Are we all stupid? (Click-bait title)

eoloe · July 2021

Or maybe it is just me? Am I stupid?

So, I am currently developing a game in the Core engine. For the ones who do not know Core, it is an online game creating platform similar to Roblox in its functioning but using UE4 instead of an obsolete engine. As part of this hobby, from times to times, I play others' games in order to check the possibilities, the things I may miss, and try to guess how they made it.

This is how I found THAT game:

I won't name it, but here is how it works: the main area is a circle where some creatures continuously walk along and respawn. You have pets. They do the heavy lifting for you. You can not do anything but move anyway! If you are in range, the pets attack the creatures. When the creatures die, you get some resources. With the resources, you can get more pets randomly. The rarer pets are obviously more powerful, and a table shows exactly the percentile chances to get them.

When you get enough pets, you can travel to another level, where the pets, the resources you can get, and the creatures on the circle are different.

A la Pokemon, creatures on the circle are vulnerable to certain attack/element types, and the goal of the game is to built an optimized team of pets efficient against a given set of creatures depending on the level you are.

You can see players, either running after the creatures in circle (lol), or just standing by the circle farming passively the resources.

From there some reflexions/surprises:

- This is grinding in its purest form. There is no story, no action(can do nothing but move), no exploration (there is just the circle in each level). Just grinding. Kill monsters, get loot, with the loot kill more monsters to get more loot to kill more monsters to get more loot to kill more... Does it ring a bell?

- The game is well done. Each level has a different atmosphere. The guy/team who made it put for sure a significant time to develop it. There is undoubtedly some love in it.

- Even if I don't plan to play it again, I got enthusiastic about testing my luck against the displayed table and tried to get the rarer pets. I enjoyed also optimizing my pet team against the sets of creatures(even if it was too straightforward). I usually give 1-5 minute to the games I test on Core. On this one I played more than 1 hour and 30 minutes.

Was I stupid? Or it is exactly what players need? A simple mindless addictive gameplay loop? May be in MMORPGs, immersion, exploration, and other gameplay elements are just "cosmetic" layers to the monster/loot loop?

I play BDO about 6 months each year. It is also full of mindless tasks. Even the monster grinding is: at some point, you know by heart your skill rotation and even the monster spawn rotation. For many of us, MMORPGs are not social experience anymore. We play solo. Or sometimes, they are just this, a glorified chat. I always like to think that games are interesting intellectual experiences but it seems the human brain can fall too easily in hypnotic traps.

" - And who cares if I like it (to fall in hypnotic traps)? I like loot and levels.

- Well, yes of course, but...it is a little bit sad, isn't it? Can't we expect games to elevate just a little bit people's mind, or a least to create cocktails of emotions, not just gazing at a screen for meaningless so-called-rewards?

- You said you play BDO, so just be quiet!

- Ok, I go back to non-playing-bartering."

Wizardry · July 2021

That game is NOT well done,,your perspective of quality versus mine differ greatly.
I have NO respect for any game studio trying to cash in on a gimmick like Pokemon for example.
I do not consider Pokemon Go or TemTem to be anything more than a super cheap app and NOT any kind of quality gaming.

These are low budget piles of crap that just sell,make money but idc one bit about how much money anyone or any studio makes.How much money one makes or how many units sold does not give ANY indication of quality of product because there is a massive world of idiots out there just waiting to spend money foolishly.

I can come up with an exact template i expect for pretty much every genre but they all take some effort instead of trying to cash in on some mmarketing gimmick or title name or off some popular streamers.

eoloe · July 2021

Wizardry said:

That game is NOT well done,,your perspective of quality versus mine differ greatly.
I have NO respect for any game studio trying to cash in on a gimmick like Pokemon for example.

Well, this was a game made probably by hobby team or programmer using the Core assets. By "well done", I meant the person(s) spent probably a significant amount of time doing it. Core is not a platform to produce AAA titles (maybe I am wrong on this one).

But what are you making me write? Am I really, currently, defending this game I used as a bad example?

Tiller · July 2021

I've spent about 72 hours in Core, mostly playing Mergelandia, but when it comes down to it most games in it are kinda garbage games anyways.

eoloe · July 2021

I played it too, and I cannot agree more about the general quality of games over there. But please consider the platform is still very young (alpha) and is accessible to many only since may 2021.

Honestly, I think most of the games will still be garbage even in one year. However I also think there will be talented people coming with great ideas and designs. I am optimistic about it.

Quizzical · July 2021

eoloe said:

Wizardry said:

That game is NOT well done,,your perspective of quality versus mine differ greatly.
I have NO respect for any game studio trying to cash in on a gimmick like Pokemon for example.

Well, this was a game made probably by hobby team or programmer using the Core assets. By "well done", I meant the person(s) spent probably a significant amount of time doing it. Core is not a platform to produce AAA titles (maybe I am wrong on this one).

But what are you making me write? Am I really, currently, defending this game I used as a bad example?

You just have to remember that Wizardry doesn't think that any games are well done, with the possible exceptions of FFXI and Atlas at certain points in their development before they made changes not to his liking that ruined the games.

Sovrath · July 2021

eoloe said:

Was I stupid? Or it is exactly what players need? A simple mindless addictive gameplay loop? May be in MMORPGs, immersion, exploration, and other gameplay elements are just "cosmetic" layers to the monster/loot loop?

I don't think I like the idea of people just using "mindless" for things that don't require tons of logic and thought and planning.

For example, if I hike or take a walk in a garden is that really "mindless" or is it just hitting another part of our mind, one that appreciates something different.

Clearly, something has to happen in one's mind to do any task in a game, and if it is fun then so what?

I often like to mention Howard Gardner's multiple intelligence theory. Not everyone is on board with it but I do see evidence of it all the time.

Some people are just pure dopes at, say, math. But then they can walk a tightrope without so much as a by your leave.

Some people can, seemingly without effort, draw a doodle that looks very realistic and some people can barely make stick figures.

Some games require a certain type of thought and some do not. But they do hit some sort of pleasure center where we can appreciate what is going on and apply ourselves in whatever way that game engages us.

So no, you are not stupid. In my opinion, you are just fretting over something that doesn't need fretting.

Kyleran · July 2021

Answer: No, We are Devo!

Hey, I've come to appreciate largely mindless game play over the years.

How else could I stay current with the latest shows on Netflix if I actually had to devote my full attention to a game at the same time?

Cryomatrix · July 2021

I agree with the differing intelligence theory. I happen to have a skill set that allowed me to be successful in school. If the world was based on artistry or if i was a Spartan, i would finish last in my art school and if i was spartan i would have been sacrificed for sucking.

I dont think im smart, i think i was just good enough in school to barely reach my goals.

iixviiiix · July 2021

there are 2 things that are infinite in this universe . One wasn't sure , the other is .

KnightFalz · July 2021

eoloe said:

Was I stupid? Or it is exactly what players need?

For those players that find it fun it meets their needs. For those that don't it doesn't. Is such not what games are about, the entertainment provided to those that play them.

MonsutaMan · July 2021

I mean....if you clicked on this topic you are.......

......Ah...Damn........

......................

Tiller · July 2021

Not sure why the OP won't name the game. For those wondering it's called Pet Magnate.

Lithuanian · July 2021

It isn't stupid. Sometimes one can wish for activity that seemingly has zero sense. Or intentionally play something...weird.
For example, I wish there was a cliche-full mmo (free one). You know, lolitas with 200 meters swords, shiny effects, quests texts like "Your base is belong to us" and almost no story. I would play it just for laugh and relax. Stupid? Don't think so, just a form of relax, because for normal gaming, I would run my beloved toons in Lotro.

Scot · July 2021

Cryomatrix said:

I agree with the differing intelligence theory. I happen to have a skill set that allowed me to be successful in school. If the world was based on artistry or if i was a Spartan, i would finish last in my art school and if i was spartan i would have been sacrificed for sucking.

I dont think im smart, i think i was just good enough in school to barely reach my goals.

I disagree, being good at art is not about intelligence, though it can certainly help. I will not try to define art unless one of our arty types tries to first.

Our schooling is primarily academic and that directly relates to intelligence. Likewise intelligence is not essential to being a Spartan, though as with anything we do in life it does help.

AlBQuirky · July 2021

Lithuanian said:

It isn't stupid. Sometimes one can wish for activity that seemingly has zero sense. Or intentionally play something...weird.
For example, I wish there was a cliche-full mmo (free one). You know, lolitas with 200 meters swords, shiny effects, quests texts like "Your base is belong to us" and almost no story. I would play it just for laugh and relax. Stupid? Don't think so, just a form of relax, because for normal gaming, I would run my beloved toons in Lotro.

Isn't (or was it?) WoW kind of like that? I recall finding quite a few "cliches" and modern pop culture references throughout the game

Scorchien · July 2021

Not all. But 2/3 of this community could qualify, I'm certain.

Sovrath · July 2021

Scot said:

Cryomatrix said:

I agree with the differing intelligence theory. I happen to have a skill set that allowed me to be successful in school. If the world was based on artistry or if i was a Spartan, i would finish last in my art school and if i was spartan i would have been sacrificed for sucking.

I dont think im smart, i think i was just good enough in school to barely reach my goals.

I disagree, being good at art is not about intelligence, though it can certainly help. I will not try to define art unless one of our arty types tries to first.

Our schooling is primarily academic and that directly relates to intelligence. Likewise intelligence is not essential to being a Spartan, though as with anything we do in life it does help.

Well, that's the whole idea of the multiple intelligences theory, it expands the idea of what "intelligence is" other than being able to add up numbers realllly quick.

It's about the brain "being intelligent enough" to do things that others can't.

I mean, you can't do art without the brain. You can't balance on a narrow surface and do a backflip and land on your feet without your brain.

Heck, we were talking about this last night at my bad movie night "thing" that we come into contact with a lot of really smart people here in the Boston area who can barely tie their shoes, let alone get through life. But they are whizzes at whatever field they specialize in.

How intelligent are you when you can barely get through life?

At least if one just relies upon the whole academic idea of intelligence.

I've seen some pretty dense people do things, and do them so well, that it made me think that there had to be more to how we think of the brain and its capabilities than what people traditionally think of as "intelligence."

Scot · July 2021

Sovrath said:

Scot said:

Cryomatrix said:

I agree with the differing intelligence theory. I happen to have a skill set that allowed me to be successful in school. If the world was based on artistry or if i was a Spartan, i would finish last in my art school and if i was spartan i would have been sacrificed for sucking.

I dont think im smart, i think i was just good enough in school to barely reach my goals.

I disagree, being good at art is not about intelligence, though it can certainly help. I will not try to define art unless one of our arty types tries to first.

Our schooling is primarily academic and that directly relates to intelligence. Likewise intelligence is not essential to being a Spartan, though as with anything we do in life it does help.

Well, that's the whole idea of the multiple intelligences theory, it expands the idea of what "intelligence is" other than being able to add up numbers realllly quick.

It's about the brain "being intelligent enough" to do things that others can't.

I mean, you can't do art without the brain. You can't balance on a narrow surface and do a backflip and land on your feet without your brain.

Heck, we were talking about this last night at my bad movie night "thing" that we come into contact with a lot of really smart people here in the Boston area who can barely tie their shoes, let alone get through life. But they are whizzes at whatever field they specialize in.

How intelligent are you when you can barely get through life?

At least if one just relies upon the whole academic idea of intelligence.

I've seen some pretty dense people do things, and do them so well, that it made me think that there had to be more to how we think of the brain and its capabilities than what people traditionally think of as "intelligence."

I really see that as egalitarian fluff, puts on his best care bear voice: "no one is better than anyone else at anything, we are all intelligent." Just because some people may lack something in one area of life does not mean we have to aggrandise other areas to appease them.

What about emotional intelligence, do you believe in that too? More nonsense, this time equating chalk with cheese, intelligence and emotions being nearly polar opposites in our psyche.

Having some sort of ability in art is to be treasured, but it is not intelligence and why should it be? Do we only value that which we can call "intelligence"?

We are not all the same, some of us are better at certain things, I could not survive a minute at sea if I was depending on my artistic skills for example.

olepi · July 2021

One time, about 15 years ago, I went to Japan to provide some training in chip design.

I noticed on the train that everybody, and I mean everybody, had some kind of hand-held device and they were playing simple games on them. Including the middle-aged businessmen in suits.

That game sounds like something you could enjoy during a 20 min train ride.

Horusra · July 2021

I would love a PvE game that allows for useful activities. City building, area control, mob invasions to destroy said cities if not defended. Planned events that even if not directly controlled by people are directed as in the developer picks low populated areas for mobs to invade. Give people a stake in the world along with your dungeon crawls and loot collection.

RexKushman · July 2021

Scorchien said:

Not all. But 2/3 of this community could qualify, I'm certain.

You're being very generous.

Cryomatrix · July 2021

The theory is that intelligence in common vernacular, in my opinion, is often times proxied as academic skill where as artistic skill is not. People think you're smart because you are good in school.

I am considered intelligent by the world we live in because I succeeded in "school" and I have a career that is associated with intelligence. I however, think a lot of people in my field aren't necessary smart people, but are super skilled in academics.

I went to school with people with photographic memories, it isn't even fair really, but then again, i guess it's like playing Basketball with Michael Jordan or Lebron James.

I am however, skilled in academics (compared to average people) but relatively unskilled compared to people in my field, but a lot of people are skilled in other things and if life was based on those skills, they'd be considered "intelligent" or "smart" by the world around them.

To give you an example, my older brother is academically superior to me in every aspect, he is more skilled in academics, but he is unskilled in a lot of other aspects of life, which make me much more well rounded than he is.

I get that academic skill is more useful than artistic skill or mechanical skill or oratory skills or whatever in the world we live in, but I don't think i'm superior because of it. I am just lucky i was born in a world where my innate skills are appreciated it and highly compensated.

my 2 cents. I agree with both Sovrath and Scot to a certain degree, just don't think i'm superior cuz my skill set is more valuable than art. (I can barely draw a stick figure).

Scot · July 2021

Cryomatrix said:

The theory is that intelligence in common vernacular, in my opinion, is often times proxied as academic skill where as artistic skill is not. People think you're smart because you are good in school.

I am considered intelligent by the world we live in because I succeeded in "school" and I have a career that is associated with intelligence. I however, think a lot of people in my field aren't necessary smart people, but are super skilled in academics.

I went to school with people with photographic memories, it isn't even fair really, but then again, i guess it's like playing Basketball with Michael Jordan or Lebron James.

I am however, skilled in academics (compared to average people) but relatively unskilled compared to people in my field, but a lot of people are skilled in other things and if life was based on those skills, they'd be considered "intelligent" or "smart" by the world around them.

To give you an example, my older brother is academically superior to me in every aspect, he is more skilled in academics, but he is unskilled in a lot of other aspects of life, which make me much more well rounded than he is.

I get that academic skill is more useful than artistic skill or mechanical skill or oratory skills or whatever in the world we live in, but I don't think i'm superior because of it. I am just lucky i was born in a world where my innate skills are appreciated it and highly compensated.

my 2 cents. I agree with both Sovrath and Scot to a certain degree, just don't think i'm superior cuz my skill set is more valuable than art. (I can barely draw a stick figure).

Well greater intelligence makes you better in the fields you get to apply it in. Whether or not that makes you feel superior is down to your character. That guy who was a great Spartan ((Jock

)) at school may also feel superior, that is down to their character really.

I don't think there is anything wrong in feeling pride for your accomplishments, or wanting to compete to prove you are the best. But when you start to mould that into a reason to put yourself above everyone else you start to separate yourself from what connects us all, humanity.

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Are we all stupid? (Click-bait title)

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Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

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Are we all stupid? (Click-bait title)

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Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV