a live and well. people seem to want cling to "used to be" instead of embracing and finding something "that is".
For me not such much what was but I do wish for what they "could" have been instead of what they are now.
I'll take alternate reality for $500 Alex.
describe it "what could be" , instead of making pointless conjectures that lead to no real meaming.
It could've been the Library of Alexandria instead of The Block at Orange(shopping mall). Not saying the shopping mall formula was the worst outcome because there's a lot to play + the genre didn't die.
The genre had the chance to evolve from all the older MMO's but instead evolved from WoW cause cash moneys and we're still on that path. That's why when a MMO comes around with a little extra complexity in their systems it seems 'confusing' to many cause WoW simplicity is still the template being used and the format everyone is used to. Again.. not saying that was the worse option because maybe that's what was needed for the MMO genre to survive..
a live and well. people seem to want cling to "used to be" instead of embracing and finding something "that is".
For me not such much what was but I do wish for what they "could" have been instead of what they are now.
I'll take alternate reality for $500 Alex.
I tend to agree with this, that MMO's are not so much dead, as they are stagnant.
This is why vanilla or legacy servers can and do work, because MMO's have hit, what I would call a Wall. It all feels the same, and while some do put out new ideas, and build something really great, they are all, really mainly.. as they always have been.
Could MMO's be far more in depth? Sure.
There is no shortage of some really great ideas on how MMO's could be made batter on this forums, I have engaged in many of them, and enjoyed the discussions immensely, and every time I see things like "Design your Dream game"
I look at what some of the really good yet reasonable ideas that get put out, and I wonder why this is not happening.
So I agree, if feels like a whole lot more could be done, to really move MMO's to new directions and heights, and yet, no one is even trying.
Sadly, I blame WoW for that, they made this, what many consider the Perfect MMO, and the whole Genre has become stagnated because of it.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
It is in trouble, and it has stagnated, but it isn't dead. There is also great hope for the future, but it might take a while to get there.
Now, what an article like this really needs is facts. I know facts are incredibly hard to come by, especially to the public, but isn't it kinda the job of a journalist to search out the facts? This article just comes across as observational bias: it may be true, it may not, without any data you really can't back up that opinion.
As an absolute basic measure of the health of the MMO market, you could do a "Games Released By Year" chart.
It would be really important when doing this chart to make sure you include a column for "player cap" in your dataset. That way, if you include a game like The Division with a tiny player cap (i.e. not an mmo), then we can at least process the data ourselves and exclude the non-mmos.
This data should all be publicly available, so putting this chart together is doable, if a bit time consuming.
Follow that chart up with a similar one regarding expansions, comparing the number of expansions released that year with the number of mmos still in existence. Again, all that information should be publicly available.
If you were ever able to get hold of population data, that would be amazing. There is soooo much im curious about regarding genuine populations. But, studios long ago stopped releasing official numbers and I doubt you'd be able to convince everyone to hand over their numbers for a journalist.
If you wanted to get deeper into the numbers, I'd love to see some analysis of the different regional markets around the world. Europe vs NA vs Asia. Just how do those markets compare? How have they changed over time? Is the developer bias reflected in the player population?
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
Absolutely not dead but lacking in innovation or something new that will hook the next generation like Eve, EQ2, Guild Wars or WOW did back in the day. Everyone is still trying to copy the medieval theme and race to the top on graphics - its been done to death.
Wow is diliuting its own fan base due to lack of innovation and focus on the core of what made it great and these newcomers wil not get the sustained traction they need because they offer nothing new after the first 30 days.
Lets go Starcraft, Witcher, Diablo, Red Dead, GTA, Horizon Zero or other IP conversions to MMORPG - even Cyberpunk. We need fresh new IP experience rather than a rehash of warhammer tropes
Always Online Single Player games with a veneer of grouping aren't MMORPGs, no matter how much those single-player gamers want to pretend it to be, and no amount of "you're just stuck in the past" gaslighting is going to change that.
As has been pointed out when there were IN-GAME communities, people stuck around. There were always ways of people connecting outside of the game, Discord isn't some new concept that you zoomers seem to think it is. I mean heck, even ICQ had group chatrooms for MUDs and Ultima Online back in the 90's. The fact is people stuck with MMO's in their heyday because of the IN-GAME community and the reliance you had on other people. Until developers realize this and quit trying to appeal to the single-player mindset, the genre is just going to keep flopping around like a fish out of water. Yeah, that fish isn't dead, but it's not in a healthy place by any means.
well, if that is a reason for you not to play em, here is the plot twist for you: most other genres are even older. shooockiiiiing!
people cry about mmos being dead since BC; and the only reason they did so: bc they didn't like a change that was introduced. let em cry, who cares. while the rest of us simply plays a game they like
uh and whoever thinks you can play a mmo alone... try getting into endgame next time
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
Ignorance is contagious, but topical conversations are even more viral.
To be fair though, if anything is dead, it's the bandwagon so many game studios, publishers and investors jumped on during the MMOrpg boom of the mid to late 2000's
Which is a good thing, because man a lot of crap mmo's came out of that machine.
Fishing on Gilgamesh since 2013 Fishing on Bronzebeard since 2005 Fishing in RL since 1992 Born with a fishing rod in my hand in 1979
FF11 was my introduction to the MMO scene. I have fond memories but WoW was my second, and most influential, MMORPG.
I don't think the MMORPG scene is dead. With the number of private servers kicking about with people trying to keep their favourite games and communities alive, I think it's just stagnated.
Making an MMORPG is a behemoth task and an expensive endeavour, as we've seen over the years with a pile of Kickstarters. I hesitate to say it's "easier" making games for other genres because making games is not easy in the slightest, but MMORPGs are on the harder end of the scale, guaranteed.
With the number of failures out there, it's hard to see why anyone would want to risk themselves financially and professionally to invest money and work into making one.
Yes that is actually the issue in my opinion. Sure a game like WoW is still bringing in big financials even with drops in subscription numbers. People are paying for services or buying mounts etc
There are other MMO's in similar positions.
I guess it all comes down to how long people will be willing to pay, for an old game with a shiny expansion. You would think someone might want a good new product by the time that happens... maybe it's decades away I don't know.
If you are happy playing one of these games, it's not an issue for you. If you aren't playing these games then you are just potential income no company is getting because they have no product for you. It's pretty simple.
I feel like mmos are in a good place rn. Whenever I see people talking about how everything forced you to group up in "OG" mmos, I shudder. If mmos were like that now I probably wouldn't even touch them. Being forced to cooperate with randoms just to play a game doesn't sound fun to me. At least with current mmos I can play solo for most of the game, and I have a choice of doing the content in a group when I want to play with someone I actually know. It's too bad the endgame often devolves into needing groups to do most of the content.
I remember playing vindictus when I was younger and not even making it past season 1 content. Now they've made it easier and I've gotten all the way to season 3 and had fun doing it. And now I've hit a wall where I can't do anything without a party to carry me cause the content is too difficult. If only devs would let casuals be casual the whole way through and keep the hardcore stuff as side content for those who really like that stuff. Then I think the genre would really flourish.
Yes they are dead, we are only getting old mmorpg's from asia, nothing new maded in the usa, yes there are a lot of kickstarter mmo that never came out, and when they do, these are already dead.
"Last month we saw Phantasy Star Online 2 New Genesis hit PC and Xbox, while The Elder Scrolls Online: Blackwood and World of Warcaft: The Burning Crusade Classic also released. "
"Eve Online"
Asian, Ok ya got ONE, the mmo that's killing mmos, and one that's super niche. Ok.
I don't think MMO's are dead. I think the PVE genre is stagnant. The problem is we don't have developers making mmos for the gamer anymore. They are making them in hopes of getting rich. Its why we only see cookie cutter molds for the most part.
Have you noticed that almost every solo fight in an mmo is over now within about 5 seconds. Where is the adventure in that? Does an encounter have to be as slow as original EQ was? No, but the fight shouldn't be over in just a couple hits either. We need Substance and quality in the MMO genre, not super speed instant gratification and reused creature models in the next zones.
The MMO genre has lost its way. Its all instant gratification with no meaningful consequences. Lets just rush the boss, if we die we just pop up right outside and do it again. No worries of any penalties. For all of Eqs faults and it has a crap ton of them, Back then you respected that character that you worked hard to build up. You know death has severe penalties tied to it. You respect the environment, you respect your guildmates that has each others backs. Every non town zone in that game was a potential death trap. It made you respect the environment you were in and keep your eyes open. Not half play the game while your watching youtube videos.
Now I'm not saying that the MMO genre has to go back to that much torture. I'm old now, I can't devote 10 hours for corpse runs anymore but the current penalties in today's MMOs are just laughable. There is nothing there to force you to respect the environment your in. I'm guessing here but, Nobody outside the original EQ has ever experienced true darkness in an MMO like original EQ. Even in full room darkness and gamma turned up to full, you barely saw 2 feet in front of you. You had to sacrifice an off hand for a torch and that only extended out the light reach a few more feet. You had no idea what creature was likely to pop out of the dark and attack you. It could be a brutal world, you truly adventured at your own risk. Instant gratification my butt. The thrill of getting caught off guard and spending 10 minutes battling for your life and you don't know where you are and then coming out victorious! Screw these 5 second fights, NO gratification there.
Dead to me. I always saw a MMORPG like a bank in a way, I'm investing a huge amount of my time to play it.. is the company respecting and valuing my investment? Pretty much every game released in the past 10 years my answer to that is no.
For me the biggest problem is that these games have no Guiding Principles, they don't have a defined north star that helps them make design decisions that is best for integrity of the game. They just make decisions.. many of which seemed to be aimed at getting more money from the players. In a odd way, many times they destroy their game before it even gets released.
I hope I’m around for the next big thing. I feel like the ingredients are there, we just need the right catalyst to take it to the next level somehow. I would hope that most players want to be part of something special or sacred; to be given an experience they can hang on to and reminisce about later on. It would be great to bring players together for a common cause that had actual meaning beyond not getting your land taken and your stuff stolen or destroyed.
Sometimes I feel like there are just too many player-types in the genre, because currently it seems like there is a very large group of players that think all of the above is silly. They play for the crits and the loot and thats it. I don’t know how to bridge that gap and make it worthwhile for both sides. It would seem easy to be like, ok this game is this way, and that game is that way, but there is usually a good deal of crossover, which is not only confusing for the players, but for the developers as well, I imagine.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
I will tell you what MMO's CEO's should do. Is ignore posters that like their product when their product is bleeding customers or is outright failing. Because these people have zero clue what is quality and what is not.
If they have anyone in their bubble that is saying their game is amazing while they are in this downswing. They better replace that person ASAP. Because these clueless people are hurting your product.
Once they make a solid product, those same people will still fanboy your game because they have no ability to judge a good product from a bad one.
They need to be listening to people that liked their game when it was on the upswing and doing well. Figure out why they liked it, and focus on what features they have seen in other games that are good and start incorporating those.
Comments
This is why vanilla or legacy servers can and do work, because MMO's have hit, what I would call a Wall. It all feels the same, and while some do put out new ideas, and build something really great, they are all, really mainly.. as they always have been.
Could MMO's be far more in depth? Sure.
There is no shortage of some really great ideas on how MMO's could be made batter on this forums, I have engaged in many of them, and enjoyed the discussions immensely, and every time I see things like "Design your Dream game"
I look at what some of the really good yet reasonable ideas that get put out, and I wonder why this is not happening.
So I agree, if feels like a whole lot more could be done, to really move MMO's to new directions and heights, and yet, no one is even trying.
Sadly, I blame WoW for that, they made this, what many consider the Perfect MMO, and the whole Genre has become stagnated because of it.
What an odd and random thing to say in this article.
They vast majority of people reading your article probably do not play Eve and would not have participated in this event.
It also doesn't highlight any positive aspect of Eve because it literally crashed the entire server.
Is that an enjoyable MMO gaming experience?
Not hardly...
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
It is in trouble, and it has stagnated, but it isn't dead. There is also great hope for the future, but it might take a while to get there.
Now, what an article like this really needs is facts. I know facts are incredibly hard to come by, especially to the public, but isn't it kinda the job of a journalist to search out the facts? This article just comes across as observational bias: it may be true, it may not, without any data you really can't back up that opinion.
As an absolute basic measure of the health of the MMO market, you could do a "Games Released By Year" chart.
It would be really important when doing this chart to make sure you include a column for "player cap" in your dataset. That way, if you include a game like The Division with a tiny player cap (i.e. not an mmo), then we can at least process the data ourselves and exclude the non-mmos.
This data should all be publicly available, so putting this chart together is doable, if a bit time consuming.
Follow that chart up with a similar one regarding expansions, comparing the number of expansions released that year with the number of mmos still in existence. Again, all that information should be publicly available.
If you were ever able to get hold of population data, that would be amazing. There is soooo much im curious about regarding genuine populations. But, studios long ago stopped releasing official numbers and I doubt you'd be able to convince everyone to hand over their numbers for a journalist.
If you wanted to get deeper into the numbers, I'd love to see some analysis of the different regional markets around the world. Europe vs NA vs Asia. Just how do those markets compare? How have they changed over time? Is the developer bias reflected in the player population?
Agreed. MMOs are still going well. However, the genre has branched out in different directions than expected or hoped for.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
There seems to be a major conflict between MMO and MMORPG......No doubt MMO is doing fine, but MMORPG? Not so much.
Wow is diliuting its own fan base due to lack of innovation and focus on the core of what made it great and these newcomers wil not get the sustained traction they need because they offer nothing new after the first 30 days.
Lets go Starcraft, Witcher, Diablo, Red Dead, GTA, Horizon Zero or other IP conversions to MMORPG - even Cyberpunk. We need fresh new IP experience rather than a rehash of warhammer tropes
To err is human....to play is divine
well, if that is a reason for you not to play em, here is the plot twist for you: most other genres are even older. shooockiiiiing!
people cry about mmos being dead since BC; and the only reason they did so: bc they didn't like a change that was introduced. let em cry, who cares. while the rest of us simply plays a game they like
uh and whoever thinks you can play a mmo alone... try getting into endgame next time
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
To be fair though, if anything is dead, it's the bandwagon so many game studios, publishers and investors jumped on during the MMOrpg boom of the mid to late 2000's
Which is a good thing, because man a lot of crap mmo's came out of that machine.
Fishing on Gilgamesh since 2013
Fishing on Bronzebeard since 2005
Fishing in RL since 1992
Born with a fishing rod in my hand in 1979
I don't think the MMORPG scene is dead. With the number of private servers kicking about with people trying to keep their favourite games and communities alive, I think it's just stagnated.
Making an MMORPG is a behemoth task and an expensive endeavour, as we've seen over the years with a pile of Kickstarters. I hesitate to say it's "easier" making games for other genres because making games is not easy in the slightest, but MMORPGs are on the harder end of the scale, guaranteed.
With the number of failures out there, it's hard to see why anyone would want to risk themselves financially and professionally to invest money and work into making one.
Yes that is actually the issue in my opinion. Sure a game like WoW is still bringing in big financials even with drops in subscription numbers. People are paying for services or buying mounts etc
There are other MMO's in similar positions.
I guess it all comes down to how long people will be willing to pay, for an old game with a shiny expansion. You would think someone might want a good new product by the time that happens... maybe it's decades away I don't know.
If you are happy playing one of these games, it's not an issue for you. If you aren't playing these games then you are just potential income no company is getting because they have no product for you. It's pretty simple.
I remember playing vindictus when I was younger and not even making it past season 1 content. Now they've made it easier and I've gotten all the way to season 3 and had fun doing it. And now I've hit a wall where I can't do anything without a party to carry me cause the content is too difficult. If only devs would let casuals be casual the whole way through and keep the hardcore stuff as side content for those who really like that stuff. Then I think the genre would really flourish.
"Eve Online"
Asian, Ok ya got ONE, the mmo that's killing mmos, and one that's super niche. Ok.
Have you noticed that almost every solo fight in an mmo is over now within about 5 seconds. Where is the adventure in that? Does an encounter have to be as slow as original EQ was? No, but the fight shouldn't be over in just a couple hits either. We need Substance and quality in the MMO genre, not super speed instant gratification and reused creature models in the next zones.
The MMO genre has lost its way. Its all instant gratification with no meaningful consequences. Lets just rush the boss, if we die we just pop up right outside and do it again. No worries of any penalties. For all of Eqs faults and it has a crap ton of them, Back then you respected that character that you worked hard to build up. You know death has severe penalties tied to it. You respect the environment, you respect your guildmates that has each others backs. Every non town zone in that game was a potential death trap. It made you respect the environment you were in and keep your eyes open. Not half play the game while your watching youtube videos.
Now I'm not saying that the MMO genre has to go back to that much torture. I'm old now, I can't devote 10 hours for corpse runs anymore but the current penalties in today's MMOs are just laughable. There is nothing there to force you to respect the environment your in. I'm guessing here but, Nobody outside the original EQ has ever experienced true darkness in an MMO like original EQ. Even in full room darkness and gamma turned up to full, you barely saw 2 feet in front of you. You had to sacrifice an off hand for a torch and that only extended out the light reach a few more feet. You had no idea what creature was likely to pop out of the dark and attack you. It could be a brutal world, you truly adventured at your own risk. Instant gratification my butt. The thrill of getting caught off guard and spending 10 minutes battling for your life and you don't know where you are and then coming out victorious! Screw these 5 second fights, NO gratification there.
Bring back true adventure and they will come!
For me the biggest problem is that these games have no Guiding Principles, they don't have a defined north star that helps them make design decisions that is best for integrity of the game. They just make decisions.. many of which seemed to be aimed at getting more money from the players. In a odd way, many times they destroy their game before it even gets released.
Sometimes I feel like there are just too many player-types in the genre, because currently it seems like there is a very large group of players that think all of the above is silly. They play for the crits and the loot and thats it. I don’t know how to bridge that gap and make it worthwhile for both sides. It would seem easy to be like, ok this game is this way, and that game is that way, but there is usually a good deal of crossover, which is not only confusing for the players, but for the developers as well, I imagine.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Yeah MMO's are innovating the heck out of Cash grabs, kickstarters, block chain, cash shops, loot boxes. SC, COE, CU are leading the pack.
What innovations do you suggest?
If they have anyone in their bubble that is saying their game is amazing while they are in this downswing. They better replace that person ASAP. Because these clueless people are hurting your product.
Once they make a solid product, those same people will still fanboy your game because they have no ability to judge a good product from a bad one.
They need to be listening to people that liked their game when it was on the upswing and doing well. Figure out why they liked it, and focus on what features they have seen in other games that are good and start incorporating those.