Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

OPINION: The MMORPG Drought

124»

Comments

  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,534
    Personally, I think, as far as AAA MMO's go, is that copying WoW is not working, so all these established professional game developers have no idea what to do or where to go from here, and the backers are realizing that most of them were posers.
    YashaX
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,534
    I personally think VR is the future of MMO's, as the whole idea of VR lends itself perfectly to the MMO "Virtual world" landscape, as no other gaming medium truly tries to make Virtual Worlds like MMO's do. 

    So it just stands to reason that MMO's and VR will evolve into a amazing unison, right now, the technology is still rough, perhaps even crude, so, only early adopters will jump into it. But like anything, as it gains traction more will come, flood the genre, and all the early adopters will hate it and claim it sucks. Anyway.



    ---Yeah bro, you can buy body trackers and haptic suits now. Most people don't want to spend the money because "basic" VR is so immersive it isn't really needed. Just out of curiosity, how much haptic feedback do you expect when playing on a standard monitor? Why is it all or nothing for VR, but you will happily accept the same old with a standard monitor? Why not enjoy what VR has to offer now rather than pretend it has to be something so much more that you think it is now before you will entertain the idea of it?


    I'll try to put it a simpler way:


    On a scale of 0% VR (real life) to 100% VR (matrix, holodeck), where do you think we are right now?

    I'd put us at about 1% (headset only) to 5% (headset + best gloves/suits).

    Thats not enough for me. Whilst I admit I have not used any modern gloves, the stuff I have tried out was shit. Such a small amount of the experience being virtual reality creates a massive disconnect in my brain and I fucking hate it. It feels awful. When my eyes tell me to expect something to happen, like someone shooting me in the head, or someone swinging a sword at me, and then it doesn't actually happen because the devices don't exist, I feel disconnected from the experience. It creates a discord in my brain and it makes me disappointed, sometimes angry.

    In short, existing VR (outside of racing and space games with devices) leave me feeling worse than when I started playing. That is a really bad thing for an entertainment device to do. I should feel better after the experience, not worse.



    Now, as that percentage of VR starts to increase, so will my enjoyment. We'll all have different minimum levels for enjoyment. For you, clearly what we have now is good enough and you're enjoying that. Great. For me, it's not enough. I need more. My expectation is that level is going to come at around 15-20% VR.  
    I think the largest problem with what you want, is that, that level of, what would be classified as force feedback does not lend itself well to violent games.

    Now to be clear, I am not saying that you would not enjoy crumpling over onto the ground in pain, spitting up blood and needing to go to the doctor to make sure you do not have any major real life injuries after a exceptionally brutal and violent battle in an MMO where your side lost, but, I think you would be of a very small subset of gamers that would enjoy that.

    However, I am sure it pleases you to know that force-feedback bodysuits have been made, so you can get a sense of feeling as you play, I doubt they are to the level of harsh reality you seek, but they do exist none the less.


    Kyleranultimateduck
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • ultimateduckultimateduck Member EpicPosts: 1,309
    edited September 2020

    If you read my posts


    I said on a scale of 0% VR to 100% VR, im looking for 15-20%.

    It's a sliding scale, and each of us is going to have a minimum level where it starts to feel comfortable and immersive.

    For me, the current level is too low, I hate the disconnect between what my eyes are seeing and what my body feels. It induces nausea on occasion, but mostly it just completely fucks over any sense of immersion. I'm constantly getting mixed signals and that sucks.

    For you, clearly the current level of VR is great. Good for you.



    I'm not dismissing VR headsets, I even said that I want one, its just the price point is too high for the limited benefits. If I could get a decent headset for under £100, I'd get one right now.

    What I am saying is that a headset is not a straight up improvement over a monitor. It offers some benefits, like 3D vision, 6DOF and whatever else you want to say. It also offers some downsides, like being uncomfortable, putting pressure on your neck, inducing nausea, blocking your view of the real world.

    So for me, the benefits of a VR headset do not outweight the downsides.

    For you, clearly they do. Good for you.



    Does my arguement at least make sense to you now?

    Please remember that I haven't dismissed your arguments and opinions. I like hearing them, you are clearly a fan of VR and it's useful to me to hear your opinions, because I have a different opinion. It would at least be polite of you to attempt to understand my opinions, rather than just getting defensive and aggressive.


    I know, I know, this is the internet, maybe that's too much to ask.

    I read your posts. You made claims that simply weren't true. You opinion isn't in question. It's when you state your opinion as if it's fact using using these untrue claims is in dispute.

    Just out of curiosity, why would the (£100) price point for a VR HMD and controllers be less than the price of a standard, decent monitor? Did you spend £100 on your monitor? I know I spent much more than that on my monitor. This makes no sense.

    And how do you think full 3D visuals and full 6DOF isn't a straight up improvement? I would say standing and interacting with a 3D environment is the epitome of a straight up improvement over sitting in a chair staring at a 30" monitor. This also makes no sense.

    Your argument makes even less sense to me now. You sure you've actually put on a VR headset within the last 6 years?




    Scot
  • TwistedSister77TwistedSister77 Member EpicPosts: 1,144
    VR- Not sure I like my sight and hearing 100% locked into a video game.  I kinda like to multitask and be aware of my real life surroundings.

    Also, slashing a sword or casting spells a million times sounds really exhausting vs. keystroke.  Really drives home how repetitive gameplay truly is.
    ultimateduck[Deleted User]goozmaniacheyane
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,534
    VR- Not sure I like my sight and hearing 100% locked into a video game.  I kinda like to multitask and be aware of my real life surroundings.

    Also, slashing a sword or casting spells a million times sounds really exhausting vs. keystroke.  Really drives home how repetitive gameplay truly is.
    I would be inclined to agree, but then again, beatsaber is a huge hit, which is swinging a sword hundreds of times to music.

    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • ultimateduckultimateduck Member EpicPosts: 1,309
    VR- Not sure I like my sight and hearing 100% locked into a video game.  I kinda like to multitask and be aware of my real life surroundings.

    Also, slashing a sword or casting spells a million times sounds really exhausting vs. keystroke.  Really drives home how repetitive gameplay truly is.

    It's a weird thing to get used to.
  • Veiled_lightVeiled_light Member UncommonPosts: 855
    Utinni said:


    Been 16 years since the last one I liked released, after WoW the genre died.



    If by died you mean has more players than ever before, nailed it!
    They're not playing MMOs, they're playing ORPGs.
  • methuselah69methuselah69 Newbie CommonPosts: 4
    edited September 2020
    Hello everyone I am new here so be kind until I figure out how to assimilate and integrate.  :) I'm looking for people like yourselves and especially anyone discussing this particular topic. There is a game currently in development that I think has the potential to be something different for MMO and or RPG lovers. It is supposed to be a fully persistent world and your "characters" continue to function even when you are logged off. It is actually being called a "MMOSimulation.

    The "Role play" element is a kind of "optional" aspect of the game and would be up to the players to decide how they want to play themselves and or their communities. I am looking for people to take part in our community but I'm unsure about the rules here ( i looked but could not find them ) so for now I will not say the name.

    Being totally open world and open plot narrative there is no channel no path no quests or any traditional rpg elements that take place on the actual game level. All of the RP will be done by the players in chat/discords/group websites, etc. I think it has the potential to be refreshing change for RPers especially the old school text/chat type players. You wont choose a archetype or use a character creation tool to make a mage or a battlebeast and it is not typical first person view. Does something like this interest anyone?

    Maybe I should also add that the backstory/lore/narrative is being disclosed as part of an ongoing ARG which is the prelude to the game as well as the testing phase which is to start this month.
  • cameltosiscameltosis Member LegendaryPosts: 3,847

    If you read my posts


    I said on a scale of 0% VR to 100% VR, im looking for 15-20%.

    It's a sliding scale, and each of us is going to have a minimum level where it starts to feel comfortable and immersive.

    For me, the current level is too low, I hate the disconnect between what my eyes are seeing and what my body feels. It induces nausea on occasion, but mostly it just completely fucks over any sense of immersion. I'm constantly getting mixed signals and that sucks.

    For you, clearly the current level of VR is great. Good for you.



    I'm not dismissing VR headsets, I even said that I want one, its just the price point is too high for the limited benefits. If I could get a decent headset for under £100, I'd get one right now.

    What I am saying is that a headset is not a straight up improvement over a monitor. It offers some benefits, like 3D vision, 6DOF and whatever else you want to say. It also offers some downsides, like being uncomfortable, putting pressure on your neck, inducing nausea, blocking your view of the real world.

    So for me, the benefits of a VR headset do not outweight the downsides.

    For you, clearly they do. Good for you.



    Does my arguement at least make sense to you now?

    Please remember that I haven't dismissed your arguments and opinions. I like hearing them, you are clearly a fan of VR and it's useful to me to hear your opinions, because I have a different opinion. It would at least be polite of you to attempt to understand my opinions, rather than just getting defensive and aggressive.


    I know, I know, this is the internet, maybe that's too much to ask.

    I read your posts. You made claims that simply weren't true. You opinion isn't in question. It's when you state your opinion as if it's fact using using these untrue claims is in dispute.

    Just out of curiosity, why would the (£100) price point for a VR HMD and controllers be less than the price of a standard, decent monitor? Did you spend £100 on your monitor? I know I spent much more than that on my monitor. This makes no sense.

    And how do you think full 3D visuals and full 6DOF isn't a straight up improvement? I would say standing and interacting with a 3D environment is the epitome of a straight up improvement over sitting in a chair staring at a 30" monitor. This also makes no sense.

    Your argument makes even less sense to me now. You sure you've actually put on a VR headset within the last 6 years?





    I keep talking about gameplay and the levels of immersion offered, you keep talking about visuals alone. So, no point continuing on with this discussion.


    On the £100 price point, it's because of the intended purpose. I only want a VR headset for two genres: racing games and space sims. Basically just for two games: project cars and elite: dangerous.

    I'm willing to spend £100 to improve the experience in those two genres, but its just not worth spending more considering the limited uses. £100 to make ~150 hours of gameplay a year better, sounds like a good deal for me. But £600 or more? Just doesn't seem like good value, I could spend that money elsewhere and get a much better return.


    With a monitor, yup, i spent more (~£220), but a better monitor makes all my computer usage better, at the moment roughly 12 hours a day. So, £220 to improve 1000s of hours worth of computer time, well worth the money.



    AS for the 3d visuals / 6dof not being a straight up improvement? I'll say it again, seeing as u seemed to have missed it the first few times:

    There are benefits - 3d and 6dof
    There are also downsides - nausea, not being able to see the real world, extra weight on my head, sweating.


    Hence, not a direct improvement.
    Gdemami
    Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 44,057
    Hello everyone I am new here so be kind until I figure out how to assimilate and integrate.  :) I'm looking for people like yourselves and especially anyone discussing this particular topic. There is a game currently in development that I think has the potential to be something different for MMO and or RPG lovers. It is supposed to be a fully persistent world and your "characters" continue to function even when you are logged off. It is actually being called a "MMOSimulation.

    The "Role play" element is a kind of "optional" aspect of the game and would be up to the players to decide how they want to play themselves and or their communities. I am looking for people to take part in our community but I'm unsure about the rules here ( i looked but could not find them ) so for now I will not say the name.

    Being totally open world and open plot narrative there is no channel no path no quests or any traditional rpg elements that take place on the actual game level. All of the RP will be done by the players in chat/discords/group websites, etc. I think it has the potential to be refreshing change for RPers especially the old school text/chat type players. You wont choose a archetype or use a character creation tool to make a mage or a battlebeast and it is not typical first person view. Does something like this interest anyone?

    Maybe I should also add that the backstory/lore/narrative is being disclosed as part of an ongoing ARG which is the prelude to the game as well as the testing phase which is to start this month.
    Welcome to the forums!

    Despite four paragraphs I really can't figure what this game is all about, roleplaying, mumble mumble, open world, mumble mumble, ARG, mumble mumble and so forth.

    Unless you are just trying to get free advertising this site won't care if you mention the game's name or post a link to it's website. (Unless it's a referral link which is a no no)

    Anywho, welcome again and as they say in the rooms, keep coming back.

    :)
    YashaXUngood

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332
    Devs are not making mmorpg's,they are making a bunch of zones with quests,fake looking worlds and no real ROLE playing mechanics.So basically they are VERY from actually making a mmorpg.

    Watched a stream on TESO today because i quit playing that in the first hour so wanted to see if I missed anything....nope.

    Also watched a stream on Conan,again quit that game in first hour and wanted to see if I missed anything...nope.What i did see was a very buggy building system with glitches like floating players or when you walk up stairs you glitch into the stairs as you walk up.Also the various tiles need to be bought through expansion packs,so much for wanting to explore some cool building with nice texture sets/tiles.

    So yet another day ,same old nothing to see here.Watched the trailers for Fast n Furious 9 looks good,heard there was a spat between the Rock and Vinny.Too bad the few movies i want to watch are not out yet.So guess I'll spark up some old game,Likely Langrisser 2.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • methuselah69methuselah69 Newbie CommonPosts: 4
    Kyleran said:
    Welcome to the forums!

    Despite four paragraphs I really can't figure what this game is all about, roleplaying, mumble mumble, open world, mumble mumble, ARG, mumble mumble and so forth.

    Unless you are just trying to get free advertising this site won't care if you mention the game's name or post a link to it's website. (Unless it's a referral link which is a no no)

    Anywho, welcome again and as they say in the rooms, keep coming back.

    :)
    I wasn't sure about the rules so thanks for that! Mumble mumble. lol,  sorry was trying to explain when the link would do just fine.  :-)
    https://www.seed-project.io/
    A very ambitious project!
    Ungood
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,534
    Kyleran said:
    Welcome to the forums!

    Despite four paragraphs I really can't figure what this game is all about, roleplaying, mumble mumble, open world, mumble mumble, ARG, mumble mumble and so forth.

    Unless you are just trying to get free advertising this site won't care if you mention the game's name or post a link to it's website. (Unless it's a referral link which is a no no)

    Anywho, welcome again and as they say in the rooms, keep coming back.

    :)
    I wasn't sure about the rules so thanks for that! Mumble mumble. lol,  sorry was trying to explain when the link would do just fine.  :-)
    https://www.seed-project.io/
    A very ambitious project!
    Hi! Welcome to the forums.

    Look cool, I'll put that link in my vast list of MMO's that I am keeping my eye on, and when you get the game into a playable state, let me know, I'll consider buying/investing/playing it. 

    [Deleted User]
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • TokkenTokken Member EpicPosts: 3,649
    Did the success of WOW kill the genre?
    Ungood

    Proud MMORPG.com member since March 2004!  Make PvE GREAT Again!

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 32,936
    Tokken said:
    Did the success of WOW kill the genre?
    The success of World of Warcraft colored the decision making process for developers and they sought to replicate what Blizzard did instead of making their own way.

    Can't blame them as who wants to put in millions of dollars on an untried idea only to have it fail.


    UngoodMendelYashaX
    Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb." 

    Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w


    Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547

    Try the "Special Edition." 'Cause it's "Special." https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/64878/?tab=description

    Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo 
  • TheocritusTheocritus Member LegendaryPosts: 10,014
    Tokken said:
    Did the success of WOW kill the genre?

    WoW brought millions of players to the genre that may not have come otherwise...So in taht regard, it was a boon.....On the other hand, WoW was so successful that game makers were no longer willing to take risks and tried to follow WoWs formula...As a result we got many bland MMOs that basically felt the same.....Also the emergence of the mobile market was a huge factor....It now became easier to make games and apps at a fraction of the cost and the profits were every bit as good if not better...There simply is little to no incentive to make MMOs anymore.
    Kyleran
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,534
    Tokken said:
    Did the success of WOW kill the genre?
    Sorta, but not in the way that people might think.

    The biggest influence that WoW had was on the corporate end, not the development end. Ergo the Bean Counters got involved as people saw that these games could make 150 MILLION monthly, so the goal obviously became.. how can we tap that money making system.

    Ideally, it's not the developers or even the publishers that were the problem, it's the Speculators, the people that are putting money into these games and expecting some insane ROI like they saw from WoW.

    This type of direction demand placed not by developers but by the speculators, can be seen in things like Loot-Boxes, and F2P/P2W game systems as well.

    This is also why when Fortnight became a hit.. Suddenly everything and anything had a Battle Arena.. why? Did the Developers all say "OMG, a BR would make our game great" or do you think the Investment Bankers were like "OMG Fortnight made billions! Make us billions Bitch and put that shit in our game!"

    So.. in some ways.. yes.. but not in the way that it's the developers to blame. However, also this made it so that new Developers have become lazy, they know what worked, so if they try anything new (Even if it not really that new, just not well known), they are out of their element, like a Scuba diver in the Desert.
    GdemamiMendel
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • MendelMendel Member LegendaryPosts: 5,609
    Ungood said:
    Tokken said:
    Did the success of WOW kill the genre?
    Sorta, but not in the way that people might think.

    The biggest influence that WoW had was on the corporate end, not the development end. Ergo the Bean Counters got involved as people saw that these games could make 150 MILLION monthly, so the goal obviously became.. how can we tap that money making system.

    Ideally, it's not the developers or even the publishers that were the problem, it's the Speculators, the people that are putting money into these games and expecting some insane ROI like they saw from WoW.

    This type of direction demand placed not by developers but by the speculators, can be seen in things like Loot-Boxes, and F2P/P2W game systems as well.

    This is also why when Fortnight became a hit.. Suddenly everything and anything had a Battle Arena.. why? Did the Developers all say "OMG, a BR would make our game great" or do you think the Investment Bankers were like "OMG Fortnight made billions! Make us billions Bitch and put that shit in our game!"

    So.. in some ways.. yes.. but not in the way that it's the developers to blame. However, also this made it so that new Developers have become lazy, they know what worked, so if they try anything new (Even if it not really that new, just not well known), they are out of their element, like a Scuba diver in the Desert.

    There's definitely a lack of incentive for being creative in gaming.  There is a tried and true formula, and few are willing to stray from that model.  The financial investors certainly want mostly to replicate Blizzard's financial success.  If the game is good, fine.

    Realistically, what developer has the creative chops to actually do something new and innovative?  It appears that all the inventive spark has left the industry, or at least taken a back seat to the bigger financial picture.  I suspect that innovators are flocking to crowdfunding as a method not to make a game, but as a way to fund some future project, i.e., a technological get-rich-quick scheme.



    UngoodGdemami

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • ultimateduckultimateduck Member EpicPosts: 1,309
    edited November 2020
    I keep talking about gameplay and the levels of immersion offered, you keep talking about visuals alone. So, no point continuing on with this discussion.


    On the £100 price point, it's because of the intended purpose. I only want a VR headset for two genres: racing games and space sims. Basically just for two games: project cars and elite: dangerous.

    I'm willing to spend £100 to improve the experience in those two genres, but its just not worth spending more considering the limited uses. £100 to make ~150 hours of gameplay a year better, sounds like a good deal for me. But £600 or more? Just doesn't seem like good value, I could spend that money elsewhere and get a much better return.


    With a monitor, yup, i spent more (~£220), but a better monitor makes all my computer usage better, at the moment roughly 12 hours a day. So, £220 to improve 1000s of hours worth of computer time, well worth the money.



    AS for the 3d visuals / 6dof not being a straight up improvement? I'll say it again, seeing as u seemed to have missed it the first few times:

    There are benefits - 3d and 6dof
    There are also downsides - nausea, not being able to see the real world, extra weight on my head, sweating.


    Hence, not a direct improvement.


    I'm not talking about visuals alone, I'm talking about the overall experience with world interaction and controllers. Besides, it's a head mounted display vs a standard monitor. These are both visual tools. The difference is, one uses a mouse and keyboard (not immersive) and the other uses hand controllers that allow hand and arm articulation (very immersive).

    Your use still doesn't make sense for a £100 price tag. If you want to play those games on a monitor, it's still going to cost more than £100 because any decent monitor is more than £100. If you want a really good non-VR experience you will need 3 monitors, a steering wheel kit and HOTAs. You're already well over £1500 into a rig, monitors and various controllers and you're going to say $399 is just too much to pay for a completely immersive visual that can do much more than just let you sit in a chair.

    Most modern headsets weigh about 1lb... that isn't "weight on the head" to the point of it being a "con" and if you're sweating while sitting and played ED or AC, well you need to get more exercise. Nausea goes away after three or four uses, also not a con. You can see the real world via AR pass through or by simply lifting the headset.





  • methuselah69methuselah69 Newbie CommonPosts: 4
    Ungood said:
    Kyleran said:
    Welcome to the forums!

    Despite four paragraphs I really can't figure what this game is all about, roleplaying, mumble mumble, open world, mumble mumble, ARG, mumble mumble and so forth.

    Unless you are just trying to get free advertising this site won't care if you mention the game's name or post a link to it's website. (Unless it's a referral link which is a no no)

    Anywho, welcome again and as they say in the rooms, keep coming back.

    :)
    I wasn't sure about the rules so thanks for that! Mumble mumble. lol,  sorry was trying to explain when the link would do just fine.  :-)
    https://www.seed-project.io/
    A very ambitious project!
    Hi! Welcome to the forums.

    Look cool, I'll put that link in my vast list of MMO's that I am keeping my eye on, and when you get the game into a playable state, let me know, I'll consider buying/investing/playing it. 

    They just had their first closed playtest but they say next year there will be tons of playtesting. The ARG associated with the game is really heating up though. Crazy stuff!
Sign In or Register to comment.