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Deaths in MMORPGs
vqly
Member UncommonPosts: 296
Due to the nature of video game designs from the early beginning, deaths narrative have become the norm of game mechanics, for both players killing of npcs and also other players. This is not a carebear post condemning violence or death in video games, however. I am just curious how the game would play if the game world make actual deaths rare and extremely impactful?
Sure, you can say that the respawn and resurrection mechanics make death meaningless anyway, and that's the point. It has become meaningless to video game players for the world they play in. What I am talking about is the actual narrative of deaths. When a player defeats a npc through combat, would the narrative be actually more impactful and non-immersion breaking if mobs doesn't just respawn, popping out of nowhere? What if named bosses in world or dungeons wouldn't keep being "killed" day by day or week by week, saying and doing the same thing over and over again as if they weren't previously being killed hundreds of times before, etc. But just run away or is wounded or yielded to the player (with the proper rewards for the battle), and have a recovery time before being able to be fought again?
Imagine a game world (possibly a martial art/modern world settings), where combat, including those against NPCs, does not end in death and despawn/respawn, with possibly the following features:
- combat ends in a npc or player yielding, unconscious, and/or wounded and needing recovery time as the mechanics. NPC mobs and bosses would have recovery timer where they're in hiding for recovery.
- npc deaths will exists, but will be persistent and game world changing if a npc character died, even that of a nameless mob.
- player deaths will not exists unless explicitly chosen by the player to "end of life" a particular character, with meaningful way to provide their descendants or another characters with resources gain.
- progression would still be marked by either xp earning from battles won, or skill base leveling base on actions used.
- if death was actually caused by a player, of a npc or other player, there should be major consequence to the character that does the killing, possibly forever branded as a killer, or hero with prestige of the killing, with penalties or rewards to be applied, and the history of it be recorded in the annals of history of the game forever more.
If such a game exists, will this affect players enjoyment in a positive or negative way? or not at all?
What do you guys think?
Sure, you can say that the respawn and resurrection mechanics make death meaningless anyway, and that's the point. It has become meaningless to video game players for the world they play in. What I am talking about is the actual narrative of deaths. When a player defeats a npc through combat, would the narrative be actually more impactful and non-immersion breaking if mobs doesn't just respawn, popping out of nowhere? What if named bosses in world or dungeons wouldn't keep being "killed" day by day or week by week, saying and doing the same thing over and over again as if they weren't previously being killed hundreds of times before, etc. But just run away or is wounded or yielded to the player (with the proper rewards for the battle), and have a recovery time before being able to be fought again?
Imagine a game world (possibly a martial art/modern world settings), where combat, including those against NPCs, does not end in death and despawn/respawn, with possibly the following features:
- combat ends in a npc or player yielding, unconscious, and/or wounded and needing recovery time as the mechanics. NPC mobs and bosses would have recovery timer where they're in hiding for recovery.
- npc deaths will exists, but will be persistent and game world changing if a npc character died, even that of a nameless mob.
- player deaths will not exists unless explicitly chosen by the player to "end of life" a particular character, with meaningful way to provide their descendants or another characters with resources gain.
- progression would still be marked by either xp earning from battles won, or skill base leveling base on actions used.
- if death was actually caused by a player, of a npc or other player, there should be major consequence to the character that does the killing, possibly forever branded as a killer, or hero with prestige of the killing, with penalties or rewards to be applied, and the history of it be recorded in the annals of history of the game forever more.
If such a game exists, will this affect players enjoyment in a positive or negative way? or not at all?
What do you guys think?
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Comments
I will say, things like only being able to slay a mob once, will end in a very empty game, because players are brutal psychotic murder hobo's, and always have been since Table Top, where everything was a real and permanent as the DM wanted to make it.
as for Character Death Real or Perma-Death, that has been around for a long time.
Well the game will of course need to repopulate the world quickly via some mechanics to prevent an empty world from happening, but narratively (and visually) it will either be from an npc getting back up and dusting itself off and going on about its business, or coming out of hiding, or recovered from their wounds and returning, or wildlife repopulation from wandering out of a nest or shelter, and other means.
Thinking about this, there could also be alternative to combat mechanics itself. For example, instead of having quick 30 seconds combat to the death for every encounter, combats could be something where you can disengage at any time, and xp/rewards/points are earned as you go during the combat itself, and not just only after you defeated an enemy. And if a player chooses to engage the fight to the end, it can just be a result of the npc incapacitation, like a guard is knocked out or yielded, or ran away (to be returned later).
It's a line from a quest called "The Crucible" in DDO.
I can't write down an entire game design here in a chat room so nearly impossible for me to explain a whole design built around a harsh KO penalty or even permanent death.
I think FFXi does the fake death/ko decently,it kinda feels like it really sucks when you die.
Every single scenario/idea i have thought about over the years that evolves around a very harsh penalty just doesn't seem to work because i nth end any player that is impacted negatively might not get invited to any groups.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
This makes me think of how the named orcs army and deaths are implemented in the Shadow of Mordor and Shadow of War games.
Those games have a very interesting Nemesis system, where the named NPCs (the orc lieutenants, captains, and generals ) would permanently die, but can be replaced by a random unnamed grunt getting promoted. However, the one you killed do remain permanently gone for the rest of that play through.
See: https://www.gamesradar.com/shadow-mordor-nemesis-system-amazing-how-works/
The 2nd game even let you subdue and convert the orcs to be one of your bodyguards, and I actually did get very emotionally attached to them, to the point where one dying while fighting by my side was very upsetting.
Putting aside the "death is rare" speculation for a minute, would a system like the Nemesis system work in an mmorpg? Not for every single npc in the game, but possibly a large number of named mobs? It could be that it's impactful for a *single* player game, where the game revolves a single player previous actions and history, but would it work for a multiplayers settings? If not, can it be changed to accommodate multiplayers meaningfully?
Each time you die, it adds to a number next to your level.
The more you die, the higher the number. Then people can use it as a marker of skill in a sense.
Also lower deaths mean better cinematics
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
Only of the innocent brain cells exposed.
Many players hated it. Others made Super Groups around the mechanic, like "The Debt Collectors." I never minded the mechanic as that was around 2004-5 when video games starting having players fly though them to the end, many times with some kind of "leveling buff" implemented like sleeping at night or eating.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
But let's talk about NPCs deaths for a bit too. I was just thinking about non-engaging combats and how most are kill group of mobs easily in 1 minute or less gameplay in the current states of most games, and the constant grinds of killing the same named npc over and over for drops, prestige, and progressions.
I was thinking, would a world where deaths are rare in general, including npc enemies and lores, be more immersive and engaging?
But I guess what I am really after is... can we make combats engaging? Would it help if it's not a fight to the deaths, but fight as a mean to subdue and incapacitate as a mean to complete the real objective (to get pass to another location, to arrest, prevent an action, for intimidation, items loot, etc).
Imagine a game where killing anything is HARD. City of Heroes would actually be a great settings for this. You can engage in battles, and most end result of combats is to subdue, and not kill, even when fighting goons and nameless minions.
What if we even get rid of health bars altogether? When you engage in a battle with any enemies, you fight until you can subdue them (by knocking down their stamina, mobility, and/or consciousness)... we can have visual indicator for how close you are to achieving it with animations and audio or text cues.
Maybe the game wouldn't restrict you from dealing a killing blow once your enemy is defeated, but it is a conscious decisions, and will affect your characters in some way. Witnesses can see you as a killer, you get shunned by "good faction" npcs, etc.
Then again, maybe being a virtual world and a game, it'll just end up being 90% murder hobos running around the game after a while.
There were a couple of games that had titles if you made it to a certain level without dying...i think EQ2 was one of them.....What players did was just play it extremely safe to get the title...kinda like the kids in South Park fighting boars to max level........
I once reached Rank 2(of 3), but...tbh, I liked it. When a "one chance / character" achievment is present, it adds tension, it adds gusto to otherwise potentially boring content. Kinda like "Hardcore" in Diablo games. The change to Survivor makes sense(it now resets its progress to 0 when you "die" as opposed to locking itself off at n xp), but it also deflates the experience to me.