Explains why they did such a stupid decision when they decided to turn their sandbox MMO into a theme park. While I really doubt the previous iteration of New World would compete with the likes of WoW in player numbers, it was different enough to carve out it's own niche. With the change into a theme park in an attempt to compete with WoW they are just setting themselves up to fail, just like the gazillion previous MMOs that wanted to be the WoW-killer.
With a sandbox New World it would also guarantee that it would not cannibalize (or be cannibalized by) a future Lord of the Rings-MMO, which I'm sure will be a theme park too.
Anyway Amazon Game Studios sounds like a shit place to work at. Why a smart guy like Bezos would allow such an incompetent guy like Frazzini to be the head of a potential goldmine, and why he would allow the recruitment of John "Destroyer of Games" Smedley is beyond me.
This just proves that a studio with no soul will never be successful, no matter how deep the pockets are.
I don't feel sorry for Amazon. It is the law of the market that bad behavior leads to bad business which leads to bankruptcy or liquidation. This may have been a new venture for them, but you do your due diligence, make a solid and verified business plan and put in the effort to hire qualified and preferably proven employees to oversee that business plan. They should never have hired someone like Smedley and deserve everything they get. Ignorance is unacceptable and stupidity is its own reward.
Smedley(AGS SD) was added after the initial important hires were made. The people who started the disaster remained in full control destroying everything. Smed sat back letting them do it while collecting that paycheck so he could buy his fine liqueur.
Honestly, seeing as both EQ's are still going, DCUO is thriving, Daybreak(SOE) just sold for 300 million... AGS would probably be better off with him at the very top.
I can't stand Smedly, but you are correct. The question it really boils down to is does Amazon want to take their lumps and bruises? I don't think they do, they are looking to put down a massive success and can't figure it out. A sub model with dungeons being made 2-3 times per year for the first 5 years +expansion is what is needed to be a giant. They have the money and can get the manpower, but if they blunder it because they don't want the man at the top to be anyone other than someone who worked their way up.
I've actually enjoyed a lot of their card games SOE made (both the EQ and SW were decent) and played and will to this day say that the Stargate TCG was one of the best I've ever played and their formula was perfect on the weekly tournaments. Sad they got shutdown, and can't find a link to play it online.
LOL. Yeah, that's exactly what they needed. A group of "idea guys". Those people are a dime a dozen and they're generally totally shit at their jobs because that's all they've got. Ideas. Concepts are easy to come up with, but not having any actual experience beyond that would ensure that the games would have never even come close to fruition.
Idea guys are the same people who came up with the likes of Greed Monger, Sacrament Online, Chronicles of Elyria, etc.
This goes to show you can't throw money at a game and think it'll be great. Look at New World. Lots of money thrown at it and its dog shit(some may like it but personally I couldn't stand it)
I don't feel sorry for Amazon. It is the law of the market that bad behavior leads to bad business which leads to bankruptcy or liquidation. This may have been a new venture for them, but you do your due diligence, make a solid and verified business plan and put in the effort to hire qualified and preferably proven employees to oversee that business plan. They should never have hired someone like Smedley and deserve everything they get. Ignorance is unacceptable and stupidity is its own reward.
Smedley(AGS SD) was added after the initial important hires were made. The people who started the disaster remained in full control destroying everything. Smed sat back letting them do it while collecting that paycheck so he could buy his fine liqueur.
Honestly, seeing as both EQ's are still going, DCUO is thriving, Daybreak(SOE) just sold for 300 million... AGS would probably be better off with him at the very top.
people really need to stop flexing about daybreak and the games under it. They got daybreak for a joke of a price given all the titles/assets they now control with the purchase.
D an D
Lord of the rings
All EQ's
Planet side
DCUO
H1Z1
Albion onlines company was bought for a little under half that price but for only one title. Even more amusing is the fact that Stillfront bought a casual trivia word game company for more then they spent on Albion online.
But I agree both smed and khrolan should never been allowed to work on another game after SOE.
The biggest screw up amazon made was trying to make 5 games at once. They should of focused their resources and time on one instead.
This is a general response to all the Smedley comments...
Smedley lost Sony a total of 60 million at the time they changed to Daybreak.
If this news article is accurate then the AGS devs have lost Amazon 2 billion+
60 million was probably lost within the first few months of AGS being created.
60 million was lost by Smed over the span of years.
Pretty sure Amazon would've preferred losing 60 mil over the span of 2-3 years rather than 2 billion+ over 4-6 years but who knows... it's just money, right?
@Theocritus - A fraud could not have delivered as many games as HE did many of them being played 2 decades later. A fraud could not have made top level agreements with DC, Sony, Lucasarts. You try going to any one of those companies and ask for money or a license and see how far you get. He is many different things to many people but fraud is not one of them. If anything at the time that SOE changed to Daybreak much of that 60 mil was very likely dev pay or projects providing dev pay. A fraudster that takes loses to hurt himself and his image to pay employees isn't one..
@Ridrith - Why are you assuming everyone here has no experience in the gaming industry? As Ashes of Creation, COE and others have proven you need zero industry experience/knowledge to 'attempt' to make games. That is no different than what AGS has been doing for the past 5 years... 'attempt to make games'. 3/4 of mobile hires are young people with zero industry experience and that is usually their first job.
Wasn't there some lawsuit about Lumberyard and Star Citizen? I recall reading about that.
The lawsuit was between Crytek and Star Citizen about whether Star Citizen had followed their license agreement with Crytek. Lumberyard was mentioned because Star Citizen is currently licensing Lumberyard, but Amazon/Lumberyard was never part of that lawsuit.
Also the lawsuit was settled between closed doors so it's unlikely we'll ever hear anything further about it.
I'm not sure it was settled. The last I remember hearing was that it was shelved by Crytek as they weren't sure that SC would ever be released. But I could be missing later developments.
EDIT: It looks like people posted articles on an actual settlement. I'd say that development solidifies Crytek's initial claims LOL.
Make a guy with zero experience making games the head of the games division... what could possibly go wrong?
Probably less than having guys with experience making games but no experience running a company the head of it. See Crowdfunded MMORPG record for evidence.
But that's setting the bar low... I agree.
With Amazon's resources I'm not sure how they didn't just nab the cream of the crop...
Amazon in their TV and movie production is known for being very stingy with cash and quick to cancel if no profit. They pay some of the lowest for production teams.
Make a guy with zero experience making games the head of the games division... what could possibly go wrong?
Probably less than having guys with experience making games but no experience running a company the head of it. See Crowdfunded MMORPG record for evidence.
But that's setting the bar low... I agree.
With Amazon's resources I'm not sure how they didn't just nab the cream of the crop...
Amazon in their TV and movie production is known for being very stingy with cash and quick to cancel if no profit. They pay some of the lowest for production teams.
Stingy with cash? They bought the Lord of the Rings TV rights for $250M and have a 5 season commitment of at least $1B...
We have different definitions of stingy I guess.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
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Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Make a guy with zero experience making games the head of the games division... what could possibly go wrong?
Probably less than having guys with experience making games but no experience running a company the head of it. See Crowdfunded MMORPG record for evidence.
But that's setting the bar low... I agree.
With Amazon's resources I'm not sure how they didn't just nab the cream of the crop...
Amazon in their TV and movie production is known for being very stingy with cash and quick to cancel if no profit. They pay some of the lowest for production teams.
Stingy with cash? They bought the Lord of the Rings TV rights for $250M and have a 5 season commitment of at least $1B...
We have different definitions of stingy I guess.
You pick one thing that Bezo's says better be the next Game of Thrones and bring in subs or it is gone. Also to even get the IP you got to pay big. That is suppose to be the headline show for Amazon Prime. Also the 5 season commitment has a lot of conditions on it, including viewership and production within 2 years. As soon as a show does not cut a profit they end it. Expanse is an example.
Make a guy with zero experience making games the head of the games division... what could possibly go wrong?
Probably less than having guys with experience making games but no experience running a company the head of it. See Crowdfunded MMORPG record for evidence.
But that's setting the bar low... I agree.
With Amazon's resources I'm not sure how they didn't just nab the cream of the crop...
Amazon in their TV and movie production is known for being very stingy with cash and quick to cancel if no profit. They pay some of the lowest for production teams.
Stingy with cash? They bought the Lord of the Rings TV rights for $250M and have a 5 season commitment of at least $1B...
We have different definitions of stingy I guess.
You pick one thing that Bezo's says better be the next Game of Thrones and bring in subs or it is gone. Also to even get the IP you got to pay big. That is suppose to be the headline show for Amazon Prime. Also the 5 season commitment has a lot of conditions on it, including viewership and production within 2 years. As soon as a show does not cut a profit they end it. Expanse is an example.
So you are saying that spending over $10M an Episode for TV shows like Goliath, Man in the High Castle, The Boys, etc... is "stingy"?
As for The Expanse... they picked it up and gave it a Season 4, 5 and eventually 6...
We seriously have very different definitions of stingy
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
"The leader of Amazon's games division, Mike Frazzini, seems to be central to all of this, including reports that the division head frustrates game developers working under him for simply not having a basic understanding of differences between gameplay and concept footage."
That's where gaming is today in many AAA companies, CD Project is not alone, a disconnect between those making the game and those running the company. Gaming is an entertainment business, when you look at the heads of Hollywood studios you see people who have been in that area for years.
Gaming on the other hand gets people like Mr Frazzini, who was never previously involved in the development of a game and headed Amazon's book store. I mentioned recently that EA only has one director with any gaming experience, is anyone surprised gaming consequently stumbles now and then?
I notice you're the only one to comment so far on the 'understanding the differences between game play and concept footage' quote. In addition to your comments about experience in the gaming field, I'll toss out that failing to distinguish game play and concept footage seems to have been rampant for some time now. I wonder if Frazzini simply called BS on some concept movies and asked where is the game play footage. That might fly in the face of some development professionals, enough maybe to foster a slew of employees who may have been used to that in other situations.
If that's the case, then it might be a breath of fresh air -- deliverables over potential.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
As soon as a show does not cut a profit they end it. Expanse is an example.
I'm not sure the expanse cut is based on viewership numbers in part or at all. If you've read the books you know that after Babylon's Ashes, which is the book Season 6 is based on, there is a natural break in the narrative.
The book after that, Persepolis Rising takes place about 30 years after the end of the previous book and the subject matter changes dramatically away from being about the Sol system.
Books 7, 8 and the yet to be released 9 are almost like a separate trilogy set in the same universe but separate from the first 6 books. The whole Earth v. Mars v. Belter thing is over and done with beginning with book 7.
And then there's the internal production drama that led them to cut ties with the actor playing Alex who will either be replaced or killed off for season 6.
Streaming services don't release viewer numbers so no one has any idea if the numbers have gone down or if the cut is happening for either or both of the reasons I mentioned or some other reason altogether.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Make a guy with zero experience making games the head of the games division... what could possibly go wrong?
Probably less than having guys with experience making games but no experience running a company the head of it. See Crowdfunded MMORPG record for evidence.
But that's setting the bar low... I agree.
With Amazon's resources I'm not sure how they didn't just nab the cream of the crop...
Amazon in their TV and movie production is known for being very stingy with cash and quick to cancel if no profit. They pay some of the lowest for production teams.
Stingy with cash? They bought the Lord of the Rings TV rights for $250M and have a 5 season commitment of at least $1B...
We have different definitions of stingy I guess.
You pick one thing that Bezo's says better be the next Game of Thrones and bring in subs or it is gone. Also to even get the IP you got to pay big. That is suppose to be the headline show for Amazon Prime. Also the 5 season commitment has a lot of conditions on it, including viewership and production within 2 years. As soon as a show does not cut a profit they end it. Expanse is an example.
So you are saying that spending over $10M an Episode for TV shows like Goliath, Man in the High Castle, The Boys, etc... is "stingy"?
As for The Expanse... they picked it up and gave it a Season 4, 5 and eventually 6...
We seriously have very different definitions of stingy
Paying for rights, props, effects is a lot different than paying for production staff. They like to get directors, show runners, and writers on the cheap.
As soon as a show does not cut a profit they end it. Expanse is an example.
I'm not sure the expanse cut is based on viewership numbers in part or at all. If you've read the books you know that after Babylon's Ashes, which is the book Season 6 is based on, there is a natural break in the narrative.
The book after that, Persepolis Rising takes place about 30 years after the end of the previous book and the subject matter changes dramatically away from being about the Sol system.
Books 7, 8 and the yet to be released 9 are almost like a separate trilogy set in the same universe but separate from the first 6 books. The whole Earth v. Mars v. Belter thing is over and done with beginning with book 7.
And then there's the internal production drama that led them to cut ties with the actor playing Alex who will either be replaced or killed off for season 6.
Streaming services don't release viewer numbers so no one has any idea if the numbers have gone down or if the cut is happening for either or both of the reasons I mentioned or some other reason altogether.
If it was doing well in the internal numbers it would not be shortened to just one more season. There is a lot there to work with that could have kept the series going longer instead of jamming stuff together. I
Comments
With a sandbox New World it would also guarantee that it would not cannibalize (or be cannibalized by) a future Lord of the Rings-MMO, which I'm sure will be a theme park too.
Anyway Amazon Game Studios sounds like a shit place to work at. Why a smart guy like Bezos would allow such an incompetent guy like Frazzini to be the head of a potential goldmine, and why he would allow the recruitment of John "Destroyer of Games" Smedley is beyond me.
This just proves that a studio with no soul will never be successful, no matter how deep the pockets are.
Management forcing the studio to use Lumberyard sounds a lot like EA "encouraging" it's studio's to use Frostbite.
I'm not an IT Specialist, Game Developer, or Clairvoyant in real life, but like others on here, I play one on the internet.
I can't stand Smedly, but you are correct. The question it really boils down to is does Amazon want to take their lumps and bruises? I don't think they do, they are looking to put down a massive success and can't figure it out. A sub model with dungeons being made 2-3 times per year for the first 5 years +expansion is what is needed to be a giant. They have the money and can get the manpower, but if they blunder it because they don't want the man at the top to be anyone other than someone who worked their way up.
I've actually enjoyed a lot of their card games SOE made (both the EQ and SW were decent) and played and will to this day say that the Stargate TCG was one of the best I've ever played and their formula was perfect on the weekly tournaments. Sad they got shutdown, and can't find a link to play it online.
The cream of the crop are busy trying to fix their own mess at the moment.
Lol oddly enough, this is giving off Anthem signs....
LOL. Yeah, that's exactly what they needed. A group of "idea guys". Those people are a dime a dozen and they're generally totally shit at their jobs because that's all they've got. Ideas. Concepts are easy to come up with, but not having any actual experience beyond that would ensure that the games would have never even come close to fruition.
Idea guys are the same people who came up with the likes of Greed Monger, Sacrament Online, Chronicles of Elyria, etc.
people really need to stop flexing about daybreak and the games under it. They got daybreak for a joke of a price given all the titles/assets they now control with the purchase.
D an D
Lord of the rings
All EQ's
Planet side
DCUO
H1Z1
Albion onlines company was bought for a little under half that price but for only one title. Even more amusing is the fact that Stillfront bought a casual trivia word game company for more then they spent on Albion online.
But I agree both smed and khrolan should never been allowed to work on another game after SOE.
The biggest screw up amazon made was trying to make 5 games at once. They should of focused their resources and time on one instead.
EDIT: It looks like people posted articles on an actual settlement. I'd say that development solidifies Crytek's initial claims LOL.
That was CryEngine. There was a settlement between Crytek and SC.
We have different definitions of stingy I guess.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
As for The Expanse... they picked it up and gave it a Season 4, 5 and eventually 6...
We seriously have very different definitions of stingy
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
The book after that, Persepolis Rising takes place about 30 years after the end of the previous book and the subject matter changes dramatically away from being about the Sol system.
Books 7, 8 and the yet to be released 9 are almost like a separate trilogy set in the same universe but separate from the first 6 books. The whole Earth v. Mars v. Belter thing is over and done with beginning with book 7.
And then there's the internal production drama that led them to cut ties with the actor playing Alex who will either be replaced or killed off for season 6.
Streaming services don't release viewer numbers so no one has any idea if the numbers have gone down or if the cut is happening for either or both of the reasons I mentioned or some other reason altogether.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED