MMOs aren't dead, it's just that there isn't anyone doing proper and good MMOs at the moment. Final Fantasy XIV might be great for some people, but Asian looks and skill bloat are not my style.
Dead?... no. Drastically changed from it's original form?... absolutely.
I think if (and that's a big *if*) VR takes off, or if (another big *if*) a developer gambles a little before it takes off, that VR is the next evolution for MMOs. What makes more sense than your perpetual world being one that you can step into and see first person?
It really ISNT a big if. VR will happen once a game break the mold. We're getting close here with the tech just need someone to make THE game...
On that note VR is even more laughable,i have been waiting to see a developer give us the AAA game we deserve but instead of better games they try and sell us new gimmicks to make more money.
I suppose this is proof that you often trash things you seemingly know little about. Half Life: Alyx is a AAA game made exclusively for VR. No Mans Sky, Star Wars Squadrons, Fallout, Elder Scrolls, Valheim, Borderlands, Medal of Honor etc. All 100% functioning AAA VR titles.
There are currently a handful of small developers making VR titles. If one of them is even a little engaging, they will probably have close to a million instant subs. VR people want a big, persistent, multi-facet growing world to hang out in. And MMO fits all of those. I think it will do well.
Calling the 5 man dev team behind Valheim AAA just goes to show how refreshing and impactful they made what was otherwise just going to be yet another survival game.
5 man team? I didn't know that. That is pretty impressive. I think it's a great game.
Dead?... no. Drastically changed from it's original form?... absolutely.
I think if (and that's a big *if*) VR takes off, or if (another big *if*) a developer gambles a little before it takes off, that VR is the next evolution for MMOs. What makes more sense than your perpetual world being one that you can step into and see first person?
It really ISNT a big if. VR will happen once a game break the mold. We're getting close here with the tech just need someone to make THE game...
I would agree, but some feel 10-15 million HMDs sold is not "big" enough to say it's taken off. There are a few MMOs in the works that I am super interested in but nothing in the AAA category.
I still play games on a regular monitor a lot, more so than I play in VR... so I'm not totally lost in VR thinking it's the only way to game. I do think that the nature of MMO(RPG)s is perfect for VR. If you think about the movie Ready Player One, they are essentially in a virtual MMORPG with lots of different game options inside the "Oasis".
This notion that the game "were better" is ridiculously arrogant and out of touch with any logical analysis. Developers who actually think it was their game that made people play and trying to recapture that moment are hunting for fool's gold.
The games might not have been better, but the people playing them certainly were, imo. Sure, there were always elitist jerks in the games, but they got blackballed pretty quickly. These days the games are made for them; Loud-ass (wanna-be) alpha males have the developers’ ear, it would seem.
Post edited by Palebane on
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
What "used to be" would keep hundreds of thousands of players willing to spend $15 a month (many of which had more than one account) for years.
hundred of thousands of people.. lets look to why that is :
Limited choices to mmos' Limited gaming platforms for next gen content
Limited net access - i.e. Korea wasn't promement in the gaming industry until around 2003ish
Limited ideas on what mmo could be. Everquest : Fantasy
Asheron''s Call :Fantasy
Dark Age of Camelot : Fantasy
Anarchy Online : sci-fi
Ulitma Online : fantasy ect...
Limited computer performance.
Limited Server technology
Of course trhere was 100 thousand people playing these games in consolidated manner because the depth of the genre was very shallow.
This notion that the game "were better" is ridiculously arrogant and out of touch with any logical analysis. Developers who actually think it was their game that made people play and trying to recapture that moment are hunting for fool's gold.
Only a few old titles that imho worth revisiting like Crowfall which creates and captures shadowbane immense pvp which no other game is doing.
Star Citizen creating an entirely new sci-fi player experience.
New World, crafting and community components that push the player experience in immersive way.
ect ect.
Game like Camelot Unchained are out of touch with what players wants.
I think you missed the main point of my post there.
It wasn't that there were hundreds of thousands of players. It's that those hundreds of thousands of players kept playing the same game with a monthly sub, often with more than one account, for years. And not just years... many, for close to a decade.
You can't get people to play the same free MMO for more than a couple of months before quitting because they just don't have the depth.
The question at this point is, how many of the people that do play these free MMOs only play because they are free and there's nothing better to do and how many play them because they actually love the game.
Only a few old titles that imho worth revisiting like Crowfall which creates and captures shadowbane immense pvp which no other game is doing.
This made me almost spit out my drink reading this LOL.
You pick Crowfall the successor to Shadowbane as the only game of OLD worthy of remake? Why in the world would you ever think a game based on a game that had to shut down due to lack of population would turn out much differently. Shadowbane was pretty much on life support a year after launch. Crowfall is certainly following in the footsteps of Shadowbane, it racing to the "FINISHED" line even faster.
I will tell you what MMO's CEO's should do. Is ignore posters that like their product when their product is bleeding customers or is outright failing. Because these people have zero clue what is quality and what is not.
If they have anyone in their bubble that is saying their game is amazing while they are in this downswing. They better replace that person ASAP. Because these clueless people are hurting your product.
Once they make a solid product, those same people will still fanboy your game because they have no ability to judge a good product from a bad one.
They need to be listening to people that liked their game when it was on the upswing and doing well. Figure out why they liked it, and focus on what features they have seen in other games that are good and start incorporating those.
I am going to disagree with this, as a developer you need to focus on the people that like your game as it is.
This is a huge aspect of game development, because I have endured a few games that tried to throw a bigger net, or pull in players that claimed they were on the way out, and I have never seen this go well for them.
I have seen obscure games that have kept going for years, even decades, because they pulled their fan base close, the people that liked the game as it was, and focused on what would make them happy, building that core or loyal players, and ensuring that they built the best game for that group.
Sure, it might never be anything big, or great, or a wow killer, and there might be a revolving door of people that think the game sucks and are always on the out way, to run off to whatever, but, by focusing on their core, they keep their game stable.
It's like the story of the golden goose, and in a huge way, ignoring the people that are happy and playing your game as it is.. is a death note.
Look what happened to GW2, when they tried to go against that Core game population and cater to their hardcore crowed, and focus on raids and what have you, the game has been in decline since. Not dead, but slowly going down.
On the flip side of this, a game like LOTRO, has been holding strong for the last 16 years, and is a buggy ass mess in compairosn to GW2, they survive, because they focused on their core of gamers.
If you are going to toss your core fan base, and think you can keep just screwing around the game to appease others and that core will stay, that is a very faulty view on things.
Youe best bet, is find out what that core Fan base wants, and why they stay around, and serve that to them on a silver platter, be damned anyone and everyone else.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
What "used to be" would keep hundreds of thousands of players willing to spend $15 a month (many of which had more than one account) for years.
hundred of thousands of people.. lets look to why that is :
Limited choices to mmos' Limited gaming platforms for next gen content
Limited net access - i.e. Korea wasn't promement in the gaming industry until around 2003ish
Limited ideas on what mmo could be. Everquest : Fantasy
Asheron''s Call :Fantasy
Dark Age of Camelot : Fantasy
Anarchy Online : sci-fi
Ulitma Online : fantasy ect...
Limited computer performance.
Limited Server technology
Of course trhere was 100 thousand people playing these games in consolidated manner because the depth of the genre was very shallow.
This notion that the game "were better" is ridiculously arrogant and out of touch with any logical analysis. Developers who actually think it was their game that made people play and trying to recapture that moment are hunting for fool's gold.
Only a few old titles that imho worth revisiting like Crowfall which creates and captures shadowbane immense pvp which no other game is doing.
Star Citizen creating an entirely new sci-fi player experience.
New World, crafting and community components that push the player experience in immersive way.
ect ect.
Game like Camelot Unchained are out of touch with what players wants.
I think you missed the main point of my post there.
It wasn't that there were hundreds of thousands of players. It's that those hundreds of thousands of players kept playing the same game with a monthly sub, often with more than one account, for years. And not just years... many, for close to a decade.
You can't get people to play the same free MMO for more than a couple of months before quitting because they just don't have the depth.
The question at this point is, how many of the people that do play these free MMOs only play because they are free and there's nothing better to do and how many play them because they actually love the game.
I am old school. Meridian 59, EverQuest, Pretty much all the big ones after that. EQ being my favorite and one of the least favorites at the same time. Out of all the mmos that have came and went, not one has ever captured the true feel of adventure like EQ had.
With that said, I have went back to eq over the years and frankly its a shadow of what it once was. I have went back to many of my old mmos over the last couple years and I find that only 1 ever draws me back and I have as much fun in it as the day I first played the game. Thats GuildWars 2, I don't do pvp so that takes part of the game away right at the start. Now the question I have asked myself many times is, do I go back to it because its free? The answer to that is no and here is why and this is one of my biggest pet peaves of mmos.
With the exception of mounts, its still practically the same game as when it first came out. Meaning that expansions didn't render the entire pre-expansion game useless. This is something that happens in almost every mmo that brings out expansions. they double your power to make it possible to kill the extremely overpowered mobs they put in the expansions. Thus rendering the entire rest of the game useless as you are now so overpowered for it that you can now solo mobs that it took a group of 6 to be on their toes in order to beat them. And there is some of that in GW2 sadly. Their one saving grace is their leveling system. making you delevel when you enter an area, levels really makes a difference. Thats why I think GW2 has lasted all these years. Dont get me wrong, the mounts were a big deal and it totally overpowers certain overlook puzzles and whatnot but at least the entire game isn't ruined by it like every other mmo expansions.
As an old-school hardcore player of the past, I don't have issues with change. I actually enjoy the mmos being more casual player friendly. But none of them capture the true adventure of those old games. Its not because Ive gotten better at knowing mmo mechanics, its because they replaced the thrill of adventure for cash shops. Now they spend their time making cosmetic items for the cash shop instead of creating adventure.
I find it ironic that EverQuest who had very little questing in the game, had more adventure than all the super heavy quest laden games of today. I feel its because they focused on other things than making an adventure game and it truly shows.
Oh yeah? Tell me more MMORPG about all the non-MMOs you have to write about to try and keep this site going. lol
Besides a side comment about Magic: Legends every game mentioned in the article is actually an MMORPG. Or do we have a new, super specific, definition of that?
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Irrelevant to whom? It was and is a real experience. Maybe you just don't like the terminology.
so you are saying WoW had no baring on which way the genre went for a decade and a half ?
No. I think maybe I misunderstood you somewhere. I wasn’t disagreeing with your quote initially, but I kinda went off on my own little rant there, sorry. Wow certainly had a bearing. Early WoW was not the first time, but the most prevalent time period where I saw players leaving friendly helpful guilds for the more militaristic style. I’m not blaming the developers or the players, necessarily, just noting a personal observation on when things started to shift as far as player-types are concerned. If I had to blame any one thing, it’d be voice chat that really helped push things to min-max APM esport rotation hyper-speed.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
It really ISNT a big if. VR will happen once a game break the mold. We're getting close here with the tech just need someone to make THE game...
What changes in MMORPG gaming do you expect to come with VR?
To date every technical advancement has tended to improve them aesthetically but diminish them in complexity and often verisimility. One will be able to experience these games as never before, but how much will actually be available to experience and what will be the nature of it.
I'm not yet convinced they will be as revolutionary as many think.
Only a few old titles that imho worth revisiting like Crowfall which creates and captures shadowbane immense pvp which no other game is doing.
This made me almost spit out my drink reading this LOL.
You pick Crowfall the successor to Shadowbane as the only game of OLD worthy of remake? Why in the world would you ever think a game based on a game that had to shut down due to lack of population would turn out much differently. Shadowbane was pretty much on life support a year after launch. Crowfall is certainly following in the footsteps of Shadowbane, it racing to the "FINISHED" line even faster.
He said a few. For some reason you chose to read only one instead.
Coincidentally, Shadowbane has been brought back to mixed reviews. Apparently some still like or are at least nostalgic for it.
It really ISNT a big if. VR will happen once a game break the mold. We're getting close here with the tech just need someone to make THE game...
What changes in MMORPG gaming do you expect to come with VR?
To date every technical advancement has tended to improve them aesthetically but diminish them in complexity and often verisimility. One will be able to experience these games as never before, but how much will actually be available to experience and what will be the nature of it.
I'm not yet convinced they will be as revolutionary as many think.
Unless you've spent time watching how games have progressed in VR, it's a bit hard to explain. Maybe you have, I don't know.
Seeing how some VR games have handled spell casting is a good example. Orbus has you writing 3D runes in the air while The Unspoken has you go through a series of hand movements which change depending on the spell. Others simply have you use the controller buttons or have an in game popup menu or heads up display.
Melee is pretty straight forward but seeing how games like Skyrim integrated their attacks into VR was pretty cool. Rather than hold a button to charge an attack, you physically hold your weapon arm(s) up. To block/parry you physically hold your weapons and shield arm up. I'm sure than can add weapon movements to "use" specific styles.
This is above and beyond just being inside a full 3D world rather than looking at a screen.
maybe not dead, more UNdead, shambling lifeless corpses masquerading as life, which is my way of saying there aren't any out I at least feel any desire to play.
So are game innovations and gimmicks the same thing?
They can be.. like what started out as a gimmick can become an innovation..
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I love the genre right now. We have many very good mmorpgs to play with monetization models for everyone. MMOs are so popular that features that started here have seeped into other gaming genres. Sandbox survival, FPS MMO-likes, ARPG, co-op looters etc.
It's been like watching an injured person, apply micro-transaction bandages when they need "get back to basic" surgery for almost 5 years. Folks (including me) clinging to hope that THIS IS THE ONE to save ALL the ones flailing over the years. Then nothing. I think that nothing plunged into an awful pandemic is what we needed to get our jaded hooks out of pixel things & all start again - devs and players.
PUBG and Fortnite are as MMO-like as Minecraft. MMORPG's have never been more then niche apart from maybe a relatively short time during WoW's heyday.
Online gaming evolves in a lot more fluent way then what those outdated strict game categories allow. All the lines have been blurred by now.
If it comes to the niche within the niche, meaning the MMORPG's with proper simulated worlds, they are pretty much gone. And apart from a few boomers (including me) , no one gives a shit apparently. Fortunately for me, I love those newer survival games too (provided they let me run and configure my own server).
If it was possible to track every mmo and how many players are online 24/7, you'd see a huge increase in number over those in 2004 or even a decade ago.
I stopped playing other mmo's to 'rest up' for Pantheon:rof cuz i'd be playing that 18 hours a day!
Comments
Final Fantasy XIV might be great for some people, but Asian looks and skill bloat are not my style.
It really ISNT a big if. VR will happen once a game break the mold. We're getting close here with the tech just need someone to make THE game...
I would agree, but some feel 10-15 million HMDs sold is not "big" enough to say it's taken off. There are a few MMOs in the works that I am super interested in but nothing in the AAA category.
I still play games on a regular monitor a lot, more so than I play in VR... so I'm not totally lost in VR thinking it's the only way to game. I do think that the nature of MMO(RPG)s is perfect for VR. If you think about the movie Ready Player One, they are essentially in a virtual MMORPG with lots of different game options inside the "Oasis".
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
It wasn't that there were hundreds of thousands of players. It's that those hundreds of thousands of players kept playing the same game with a monthly sub, often with more than one account, for years. And not just years... many, for close to a decade.
You can't get people to play the same free MMO for more than a couple of months before quitting because they just don't have the depth.
The question at this point is, how many of the people that do play these free MMOs only play because they are free and there's nothing better to do and how many play them because they actually love the game.
This made me almost spit out my drink reading this LOL.
You pick Crowfall the successor to Shadowbane as the only game of OLD worthy of remake? Why in the world would you ever think a game based on a game that had to shut down due to lack of population would turn out much differently. Shadowbane was pretty much on life support a year after launch. Crowfall is certainly following in the footsteps of Shadowbane, it racing to the "FINISHED" line even faster.
This is a huge aspect of game development, because I have endured a few games that tried to throw a bigger net, or pull in players that claimed they were on the way out, and I have never seen this go well for them.
I have seen obscure games that have kept going for years, even decades, because they pulled their fan base close, the people that liked the game as it was, and focused on what would make them happy, building that core or loyal players, and ensuring that they built the best game for that group.
Sure, it might never be anything big, or great, or a wow killer, and there might be a revolving door of people that think the game sucks and are always on the out way, to run off to whatever, but, by focusing on their core, they keep their game stable.
It's like the story of the golden goose, and in a huge way, ignoring the people that are happy and playing your game as it is.. is a death note.
Look what happened to GW2, when they tried to go against that Core game population and cater to their hardcore crowed, and focus on raids and what have you, the game has been in decline since. Not dead, but slowly going down.
On the flip side of this, a game like LOTRO, has been holding strong for the last 16 years, and is a buggy ass mess in compairosn to GW2, they survive, because they focused on their core of gamers.
If you are going to toss your core fan base, and think you can keep just screwing around the game to appease others and that core will stay, that is a very faulty view on things.
Youe best bet, is find out what that core Fan base wants, and why they stay around, and serve that to them on a silver platter, be damned anyone and everyone else.
I am old school. Meridian 59, EverQuest, Pretty much all the big ones after that. EQ being my favorite and one of the least favorites at the same time. Out of all the mmos that have came and went, not one has ever captured the true feel of adventure like EQ had.
With that said, I have went back to eq over the years and frankly its a shadow of what it once was. I have went back to many of my old mmos over the last couple years and I find that only 1 ever draws me back and I have as much fun in it as the day I first played the game. Thats GuildWars 2, I don't do pvp so that takes part of the game away right at the start. Now the question I have asked myself many times is, do I go back to it because its free? The answer to that is no and here is why and this is one of my biggest pet peaves of mmos.
With the exception of mounts, its still practically the same game as when it first came out. Meaning that expansions didn't render the entire pre-expansion game useless. This is something that happens in almost every mmo that brings out expansions. they double your power to make it possible to kill the extremely overpowered mobs they put in the expansions. Thus rendering the entire rest of the game useless as you are now so overpowered for it that you can now solo mobs that it took a group of 6 to be on their toes in order to beat them. And there is some of that in GW2 sadly. Their one saving grace is their leveling system. making you delevel when you enter an area, levels really makes a difference. Thats why I think GW2 has lasted all these years. Dont get me wrong, the mounts were a big deal and it totally overpowers certain overlook puzzles and whatnot but at least the entire game isn't ruined by it like every other mmo expansions.
As an old-school hardcore player of the past, I don't have issues with change. I actually enjoy the mmos being more casual player friendly. But none of them capture the true adventure of those old games. Its not because Ive gotten better at knowing mmo mechanics, its because they replaced the thrill of adventure for cash shops. Now they spend their time making cosmetic items for the cash shop instead of creating adventure.
I find it ironic that EverQuest who had very little questing in the game, had more adventure than all the super heavy quest laden games of today. I feel its because they focused on other things than making an adventure game and it truly shows.
Proud MMORPG.com member since March 2004! Make PvE GREAT Again!
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
What changes in MMORPG gaming do you expect to come with VR?
To date every technical advancement has tended to improve them aesthetically but diminish them in complexity and often verisimility. One will be able to experience these games as never before, but how much will actually be available to experience and what will be the nature of it.
I'm not yet convinced they will be as revolutionary as many think.
He said a few. For some reason you chose to read only one instead.
Coincidentally, Shadowbane has been brought back to mixed reviews. Apparently some still like or are at least nostalgic for it.
Seeing how some VR games have handled spell casting is a good example. Orbus has you writing 3D runes in the air while The Unspoken has you go through a series of hand movements which change depending on the spell. Others simply have you use the controller buttons or have an in game popup menu or heads up display.
Melee is pretty straight forward but seeing how games like Skyrim integrated their attacks into VR was pretty cool. Rather than hold a button to charge an attack, you physically hold your weapon arm(s) up. To block/parry you physically hold your weapons and shield arm up. I'm sure than can add weapon movements to "use" specific styles.
This is above and beyond just being inside a full 3D world rather than looking at a screen.
I am completely happy as a fan of the genre.
Playing: Nothing
Looking forward to: Nothing
Online gaming evolves in a lot more fluent way then what those outdated strict game categories allow. All the lines have been blurred by now.
If it comes to the niche within the niche, meaning the MMORPG's with proper simulated worlds, they are pretty much gone. And apart from a few boomers (including me) , no one gives a shit apparently. Fortunately for me, I love those newer survival games too (provided they let me run and configure my own server).
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
I stopped playing other mmo's to 'rest up' for Pantheon:rof cuz i'd be playing that 18 hours a day!