Valve, Capcom, Zenimax and More Fined by EU Commission for 'Geo-Blocking' Games | MMORPG.com

System · January 2021

Valve, Capcom, Zenimax and More Fined by EU Commission for 'Geo-Blocking' Games | MMORPG.com

Five Publishers, Bandai Namco, Capcom, Zenimax, Focus Home Interactive, Koch Media along with Valve have been fined by the European Commission for breaching EU antitrust laws.

Read the full story here

Iselin · January 2021

Is this about preventing people from buying the game in EU countries where it's sold cheaper to then use in their own EU country?

rojoArcueid · January 2021

First they went digital to control how people buy games, now they geo-block to control where people buy games. Fuck every single one of them. The fines should be higher per company. I hope the US does the same.

Aeander · January 2021

rojoArcueid said:

First they went digital to control how people buy games, now they geo-block to control where people buy games. Fuck every single one of them. The fines should be higher per company. I hope the US does the same.

The companies weren't even in the wrong here. Game prices vary by nation to account for income disparity. The equivalent of $60 USD wouldn't fly in most poor Slavic countries.

It's a simple fact that different countries have differing levels of prosperity, and that even includes varying countries within the EU. Why shouldn't Valve or Capcom be able to offer lower prices to a poorer region without losing regular sales to a more prosperous region like France or Germany?

Banning geo-blocking is just going to discourage offering regional prices that help worldwide gamers who otherwise wouldn't be able to afford the hobby. Valve isn't going to drop prices in its core markets to match. It's going to raise prices in non-core markets.

Sovrath · January 2021

rojoArcueid said:

First they went digital to control how people buy games, now they geo-block to control where people buy games. Fuck every single one of them. The fines should be higher per company. I hope the US does the same.

Really? Because "going digital" is what actually allowed me to buy a game that I couldn't find anywhere in my area. And I live in a major city.

Want to play game ... can't find it anywhere ... what do I do?

Oh I know buy it and download and wham, problem solved.

I can't speak to "geoblocking" but is it really to keep people from not buying from them? 'cause I think that's implausible. "Let's block them from spending money in our shop because that will teach them!"

But perhaps I'm wrong and don't know the whole story so what is it?

rojoArcueid · January 2021

@Aeander, @Sovrath

I know what you mean, and that is true. The problem is that these companies use THAT as the excuse to flat out block sales in certain poorer regions instead of adjusting the prices there as well. EDIT: Me and my friends are directly affected by this so i'm against this practice.

Slapshot1188 · January 2021

Aeander said:

rojoArcueid said:

First they went digital to control how people buy games, now they geo-block to control where people buy games. Fuck every single one of them. The fines should be higher per company. I hope the US does the same.

The companies weren't even in the wrong here. Game prices vary by nation to account for income disparity. The equivalent of $60 USD wouldn't fly in most poor Slavic countries.

It's a simple fact that different countries have differing levels of prosperity, and that even includes varying countries within the EU. Why shouldn't Valve or Capcom be able to offer lower prices to a poorer region without losing regular sales to a more prosperous region like France or Germany?

Banning geo-blocking is just going to discourage offering regional prices that help worldwide gamers who otherwise wouldn't be able to afford the hobby. Valve isn't going to drop prices in its core markets to match. It's going to raise prices in non-core markets.

I personally believe that private companies should be free to charge whoever they want, whatever they want despite the fact that I personally find the entire concept of price discrimination repugnant.

ElonMusk · January 2021

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Renoaku · January 2021

This is part I don't understand about Law.

IF Steam is a USA Server / Service.

Then why do they have to follow 3rd world country's laws?

Why not just ban Steam from EU region all together, since obviously Europe is allowed to tell U.S based company what they can and can't do?
-----------------------------------------------------------

All they should have to do legally though is sell the game for $60 U.S for example, and any IP address that is from another country charge and convert the currency to the respected values of USD?----- Also they care about this but fail to take care of Google for violating it's own Lootbox policfy and letting China Apps scam people on Lootbox / not disclose odds like Net Ease.

Wizardry · January 2021

I am simply way too tired right now to figure out what is going on here.
Steams statement sounds legit but of course it would lol.
So am i to assume the commission feels that by locking out certain regions this allows someone like Steam and partners to make sure only the highest priced regions have the product for sale,is that what this is about?

I would say if that is the issue then yeah it could be a problem.Steam argument was sort of lame and not factual at all claiming it would cause higher prices ..lol as if trying to convince someone..who?

Now of course MANY a person is correct in saying the commission is just looking for a cash grab every so often and knit picking when there are much bigger issues in the gaming market.

I still remember the biggest scandal of my time,Hasbro told stores what to sell their products for and if they did not agree they got no products.So of course it forced the prices of Hasbro products to skyrocket and therefor more profits.Here si the kicker,the government made a DEAL with Hasbro if Hasbro gave free games/items to charity in return allow Hasbro to come out looking like the good guy.

Posters above miss the whole point.It doesn't matter where your business is based.If your going to do business in someone else's backyard you abide by THEIR rules...simple.The ENTIRE world has to abide by rules/laws,making it sound like "MY business,,i can do as i please,which is total nonsense.

Vrika · January 2021

Slapshot1188 said:

Aeander said:

rojoArcueid said:

First they went digital to control how people buy games, now they geo-block to control where people buy games. Fuck every single one of them. The fines should be higher per company. I hope the US does the same.

The companies weren't even in the wrong here. Game prices vary by nation to account for income disparity. The equivalent of $60 USD wouldn't fly in most poor Slavic countries.

It's a simple fact that different countries have differing levels of prosperity, and that even includes varying countries within the EU. Why shouldn't Valve or Capcom be able to offer lower prices to a poorer region without losing regular sales to a more prosperous region like France or Germany?

Banning geo-blocking is just going to discourage offering regional prices that help worldwide gamers who otherwise wouldn't be able to afford the hobby. Valve isn't going to drop prices in its core markets to match. It's going to raise prices in non-core markets.

I personally believe that private companies should be free to charge whoever they want, whatever they want despite the fact that I personally find the entire concept of price discrimination repugnant.

The company's right to charge who they want and what they want should be balanced by customer's right to do what they want with their purchase.

This law does not forbid different prices. It forbids the company from going out of their way to place artificial geographic limits that their product may only be used in certain parts of Europe.

Vrika · January 2021

Renoaku said:

This is part I don't understand about Law.

IF Steam is a USA Server / Service.

Then why do they have to follow 3rd world country's laws?

Why not just ban Steam from EU region all together, since obviously Europe is allowed to tell U.S based company what they can and can't do?
-----------------------------------------------------------

All they should have to do legally though is sell the game for $60 U.S for example, and any IP address that is from another country charge and convert the currency to the respected values of USD?

Companies must obey laws of every nation they sell to.

If they did not have to do that, you'd see big companies relocating their online sales to some third world country that would give them most lenient legislation.

Blastoize · January 2021

Glad i live in EU, they still need to punish them for €=$ and punish every single day until the change it.

Gorwe · January 2021

What about Koei and their absurd prices in some regions(like forcing almost EU prices in Latin America)? It is a different phenomenon, but one that also deserves attention.

Regardless, this is a complex topic and if I were to say my thoughts on this? Oh...I want so desperately that I can just say "let people purchase their games where they want", but I simply can't. Because such a move will only lead to drastic increase of prices down the road. But this goes more into price AMOUNT rather than geoblocking.

I'm against any sort of geoblocking, censorship etc. Because I have yet to see a fair application of those tools. So, there, I'm AGAINST geoblocking, but people mustn't be shortsighted about what a witchhunt on geoblocking would produce.

My solution? Better security and prevention of sites like g2a from selling gray market games. If we solve that, we won't need to talk about geoblocking. Because this is just about g2a and other resellers cutting profit of companies, innit?

Ultimately? Break the law and face the consequences. Now, whether the law is just or proper...that's another box of nails.

ASpartan · January 2021

I'm an American and I live and work in China getting paid on the local scale and I must use the US dollar cost because I can only do English. Believe me I hate having to drop 20%+ of my net pay on games so while I can appreciate the geo pricing concept I really think it should be language based and I really, really get sick geo licence shit for different titles. A game is OK in the country but can not buy it from an IP in another country. My account is American I pay the American price fuck my IP address.

Quizzical · January 2021

Let's post a concrete example of the sort of thing that is in dispute here:

https://store.steampowered.com/itemstore/372000/browse/?filter=All

That's where you buy the item mall currency for Tree of Savior. As you can see, they have different prices for different regions. Buying 100 TP costs $9 in North America or Europe. It only costs $6 in South America or Southeast Asia.

So why do they do that? They know that people in relatively wealthier portions of the world are willing to pay higher prices that would be more difficult for people in poorer areas to afford. They presumably concluded this would make them more revenue than charging either the higher or lower prices everywhere.

As Tree of Savior is an online game, they can restrict the purchases by server. If you're in the United States, you can buy currency for the Southeast Asia server at the lower price and play on the Southeast Asia server. If you find the game too laggy for your taste, it's your own fault for choosing to play on the Southeast Asia server.

Offline, single-player games can't restrict regional pricing by server access like that. Rather, if they charge different prices for different regions, then people in wealthier areas who buy a key from a poorer region would have the full functionality with a cheaper key. And if they can do that, then people can get the poorer regions' lower prices worldwide. That's why publishers wish to limit where keys can be used, as otherwise.

If that sort of regional pricing is illegal, then they're not going to charge the lower prices everywhere. They're going to charge the higher prices everywhere. That is, people in poorer parts of the world will see much higher prices for a lot of the games that they want to buy. And that will mean that they can't play nearly as many games.

This is not about making it so that some parts of the world cannot access a game at all. Publishers would have no objection to people buying keys at the higher prices that they charge for wealthier areas and using those keys in a poorer area where it could have been bought for cheaper.

It sounds like this particular action is for differential pricing specifically within Europe. But some countries in Europe are a lot wealthier than others. If publishers can't legally charge a lower price in Romania than in Germany, then they'll have to require Romanians to pay German prices or go without the game. Who benefits from that?

Slapshot1188 · January 2021

Quizzical said:

Let's post a concrete example of the sort of thing that is in dispute here:

https://store.steampowered.com/itemstore/372000/browse/?filter=All

That's where you buy the item mall currency for Tree of Savior. As you can see, they have different prices for different regions. Buying 100 TP costs $9 in North America or Europe. It only costs $6 in South America or Southeast Asia.

So why do they do that? They know that people in relatively wealthier portions of the world are willing to pay higher prices that would be more difficult for people in poorer areas to afford. They presumably concluded this would make them more revenue than charging either the higher or lower prices everywhere.

As Tree of Savior is an online game, they can restrict the purchases by server. If you're in the United States, you can buy currency for the Southeast Asia server at the lower price and play on the Southeast Asia server. If you find the game too laggy for your taste, it's your own fault for choosing to play on the Southeast Asia server.

Offline, single-player games can't restrict regional pricing by server access like that. Rather, if they charge different prices for different regions, then people in wealthier areas who buy a key from a poorer region would have the full functionality with a cheaper key. And if they can do that, then people can get the poorer regions' lower prices worldwide. That's why publishers wish to limit where keys can be used, as otherwise.

If that sort of regional pricing is illegal, then they're not going to charge the lower prices everywhere. They're going to charge the higher prices everywhere. That is, people in poorer parts of the world will see much higher prices for a lot of the games that they want to buy. And that will mean that they can't play nearly as many games.

This is not about making it so that some parts of the world cannot access a game at all. Publishers would have no objection to people buying keys at the higher prices that they charge for wealthier areas and using those keys in a poorer area where it could have been bought for cheaper.

It sounds like this particular action is for differential pricing specifically within Europe. But some countries in Europe are a lot wealthier than others. If publishers can't legally charge a lower price in Romania than in Germany, then they'll have to require Romanians to pay German prices or go without the game. Who benefits from that?

Of course the oddity of that is there are many rich people in all parts of the world just as there are poor people in all parts of the world. There are rich Romanians who would pay less than poor Germans. There are poor Americans who would pay more than rich Brazilians. I find these group based discriminations to be repugnant in all forms be it Country, Race, Religion, Sex... all the same to me. That said, they are a private company so I think they SHOULD be allowed to do what they want with their pricing.

Iselin · January 2021

Torval said:

Iselin said:

Is this about preventing people from buying the game in EU countries where it's sold cheaper to then use in their own EU country?

Yes, it is exactly that. This likely will effectively eliminate regional pricing for the EU.

We have this here in the Americas. Some Central and South American countries can buy keys cheaper than we can in the United States.

Regional pricing is (was) the industry's way of trying to provide more inclusive access to gaming entertainment. Regional locks are what they use to ensure rich countries can't exploit that system. With those locks gone the incentive to provide regional pricing is done. Companies aren't going to take a revenue loss so greedy rich gamers can exploit a loophole.

Yeah I get that the companies' reaction will lead to higher prices for those currently getting a break but I can't help but compare this to international bargain hunting for analog goods that can't be geo-locked or international bargain hunting to manufacture products in countries with lower wages.

It also makes me wonder about games that have geo-locked versions to comply with unique local censorship requirements as used to be the case (it may still be) with games displaying Nazi symbols in Germany, the biggest gaming market in the EU.

And then I start thinking about strange concepts such as "minimal viable pricing" on the assumption that the lower prices for some countries is not charity sold at a loss but that it still turns a profit... just not as much of a profit as sales in countries affluent enough to pay higher prices.

I guess I'm ambivalent about whether this is a good or bad thing. It's not black and white to me.

Gorwe · January 2021

Quizzical said:

Let's post a concrete example of the sort of thing that is in dispute here:

https://store.steampowered.com/itemstore/372000/browse/?filter=All

That's where you buy the item mall currency for Tree of Savior. As you can see, they have different prices for different regions. Buying 100 TP costs $9 in North America or Europe. It only costs $6 in South America or Southeast Asia.

So why do they do that? They know that people in relatively wealthier portions of the world are willing to pay higher prices that would be more difficult for people in poorer areas to afford. They presumably concluded this would make them more revenue than charging either the higher or lower prices everywhere.

As Tree of Savior is an online game, they can restrict the purchases by server. If you're in the United States, you can buy currency for the Southeast Asia server at the lower price and play on the Southeast Asia server. If you find the game too laggy for your taste, it's your own fault for choosing to play on the Southeast Asia server.

Offline, single-player games can't restrict regional pricing by server access like that. Rather, if they charge different prices for different regions, then people in wealthier areas who buy a key from a poorer region would have the full functionality with a cheaper key. And if they can do that, then people can get the poorer regions' lower prices worldwide. That's why publishers wish to limit where keys can be used, as otherwise.

If that sort of regional pricing is illegal, then they're not going to charge the lower prices everywhere. They're going to charge the higher prices everywhere. That is, people in poorer parts of the world will see much higher prices for a lot of the games that they want to buy. And that will mean that they can't play nearly as many games.

This is not about making it so that some parts of the world cannot access a game at all. Publishers would have no objection to people buying keys at the higher prices that they charge for wealthier areas and using those keys in a poorer area where it could have been bought for cheaper.

It sounds like this particular action is for differential pricing specifically within Europe. But some countries in Europe are a lot wealthier than others. If publishers can't legally charge a lower price in Romania than in Germany, then they'll have to require Romanians to pay German prices or go without the game. Who benefits from that?

Exactly what I alluded to. They won't keep the 6$ price for SEA etc, they are going to simply raise it to 10$. It's a very complex topic.

Slapshot1188 · January 2021

Torval said:

There is still geo-blocking according to each countries rules. This rule about geo-blocking applies to the EU member states. It is illegal for publishers and retailers to block keys bought in one state from being activated in another.

Publishers and retailers must comply with EU regulations and the laws and regulations of each country they sell in. So in Germany, for example, keys for games with blocked content cannot be sold within Germany and keys from other regions can be blocked. This I sourced from comments by Germans on another gaming site.

Regional pricing is allowed. For physical goods there are other taxes and shipping fees that can be applied. There are costs and supply limitations for physical goods being sold cheaper in other regions and transported to "richer" regions with a higher cost of living.

This isn't a "black and white" moral issue. It's just how Capitalism works. Digital goods were provided to people in poor regions to make them accessible. There is certainly profit to be made from this, however I doubt revenue projections are ever based on the buying power of the poorest regions on the planet. So, while there is profit to be made they are also making an effort to include regions which would otherwise not be economically viable in and of themselves. Big AAA publisher isn't going to spend $500M USD on a game that will sell in Baltic nations for pennies of profit per unit.

The TL;DR - Publishers can and must geoblock according to local laws. This really only affects poor nations who will get screwed over by poor (or a complete lack of) modern and relevant digital consumer laws and regulations.

Just for the record I totally and completely disagree that "poor nations" should have some kind of subsidized support for video games. I do totally agree that the companies should be able to charge whoever they want, whatever they want though. Just to me, that kind of discrimination (Oh you are from the US so you must be rich. You are from Brazil so you must be poor) is personally horrific. It's not something I want them to do, but I believe they should have the freedom to price their product however they want.

kitarad · January 2021

It isn't about rich and poor countries it is about the value of their currency. If you price something in US dollars where one US dollar is worth 100 of their currency and it then becomes very expensive then you're placing the product out of their reach. So they price it according to the value in their currency. This isn't about discrimination the way you seem to think.

Don't forget that we have our own cost of living and taxes. Of course if you take your currency and visit a country that has 5 times the value it will seem cheap but the things costs according to what the earning power is there.

Companies who do business and want to sell in those places have to price items in equivalent terms. It isn't about parity it is about value.

Slapshot1188 · January 2021

kitarad said:

It isn't about rich and poor countries it is about the value of their currency. If you price something in US dollars where one US dollar is worth 100 of their currency and it then becomes very expensive then you're placing the product out of their reach. So they price it according to the value in their currency. This isn't about discrimination the way you seem to think.

Don't forget that we have our own cost of living and taxes. Of course if you take your currency and visit a country that has 5 times the value it will seem cheap but the things costs according to what the earning power is there.

Companies who do business and want to sell in those places have to price items in equivalent terms. It isn't about parity it is about value.

That’s called an exchange rate...

Rajani_Isa · January 2021

Slapshot1188 said:

Torval said:

There is still geo-blocking according to each countries rules. This rule about geo-blocking applies to the EU member states. It is illegal for publishers and retailers to block keys bought in one state from being activated in another.

Publishers and retailers must comply with EU regulations and the laws and regulations of each country they sell in. So in Germany, for example, keys for games with blocked content cannot be sold within Germany and keys from other regions can be blocked. This I sourced from comments by Germans on another gaming site.

Regional pricing is allowed. For physical goods there are other taxes and shipping fees that can be applied. There are costs and supply limitations for physical goods being sold cheaper in other regions and transported to "richer" regions with a higher cost of living.

This isn't a "black and white" moral issue. It's just how Capitalism works. Digital goods were provided to people in poor regions to make them accessible. There is certainly profit to be made from this, however I doubt revenue projections are ever based on the buying power of the poorest regions on the planet. So, while there is profit to be made they are also making an effort to include regions which would otherwise not be economically viable in and of themselves. Big AAA publisher isn't going to spend $500M USD on a game that will sell in Baltic nations for pennies of profit per unit.

The TL;DR - Publishers can and must geoblock according to local laws. This really only affects poor nations who will get screwed over by poor (or a complete lack of) modern and relevant digital consumer laws and regulations.

Just for the record I totally and completely disagree that "poor nations" should have some kind of subsidized support for video games. I do totally agree that the companies should be able to charge whoever they want, whatever they want though. Just to me, that kind of discrimination (Oh you are from the US so you must be rich. You are from Brazil so you must be poor) is personally horrific. It's not something I want them to do, but I believe they should have the freedom to price their product however they want.

The simple fact is this : in the USA, at federal minimum wage, a sixty dollar game is roughly 10 hours of work, after taxes. 7 (or less) if you live in a state with at least a $10 minimum wage.

Depending on where one lives, that can be weeks (or more) of wage. In Brazil for example, their average monthly income this year is expected to be the equivalent of $500 USD. That’s less than what I pay for my share of rent and bills. Without the country-based price adjustments video games at $60 would be a product of adult saving up over several months.

Are you saying that because they don’t live in the US they shouldn’t be able to play video games?

Gorwe · January 2021

kitarad said:

It isn't about rich and poor countries it is about the value of their currency. If you price something in US dollars where one US dollar is worth 100 of their currency and it then becomes very expensive then you're placing the product out of their reach. So they price it according to the value in their currency. This isn't about discrimination the way you seem to think.

Don't forget that we have our own cost of living and taxes. Of course if you take your currency and visit a country that has 5 times the value it will seem cheap but the things costs according to what the earning power is there.

Companies who do business and want to sell in those places have to price items in equivalent terms. It isn't about parity it is about value.

I believe Big Mac Index addresses this very issue. Note: Big Mac costs differently in Norway and in Zimbabwe, but it's McD's intent for it to cost the same % of average salary. And that's fair imo.

Slapshot1188 · January 2021

Rajani_Isa said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Torval said:

There is still geo-blocking according to each countries rules. This rule about geo-blocking applies to the EU member states. It is illegal for publishers and retailers to block keys bought in one state from being activated in another.

Publishers and retailers must comply with EU regulations and the laws and regulations of each country they sell in. So in Germany, for example, keys for games with blocked content cannot be sold within Germany and keys from other regions can be blocked. This I sourced from comments by Germans on another gaming site.

Regional pricing is allowed. For physical goods there are other taxes and shipping fees that can be applied. There are costs and supply limitations for physical goods being sold cheaper in other regions and transported to "richer" regions with a higher cost of living.

This isn't a "black and white" moral issue. It's just how Capitalism works. Digital goods were provided to people in poor regions to make them accessible. There is certainly profit to be made from this, however I doubt revenue projections are ever based on the buying power of the poorest regions on the planet. So, while there is profit to be made they are also making an effort to include regions which would otherwise not be economically viable in and of themselves. Big AAA publisher isn't going to spend $500M USD on a game that will sell in Baltic nations for pennies of profit per unit.

The TL;DR - Publishers can and must geoblock according to local laws. This really only affects poor nations who will get screwed over by poor (or a complete lack of) modern and relevant digital consumer laws and regulations.

Just for the record I totally and completely disagree that "poor nations" should have some kind of subsidized support for video games. I do totally agree that the companies should be able to charge whoever they want, whatever they want though. Just to me, that kind of discrimination (Oh you are from the US so you must be rich. You are from Brazil so you must be poor) is personally horrific. It's not something I want them to do, but I believe they should have the freedom to price their product however they want.

The simple fact is this : in the USA, at federal minimum wage, a sixty dollar game is roughly 10 hours of work, after taxes. 7 (or less) if you live in a state with at least a $10 minimum wage.

Depending on where one lives, that can be weeks (or more) of wage. In Brazil for example, their average monthly income this year is expected to be the equivalent of $500 USD. That’s less than what I pay for my share of rent and bills. Without the country-based price adjustments video games at $60 would be a product of adult saving up over several months.

Are you saying that because they don’t live in the US they shouldn’t be able to play video games?

Are you saying that video games are some kind of basic human right and that people from one country should fund them so that others can then satisfy that basic human need?

As I have said repeatedly, I believe a company should have the freedom to charge whoever they want, whatever they want. Personally I find price discrimination to be disgusting. We aren't talking about drinking water or medicine. We are literally talking about games.

Kyleran · January 2021

In this particular fight I'm with the game developers, and if those are non reoccurring fines just a pittance in the scheme of things.

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