I started building my new rig last November. It took a couple months to get everything but I did get everything at MRSP or below except for the 3090 which I paid $400 cad over MSRP back in late November.
GPUs is some of the things I would have stocked up on to sell during the pandemic if I had known. My 2060 Super right now is selling for 3-4 x more then its base price in 2019. I would have bought 10 or more of them if I had known.
Can’t blame anyone for buying stuff. Bottom line is manufacturing can’t keep up.
Can't keep up, thanks to just-in-time delivery/production and businesses' fear of maintaining inventory levels. Maintaining items in stock seems to be a crime to a business, despite its convenience to customers. We're reverting back to pre-industrial age mindsets.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Can’t blame anyone for buying stuff. Bottom line is manufacturing can’t keep up.
Can't keep up, thanks to just-in-time delivery/production and businesses' fear of maintaining inventory levels. Maintaining items in stock seems to be a crime to a business, despite its convenience to customers. We're reverting back to pre-industrial age mindsets.
Some of Covid's supply problems are because of just-in-time delivery.
But with GPUs that's not the case. Both NVidia and AMD have been using up all the manufacturing capacity they've been able to buy since they finished designs for their current GPU generation.
Can’t blame anyone for buying stuff. Bottom line is manufacturing can’t keep up.
Can't keep up, thanks to just-in-time delivery/production and businesses' fear of maintaining inventory levels. Maintaining items in stock seems to be a crime to a business, despite its convenience to customers. We're reverting back to pre-industrial age mindsets.
Some of Covid's supply problems are because of just-in-time delivery.
But with GPUs that's not the case. Both NVidia and AMD have been using up all the manufacturing capacity they've been able to buy since they finished designs for their current GPU generation.
But how much of that lack of capacity is actually due to a lack of importance to build up stock? The business mindset is currently favoring no stock. The incentive to preserve cash at the cost of inventory only hurts the customer.
Maybe GPU manufacturers have reached the limits of production, but someone in that production chain certainly isn't in any hurry to increase that capacity. It's like they can make 100 units/day, but could sell 200/day, and they'd rather let the unit price skyrocket due to supply not meeting demand rather than trying to increase the supply.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
The biggest cause of the supply problems is that most branches of the economy banked that there was going to be a recession and steep drop in consumer demand because of covid.
As far as JIT goes. I’m a manufacturer of metal parts and metal products. I went to more than a few conferences and workshops back in the 90’s regarding JIT. Back then a companies largest piece of overhead bar none was inventory. I bet most of you don’t know that a companies inventory is taxed. Even raw materials kept in inventory are taxed. It’s all taxed as assets when the reality for me and many other businesses is that anything on the shelf and not sold is a liability. Not to mention the real estate, buildings needed to house the inventory and the related municipal taxes.
Can’t blame anyone for buying stuff. Bottom line is manufacturing can’t keep up.
Can't keep up, thanks to just-in-time delivery/production and businesses' fear of maintaining inventory levels. Maintaining items in stock seems to be a crime to a business, despite its convenience to customers. We're reverting back to pre-industrial age mindsets.
Some of Covid's supply problems are because of just-in-time delivery.
But with GPUs that's not the case. Both NVidia and AMD have been using up all the manufacturing capacity they've been able to buy since they finished designs for their current GPU generation.
But how much of that lack of capacity is actually due to a lack of importance to build up stock? The business mindset is currently favoring no stock. The incentive to preserve cash at the cost of inventory only hurts the customer.
Maybe GPU manufacturers have reached the limits of production, but someone in that production chain certainly isn't in any hurry to increase that capacity. It's like they can make 100 units/day, but could sell 200/day, and they'd rather let the unit price skyrocket due to supply not meeting demand rather than trying to increase the supply.
The GPU shortage didn't start when the pandemic did. It started when the price of Ethereum spiked upward around the start of 2021. There was a similar shortage around the start of 2018, and surely that wasn't due to COVID-19.
Furthermore, it is very well known that there is a "silicon shortage". Foundries have to decide how much fab space they're going to build years ahead of time. TSMC made their choices assuming that they would build a large fraction of the world's cutting edge logic chips, but nowhere near all of them. Then Global Foundries abandoned the cutting edge, Samsung's 7 nm node wasn't very good (and even their 5 nm may not be much better than TSMC's 7 nm), and Intel's 10 nm was so delayed that it's still not in high volume production well after they should have moved on to 7 nm if their 10 nm node hadn't been delayed. So instead of producing something like 1/2 or 2/3 of the world's cutting edge logic chips, TSMC has had to use that foundry capacity to produce nearly all of them. That's one way to get a shortage.
The older nodes are still around, but not as good. Furthermore, even though in some cases, you can use an older node instead of the cutting edge, when a lot of customers do that, you get shortages on the older nodes, too. This isn't a problem of a "just in time" supply line. It's a problem that if the amount of chips that people want to order exceeds the cumulative amount that can be produced worldwide by 20%, and that imbalance stays in place for years, you get a shortage.
Crypto mining will eventually increase at exponential rates. It may very well be that GPUs will no longer primarily be used for gaming.
This also means that crypto mining will likely be the single greatest use of global energy production (in it's current infancy, it uses 0.4% of all energy production). I'm in IT, and I personally know of more than one tech illegally running crypto mining, piggy backed on enterprise servers run by businesses. They make thousands a month while the business pays for their power use.
Yes, this all leads to some epic problems in the future.
Crypto mining will eventually increase at exponential rates. It may very well be that GPUs will no longer primarily be used for gaming.
This also means that crypto mining will likely be the single greatest use of global energy production (in it's current infancy, it uses 0.4% of all energy production). I'm in IT, and I personally know of more than one tech illegally running crypto mining, piggy backed on enterprise servers run by businesses. They make thousands a month while the business pays for their power use.
Yes, this all leads to some epic problems in the future.
Crypto mining will eventually increase at exponential rates. It may very well be that GPUs will no longer primarily be used for gaming.
This also means that crypto mining will likely be the single greatest use of global energy production (in it's current infancy, it uses 0.4% of all energy production). I'm in IT, and I personally know of more than one tech illegally running crypto mining, piggy backed on enterprise servers run by businesses. They make thousands a month while the business pays for their power use.
Yes, this all leads to some epic problems in the future.
Missed you nice to see you back again.
Thanks. Lots of fond memories here and in mmorpgs, but needed to take a break and deprogram from this internet craziness we live in today.
Hopefully this is the start of a trend where governments crack down on crypto currency due to its high electrical demands and possible negative impacts on the environment.
Would be a good excuse for governments to take action anyhoot lol
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
Cryptocurrency blockchain mining just needs to be made a punishable offense, like some other net related activities like hacking etc.
This wouldn't have the contra-effect of say the Prohibition. It'd simply drive away at least 80% consumers and an econ unit can't survive without users ; it'd wither and die and the marketplace would finally start recovering from this nonsense. As for hackers...who cares.
Cryptocurrency blockchain mining just needs to be made a punishable offense, like some other net related activities like hacking etc.
This wouldn't have the contra-effect of say the Prohibition. It'd simply drive away at least 80% consumers and an econ unit can't survive without users ; it'd wither and die and the marketplace would finally start recovering from this nonsense. As for hackers...who cares.
I'm no fan of cryptocurrency or mining but am puzzled why you would want to punish people for doing what is as far as I know a legal activity most everywhere.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Cryptocurrency blockchain mining just needs to be made a punishable offense, like some other net related activities like hacking etc.
This wouldn't have the contra-effect of say the Prohibition. It'd simply drive away at least 80% consumers and an econ unit can't survive without users ; it'd wither and die and the marketplace would finally start recovering from this nonsense. As for hackers...who cares.
I'm no fan of cryptocurrency or mining but am puzzled why you would want to punish people for doing what is as far as I know a legal activity most everywhere.
Because there are good measures for everything(and there is such a thing as too much freedom). eMining is currently quite cancerous and we all know how you handle tumours. In this case, gpu producers should just come up with a dedicated mining lineup and throttle it somehow on all the rest.
Ultimately? I don't want to pay for someone else's fun or profits. This is where I draw the line. Ultra expensive gpus just so they can mine(and I can...no)...fine, have your lineup, fuck off.
That's why. Because I might have a needlessly expensive problem down the line, just because of "made up, screw the system currency".
Hopefully this is the start of a trend where governments crack down on crypto currency due to its high electrical demands and possible negative impacts on the environment.
Would be a good excuse for governments to take action anyhoot lol
Do you really think this will bring prices down. OMG I really hope so.
Cryptocurrency blockchain mining just needs to be made a punishable offense, like some other net related activities like hacking etc.
This wouldn't have the contra-effect of say the Prohibition. It'd simply drive away at least 80% consumers and an econ unit can't survive without users ; it'd wither and die and the marketplace would finally start recovering from this nonsense. As for hackers...who cares.
I'm no fan of cryptocurrency or mining but am puzzled why you would want to punish people for doing what is as far as I know a legal activity most everywhere.
Because there are good measures for everything(and there is such a thing as too much freedom). eMining is currently quite cancerous and we all know how you handle tumours. In this case, gpu producers should just come up with a dedicated mining lineup and throttle it somehow on all the rest.
Ultimately? I don't want to pay for someone else's fun or profits. This is where I draw the line. Ultra expensive gpus just so they can mine(and I can...no)...fine, have your lineup, fuck off.
That's why. Because I might have a needlessly expensive problem down the line, just because of "made up, screw the system currency".
nvidia has a line up focused on 3d modelling and processing... they could easily make a card focusing on crypto minning on it's spec.
But, again, they don't care.
I don't think it's because they don't care but that they make more money selling to miners. The cards wear out faster so they buy more cards. Gamers often resell their cards so the people buying them will not buy a new card but miners buy new cards. So for these card manufacturers the hand that feeds them is clear so they cater to them and pay lip service to gamers.
They make it. They just don't (can't) make enough of them to make a dent.
That's the issue with "infinite" returns that crypto seems to offer. If every card you buy pays for itself and makes profit, the only reason you'd stop buying cards is because there are not more to buy.
Hopefully this is the start of a trend where governments crack down on crypto currency due to its high electrical demands and possible negative impacts on the environment.
Would be a good excuse for governments to take action anyhoot lol
Do you really think this will bring prices down. OMG I really hope so.
The article mentions something like china producing like 65% of all crpyto currency so if they close down in china and other countries follow suit I would say yes gpu prices should come down but there lots that can go wrong between that in theory and what will happen in practice.
From this article and a couple others I read the prices in china of gpu's already went down drastically. Would be nice if it followed suit in other countries like NA but then NA needs to get its head outa its arse for that to happen.
IMO crpyto currency is the same scam as the perpetual motion machine just not as easy to see the scam.
Like gorwe said this crypto shit should be made illegal as these crypto farms are huge huge energy hogs and as such a direct F. U. to the environment all in the name to try and make money untaxable, untraceble etc etc which is only good for one thing..... criminals needing to hide their activities.
I was in the queue for EVGA cards. I got an email for a 3060 but missed the 8 hours window because of work!
They are coming out with their new 3060ti 3070/ti 3080/ti tomorrow I think. These are the RHS? ones (reduced Hash Rate?)
That queue seemed like my best shot. I am still in for other cards so will wait and see what happens. I would like a 3060ti.
How long were you in the que? I put my hat in for a 3080 or a 3090 back in November and I still haven’t received an email:(
I've been in queue since Day 1 for 3070 and 3060, and a couple of the 3090 SKUs. Nada. I did have a friend pop on multiple ones, and hopefully he sells me one.
Problem is, if you didn't have the foresight to sign up for the top / high end card, the queue isn't moving. I did not have that foresight. My friend did.
They seem to only be making the very top tier, highest costing card in each bracket. If you ordered a plain vanilla card - most of those haven't even moved past the first day (and some not even past the first hour) of signups in the queue.
Comments
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2024: 47 years on the Net.
I started building my new rig last November. It took a couple months to get everything but I did get everything at MRSP or below except for the 3090 which I paid $400 cad over MSRP back in late November.
I'm open to offers on a 1080ti
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
But with GPUs that's not the case. Both NVidia and AMD have been using up all the manufacturing capacity they've been able to buy since they finished designs for their current GPU generation.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
As far as JIT goes. I’m a manufacturer of metal parts and metal products. I went to more than a few conferences and workshops back in the 90’s
regarding JIT. Back then a companies largest piece of overhead bar none was inventory. I bet most of you don’t know that a companies inventory is taxed. Even raw materials kept in inventory are taxed. It’s all taxed as assets when the reality for me and many other businesses is that anything on the shelf and not sold is a liability. Not to mention the real estate, buildings needed to house the inventory and the related municipal taxes.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Furthermore, it is very well known that there is a "silicon shortage". Foundries have to decide how much fab space they're going to build years ahead of time. TSMC made their choices assuming that they would build a large fraction of the world's cutting edge logic chips, but nowhere near all of them. Then Global Foundries abandoned the cutting edge, Samsung's 7 nm node wasn't very good (and even their 5 nm may not be much better than TSMC's 7 nm), and Intel's 10 nm was so delayed that it's still not in high volume production well after they should have moved on to 7 nm if their 10 nm node hadn't been delayed. So instead of producing something like 1/2 or 2/3 of the world's cutting edge logic chips, TSMC has had to use that foundry capacity to produce nearly all of them. That's one way to get a shortage.
The older nodes are still around, but not as good. Furthermore, even though in some cases, you can use an older node instead of the cutting edge, when a lot of customers do that, you get shortages on the older nodes, too. This isn't a problem of a "just in time" supply line. It's a problem that if the amount of chips that people want to order exceeds the cumulative amount that can be produced worldwide by 20%, and that imbalance stays in place for years, you get a shortage.
This also means that crypto mining will likely be the single greatest use of global energy production (in it's current infancy, it uses 0.4% of all energy production). I'm in IT, and I personally know of more than one tech illegally running crypto mining, piggy backed on enterprise servers run by businesses. They make thousands a month while the business pays for their power use.
Yes, this all leads to some epic problems in the future.
You stay sassy!
You stay sassy!
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
https://biturl.top/rU7bY3
Beyond the shadows there's always light
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
They make it. They just don't (can't) make enough of them to make a dent.
That's the issue with "infinite" returns that crypto seems to offer. If every card you buy pays for itself and makes profit, the only reason you'd stop buying cards is because there are not more to buy.
Which is exactly what we have.
They are coming out with their new 3060ti 3070/ti 3080/ti tomorrow I think. These are the RHS? ones (reduced Hash Rate?)
That queue seemed like my best shot. I am still in for other cards so will wait and see what happens. I would like a 3060ti.
Wa min God! Se æx on min heafod is!
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Problem is, if you didn't have the foresight to sign up for the top / high end card, the queue isn't moving. I did not have that foresight. My friend did.
They seem to only be making the very top tier, highest costing card in each bracket. If you ordered a plain vanilla card - most of those haven't even moved past the first day (and some not even past the first hour) of signups in the queue.