This article is utter BS. One of the biggest issues in the gaming community is an inexcusable amount of toxicity and lack of personal responsibility from those who are behaving in a toxic manor. Do I think the game has some issues? Hell yes, but the game does not decide how you act or react and continuing to blame outside forces for peoples own chosen actions is not going to fix anything but instead continue to give them unreasonable excuses to act in a manner that is not ok, with a scapegoat anytime they are called out on it.
Rewards for completion time has to be one of the dumbest design choices ever for multiplayer games where elitism and toxicity already exists by default.
I was just reading a thread on the Diablo 3 subreddit started by a guy complaining about the elitism in GR groups that won't even consider him unless he has 2,000 Paragon Points... in seasonal play... 2 weeks into the season.
That is also speed of completion related but there is no extra loot for quick completion, just the ability to grind more in a given amount of time or bragging rights on the leaderboard.
I can't even imagine how much worse it would be there if there was also extra loot for quick completion times.
Dumb design is dumb.
Bethesda does this with Fallout 76 Daily Ops. The only redeeming benefit is that a full team even moderately geared can easily do it under time. Elitists and those of us who are impatient or hate grouping with randos just solo or duo it with a friend. The lamest part is that when you end the final boss you have 5 minutes to collect ammo and healing stims before getting booted from the instance. It's annoying.
I just don't understand the kind of thinking that takes a game that is all about leisurely exploring a post-apocalyptic wasteland and fighting the baddies you run into while exploring and then throwing in some e-sport element into the mix.
It's like they're developing for two totally different groups of players that enjoy different things in gaming.
Haven't played 76 but I did play a lot of FO4. That timed event and a limit of time to pick up loot would have been so out of place there.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
How long does it take to finish the single player game? I must admit I only have a sketchy in games unless I am about to buy them, so did not even realise it ended in co-op. I also notice it is now rated on Steam as Mixed, that is pretty low for a Steam game, players tend to overate if anything on Steam.
Obviously, Co-op games should not get a bonus for speed of completion. The same stands for anything with grouping like Raids and so on. Well I say obviously, how many times have games made choices that players immediately realise are counter productive yet the studio does not?
AS already mentioned, the game gives you no means of communication. In a game that has co-op that alone is bad enough, but couple that with timed runs for rewards, and you are being setup for a toxic environment.
I have seen all classes be able to do the hardest content solo. it's not easy and takes specific gear/mods/builds to do, but it's possible. My suggestion is if you want to play Co-op, do it with friends or don't do it. If you just want to experience the story then the game is fine solo.
I'm not an IT Specialist, Game Developer, or Clairvoyant in real life, but like others on here, I play one on the internet.
Rewards for completion time has to be one of the dumbest design choices ever for multiplayer games where elitism and toxicity already exists by default.
I was just reading a thread on the Diablo 3 subreddit started by a guy complaining about the elitism in GR groups that won't even consider him unless he has 2,000 Paragon Points... in seasonal play... 2 weeks into the season.
That is also speed of completion related but there is no extra loot for quick completion, just the ability to grind more in a given amount of time or bragging rights on the leaderboard.
I can't even imagine how much worse it would be there if there was also extra loot for quick completion times.
Dumb design is dumb.
Which was the real point of the OP, unfortunate misuse of the term toxic considering people can't even chat in game.
As others have said, kicking someone because the game's design requires everyone on the team to perform at a minimum level isn't toxic, nor necessarily bad even for those who enjoy such and have the capability to do so.
Where it becomes a negative is for people like me, my skills are average at best so I have to avoid playing content or games which require one to excel or else.
It is bad design if entire classes or roles are left out because they aren't reasonably viable.
OP mentioned Support generally are not welcome being they can't add to damage or survive.
So the problem is not making sure their role is a benefit to the team while making sure their role isn't absolutely necessary, a tricky proposition I'll grant.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
"Lets add all these supportive and tank mods and talents in the game.. except you cant use them because it will severely hurt your rewards in endgame, so fu." - The Devs
And saying "ow yeah, it will go slower but you will still get rewards." .. no... non-DPS builds are so inefficient that even with the best gear its not worth any expedition sadly.
Combine inefficient farming of endgame gear and lack of other endgame options together with only dps builds at least having a chance on decent loot because timetrials always works so well in a lootershooter (-_-) ... they are basically forcing people to either get a quick timetrial run.. or have to do 20+ runs for 1 legendary
"Lets add all these supportive and tank mods and talents in the game.. except you cant use them because it will severely hurt your rewards in endgame, so fu." - The Devs
And saying "ow yeah, it will go slower but you will still get rewards." .. no... non-DPS builds are so inefficient that even with the best gear its not worth any expedition sadly.
Combine inefficient farming of endgame gear and lack of other endgame options together with only dps builds at least having a chance on decent loot because timetrials always works so well in a lootershooter (-_-) ... they are basically forcing people to either get a quick timetrial run.. or have to do 20+ runs for 1 legendary
You know, I was interested in this game as a third person shooter, but this sort of thing kills it for me. I LIKE long times to kill. I like tank and support builds. I don't like glass cannons.
I had the exact same situation as the author. I hated my self for kicking the guy but we were just wiping non-stop.
Not everything is black and white or toxic vs non-toxic, I agree the design of the game pushes you into kicking people in order for anyone to get anything.
IMO
- Time-based rewards need to go (it's redundant anyway with "number of completion per hour" and you can still be elitist with your friends to be as efficient as you want).
- A chat box NEEDS implemented. I understand that with the accessibility laws, it's not as easy as it sounds. Being able to communicate by itself may tone down toxicity (you realize that you're playing with other humans rather than "bots")
- IMHO enemy scaling needs toned down to promote build diversity, and also because playing solo or multi sometimes requires different builds to be relevant because of some game mechanics.
This is why in most online games I prefer to go to the dedicated discord servers to find people to run content with, rando match making has always had the issue of people that won't listen or are afk farmers if not little brats that screem insults and all manner of things just because they think its the "cool" thing to do.
Right now until a patch is released for the MP inventory issues I am setting up to solo all the expeditions since that is one of the accolade challenges.
You want examples of Toxic.. look to when goons were in EvE online and infesting other games or when a certain streamers following infested Sea of Thieves.. nuff said.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
This kicking stuff seems to be pretty edge case. This whole article seems based off a random reddit thread that has 0 karma and very little actual data... Not saying the community isn't toxic, they seem to have every right to be upset given the circumstances, but the origin of this article seems a bit "Oh this one guy said this, so it must be true! Let's make it into a news article!" This article also links another thread by an guy saying the community has been accused of being toxic. I mean, sure, technically it has been because that one guy did it. But seriously, one random nobody calling a community toxic is not news lol
This kicking stuff seems to be pretty edge case. This whole article seems based off a random reddit thread that has 0 karma and very little actual data... Not saying the community isn't toxic, they seem to have every right to be upset given the circumstances, but the origin of this article seems a bit "Oh this one guy said this, so it must be true! Let's make it into a news article!" This article also links another thread by an guy saying the community has been accused of being toxic. I mean, sure, technically it has been because that one guy did it. But seriously, one random nobody calling a community toxic is not news lol
Ever been to the reddit before? Count yourself lucky that you come here where you don't live in an echo chamber. Here opinions don't get nuked by the karma system. Here's just a few...
And that took me just 5 minutes to look up. Most of the posts that regard the community as toxic are at 0 karma, or get removed, because fanboys will downvote everything.
I could list links to this kinda stuff all day, but in the OP a dozen links to instances of toxicity wouldn't make a good article probably.
Rewards for completion time has to be one of the dumbest design choices ever for multiplayer games where elitism and toxicity already exists by default.
I was just reading a thread on the Diablo 3 subreddit started by a guy complaining about the elitism in GR groups that won't even consider him unless he has 2,000 Paragon Points... in seasonal play... 2 weeks into the season.
That is also speed of completion related but there is no extra loot for quick completion, just the ability to grind more in a given amount of time or bragging rights on the leaderboard.
I can't even imagine how much worse it would be there if there was also extra loot for quick completion times.
Dumb design is dumb.
Which was the real point of the OP, unfortunate misuse of the term toxic considering people can't even chat in game.
As others have said, kicking someone because the game's design requires everyone on the team to perform at a minimum level isn't toxic, nor necessarily bad even for those who enjoy such and have the capability to do so.
Where it becomes a negative is for people like me, my skills are average at best so I have to avoid playing content or games which require one to excel or else.
It is bad design if entire classes or roles are left out because they aren't reasonably viable.
OP mentioned Support generally are not welcome being they can't add to damage or survive.
So the problem is not making sure their role is a benefit to the team while making sure their role isn't absolutely necessary, a tricky proposition I'll grant.
Yeah the word he was looking for is elitism, not toxicity. Toxicity happens in chat usually after an event triggered by elitism, but you need to have chat first for that to happen
It used to be pretty bad in ESO dungeon PUGs before they modified their addon API to prevent getting specific DPS stats about individual groupmates. A simple change to only being able to see your own and the group as a whole put an end to most of the personalized harassment triggered by those addons.
Not all of it though. Now some of the chat in PUGs is things like "How can I be the tank (or healer) and do 60% of the group damage." I mean... I've wondered that myself sometimes when I'm the healer and also doing most of the damage but I'm not a dick about it and rub the group's nose in it. I just adapt and go with the flow of whatever the group finder gave me.
But I can do that in ESO because those are not timed events. If they were timed, even people like me would be more likely to be elitist because the game mechanics are creating a competence-based motivation to be ruthless with "dead weight."
So yeah, I can't think of any way that game design like that is good even if there are some who enjoy timed events and are capable of doing it.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I had the exact same situation as the author. I hated my self for kicking the guy but we were just wiping non-stop.
Not everything is black and white or toxic vs non-toxic, I agree the design of the game pushes you into kicking people in order for anyone to get anything.
IMO
- Time-based rewards need to go (it's redundant anyway with "number of completion per hour" and you can still be elitist with your friends to be as efficient as you want).
- A chat box NEEDS implemented. I understand that with the accessibility laws, it's not as easy as it sounds. Being able to communicate by itself may tone down toxicity (you realize that you're playing with other humans rather than "bots")
- IMHO enemy scaling needs toned down to promote build diversity, and also because playing solo or multi sometimes requires different builds to be relevant because of some game mechanics.
A well thought out and concise post, but three posts since 2017, come on mate you can do better than that.
Rewards for completion time has to be one of the dumbest design choices ever for multiplayer games where elitism and toxicity already exists by default.
I was just reading a thread on the Diablo 3 subreddit started by a guy complaining about the elitism in GR groups that won't even consider him unless he has 2,000 Paragon Points... in seasonal play... 2 weeks into the season.
That is also speed of completion related but there is no extra loot for quick completion, just the ability to grind more in a given amount of time or bragging rights on the leaderboard.
I can't even imagine how much worse it would be there if there was also extra loot for quick completion times.
Dumb design is dumb.
Which was the real point of the OP, unfortunate misuse of the term toxic considering people can't even chat in game.
As others have said, kicking someone because the game's design requires everyone on the team to perform at a minimum level isn't toxic, nor necessarily bad even for those who enjoy such and have the capability to do so.
Where it becomes a negative is for people like me, my skills are average at best so I have to avoid playing content or games which require one to excel or else.
It is bad design if entire classes or roles are left out because they aren't reasonably viable.
OP mentioned Support generally are not welcome being they can't add to damage or survive.
So the problem is not making sure their role is a benefit to the team while making sure their role isn't absolutely necessary, a tricky proposition I'll grant.
Yeah the word he was looking for is elitism, not toxicity. Toxicity happens in chat usually after an event triggered by elitism, but you need to have chat first for that to happen
It used to be pretty bad in ESO dungeon PUGs before they modified their addon API to prevent getting specific DPS stats about individual groupmates. A simple change to only being able to see your own and the group as a whole put an end to most of the personalized harassment triggered by those addons.
Not all of it though. Now some of the chat in PUGs is things like "How can I be the tank (or healer) and do 60% of the group damage." I mean... I've wondered that myself sometimes when I'm the healer and also doing most of the damage but I'm not a dick about it and rub the group's nose in it. I just adapt and go with the flow of whatever the group finder gave me.
But I can do that in ESO because those are not timed events. If they were timed, even people like me would be more likely to be elitist because the game mechanics are creating a competence-based motivation to be ruthless with "dead weight."
So yeah, I can't think of any way that game design like that is good even if there are some who enjoy timed events and are capable of doing it.
If someone mentioned they were doing a bulk of the group damage I'd just say there's a known bug around DPS stats which happens when a persons rig or internet connection isn't up to par, read about it on ESO reddit so it has to be true.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
This kicking stuff seems to be pretty edge case. This whole article seems based off a random reddit thread that has 0 karma and very little actual data... Not saying the community isn't toxic, they seem to have every right to be upset given the circumstances, but the origin of this article seems a bit "Oh this one guy said this, so it must be true! Let's make it into a news article!" This article also links another thread by an guy saying the community has been accused of being toxic. I mean, sure, technically it has been because that one guy did it. But seriously, one random nobody calling a community toxic is not news lol
Ever been to the reddit before? Count yourself lucky that you come here where you don't live in an echo chamber. Here opinions don't get nuked by the karma system. Here's just a few...
And that took me just 5 minutes to look up. Most of the posts that regard the community as toxic are at 0 karma, or get removed, because fanboys will downvote everything.
I could list links to this kinda stuff all day, but in the OP a dozen links to instances of toxicity wouldn't make a good article probably.
If it took you 5 minutes to find better threads -- those are the ones that should have been linked. Notice the word "seems" in my post? I was merely pointing out that it seems as if they didn't do much research, but maybe they did. It is just incompetent to not link real good sources rather then threads with like 5 posts in them and 0 karma. I understand that MMORPG is an echo chamber, but so is reddit. In fact, the threads that point out that the community is not toxic having no karma is proof of that. If anything, the community doesn't actually think it is true or they would be UPVOTING the threads whining about toxicity. So then again, maybe that research I originally thought they didn't do...they didn't. ;P You also lack a bit of crucial information. The game used to force you to have open games by default, thus people left it on often. The only way you play multiplayer is through these open games if you aren't playing exclusively with friends. So what happened here is players accidently left it on and would have to kick players they didn't want in the game because they didn't realize it. There was also a bug that reset it to "open" every time you remade the lobby / restarted the game. If it was never set to "closed" it is still set to open even after the changes unless they changed it. Also a few of the threads you link are not talking about toxicity in the same way we are here. They are just referring to negativity due to bugs,ect. The article here is referring to players just being jerks to each other. A ton of negativity for this game is to be expected because of all the problems it is having, but a toxic player experience seems to just be something mostly made up by MMORPG.com to create a news article because they don't have good writers anymore. Kicking players from games, for whatever reason; is also not necessarily a toxicity problem. This is a game design problem. If the design of the game both allows players to kick anyone they feel like and only allows players to play in games that allow players to kick anyone...you will experience a lot of kicking since they can kick you if they think your name is bad or whatever. If they had proper matchmaking and vote kick instead, this would be a much better design. (In addition to the current setup as well of coarse)
“Git Gud” is NOT meme-worthy, it's just another way to say "U SUK", without using those exact words. It's just an insult, and toxic.
If someone isn't very good with something, or just not as good as YOU want them to be, try giving some USEFUL ADVICE.
“Git Gud” isn't even bad advice much less good advice, so don't go there, unless you like being a toxic.
Title is super fun! Murderers are not to be blamed for murder. Thieving bankers are not to be blamed for being crooked. Politicians are not to be blamed for being corrupt.
Wow.... Just no.
No fate but what we make, so make me a ham sandwich please.
Comments
It's like they're developing for two totally different groups of players that enjoy different things in gaming.
Haven't played 76 but I did play a lot of FO4. That timed event and a limit of time to pick up loot would have been so out of place there.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Obviously, Co-op games should not get a bonus for speed of completion. The same stands for anything with grouping like Raids and so on. Well I say obviously, how many times have games made choices that players immediately realise are counter productive yet the studio does not?
I have seen all classes be able to do the hardest content solo. it's not easy and takes specific gear/mods/builds to do, but it's possible. My suggestion is if you want to play Co-op, do it with friends or don't do it. If you just want to experience the story then the game is fine solo.
I'm not an IT Specialist, Game Developer, or Clairvoyant in real life, but like others on here, I play one on the internet.
As others have said, kicking someone because the game's design requires everyone on the team to perform at a minimum level isn't toxic, nor necessarily bad even for those who enjoy such and have the capability to do so.
Where it becomes a negative is for people like me, my skills are average at best so I have to avoid playing content or games which require one to excel or else.
It is bad design if entire classes or roles are left out because they aren't reasonably viable.
OP mentioned Support generally are not welcome being they can't add to damage or survive.
So the problem is not making sure their role is a benefit to the team while making sure their role isn't absolutely necessary, a tricky proposition I'll grant.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
If people becomes toxic over someone who don't know about something or good as them. It's 100 percent on them for being toxic.
Being a toxic player is not a disease you get from other people and it's their fault. Don't blame other people for your action of being toxic.
And saying "ow yeah, it will go slower but you will still get rewards." .. no... non-DPS builds are so inefficient that even with the best gear its not worth any expedition sadly.
Combine inefficient farming of endgame gear and lack of other endgame options together with only dps builds at least having a chance on decent loot because timetrials always works so well in a lootershooter (-_-) ... they are basically forcing people to either get a quick timetrial run.. or have to do 20+ runs for 1 legendary
https://ashesofcreation.com/r/Y4U3PQCASUPJ5SED
How you treat others who have done you or people you care about no wrong, reflects entirely on you and your character or lack there of.
Not everything is black and white or toxic vs non-toxic, I agree the design of the game pushes you into kicking people in order for anyone to get anything.
IMO
- Time-based rewards need to go (it's redundant anyway with "number of completion per hour" and you can still be elitist with your friends to be as efficient as you want).
- A chat box NEEDS implemented. I understand that with the accessibility laws, it's not as easy as it sounds. Being able to communicate by itself may tone down toxicity (you realize that you're playing with other humans rather than "bots")
- IMHO enemy scaling needs toned down to promote build diversity, and also because playing solo or multi sometimes requires different builds to be relevant because of some game mechanics.
Right now until a patch is released for the MP inventory issues I am setting up to solo all the expeditions since that is one of the accolade challenges.
You want examples of Toxic.. look to when goons were in EvE online and infesting other games or when a certain streamers following infested Sea of Thieves.. nuff said.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Looters have the most Toxic of Communities. : outriders (reddit.com)
Why are people who call the community so toxic focused on the balancing patch? : outriders (reddit.com)
Tired of the toxic hate : outriders (reddit.com)
How to report toxic players? : outriders (reddit.com)
My best and first expedition experience on CT 15 so far. : outriders (reddit.com)
And that took me just 5 minutes to look up. Most of the posts that regard the community as toxic are at 0 karma, or get removed, because fanboys will downvote everything.
I could list links to this kinda stuff all day, but in the OP a dozen links to instances of toxicity wouldn't make a good article probably.
It used to be pretty bad in ESO dungeon PUGs before they modified their addon API to prevent getting specific DPS stats about individual groupmates. A simple change to only being able to see your own and the group as a whole put an end to most of the personalized harassment triggered by those addons.
Not all of it though. Now some of the chat in PUGs is things like "How can I be the tank (or healer) and do 60% of the group damage." I mean... I've wondered that myself sometimes when I'm the healer and also doing most of the damage but I'm not a dick about it and rub the group's nose in it. I just adapt and go with the flow of whatever the group finder gave me.
But I can do that in ESO because those are not timed events. If they were timed, even people like me would be more likely to be elitist because the game mechanics are creating a competence-based motivation to be ruthless with "dead weight."
So yeah, I can't think of any way that game design like that is good even if there are some who enjoy timed events and are capable of doing it.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
If someone isn't very good with something, or just not as good as YOU want them to be, try giving some USEFUL ADVICE.
“Git Gud” isn't even bad advice much less good advice, so don't go there, unless you like being a toxic.
Lost my mind, now trying to lose yours...
Wow.... Just no.
No fate but what we make, so make me a ham sandwich please.