Non-Violent MMO (in-development by Spry Fox)

francis_baud · April 2021

A new MMO project on Unreal Engine by the independent studio Spry Fox.

"stylized, joyful and non-violent"

"Spry Fox’s motto is “make the world a better place.” We try to do that through the games we make, whether that’s by designing MMOs that encourage the development of friendships and discourage toxicity [...]"

"[...] a game unlike anything that has ever been made before, with (among other things) meaningful goals to improve people’s lives and reduce toxicity and loneliness in the world."

Would you play a non-violent MMO if it was a quality game with a lot of things to do?

(read about it on MOP)

Asm0deus · April 2021

Interesting for younger kids I guess but then I would also think kids this young shouldn't be playing video games maybe.

Rungar · April 2021

Somehow I think it would be more psychopathic than the violent world. I wouldn't qualify anyway since telling the truth is toxic.

iixviiiix · April 2021

You can't have non violent MMO , that's impossible . As long as it is an massivle multiplayer online game , there is violence .

And game with no combat even more toxic than has combat games.

Honestly i rather to have my kid play mortal kombat than playing no combat game like farmville

Scot · April 2021

I am surprised we have not seen more articles on these, not just here but generally in gaming media. Gaming journalists feel a need to take up various activist positions, one of which being that there is too much violence in gaming. To the extent that they fawn over any FPS which does not have real guns. So I would have thought we would be seeing no end of articles about such MMOs.

francis_baud · April 2021

tzervo said:

francis_baud said:

Would you play a non-violent MMO if it was a quality game with a lot of things to do?

Thanks for sharing. In principle I would and I have.

It depends on the reasons the game gives to play. I am not of the "creative/builder" types. In "A Tale in the Desert" you have the trials. In "One Hour One Life" you are occupied with improving the quality, size and tech of the colony you are born in. In "Prosperous Universe" you play the economy game. In all of these I could find meaningful (at least to me) objectives to work on.

I am also keeping an eye on "Book of Travels" which is another mostly non-violent MMO in development. Both that and the one you shared look interesting. If they have meaningful activities to do in game, I can see myself at least trying them.

A Tale in the Desert seems very interesting, first time I read about it.

From what I've understood the learning curve is pretty steep, with simple actions (like gathering rocks) not easy to figure out at first glance. The time-limited (18 months) tales are something I find interesting too. There seems to have a lot of social systems and constructive things to do.

Prosperous Universe looks cool, I wonder why it doesn't get more traction (most viewed video has 20K views). I just realized it's a browser-based management (mostly text-based I think) MMO so it's less appealing to watch gameplay on YouTube. Interesting nonetheless.

I love the art style of Book of Travels. I was expecting a full MMORPG at first but then someone told me it wasn't. ("Book of Travels also differs from traditional MMOs because of its multiplayer design. Instead, we’re calling it a TMO – a Tiny Multiplayer Online. That’s because there really won’t be anything ‘massive’ about the multiplayer aspect of the game. Instead we’re building a game experience where there will just be a few people on each server, and when you cross paths, we want it to be a memorable moment.")

Thanks for sharing those non-violent games!

Wizardry · April 2021

Well there are two trains of thought,a survival game with 3/4 of the game missing and a W101 type that uses super boring questing and of course no combat.

No matter the choice in design if there is no viloence there is no need for related gear/items/loot so the entire game has really no reliable carrot to chase.

BTW i have played Tales in the Desert quite a long time ago,i thought it was real bad and that is how i feel ANY non violent game will be.
I looked at that Spreadsheets in space game "Prosperous Universe"...NO and proves why such a genre is just a big fail.
I bet every single attempt at this genre will be 1/4 a game or much less,like Eve already is a very shallow game but if yo uremove combat and just play the spreadhseet/market game to me that is super boring and can you even play the market with no combat?You might play 1/50th of the market lol.

Just my opinion but the best option for this type of game is NOT boring quests but the survival game without the combat.Robust building/pets/mounts.However if i look at a very long successful game "Minecraft" i can't help but wonder if it would be that big never having combat.

Nebless · April 2021

francis_baud said:

Would you play a non-violent MMO if it was a quality game with a lot of things to do?

It would really depend on the game, but sure. Myst and Myst Online were totally non-violent and while I found the puzzles there were generally not my thing it was always enjoyable wandering around.

Wizardry · April 2021

I should also point out that i still feel people keep forgetting what this is all about.

Dev studios look for an ANGLE, a market they think is less competitive,perhaps a market they can PROFIT from.

This is no different than a recently advertised game here that was going to use a certain race/heritage to sell itself.

I personally don't like when devs do this,i feel they are really trying to deceive people into thinking they are doing some good when in reality it is just a business out to make money.
Most everything is just a cash grab,Gama Award shows,events,Giveaways,it is all a part of advertising and PR,DBL XP weekends etc etc however i feel the average gamer looks at the superficial and let's it fly right over their head.

Theocritus · April 2021

I remember trying a non-violent MMO about 3-4 years ago....I can't remember it's name but it was a one word title....The game was f2p and I dont remember how it made its income, but it didn't work as teh game went under fairly quick.....I did enjoy playing it though.....It had alot of skills and you had to move around a map exploring to find the skills and improve them...You could also trade skills with other players by talking to them. It encouraged friendly, social play and I thought it was a really good game...Too bad they couldnt find a way to make a profit.

Sovrath · April 2021

iixviiiix said:

You can't have non violent MMO , that's impossible . As long as it is an massivle multiplayer online game , there is violence .

And game with no combat even more toxic than has combat games.
Honestly i rather to have my kid play mortal kombat than playing no combat game like farmville

That's a completely outrageous claim. As far as people being toxic, they'll be toxic whether there is "physical violence" or not.

Mods can easily remove them and "done."

As far as the question asked of the thread "I would" but it depends on what I'd be doing.

as a side note, I'm looking forward to trying book of travels, "tiny" or not.

francis_baud · April 2021

Wizardry said:
I personally don't like when devs do this,i feel they are really trying to deceive people into thinking they are doing some good when in reality it is just a business out to make money.
Most everything is just a cash grab,Gama Award shows,events,Giveaways,it is all a part of advertising and PR,DBL XP weekends etc etc however i feel the average gamer looks at the superficial and let's it fly right over their head.

Well sometimes studios pursue more than just the obvious objective (earning revenues), with goals like creating innovative technologies, building social systems that connect people together, telling an interesting story, etc.

Theocritus · April 2021

tzervo said:

Theocritus said:

I remember trying a non-violent MMO about 3-4 years ago....I can't remember it's name but it was a one word title....The game was f2p and I dont remember how it made its income, but it didn't work as teh game went under fairly quick.....I did enjoy playing it though.....It had alot of skills and you had to move around a map exploring to find the skills and improve them...You could also trade skills with other players by talking to them. It encouraged friendly, social play and I thought it was a really good game...Too bad they couldnt find a way to make a profit.

Sounds fun. Pity it went under, I would love to try it. If you remember the title please share, I am curious to check it out, even if it is no longer online.

The game went under but some of the players got the code and were going to work on it under another name, but I never heard anything more....I will see if I can find the name of it and if it is in existance anymore.

Theocritus · April 2021

tzervo said:

Theocritus said:

I remember trying a non-violent MMO about 3-4 years ago....I can't remember it's name but it was a one word title....The game was f2p and I dont remember how it made its income, but it didn't work as teh game went under fairly quick.....I did enjoy playing it though.....It had alot of skills and you had to move around a map exploring to find the skills and improve them...You could also trade skills with other players by talking to them. It encouraged friendly, social play and I thought it was a really good game...Too bad they couldnt find a way to make a profit.

Sounds fun. Pity it went under, I would love to try it. If you remember the title please share, I am curious to check it out, even if it is no longer online.

Ok I am pretty sure this was the game

https://www.glitchthegame.com/

Quizzical · April 2021

The question isn't what don't you do. It's what do you do. If you take an MMORPG that is mostly about combat and then take the combat out, what you have is an empty shell of a game that is completely pointless.

That's not to say that you can't make non-combat games that are interesting. Most sports games aren't very violent. Same with most puzzle games, or a lot of simulation games or visual novels. The problem is that most types of non-violent gameplay that work well in other games just don't lend themselves to being massively multiplayer.

cameltosis · April 2021

Quizzical said:

The question isn't what don't you do. It's what do you do. If you take an MMORPG that is mostly about combat and then take the combat out, what you have is an empty shell of a game that is completely pointless.

That's not to say that you can't make non-combat games that are interesting. Most sports games aren't very violent. Same with most puzzle games, or a lot of simulation games or visual novels. The problem is that most types of non-violent gameplay that work well in other games just don't lend themselves to being massively multiplayer.

Totally agree.

I do play a lot of non-violent games, but they're always sims or racing games, neither of which would lend itself well to an MMO.

With sim games, its all about creativity. Whether that be building a zoo, a city, or just designing a funky looking building for a few hours, letting my creativity flow is a lot of fun and you set your own pace. But, definitely not a multiplayer experience.

With racing games, that's more of a direct replacement to combat. Driving a fast car requires a similar level of concentration and input to combat and so can provide a similar level of enjoyment. Driving is pure action, and I do prefer my combat to be more intellectually driven, so a driving MMO would be unlikely to hold my attention for long.

So, that's my big worry. I have no problem with a non-violent MMORPG, however I do struggle to think up what sort of gameplay could replace combat. But, assuming the devs could find something that is equally mentally engaging and that provides a similar level of fun, then sure, I'd try it. But, I'd need that new gameplay to be there, im a combat-focused player most of the time because I enjoy that intensity.

cameltosis · April 2021

tzervo said:

cameltosis said:
So, that's my big worry. I have no problem with a non-violent MMORPG, however I do struggle to think up what sort of gameplay could replace combat.

No need to think up, you just see the current offerings and make up your mind whether you like it or not:

ATitD: Politics, building, deep crafting
One Hour One Life: Extremely deep crafting, building, survival
Prosperous Universe: Economics, politics

From what I understand Book of Travels will have a deep focus on exploration. Not sure about the game in OP yet, MOP article has little in terms of details.

Sadly, I'm into crafting or economics. I have yet to play a game that had enjoyable crafting, virtually everything I've played with crafting involved virtually no gameplay at all: just plug ingredients into a recipe, click-to-make. The fun always seems to be with the selling / economy, which I don't have the patience for.

So, looking at current offerings, nope, nothing available right now is suitable as a replacement for combat. But, that doesn't mean there won't be in the future :-)

Asm0deus · April 2021

People bring up interesting points but have any of you looked into "Spry Fox"? If you look at their site they definitely seem to be kid oriented.

https://spryfox.com/

Mendel · April 2021

cameltosis said:

tzervo said:

cameltosis said:
So, that's my big worry. I have no problem with a non-violent MMORPG, however I do struggle to think up what sort of gameplay could replace combat.

No need to think up, you just see the current offerings and make up your mind whether you like it or not:

ATitD: Politics, building, deep crafting
One Hour One Life: Extremely deep crafting, building, survival
Prosperous Universe: Economics, politics

From what I understand Book of Travels will have a deep focus on exploration. Not sure about the game in OP yet, MOP article has little in terms of details.

Sadly, I'm into crafting or economics. I have yet to play a game that had enjoyable crafting, virtually everything I've played with crafting involved virtually no gameplay at all: just plug ingredients into a recipe, click-to-make. The fun always seems to be with the selling / economy, which I don't have the patience for.

So, looking at current offerings, nope, nothing available right now is suitable as a replacement for combat. But, that doesn't mean there won't be in the future :-)

I agree. The reason why there is nothing suitable for combat is because few games have chosen to pursue non-combat functions within a game. Most every MMORPG, in particular, has two specific functions, combat and crafting. Even then, the crafting role is subservient to the combat role, i.e., crafting requires raw materials which are frequently only acquired through combat. Of all the MMORPGs I've played only LotRO's farming is the only craft skill that isn't tied to combat.

Quizzical · April 2021

cameltosis said:

tzervo said:

cameltosis said:
So, that's my big worry. I have no problem with a non-violent MMORPG, however I do struggle to think up what sort of gameplay could replace combat.

No need to think up, you just see the current offerings and make up your mind whether you like it or not:

ATitD: Politics, building, deep crafting
One Hour One Life: Extremely deep crafting, building, survival
Prosperous Universe: Economics, politics

From what I understand Book of Travels will have a deep focus on exploration. Not sure about the game in OP yet, MOP article has little in terms of details.

Sadly, I'm into crafting or economics. I have yet to play a game that had enjoyable crafting, virtually everything I've played with crafting involved virtually no gameplay at all: just plug ingredients into a recipe, click-to-make. The fun always seems to be with the selling / economy, which I don't have the patience for.

So, looking at current offerings, nope, nothing available right now is suitable as a replacement for combat. But, that doesn't mean there won't be in the future :-)

Have you at least tried A Tale in the Desert? That game's crafting very much isn't just click to create an item and be done. Well, some things in the game are. But a whole lot of them aren't.

Po_gg · April 2021

Mendel said:

Of all the MMORPGs I've played only LotRO's farming is the only craft skill that isn't tied to combat.

Farmer is a gathering profession, those are all peaceful (mining ores and cutting trees the other two), but the actual crafting professions are peaceful too, cooks, scholars don't need anything from mobs.

Not to mention you always can trade with other players, and leave the "dirty work" to them

Other MMORPGs, Neverwinter's Workshop comes to mind, you don't even need to leave PE during your crafting career.

However, I feel an important aspect is being neglected during the conversation, the focus is strictly on combat vs. non-combat.

(mind you, maybe just my interpretation, and recent history shows I'm not the sharpest knife in that drawer

language and translation ain't my forte apparently)

As I see in the OP, non-violent is just the mean, a tool in this whole process, where the actual goal is "encourage the development of friendships and discourage toxicity"

So, for me the bigger question is, such setting is, or will, really discouraging toxicity? LotRO could be a great example on how a regular MMORPG with plenty of combat can go really well on the friendship and no toxicity aspect...

KingIsle games (W101/P101) also have combat, yet they're kid friendly games and not much toxicity either.

I believe not the combat itself is the key factor in it, but pvp. The most toxic communities I've seen were always in pvp-focused games.

And not specifically "combat pvp" alone, could be trading, etc.

Toxicity doesn't even need the game itself, think on the offline corps backstabbings in EVE, or swatting in general.

Po_gg · April 2021

tzervo said:

I always believed that PVP is not toxic, people are. You will get toxicity in PVP, PVE, economic competition etc. But combat PVP usually gives the easiest and fastest tools to grief. Which is why usually non-combat games lend to less toxicity, even if they have some form of competition. EVE is special, too high stakes I guess.

I agree, more or less I've said the same since what I was arguing about is the direct causality.

A regular game ("violent", with combat) can be friendly, or toxic too.

Likewise, a "non-violent" game can also be friendly, or toxic too - though I agree it'd be tough to give actual examples, besides close calls like the economic competition you've mentioned... Ever, Jane had some pretty toxic gossiping, if that counts

My point was only that the "we want a friendly game without toxicity therefore we build a non-violent game" approach ain't a guarantee for success.

It sure can help, and might be enough even. But there's no absolute connection between the two, since there are countless examples for other approaches just as successful.

Similarly, pvp ain't an absolute either - even though I'm a PvE player, hence biased

Pvp might be the easiest and quickest path towards a toxic community, but not a guaranteed one. Pvp ain't necessarily destined to be toxic.
I can only cite LotRO again, the pvp there -as much as I've seen from it- is pretty civilised, I'd dare to say even respectful.

Maybe the lore/design helps in it, the chat is separated ("Freeps don't understand black speech").
When the different sides can throw insults at the enemies, it can quickly fuel the fires of toxicity...

ed. actually chat can be an important factor as well. W101/P101 also have regulated and filtered chats as I remember...

Quizzical · April 2021

tzervo said:

Po_gg said:
I believe not the combat itself is the key factor in it, but pvp. The most toxic communities I've seen were always in pvp-focused games.
And not specifically "combat pvp" alone, could be trading, etc.
Toxicity doesn't even need the game itself, think on the offline corps backstabbings in EVE, or swatting in general.

It is a good point. Iirc ATitD trials often introduce competition between players ("who will build the tallest obelisk", "who will be elected"). PU is mostly about economic competition, although players can also work together in forming supply chains or planet wide projects. But even though these games have non-violent "PVP" their playerbases are on average more civil and less toxic. I always believed that PVP is not toxic, people are. You will get toxicity in PVP, PVE, economic competition etc. But combat PVP usually gives the easiest and fastest tools to grief. Which is why usually non-combat games lend to less toxicity, even if they have some form of competition. EVE is special, too high stakes I guess.

A Tale in the Desert had a different sort of toxic community than any other MMORPG I've ever played. Because the game was designed to be mostly cooperative, some prominent players were self-appointed enforcers of the common good and would get mad at people who wanted to do what they thought was interesting, rather than follow the crowd and do what everyone else was doing.

For example, the game has "universities" that unlock skills. In order to unlock a skill, players have to donate huge amounts of resources at a university. Once the resources are donated, the skill is unlocked and anyone in the game who wants to can visit the university to acquire the skill for free. Unlocking new skills is a major way that players make progress in the game.

But each skill isn't available at just one university. There are something like a dozen copies of each university scattered across the map. Having the same skill open in multiple places does give a new player multiple choices as to where to learn it, and in a slow travel game, that helps a little. But it doesn't really make that much of a difference.

I never donated to universities, and some people got mad at me for it. If a given skill is already unlocked in five places, I just didn't see that much marginal benefit to putting in a massive amount of work to unlock it in a sixth place, which is roughly what some other people wanted me to do with my time in the game.

One player that I had never met even sent me a lengthy sequence of whispers basically telling me to quit the game because I wasn't welcome there. Apparently my offenses were not donating to universities, not reporting mushroom locations (since I didn't gather them much), and not doing acro. Basically, he was angry that I wasn't doing what the top players wanted everyone else to do, even though there wasn't much benefit either to me or to the community to doing what they wanted.

Instead, I did some things that did offer tremendous benefit to the community because the playerbase needed someone to do them and no one was doing them. I reverse-engineered a number of game mechanics and posted guides on how to use them, most notably cooking. This allowed anyone to get better stats from cooking after understanding how it worked. I set up a mushroom market to buy and sell mushrooms, making it easy for others to get the various mushrooms that they needed for cooking in a single transaction. I was the game's most prominent glass merchant, selling finished glass products in exchange for various other goods.

It's not that the entire playerbase was toxic. Most of the players weren't, and appreciated what I did. But I do think that's the only time that I've ever had a random stranger that I had never met in game send me a lengthy sequence of whispers basically telling me to quit the game, and he was hardly the only one with that sentiment of wanting me to be gone.

ILLISET · April 2021

Sounds like a bag of shit if you ask me

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