Management, money people, and marketing suck.

Quizzical · January 2021

The game industry is a highly competitive market, with not just many AAA developers, but also many smaller indie developers. Very low budget indie games, or even things slapped together by some random person in his spare time, can get published on Steam (among other places) and be available for much of the world to buy. Anyone who thinks they have a better way to make quality games that can turn a good profit and has the money to make just a single game to prove his point is welcome to do so. All it takes is one huge success to inspire lots of copycats.

Iselin · January 2021

People need heavy marketing in order to know what to believe. Stop picking on the folks that perform such a valuable function in society.

Here... in case you didn't know why you should drink Bud:

Image: https://arc-anglerfish-washpost-prod-washpost.s3.amazonaws.com/public/SYQEDV6XXI6P7I2TCKJWR6D5QA.png

Mendel · January 2021

Iselin said:

People need heavy marketing in order to know what to believe. Stop picking on the folks that perform such a valuable function in society.
<image removed>

We will obey our corporate overlords. We will purchase the products they endorse. We think their prices are fair. They have our best interests at heart. We will... hey! Wait a minute!

Sorry about that. I must be channeling Nelson Muntz in my sleep.

Theocritus · January 2021

It seems too often that management and higher seem to be way overpaid and contribute little. Game companies might work a little different than the real world though.

Slapshot1188 · January 2021

Mendel said:

Iselin said:

People need heavy marketing in order to know what to believe. Stop picking on the folks that perform such a valuable function in society.
<image removed>
We will obey our corporate overlords. We will purchase the products they endorse. We think their prices are fair. They have our best interests at heart. We will... hey! Wait a minute!

Sorry about that. I must be channeling Nelson Muntz in my sleep.

Wait until UBI takes root and we sit at home and take what they send us. Wall-E here we come!

Amathe · January 2021

People who come to work nursing grievances against "suits" and " college boys" typically get fired. Occasionally it turns out they were some undiscovered talent, but far more likely they were right where they belong.

Scot · January 2021

What gets me though is did a game like CP 2077 need an advertising budget roughly twice the cost of it's development? There were adverts on TV, who were they aimed at, non-gamer parents and spouses? Because there was no one on here, no one I know anywhere who is a gamer who did not realise it was coming out. I thought getting in Reeves was a waste of money, but then the TV ads as well, do they think gamers live under a stone?

delete5230 · January 2021

Zegaloth said:

Amathe said:

People who come to work nursing grievances against "suits" and " college boys" typically get fired. Occasionally it turns out they were some undiscovered talent, but far more likely they were right where they belong.

Just got done with the firing process of someone who had a chip on their shoulder about management.

Would cry about how management was targeting him, and when I told him they were right, and that he did need to actually do his job (I said it nicer but for brevity's sake), he turned around and cried TO management that myself, and another co worker were bullying him.

He was just deflecting, and playing the victim to whomever had any grievance with him, when all he needed to do was just accept that he was in the wrong, and try to improve.

I never thought I would meet someone who didn't know how to sweep or mop a floor, let alone be incapable of learning how to do it over 6 months.

delete5230 said:

That's the problem. mmorpg's need to be made with out management.

I understand, they need money.... but the FACT IS they suck.

I don't need a lecture on how important the money is.... I know that.

Indie games suck too.... why ?.... Because they use managers just the same.

Answer:
I don't have one. But one thing for sure management sucks.

This may sound bold..... But I need to be in charge. You will get an mmorpg that all of you would like, with the exception of the free-to-play freeloaders.

In regards to OP: I agree with you that marketing, and upper end fat cats like CEO Bobby Kotick only harm game development, but good managers are incredibly valuable. They provide direction to a project, they keep people on task, and they can be great mediators for employee conflicts. A good manager is a leader, and good leadership yields quality work. It is incredibly important for employee morale to have solid leadership.

Of course just like bad employees, there are bad managers, but that doesn't mean that all managers are bad.

The first part,
Sounds like a front line supervisors job than over bloated management. More often than not they are needed depending on the complexities of the work and the amount of workers and their responsibilities.... However their often needed but counterintuitive to the grand scheme of huge profit bloat.

The story you gave is irrelevant to the fat cats. I to was a front line supervisor for many years. In my experience anyone about to get fired will always pull any string they can to save themselves from a sinking ship.... more so now than beck in the 90s.

Second part,
Good managers could be incredibly valuable ?... Sure ! When their are few not 20 that are not needed......Were talking about ONE PRODUCT, ONE VIDEO GAME, NOT LARGE SCALE PRODUCTION.

Give developers parameters and let them work. Managers see the budget and could purchase what is needed for ONE PRODUCT, then later readjust for unforeseeable.

One product !

Here I am talking about management.
Make the game first !..... at the very least the basic shell first. Fat management could be millions into a project before it gets off the ground on a basic idea, when they know less than me of the ONE product.

Important:
Driven by money..... WITH ZERO PASSION.

Developers first then managers.
Blizzard Entertainment has been screwing up lately. Why?... poor over bloated management with zero passion. All the passion people are fired.

Po_gg · January 2021

delete5230 said:

Give developers parameters and let them work. Managers see the budget and could purchase what is needed for ONE PRODUCT, then later readjust for unforeseeable.

One product !

Product? That's sadly the past.

We're now in the middle of the shift which aims to re-brand games from products into services... with everything ugly it will bring along.

(You can already see the dropping quality, predatory monetisation, the rise of the non-gamers, mobiles taking up the lead, etc.)

It's connected to your notion in the shift it will bring on the development side, since there are differences between developing a game as a product, and one as a service.

I hate to ruin your day, but management will gain even more weight in the future.

KnightFalz · January 2021

delete5230 said:

This may sound bold..... But I need to be in charge. You will get an mmorpg that all of you would like, with the exception of the free-to-play freeloaders.

How will your teams stay focused without managers? How will your teams be kept in budget without accountants? How will you attract investors without marketers?

To be in charge you have to be able to take charge. How can you do that when you've already stated you don't have the answers.

olepi · January 2021

Let's turn it around. Let's say I have $100 million to invest.

I want to see a track record for the company, a track record for the management, and a track record for the developers. Obviously, I want the biggest return on my investment, so I'm going to pick a company/manager/developer that has been successful in the past.

I also want to see a track record of projections, both financial and calendar, that show the company/managers/developers can be trusted when they say it will take X years and cost Y dollars, with a return of Z.

I'm also going to want to see quarterly reports on progress, costs, market size, etc, to make sure the project is on track.

In the gaming context, Star Citizen is exactly what I would avoid. Their projections are so bad, they quit even trying to say when they will be done. They are blowing hundreds of millions with no product in sight, and no realistic projections of the return on my investment.

Mendel · January 2021

olepi said:

Let's turn it around. Let's say I have $100 million to invest.

I want to see a track record for the company, a track record for the management, and a track record for the developers. Obviously, I want the biggest return on my investment, so I'm going to pick a company/manager/developer that has been successful in the past.

I also want to see a track record of projections, both financial and calendar, that show the company/managers/developers can be trusted when they say it will take X years and cost Y dollars, with a return of Z.

I'm also going to want to see quarterly reports on progress, costs, market size, etc, to make sure the project is on track.

In the gaming context, Star Citizen is exactly what I would avoid. Their projections are so bad, they quit even trying to say when they will be done. They are blowing hundreds of millions with no product in sight, and no realistic projections of the return on my investment.

Absolutely right. Investors don't look at the ideas behind the game. They look at the business making the game. It's probably why so many crowdfunded developers have such a difficult time finding investments.

olepi · January 2021

Mendel said:

olepi said:

Let's turn it around. Let's say I have $100 million to invest.

I want to see a track record for the company, a track record for the management, and a track record for the developers. Obviously, I want the biggest return on my investment, so I'm going to pick a company/manager/developer that has been successful in the past.

I also want to see a track record of projections, both financial and calendar, that show the company/managers/developers can be trusted when they say it will take X years and cost Y dollars, with a return of Z.

I'm also going to want to see quarterly reports on progress, costs, market size, etc, to make sure the project is on track.

In the gaming context, Star Citizen is exactly what I would avoid. Their projections are so bad, they quit even trying to say when they will be done. They are blowing hundreds of millions with no product in sight, and no realistic projections of the return on my investment.

Absolutely right. Investors don't look at the ideas behind the game. They look at the business making the game. It's probably why so many crowdfunded developers have such a difficult time finding investments.

Actually, the investors should look at the idea behind the development.

One of the worst I know of is the Iridium system by Motorola. It was a satellite phone system that allowed anybody anywhere to talk on the phone. Motorola launched 64 satellites, before a VP asked to see the phone.

It was the size of a cinderblock, and doesn't work indoors. $7 a minute.

Motorola wasted FIVE BILLION before figuring out it wasn't going to work.

Mendel · January 2021

olepi said:

Mendel said:

olepi said:

Let's turn it around. Let's say I have $100 million to invest.

I want to see a track record for the company, a track record for the management, and a track record for the developers. Obviously, I want the biggest return on my investment, so I'm going to pick a company/manager/developer that has been successful in the past.

I also want to see a track record of projections, both financial and calendar, that show the company/managers/developers can be trusted when they say it will take X years and cost Y dollars, with a return of Z.

I'm also going to want to see quarterly reports on progress, costs, market size, etc, to make sure the project is on track.

In the gaming context, Star Citizen is exactly what I would avoid. Their projections are so bad, they quit even trying to say when they will be done. They are blowing hundreds of millions with no product in sight, and no realistic projections of the return on my investment.

Absolutely right. Investors don't look at the ideas behind the game. They look at the business making the game. It's probably why so many crowdfunded developers have such a difficult time finding investments.

Actually, the investors should look at the idea behind the development.

One of the worst I know of is the Iridium system by Motorola. It was a satellite phone system that allowed anybody anywhere to talk on the phone. Motorola launched 64 satellites, before a VP asked to see the phone.

It was the size of a cinderblock, and doesn't work indoors. $7 a minute.

Motorola wasted FIVE BILLION before figuring out it wasn't going to work.

Could have mentioned New Coke, too.

The product concept absolutely needs legs to make it successful. The investment stuff about the corporate structure and past performance is what investors make their decisions on. Product concepts offer that first enticement to a potential investor.

Sovrath · January 2021

delete5230 said:

Zegaloth said:

Amathe said:

People who come to work nursing grievances against "suits" and " college boys" typically get fired. Occasionally it turns out they were some undiscovered talent, but far more likely they were right where they belong.

Just got done with the firing process of someone who had a chip on their shoulder about management.

Would cry about how management was targeting him, and when I told him they were right, and that he did need to actually do his job (I said it nicer but for brevity's sake), he turned around and cried TO management that myself, and another co worker were bullying him.

He was just deflecting, and playing the victim to whomever had any grievance with him, when all he needed to do was just accept that he was in the wrong, and try to improve.

I never thought I would meet someone who didn't know how to sweep or mop a floor, let alone be incapable of learning how to do it over 6 months.

delete5230 said:

That's the problem. mmorpg's need to be made with out management.

I understand, they need money.... but the FACT IS they suck.

I don't need a lecture on how important the money is.... I know that.

Indie games suck too.... why ?.... Because they use managers just the same.

Answer:
I don't have one. But one thing for sure management sucks.

This may sound bold..... But I need to be in charge. You will get an mmorpg that all of you would like, with the exception of the free-to-play freeloaders.

In regards to OP: I agree with you that marketing, and upper end fat cats like CEO Bobby Kotick only harm game development, but good managers are incredibly valuable. They provide direction to a project, they keep people on task, and they can be great mediators for employee conflicts. A good manager is a leader, and good leadership yields quality work. It is incredibly important for employee morale to have solid leadership.

Of course just like bad employees, there are bad managers, but that doesn't mean that all managers are bad.

The first part,
Sounds like a front line supervisors job than over bloated management. More often than not they are needed depending on the complexities of the work and the amount of workers and their responsibilities.... However their often needed but counterintuitive to the grand scheme of huge profit bloat.

The story you gave is irrelevant to the fat cats. I to was a front line supervisor for many years. In my experience anyone about to get fired will always pull any string they can to save themselves from a sinking ship.... more so now than beck in the 90s.

Second part,
Good managers could be incredibly valuable ?... Sure ! When their are few not 20 that are not needed......Were talking about ONE PRODUCT, ONE VIDEO GAME, NOT LARGE SCALE PRODUCTION.

Give developers parameters and let them work. Managers see the budget and could purchase what is needed for ONE PRODUCT, then later readjust for unforeseeable.

One product !

Here I am talking about management.
Make the game first !..... at the very least the basic shell first. Fat management could be millions into a project before it gets off the ground on a basic idea, when they know less than me of the ONE product.

Important:
Driven by money..... WITH ZERO PASSION.

Developers first then managers.
Blizzard Entertainment has been screwing up lately. Why?... poor over bloated management with zero passion. All the passion people are fired.

You know, you and Wizardy should get together and just make a damn game. You both seem to know soooo much about it without ever making one.

But you know talk is just as good right?

Aren't all those kickstarted games about passion? hmmm and yet we don't see as many actually launch. Wonder why?

Sovrath · January 2021

Scot said:

What gets me though is did a game like CP 2077 need an advertising budget roughly twice the cost of it's development? There were adverts on TV, who were they aimed at, non-gamer parents and spouses? Because there was no one on here, no one I know anywhere who is a gamer who did not realise it was coming out. I thought getting in Reeves was a waste of money, but then the TV ads as well, do they think gamers live under a stone?

I would offer that "non-gamers" also buy video games. Unless you want to categorize everyone who plays a video game as a "gamer."

Not everyone who plays a video game here and there follows video game news.

Or even knows about what other games are in the genre. I've told the story before where I was waiting to try Elder Scrolls Online and I started talking to the others in line (because 2+ hours ... ) and most of them only knew World of Warcraft and Star Wars the Old Republic.

Then we have people who play video games at my office but they seem to know what's popular and nothing about "what has gone before" let alone other genres.

I bet they wanted to grab anyone who had the inclination to play a video game/and or buy a console. But just because someone has a console doesn't mean they use it religiously. They might touch it once per month if that.

olepi · January 2021

A unique problem with game development is that like music and movies, it has to be fun, or entertaining. Software that does a task just has to work. But a game has to be fun to succeed.

But who gets to say what is fun and what isn't?

All managers know that once you bring in the creative types, things get complicated.

Sovrath · January 2021

Xodic said:

olepi said:

A unique problem with game development is that like music and movies, it has to be fun, or entertaining. Software that does a task just has to work. But a game has to be fun to succeed.

But who gets to say what is fun and what isn't?

All managers know that once you bring in the creative types, things get complicated.

That's why they use a methodical process instead of a creative process.
Going down a checklist of things that have been proven to work is less risky than trying to implement an original vision.

But then, don't you get "same old same old?"

All the cries that "we're not getting anything new!"

It would seem that there is an art to balancing "art" with all the technical stuff.

AlBQuirky · January 2021

Sovrath said:

Xodic said:

olepi said:

A unique problem with game development is that like music and movies, it has to be fun, or entertaining. Software that does a task just has to work. But a game has to be fun to succeed.

But who gets to say what is fun and what isn't?

All managers know that once you bring in the creative types, things get complicated.

That's why they use a methodical process instead of a creative process.
Going down a checklist of things that have been proven to work is less risky than trying to implement an original vision.

But then, don't you get "same old same old?"

All the cries that "we're not getting anything new!"

It would seem that there is an art to balancing "art" with all the technical stuff.

Manager: "Can you folks creatively do these marketing aspects for our game?"

Arglebargle · January 2021

olepi said:

Mendel said:

olepi said:

Let's turn it around. Let's say I have $100 million to invest.

I want to see a track record for the company, a track record for the management, and a track record for the developers. Obviously, I want the biggest return on my investment, so I'm going to pick a company/manager/developer that has been successful in the past.

I also want to see a track record of projections, both financial and calendar, that show the company/managers/developers can be trusted when they say it will take X years and cost Y dollars, with a return of Z.

I'm also going to want to see quarterly reports on progress, costs, market size, etc, to make sure the project is on track.

In the gaming context, Star Citizen is exactly what I would avoid. Their projections are so bad, they quit even trying to say when they will be done. They are blowing hundreds of millions with no product in sight, and no realistic projections of the return on my investment.

Absolutely right. Investors don't look at the ideas behind the game. They look at the business making the game. It's probably why so many crowdfunded developers have such a difficult time finding investments.

Actually, the investors should look at the idea behind the development.

One of the worst I know of is the Iridium system by Motorola. It was a satellite phone system that allowed anybody anywhere to talk on the phone. Motorola launched 64 satellites, before a VP asked to see the phone.

It was the size of a cinderblock, and doesn't work indoors. $7 a minute.

Motorola wasted FIVE BILLION before figuring out it wasn't going to work.

Iridium was taken over by the military, and was considered the best field communicator available in the Iraq War, by a country mile. Every unit wanted an Iridium phone.

It just wasn't a commercial success, but the military implementation was stellar.

Arglebargle · January 2021

Talking to an old Origin game-designing friend, I brought up Robert Garriott (Origin CFO), who many others told me was a penny pinching, hard hearted bastid. The friend opined that Origin would not have lasted two years as a company without him, as few people there had any sense of developmental scale or management. Robert was apparently the guy where the buck stopped. And he would definitely stop it, if the developers went off the deep end.

Iselin · January 2021

Arglebargle said:

Talking to an old Origin game-designing friend, I brought up Robert Garriott (Origin CFO), who many others told me was a penny pinching, hard hearted bastid. The friend opined that Origin would not have lasted two years as a company without him, as few people there had any sense of developmental scale or management. Robert was apparently the guy where the buck stopped. And he would definitely stop it, if the developers went off the deep end.

I think some here confuse just plain management which is very much needed - especially project management - to produce anything on budget and on time with the added level of management and boards of directors that get superimposed over them when game companies hit the big time and/or become publicly traded.

One of those is an absolute necessity and the other one more often than not does meddle with disastrous consequences.

delete5230 · January 2021

Quizzical said:

delete5230 said:
This may sound bold..... But I need to be in charge. You will get an mmorpg that all of you would like, with the exception of the free-to-play freeloaders.

If you were put in charge of a large-budget MMORPG, you might learn why it's a lot harder than you think. Hopefully you would. The alternative is that you'd fail spectacularly and blame it on others.

OK lets play with this one,
Question is "I was put in charge by large-budget".

That would mean I have a higher management giving me parameters to work with. That would be too much fat already....I would get rid of that fat. Basically getting rid of the people that brought me on.

A big problem is fat-management don't look at themselves as fat EVER. Also their usually FIXED INTO THAT POSITION.... So the very problem is already set in motion.

Parameters to work with ?
Walking into the interview, this would be discussed. The list would be long, awful and extremely binding. In order to get the job I would have to concede to the already fat.

Business as usual.

This is why managements suck !!!

Important:
In order for me to be in charge. I would have to BE THE MANAGMENT and work directly with the investors.

Fantasy you say ?.....Yes, this is how it works, But it's also the problem. This is why we can't get a complicated to build mmorpg. The already fat management are the only ones allowed into investors meetings. We have a circle jerk of a bad system, and will never get an mmorpg.

In order to get an mmorpg, I would be alone in front of investors, explaining how a prototype game would be needed first....Spend money only on developers and designers first.

All budget goes into design. Spend years without management bloat and already high cost !!!..... Nothing wrong with a head supervisor, basically a floor person that's focused on creating the game...... BUILD THE GAME FIRST. Rebuild and re-tool as needed under lower cost.

Fantasy ?...... Yes !...... But until then no game.

Ungood · January 2021

olepi said:

Let's turn it around. Let's say I have $100 million to invest.

I want to see a track record for the company, a track record for the management, and a track record for the developers. Obviously, I want the biggest return on my investment, so I'm going to pick a company/manager/developer that has been successful in the past.

I also want to see a track record of projections, both financial and calendar, that show the company/managers/developers can be trusted when they say it will take X years and cost Y dollars, with a return of Z.

I'm also going to want to see quarterly reports on progress, costs, market size, etc, to make sure the project is on track.

In the gaming context, Star Citizen is exactly what I would avoid. Their projections are so bad, they quit even trying to say when they will be done. They are blowing hundreds of millions with no product in sight, and no realistic projections of the return on my investment.

Ok, lets look at this for a moment.

One of the things I have learned is that Management does not get things done, leadership gets things done.

Case in point, one of the companies I worked for, the Owner of the Company was a licensed Engineer, and even tho he had a few other engineers working for him, he also overlooked the projects, and ran the numbers as well, he didn't just manage the firm, he worked there, with and among the staff. He would be on site with us, and talk with us, with a very hands on approach on what was going down. He put more value on us foremen than any other company I worked for, because, as he said to me "We lead the crew, not him, we make this happen" so when he wanted things done, he turned to us, and we were knee deep in the dirt with everyone else, it was not like I got to walk around in nice boots and a suit, I was right there busting my ass with everyone else, and I was leading them at the same time.

This is why the idea of Management simply existing as a managerial role is not a good one, there is no reason why the person who leads the Character Animation and Modeling Department is not also a Character Animator, they are just also entrusted to lead their department and hit deadlines, or give reasonable deadlines to get a task done, and having that hands on knowledge should make them better at doing so.

Same to be said for all departments. Ideally with the one person in charge, who not only leads the project, but also provides the vision for the product.

Sure, when that person is not a good leader things go ass sideways, and just because someone might be a great designer does not mean they are a good manager, but that is something that should be worked out by the people working on the project, the person who is the head developer might realize they can't manage the staff, that is not their skillset. Sometimes it is, sometimes it's not.

But at the end of the day, the necessity for management for the sake of management is not a hard standard, it is fluid and should be treated as such.

TwistedSister77 · January 2021

delete5230 said:

Quizzical said:

delete5230 said:
This may sound bold..... But I need to be in charge. You will get an mmorpg that all of you would like, with the exception of the free-to-play freeloaders.

If you were put in charge of a large-budget MMORPG, you might learn why it's a lot harder than you think. Hopefully you would. The alternative is that you'd fail spectacularly and blame it on others.

OK lets play with this one,
Question is "I was put in charge by large-budget".

That would mean I have a higher management giving me parameters to work with. That would be too much fat already....I would get rid of that fat. Basically getting rid of the people that brought me on.

A big problem is fat-management don't look at themselves as fat EVER. Also their usually FIXED INTO THAT POSITION.... So the very problem is already set in motion.

Parameters to work with ?
Walking into the interview, this would be discussed. The list would be long, awful and extremely binding. In order to get the job I would have to concede to the already fat.

Business as usual.

This is why managements suck !!!

Important:
In order for me to be in charge. I would have to BE THE MANAGMENT and work directly with the investors.

Fantasy you say ?.....Yes, this is how it works, But it's also the problem. This is why we can't get a complicated to build mmorpg. The already fat management are the only ones allowed into investors meetings. We have a circle jerk of a bad system, and will never get an mmorpg.

In order to get an mmorpg, I would be alone in front of investors, explaining how a prototype game would be needed first....Spend money only on developers and designers first.

All budget goes into design. Spend years without management bloat and already high cost !!!..... Nothing wrong with a head supervisor, basically a floor person that's focused on creating the game...... BUILD THE GAME FIRST. Rebuild and re-tool as needed under lower cost.

Fantasy ?...... Yes !...... But until then no game.

Why is management always fat? I know a ton of "management" and "marketers" in startups that make crap pay and dedicate long hours... for a risky venture. Very entrepreneurial folks. They are the definition of lean pay, they sacrifice salary for the hope of a pot of gold at the end of the brutal rainbow.

Also, investors are going to want at least a bare bones accounting department and HR .. you also need operations folks for the office space... maybe security... etc.. etc.. so yeah... fantasy land.

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