SoulBound Studios Letter in Chronicles of Elyria Lawsuit: 'Changing Direction Following a Business R

System · October 2020

SoulBound Studios Letter in Chronicles of Elyria Lawsuit: 'Changing Direction Following a Business Reevaluation is Not Illegal.' | MMORPG.com

The ongoing lawsuit regarding the sudden shut down of Chronicles of Elyria received some additional information today in the form of letters from the laywers of Soulbound Studios and Xsolla.

Read the full story here

Erinak1 · October 2020

From the letters it seems that they didn't really offer up any real evidence as to any of their allegations or at least not enough to be deemed worthy of consideration. It seems an odd way to conduct business in the case of trying to find a resolution before a lengthy court case ensues.

cheyane · October 2020

If they win the civil suit is there a possibility that criminal charges can then be brought against him? He must have swindled these folk.

Wellspring · October 2020

parrotpholk said:

cheyane said:

If they win the civil suit is there a possibility that criminal charges can then be brought against him? He must have swindled these folk.

The problem I have with the people who gave 20k to this crackpot is that if you read what they were trying to make and the funding and release timeline then something had to click in your head to know it was impossible.

The idea was a good one but there was zero chance without significant backing this was going to see the light of day. If you lost 20k then I am sorry but then I am thinking if you can throw 20k at a game that may or may not be made then do you really miss it?

The lawsuit is spilled milk and thats about it.

That's no excuse. Impossible things get made all of the time with very little backing.

Google, Facebook, Amazon, Apple, and Disney all started out in a garage.

kitarad · October 2020

Don't have to empathize with anyone if there was fraud here then there should be a case for it. I don't care about how stupid people were to give this asshole money what I want to see is him paying for what he did.

Kyleran · October 2020

Wellspring said:

parrotpholk said:

cheyane said:

If they win the civil suit is there a possibility that criminal charges can then be brought against him? He must have swindled these folk.

The problem I have with the people who gave 20k to this crackpot is that if you read what they were trying to make and the funding and release timeline then something had to click in your head to know it was impossible.

The idea was a good one but there was zero chance without significant backing this was going to see the light of day. If you lost 20k then I am sorry but then I am thinking if you can throw 20k at a game that may or may not be made then do you really miss it?

The lawsuit is spilled milk and thats about it.

That's no excuse. Impossible things get made all of the time with very little backing.

Google, Facebook, Amazon, Apple, and Disney all started out in a garage.

None of those were crowd funded.

xpsync · October 2020

Wellspring said:

parrotpholk said:

cheyane said:

If they win the civil suit is there a possibility that criminal charges can then be brought against him? He must have swindled these folk.

The problem I have with the people who gave 20k to this crackpot is that if you read what they were trying to make and the funding and release timeline then something had to click in your head to know it was impossible.

The idea was a good one but there was zero chance without significant backing this was going to see the light of day. If you lost 20k then I am sorry but then I am thinking if you can throw 20k at a game that may or may not be made then do you really miss it?

The lawsuit is spilled milk and thats about it.

That's no excuse. Impossible things get made all of the time with very little backing.

Google, Facebook, Amazon, Apple, and Disney all started out in a garage.

True but it's also like saying a guy won millions at the casino, that hits the spotlight in news, and we know about it, but we don't read about the plethora of people whom lost everything to a gambling addiction, and then news like this fuels them further to feed their addiction and lose everything, but hey this guy won millions. Overall they are all rare situations. Life is like poker not-everyone is dealt a great hand. It's all luck, right place, right time, doing the thing.

Kyleran · October 2020

kitarad said:

Don't have to empathize with anyone if there was fraud here then there should be a case for it. I don't care about how stupid people were to give this asshole money what I want to see is him paying for what he did.

What exactly did he do? He spent $8M of funds freely given trying to build a game ... and failed... which is not illegal.

Now, if someone can prove he took the money and ran, fine, but I actually don't think this is the case, I do believe he earnestly tried but was ignorant of the fact he never really had a chance.

Hindsight is 20/20.

foxgirl · October 2020

If you give 20k or whatever to some studio for what amounts to a pipedream then you are taking the chance on getting burned. It's basically playing the stock market. If there's fraud involved then he should get his money back, but if not then it's on his head for being stupid/short-sighted/whatever, not the studios.

BrotherMaynard · October 2020

Wellspring · October 2020

The good thing about the lawsuit is that it will hopefully hold Soulbound accountable for any wrong doing (if any was done). If the court looks at all the evidence and decides that all parties acted legally, then so be it. But lets not dismiss the suit before it even gets started.

If you haven't taken the time yet, I recommend reading the full letters linked in the article. The short snippets quoted in the article is only a very small portion of the content.

Taking a look at this section in the Soulbound letter:

(2)Soulbound videos have not been misleading.

Soulbound provided severalvideos of gameplay footage and of other subjectmatter, includingthroughout 2017. We are therefore unsure as to which video your letter references. However, it is our understanding that all videos thatwere purported to contain gameplay footage containedfootage of the then-current state of gameplay. AlthoughSoulbound also provided videos for its backers that did not contain gameplay footage, it does not appear that any of those videos purported to be gameplay footage, and those videos were instead industry standard lore videos that a reasonable consumer would not believe to constitute gameplay footage. However, as we do not know which video to which your letter refers, we cannot provide a more detailed response. Please let us know specifically whichone of Soulbound’s variousvideosyour letter references, and we would be happy to discuss that specific video.

Does anyone know which videos may have been misleading?

At first, I thought the Princess Bride combat video could be one that was thought to be misleading. I remember hearing a rumor that it was all scripted animations, and not actual combat gameplay. But after looking closer, Soulbound did have a playable demo at Pax East that year where sword combat just like the video was playable.

Slapshot1188 · October 2020

Wellspring said:

The good thing about the lawsuit is that it will hopefully hold Soulbound accountable for any wrong doing (if any was done). If the court looks at all the evidence and decides that all parties acted legally, then so be it. But lets not dismiss the suit before it even gets started.

If you haven't taken the time yet, I recommend reading the full letters linked in the article. The short snippets quoted in the article is only a very small portion of the content.

Taking a look at this section in the Soulbound letter:
(2)Soulbound videos have not been misleading.

Soulbound provided severalvideos of gameplay footage and of other subjectmatter, includingthroughout 2017. We are therefore unsure as to which video your letter references. However, it is our understanding that all videos thatwere purported to contain gameplay footage containedfootage of the then-current state of gameplay. AlthoughSoulbound also provided videos for its backers that did not contain gameplay footage, it does not appear that any of those videos purported to be gameplay footage, and those videos were instead industry standard lore videos that a reasonable consumer would not believe to constitute gameplay footage. However, as we do not know which video to which your letter refers, we cannot provide a more detailed response. Please let us know specifically whichone of Soulbound’s variousvideosyour letter references, and we would be happy to discuss that specific video.

Does anyone know which videos may have been misleading?

At first, I thought the Princess Bride combat video could be one that was thought to be misleading. I remember hearing a rumor that it was all scripted animations, and not actual combat gameplay. But after looking closer, Soulbound did have a playable demo at Pax East that year where sword combat just like the video was playable.

My understanding is that all of those "demos" were stand alone and not compatible with the actual game. This is why they could never let the backers go download and test the jousting demo etc...

I also believe they may be talking about the high roller/backer videos where Caspien and Co shared "inside" info and teased how far along the game was.

But who knows, it was a shit show from start to finish.

kitarad · October 2020

Kyleran said:

kitarad said:

Don't have to empathize with anyone if there was fraud here then there should be a case for it. I don't care about how stupid people were to give this asshole money what I want to see is him paying for what he did.

What exactly did he do? He spent $8M of funds freely given trying to build a game ... and failed... which is not illegal.

Now, if someone can prove he took the money and ran, fine, but I actually don't think this is the case, I do believe he earnestly tried but was ignorant of the fact he never really had a chance.

Hindsight is 20/20.

He should not have any problem showing where the money went then if he did nothing wrong.

They vilified Brad McQuaid for what he did why the double standards. It's a simple thing show where the money went.

Erinak1 · October 2020

kitarad said:

Kyleran said:

kitarad said:

Don't have to empathize with anyone if there was fraud here then there should be a case for it. I don't care about how stupid people were to give this asshole money what I want to see is him paying for what he did.

What exactly did he do? He spent $8M of funds freely given trying to build a game ... and failed... which is not illegal.

Now, if someone can prove he took the money and ran, fine, but I actually don't think this is the case, I do believe he earnestly tried but was ignorant of the fact he never really had a chance.

Hindsight is 20/20.

He should not have any problem showing where the money went then if he did nothing wrong.

They vilified Brad McQuaid for what he did why the double standards. It's a simple thing show where the money went.

The letter states they already had an independent accountant go through their books and found nothing wrong. $8 million sounds a lot and it is but games cost a lot of money and $8m doesn't go very far. I'm not standing up for the guy as I haven't really followed the CoE story in much detail prior to it going bust but given how long it was in development and stuff, $8 million spent doesn't seem totally absurd, assuming they were telling the truth about number of employees and such.

xpsync · October 2020

This is a prime example of the no accountability, even when caught with the hand in the cookie jar (your 8 million, minus 20k for props to make it look like there is work being done) there's still no accountability as all that's going to happen is they'll send stupid chit like this he said she said bs back and forth for years on end.

I mean i hope the f not but...

Wellspring · October 2020

kitarad said:

Kyleran said:

kitarad said:

Don't have to empathize with anyone if there was fraud here then there should be a case for it. I don't care about how stupid people were to give this asshole money what I want to see is him paying for what he did.

What exactly did he do? He spent $8M of funds freely given trying to build a game ... and failed... which is not illegal.

Now, if someone can prove he took the money and ran, fine, but I actually don't think this is the case, I do believe he earnestly tried but was ignorant of the fact he never really had a chance.

Hindsight is 20/20.

He should not have any problem showing where the money went then if he did nothing wrong.

They vilified Brad McQuaid for what he did why the double standards. It's a simple thing show where the money went.

From Soulbound's letter:

"Further, the money provided by backers, including the founder of Soulbound, to develop CoE has beenproperly spent on appropriate game development expenditures, as determined by an independent firm that conducted a forensic accounting of Soulbound’s expenditures."

I wonder if the Discord lawyers will get an opportunity to view the results of that audit.

Mendel · October 2020

Wellspring said:

kitarad said:

Kyleran said:

kitarad said:

Don't have to empathize with anyone if there was fraud here then there should be a case for it. I don't care about how stupid people were to give this asshole money what I want to see is him paying for what he did.

What exactly did he do? He spent $8M of funds freely given trying to build a game ... and failed... which is not illegal.

Now, if someone can prove he took the money and ran, fine, but I actually don't think this is the case, I do believe he earnestly tried but was ignorant of the fact he never really had a chance.

Hindsight is 20/20.

He should not have any problem showing where the money went then if he did nothing wrong.

They vilified Brad McQuaid for what he did why the double standards. It's a simple thing show where the money went.

From Soulbound's letter:

"Further, the money provided by backers, including the founder of Soulbound, to develop CoE has beenproperly spent on appropriate game development expenditures, as determined by an independent firm that conducted a forensic accounting of Soulbound’s expenditures."

I wonder if the Discord lawyers will get an opportunity to view the results of that audit.

Or to do their own audit.

kitarad · October 2020

An independent audit. Shouldn't the disputing sides decide on one not the Defendent saying an independent audit. Bet my left breast since I don't have a left nut that this audit is about as reliable as the Wirecard one.

Kyleran · October 2020

kitarad said:

Kyleran said:

kitarad said:

Don't have to empathize with anyone if there was fraud here then there should be a case for it. I don't care about how stupid people were to give this asshole money what I want to see is him paying for what he did.

What exactly did he do? He spent $8M of funds freely given trying to build a game ... and failed... which is not illegal.

Now, if someone can prove he took the money and ran, fine, but I actually don't think this is the case, I do believe he earnestly tried but was ignorant of the fact he never really had a chance.

Hindsight is 20/20.

He should not have any problem showing where the money went then if he did nothing wrong.

They vilified Brad McQuaid for what he did why the double standards. It's a simple thing show where the money went.

It would seem that he can as per this excerpt from the full response letter. (Bold, underline emphasis was actually in the letter itself)

”Further, the money provided by backers, including the founder of Soulbound, to develop CoE has been properly spent on appropriate game development expenditures, as determined by an independent firm that conducted a forensic accounting of Soulbound’s expenditures. ”

If true, pretty much all claims against Soulbound are null and void.

Xsolla is taking the expected position of being a payment processor only, and while not stated I’m sure they’ll later claim their refund policy was only applicable for games which had already been finished and available for actual purchase, the moneies paid by the COE backers are viewed as donations.

Wellspring · October 2020

The thing I find interesting from the Soulbound letter, is how adamant they are that Caspian is still working on the game and that it will actually be completed as promised.

In short: Soulbound is still operational, still developing CoE, and never actually shuttered. It would be helpful, therefore, if you could explain how your client(s) have been harmed by the decision to continue development of the game, rather than shutting it down. At present, it intends to complete the development of the game.

In this regard, while Soulbound’s current financial situation required the company to terminate substantially all of their employees, the founder of Soulbound has, since the end of March, continued to work on CoE on an unpaid basis as his only work and plans to continue working on CoE until Soulbound is able to deliver CoE, with the elements promised to backers. Soulbound additionally is working with others on a temporary basis where the work is outside the scope of the founder’s skillset.

Do they really expect us to believe that Caspian is now going to complete the game as promised, by himself?!

This defense makes me wonder... if Soulbound was truthful about no longer being operational would they backers have a legit claim?

Gdemami · October 2020

Wellspring said:
if Soulbound was truthful about no longer being operational would they backers have a legit claim?

Highly unlikey - failing to develop a game is not illegal. The money were donated and it was clear the result of development is uncertain and unguaranteed.

Thing is tough, if you say you are still developing the game, it makes any possible plaintiff much more difficult.

Like I said before, the case has no legs to stand on...

Wizardry · October 2020

I assume this whole ordeal started with the dude who spent 20k.I would be more interested on that partnership between dude and the Lawyers.Are they doing this on commission or straight up charging dude for their services?

The reason I am wondering is because lawyers are so scummy,they KNOW the actual LAW and if they don't they decipher the proper documentation to find the answers.

So I am very curious as to how this Lawyer THOUGHT they would win this case,what wording or law have I missed?

I have to try and decipher what is going on so my assumption is the lawyers figured Soulbound has lot's of that money left over and was trying to bail with all the money which could be considered a SCAM/fraud,an assumption that NO INTENT was ever in place to actually make a game.So i THINK that is what they are basing their case on.

So then they would need FACTUAL evidence that shows Soulbound still has lot's of that money AND that they have shut down.So i am still not sure that you could simply "change your mind" and go from shut down to open again just because your being sued,no Judge is going to buy that.

So do they have money still and did they actually state they were shut down,trying to make off with the money?If BOTH are true that could be called fraud and could garner a heft fine on top of returning money.

Problem #2 :Even if this was in fact FRAUD it is typical that only the LLC takes the hit and not the owner,depends how it was setup.Sooooo many factors,so then how does the judge work this,I assume Jeremy would then be tried for Fraud outside and above the LLC.I am pretty sure that you cannot escape hiding behind a LLC when Fraud is in play,however that law was mainly to protect creditors.So as you can see this keeps going down the line,where does it end,can jeremy actually be sued for fraud and then what>>bankruptcy?LOL,yep it keeps going on and on lol.

Slapshot1188 · October 2020

Kyleran said:

It would seem that he can as per this excerpt from the full response letter. (Bold, underline emphasis was actually in the letter itself)

”Further, the money provided by backers, including the founder of Soulbound, to develop CoE has been properly spent on appropriate game development expenditures, as determined by an independent firm that conducted a forensic accounting of Soulbound’s expenditures. ”

So I haven't read the letters and maybe it's addressed, but usually when these kinds of things are stated you give the name of the forensic accounting firm. For all we know it's his father in-laws company or his neighbor. I mean, it's kind of strange that he so suddenly ran out of money and had to shutter his doors and layoff his whole staff with no notice, but had the funding to hire lawyers and forensic accountants prior to even being sued?

That said, I do not really think he stole money outright. Now whether he paid his family a ton of money to do little to nothing is another story and that will only be proven or disproven when they open the books.

Amathe · October 2020

Ok, nothing I am about to say disagees with the positions that CoE is fraud run by a skeezball.

And I don't believe CoE is actually being developed.

But it's easy for CoE to pretend that it is.

And if we erect an iron curtain of regulation to prevent that, it might harm tiny legit indy companies like, for example, Hello Games, who have made two great games with teams of about four people.

There needs to be a way not to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Slapshot1188 · October 2020

Rhoklaw said:

If SBS is found excused from all recourse after failing to deliver the promised "product" to backers. All this does is destroy any future crowdfunding for games. Which means we'll be left with nothing but horseshit bureaucratic P2W garbage. So if you thought the MMO or online gaming industry was dead now, well, it will certainly be sealed tight in it's coffin after this.

I agree and I also believe there is a difference when you raise generic money for a project (some would call donations) and when you sell very specific products on your website.

If these companies just put a big red DONATE button that let people actually DONATE it would be much simpler and clearer. But they won't do that because the real cash is in the sales of pixel-goods.

HolyAvengerOne · October 2020

Not having the full text of what was submitted kinda defeats any potential attempt at inteligibly framing this one here.

*shrug*

Just sounds like more BS.

Howdy, Stranger!

SoulBound Studios Letter in Chronicles of Elyria Lawsuit: 'Changing Direction Following a Business R

Comments

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Howdy, Stranger!

Quick Links

SoulBound Studios Letter in Chronicles of Elyria Lawsuit: 'Changing Direction Following a Business R

Comments

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV