is far from a failure at anything. It's a massive success.
You can not like the game, that's one thing, but to call it anything other than success is an outright lie.
You usually make good points but this was a Horrible/Lazy take by you.
Destiny was financially successful. I played it because it was a Bungie title, and they had a good track record, but Destiny missed the mark after the first half of the campaign, when the most fun you can have is standing in a group, and shooting at a hole for loot, then I would argue that they did not succeed in making an enjoyable game.
They did course correct by the time Taken King came out, but then killed it shortly after by releasing Destiny 2. I played Destiny 2 a little, but it just felt like more of the same, and I haven't wanted to pay more money to see if it has improved at all.
On that note, why did Actiblizz part ways with them? I would figure if they were massively successful Actiblizz would have held onto them with Bobby Kotick's pearl clutched grasp.
They were a Massive success for 8 years actually, but they were also unhappy as a team because they didn't actually own their IP's Publishing. If you know anything about how Publishing works you would know exactly why Bungie left.
Activision can't hold a group that wants to leave. They signed a 10-year contract originally and it was basically done.
There were also creative disagreements, like the way ActiBlizz wanted them to do the cash shop stuff in Destiny 2. It was very predatory at launch. That's not the case anymore. If you haven't played since launch I suggest you check it out again, its a much different game today than at launch.
Its also free to play, another choice Bungie was able to make on their own. Actiblizz wanted to charge the full $60 price for every expansion pack. Making it confusing to play with Friends because if you didn't own Expansion B, you cant play with people who had Expansion C.. Its just a horrible choice for that game.
Bungie did the right thing in my opinion. They weren't let go, they left. Big difference. ActiBlizz would have tried to sign them for at least 5 more years if they could. Destiny made them a lot of money.
"Beliefs don't change facts. Facts, if you're reasonable, should change your beliefs."
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
With 3 player groups and 6 player raids WTF isn't an MMO? Might as well call Fortnight and Call of Duty MMOs. They have more players than Destiny. The term is meaningless at this point if your not going to identify something as just multiplayer and call everything massively multiplayer.
At this point MMO hasn't just been watered down, it's nothing left but a puddle.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
I really enjoyed all 3 of these games. I absolutely loved the defending the thumper game loop in Firefall to get resources. Wife and I still log into Defiance now and then. I was going to try and introduce her to Global Agenda and was sad to see it was gone.
I grouped in Destiny and Destiny 2 doing Nightfalls/Raids/PvP/ and even open world events more than what you call mmo.
Yes there is a limit of 15 people on a lobby at a time but people group up or do live events together.
MMO now days are solo games with chat just endgame a small % of the people playing group to raid, but Destiny has voice chat in groups(the new D2 PC version has chat though)
Destiny 1 and 2 MMO content in a nutshell: Raids, Dungeons, PvP, open world events, even the story missions you can group with friends to make it easier and faster, exotic weapons quests, and weapon/armor grind.
Reason I quit is they added seasons and becomes a chore and not fun anymore same reason I stopped playing The Division 2 which is awesome game at core but F seasons.
Been saying this since Destiny 1 came out. People around here are old and mostly washed up bitter/jaded mmo vets that hate anything new. These are the guys that think DAOC and SWGs are the greatest games ever made. They are stuck in 2001-5
I learned to just laugh at em. I just laugh and shake my head before I go play my "non-mmo" MMO games.
I grouped in Destiny and Destiny 2 doing Nightfalls/Raids/PvP/ and even open world events more than what you call mmo.
Yes there is a limit of 15 people on a lobby at a time but people group up or do live events together.
MMO now days are solo games with chat just endgame a small % of the people playing group to raid, but Destiny has voice chat in groups(the new D2 PC version has chat though)
Destiny 1 and 2 MMO content in a nutshell: Raids, Dungeons, PvP, open world events, even the story missions you can group with friends to make it easier and faster, exotic weapons quests, and weapon/armor grind.
Reason I quit is they added seasons and becomes a chore and not fun anymore same reason I stopped playing The Division 2 which is awesome game at core but F seasons.
Been saying this since Destiny 1 came out. People around here are old and mostly washed up bitter/jaded mmo vets that hate anything new. These are the guys that think DAOC and SWGs are the greatest games ever made. They are stuck in 2001-5
I learned to just laugh at em. I just laugh and shake my head before I go play my "non-mmo" MMO games.
I really wish Firefall did better, but I also feel the developers are to blame.
They changed directions too many times, they should never had flattened the progression system and they should have focused on the PvE rather than try to cater to the PvP crowd
Firefall should have stayed a PvE Sandbox with constant Chosen invasions. That was fun. The linear, grindy WoW clone (who ever heard of a thempark with only 3 maps!) we got was not fun.
Firefall should have stayed a PvE Sandbox with constant Chosen invasions. That was fun. The linear, grindy WoW clone (who ever heard of a thempark with only 3 maps!) we got was not fun.
It was better but it was more niche
MMO devs are almost always focused on what will attract more players - even if it means making the game worse, its a gamble that usually doesn't pay off.
Something tells me that a themepark with only 3 maps and an unsatisfying loot system is even more niche.
That was one decision made much too late in development. Not unlike a certain colonial MMO.
I really wish Firefall did better, but I also feel the developers are to blame.
They changed directions too many times, they should never had flattened the progression system and they should have focused on the PvE rather than try to cater to the PvP crowd
They did. I don't think most people here actually played the game and stuck with it enough to see what was really going on with it. Department or company aside, the game pretty much died completely after the 1.6 update.
Let me explain: Everyone who still played Firefall and were thinking about coming back to the game was waiting on the 1.6 update.
They were going to bring back Jetball pvp
An endless mode pve instance for endgame
More raids
Difficulty modes for instances
Pve bounty system
All battleframes were getting a combat update
A new progression system after reaching level 20
Elite ranking system once you reach max level
Finally armor customization
An LFG for instances
A brand new, new player experience with an improved story mode with cutscenes, more voiceacting, and missions
But this update took forever for them to implement. Almost a full year of waiting. And than when it finally arrived, it was horrible. For one thing, there was no pvp. It was removed. And migration of gear was handed so poorly I don't even think the programmers knew what they were doing. And soooooooo many bugs. Every class sucked and was unfun to play expect the Firecat battleframe.
The huge delay and the horrible 1.6 update is what killed it. Cause at that point, what little playerbase was left, pretty much completely left.
I had so much fun with Firefall. i think their biggest mistake was promising no wipes. Also they could not figure out play loops that people would be willing to accept. R5 tried gear damage and repair etc. I still have fond memories of invasions and the world boss. I wish they could have picked a direction and stuck with it. ...
I played Firefall at Pax many years back. We were timed to have 15 minutes to play. There was a long line. I waited a good 25 minutes and got to play. I stopped and turned to the guy that was working there and said "I'm done."
He looked puzzled and said "You have more time if you want."
I replied "No, I'm good." and I walked away. The guy had a worried look on his face. I somehow felt and I don't know why, but I felt like I wasn't the first person to walk away from their game without playing the full time. There just wasn't enough for me to keep me engaged. It felt too unrefined, not enough identity. The thumper thing was 'cute' but nowhere developed enough to keep my interest.
I have no idea how development went after that, but it certainly dropped off my radar.
Comments
Yes the failure was all on TRION with that one.
You would have thought that studios took a good lesson from the NGE debacle with Star Wars Galaxies, but nope..... TRION let their greed and desperation get the better of them and had to do their very own NGE on Defiance, all for the sake to push people into the Cash shop.... and still failed miserably.
Geezz... I wonder why? /Facepalm
Defiance had a fantastic horizontal progression system at launch and the game was a blast. They just had to expand on it more, increase the map size by releasing new maps to the game.
Instead, when the show didn't caught on and subscription numbers went down, they instead focused on adding stuff to the Cash shop, instead of improving the game itself.
This was the first round where they pissed people off and drove them away, reducing subscriber numbers even more.
Then, TRION figured out that due to the horizontal progression system, people were not really interested in buying stuff from the Cash shop, since TRION couldn't even do that right and put stuff in the Cash Shop that was interesting enough for people to buy, like nice cosmetics are something at the right price.
Instead they kept putting stuff in there (like real weapons and items), that was no better than what people already could get in the game.
So then strike three happened! TRION pulled an NGE on Defiance and butchered the game into a vanilla themepark leveling experience, removed a ton of gear (or made it much harder to get), so their Cash Shop suddenly became P2W and could be shoveled through people's throat!
After that whole experience, I quit and never touched a single TRION game ever again!
Which such terrible leadership and immoral business practices... it's no wonder what happened to TRION after that and where they are today. /Shrug
You can feel free to disagree, but that's my take. Almost everything Destiny does, even now, Warframe does better with 10x the content.
Shame they never really got the financial backing they really needed, and the attempts at generating income via changing game mechanics didn't pay off.
A PROPER MMOFPS was one of my most sought after games. Huxley was the first game I know of that really catered to it.. and it died in beta.
Ok, I want to revisit something you wrote: "Destiny tried (and failed) to do Warframe."
How? Destiny hasn't copied anything that Warframe has done. At all. Ive played both games since launch, there is nothing that Warframe did that Destiny copied to survive.
Both games are their own thing, but if one influenced the other it would absolutely be Destiny influencing Warframe.
BTW, You do realize that the only reason Warframe has "open-world spaces" right now is because of Destiny right? When Warframe released it was just corridors and hallways.
You said it yourself "Everything Destiny does, Warframe does better" which means you realize that Warframe is influenced by Destiny not the other way around.
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
Activision can't hold a group that wants to leave. They signed a 10-year contract originally and it was basically done.
There were also creative disagreements, like the way ActiBlizz wanted them to do the cash shop stuff in Destiny 2. It was very predatory at launch. That's not the case anymore. If you haven't played since launch I suggest you check it out again, its a much different game today than at launch.
Its also free to play, another choice Bungie was able to make on their own. Actiblizz wanted to charge the full $60 price for every expansion pack. Making it confusing to play with Friends because if you didn't own Expansion B, you cant play with people who had Expansion C.. Its just a horrible choice for that game.
Bungie did the right thing in my opinion. They weren't let go, they left. Big difference. ActiBlizz would have tried to sign them for at least 5 more years if they could. Destiny made them a lot of money.
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
boom.
nuff said. close the article lol.
These boys coudlnt handle stuff like Neocron back in the day.
It..Burns..
At this point MMO hasn't just been watered down, it's nothing left but a puddle.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/You would think massively multiplayer would be a huge indicator but apparently not.
Then again that 1 in 4 Americans think the Sun revolves around the Earth link in there explains a lot.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/That was one decision made much too late in development. Not unlike a certain colonial MMO.
Let me explain:
Everyone who still played Firefall and were thinking about coming back to the game was waiting on the 1.6 update.
- They were going to bring back Jetball pvp
- An endless mode pve instance for endgame
- More raids
- Difficulty modes for instances
- Pve bounty system
- All battleframes were getting a combat update
- A new progression system after reaching level 20
- Elite ranking system once you reach max level
- Finally armor customization
- An LFG for instances
- A brand new, new player experience with an improved story mode with cutscenes, more voiceacting, and missions
But this update took forever for them to implement. Almost a full year of waiting. And than when it finally arrived, it was horrible. For one thing, there was no pvp. It was removed. And migration of gear was handed so poorly I don't even think the programmers knew what they were doing. And soooooooo many bugs. Every class sucked and was unfun to play expect the Firecat battleframe.The huge delay and the horrible 1.6 update is what killed it. Cause at that point, what little playerbase was left, pretty much completely left.
Fishing on Gilgamesh since 2013
Fishing on Bronzebeard since 2005
Fishing in RL since 1992
Born with a fishing rod in my hand in 1979
He looked puzzled and said "You have more time if you want."
I replied "No, I'm good." and I walked away. The guy had a worried look on his face. I somehow felt and I don't know why, but I felt like I wasn't the first person to walk away from their game without playing the full time. There just wasn't enough for me to keep me engaged. It felt too unrefined, not enough identity. The thumper thing was 'cute' but nowhere developed enough to keep my interest.
I have no idea how development went after that, but it certainly dropped off my radar.