I agree, Guild Wars is about teamwork, strategy, and skill. Most MMORPGs are about loot and level. Even if you lost equipment in GW, it wouldn't matter because even the items are balanced so that no one can just clean up on the merit of their gear alone.
Again, I have to draw parallels with Magic: The Gathering. You'll notice that most of the lingo of the game is almost identicle to M:TG. Metagame, build, mana hosed, etc. Half the PvP experience is over before you even set foot in an arena. If you don't plan ahead and work as a team, you'll be eaten alive. I don't know of any MMORPG that does that, and I've played quite a few.
Yes, it's the same as playing an FPS as far as risk goes. So maybe you think that Counter-Strike, Soul Calibur 3, Battlefield 2, and Age of Mythology are all carebear games too. In the end you have to ask yourself: are you in it for the PvP, or do you just want another prize? I'm into competition for the sake of competition. Winning is enough for me.
However, if you're going to do a persistant world MMORPG, Permadeath makes perfect sense. In a level-less, class-less game, permadeath makes you really take a second thought about ganking that player that you stumble upon out in the wild. It also helps balance the economy a little if you make the server "eat" whatever that character had in the bank. There are alot of benifits from permadeath in a persistant world. There aren't any for a fully instanced game like Guild Wars.
Originally posted by nexen The problem with your thinking is that the world you describe is inhabited by 2 people: You, and your killer.But we're talking MMORPGs here, and if you're playing one then you have to consider your fellow players. Sure, some people seem to like going completely solo, but at the end of the day if you choose to do that then you're at a huge disadvantage in a game based around player interaction. Really, in the situation you describe (ie. being killed by a veteran player and spending far too much time and effort just to be able to get revenge), you can seek help from your friends and your guild/corp mates. Failing that, you could even pay someone a little bit of cash to help you hunt down this player. Because despite the fact that someone who's "higher level" than you has a considerable advantage in a 1v1 fight, with a bit of initiative and teamwork you can take him down just as easily as he took you down in the first place.As soon as you stop treating MMORPG worlds like single player games, you'll realize how many different options you have to deal with the kind of "griefers" that so many narrow-minded people whine about every day.
My guild mates can't really grind my toons up or make my profession better. Maybe they can help me level up faster by teaming up and give me free gear or money, but they can't really make me "uber". The way I often see it, uber-ness is a prerequisite for PVP in a lot of MMO's.
You're also presuposing that the hypothatical killer can't just take on multiple members of my guild anyway (may not be true), and that my guild can afford to piss off him and his guild. What if he's in the ruling PVP super-guild and they just start destroying us on sight? Why would a more experienced player view it as a single player game any more than I would?
Also, you seem to be assuming a fast turn around. How long are members of my guild going to help me try to hunt down this guy? If its a small world then I guess its doable, or if he doesn't have a fast mode of transportation.
And then even if it all works... People call us gankers and approve of the actions of twink/high level.
Originally posted by Xpheyel The problem with your thinking is that the world you describe is inhabited by 2 people: You, and your killer.But we're talking MMORPGs here, and if you're playing one then you have to consider your fellow players. Sure, some people seem to like going completely solo, but at the end of the day if you choose to do that then you're at a huge disadvantage in a game based around player interaction. Really, in the situation you describe (ie. being killed by a veteran player and spending far too much time and effort just to be able to get revenge), you can seek help from your friends and your guild/corp mates. Failing that, you could even pay someone a little bit of cash to help you hunt down this player. Because despite the fact that someone who's "higher level" than you has a considerable advantage in a 1v1 fight, with a bit of initiative and teamwork you can take him down just as easily as he took you down in the first place.As soon as you stop treating MMORPG worlds like single player games, you'll realize how many different options you have to deal with the kind of "griefers" that so many narrow-minded people whine about every day.
My guild mates can't really grind my toons up or make my profession better. Maybe they can help me level up faster by teaming up and give me free gear or money, but they can't really make me "uber". The way I often see it, uber-ness is a prerequisite for PVP in a lot of MMO's. [/quote] I'm not saying you get them to grind up your toons. I'm saying you get them to go kill the PK with you.
You're also presuposing that the hypothatical killer can't just take on multiple members of my guild anyway (may not be true), and that my guild can afford to piss off him and his guild. What if he's in the ruling PVP super-guild and they just start destroying us on sight? Why would a more experienced player view it as a single player game any more than I would?
If he's in the ruling PVP super guild, and he's just killing random people chances are most of the server hates them. All it takes, again, is a bit of initiative from the targets and victems, and they can quite easily rally enough players to completely outnumber this pvp superguild. No matter how good they are, they can't take on an entire server.
Also, you seem to be assuming a fast turn around. How long are members of my guild going to help me try to hunt down this guy? If its a small world then I guess its doable, or if he doesn't have a fast mode of transportation.
That depends on the game. In reality, it's normally the guild/corp of this person who's targetted rather than the person themselves, in which case them killing you would have triggered a war with the guild, which could go either way. Also, in proper pvp games, there are plenty of ways of locating people. Eve has one of the largest game universes around, but it's very easy to track down a player anywhere in it using location agents. [quote] And then even if it all works... People call us gankers and approve of the actions of twink/high level. [/b][/quote] That's just crap, it isn't the sort of thing you see in real pvp games, and if you do it only comes from the biggest newbs in the game - anyone with any real skill and knowledge of the game considers that kind of whining to be about the lowest of the low.
Basically, it seems to me like your experience of pvp has been limited to WoW, or something similar. Try playing a game where real PvP is the focus, and you'll see a massive difference in how people behave.
Actually, when I played Dransik they could. And did. Everyone sought to curry favor with them because, frankly, they WERE unbeatable and their allies made them more so. They were eventually disbanded by the dev team. Also, at that point I couldn't get into a guild anyway. Too poor, too new, and too gimped. This discussion is kind of devolving into the same ol', same ol'. I'm sure that if someone implements a really good system and I get into a really good guild and I make a good toon, then I'll have fun in PVP. I've had one or two of those things happen at the same time, but never all three.
Ok so it would likely trigger a war if we went ahead and kept bouncing the killing ball back and forth. Isn't that just the Me vs. Him situation, writ large? If our newbie guild gets creamed, then we're ALL out on gear and money instead of just me?
By the way, I got sidetracked, but if recovering from getting set back is easy with a good guild then why is it an adrenaline rush to avoid getting set back? It sounds like you're not really getting significantly set back at all. Which would remove the point..?
[quote]Originally posted by Xpheyel [b]Actually, when I played Dransik they could. And did. Everyone sought to curry favor with them because, frankly, they WERE unbeatable and their allies made them more so. They were eventually disbanded by the dev team. Also, at that point I couldn't get into a guild anyway. Too poor, too new, and too gimped. This discussion is kind of devolving into the same ol', same ol'. I'm sure that if someone implements a really good system and I get into a really good guild and I make a good toon, then I'll have fun in PVP. I've had one or two of those things happen at the same time, but never all three. [/quote] That's not an arguement, that's just an example of terribly inbalanced mechanics. Things like that just don't happen in well thought-out pvp game.
Ok so it would likely trigger a war if we went ahead and kept bouncing the killing ball back and forth. Isn't that just the Me vs. Him situation, writ large? If our newbie guild gets creamed, then we're ALL out on gear and money instead of just me?
I was only using the guild/corp as an example of a pool of players that would be able to help you. If your entire guild is getting nailed then it's time to find another guild to ally with. [quote] By the way, I got sidetracked, but if recovering from getting set back is easy with a good guild then why is it an adrenaline rush to avoid getting set back? It sounds like you're not really getting significantly set back at all. Which would remove the point..?[/b][/quote] I never said that recovering is easy with a good guild, I just implied it's less painful. And generally much more satisfying and enjoyable.
After being decimated, how many people are going to want to be our allies opposed to the other guys' allies? This has gone from me getting killed by some guy, to what sounds like an almost server-wide war. I don't even want to be responsible for a group of my friends getting nailed, let alone my guild and all its allies...
This is kind of circular and pointless anyway, I'll certainly admit doing things in groups is more fun in MMOs, that applies to just about everything in most games (though I don't know about social money making, again that would depend on the game probably). But we're still back at me having to grind up/camp/money farm to get the same stuff over again on the same toon. Which I'm not going to find a lot of fun even with help (and after a couple repetitions neither are my guild mates). I think its back to what I said originally...
What I'd like to do know is to go back to the original discussion though, the whole thread has been colored by this old, oft-repeated (on this board at least) call for innovation. And by innovation, people mean some kind of PVP. Which isn't strictly speaking innovative anyway, as people always cite an older game when bringing this up.
If you're seriously going to look for Something Different, I'd like to see them toss out the D&D paradigm. D&D is great, but the market is saturated with fantasy style D&D. I'd like to see more exploration into the extremes. Full PVE games, full PVP games, instancing and more serious Sci-Fi and non-D&D fantasy. I just don't think hypothetical exercises will find the formula that will be able to stand up against the current set up (if anyone is actually serious about finding it).
Instead, people stifle innovation by DEMANDING EQ-like games... Goblin-and-Elf fantasy. Large PVE content. Some kind of limited PVP content.
XPheyel, nexen is actually quite right in what he says.
A good large and exceptionally complex freeform MMO in a peristent world doesn't get super pvp guilds that dominate entire servers. At least, it doe'n't happen in the one he plays now, Eve-Online at least.
I play Eve-Online, and I am in a corporation there (=guild in eve context) that if any of the corporations would be ranked top in the game in terms of pvp, would be ranked top in pvp or damn close to it. and that's not just combat pvp either. And we, nor most other corporations of that stature in the game, operat elike that. People in Eve seek justice against griefers or grieflike players like nexen would like them to. Except that large parts of the community prefer to hide and whine instead of taking that retaliatory action themselves, but that's because of a game design decision that rewards that and because of the fact not every player feels like doing that combat pvp even in a game which is focused on pvp in general. But corporations of the strength to force a stalemate on retaliation like you seem to indicate fearing, do not dabble in that behaviour in Eve Online. They have far better things to do. Griefers in freeform games like these tend to be gameplay failures, and not very sucesfull in the grand competition that goes on in those games. That's why they grief, instead of competing.
Anyway, I wanted to tell nexen that he should post on the Eve-Online forums more actually. He posts in quality, just not in enough quantity. And being someone that enjoys quality in quantity, I'd like to read more of what he has to say.
As for CCP selling out on you, don't be afraid. They won't, take my word for it. That doesn't mean some design changes won't change the balance of the game in ways you dont appreciate sometimes, but it does mean that CCP will never change the ideal the game represents. And you will always be able to recognise that in Eve Online. Shadowbane failed, even with my subscription money going to them, but Eve looks to become a success. In my opinion the game closest to what you preach, and looking games like Darkfall and DnL that might compete with Eve I'm still not overly worried that that will change soon. Both of those fail on key issues in my opinion.
Thanks Rod_B, completely forgot about this thread and must've missed your post first time round. A lot of the time I feel like making a post on Eve-O, but look at the state of the forum and just feel like it'd be drowned out anyway. I'm currently posting a fair bit over on the Vanguard forums (a game I'm looking forward to simply as a casual PvE game to unwind with after long pvp sessions in Eve) under the name 'coercion', although like with the Eve-O forums, there are far too many people who would much rather just take a side in some archiac argument (ie pvp vs pve) instead of discussing the theory, the bigger picture.
By the way, what corp are you in? I 'm in the newly formed 'kill-em-all' corp "0utbreak" (finally decided to give up the life of a mercenary), and we're currently causing all kinds of carnage down in Providence. I just hope I don't go and prove my own argument wrong by dominating the server, heh heh.
Great discussion, i've just spent an hour reading it all but forgive me if i don't remember everybodies points.
Firstly, I'm newish to MMORPG's and started with WOW which i do like and have found addictive dispite it's obyious flaws. I think there are plenty of good people playing WOW that are looking for something more like the original posters ideal MMORPG, especially if like me they have several toons to 60 or close.
I agree PvP is essential in an ideal MMORPG (even though i'm not much of a PvPer), but leaving justice for grieving to players is dodgy. Afterall, it's a game and people wouldn't be police if they weren't getting paid in real life! I think a stiff game penalty is required, and by that i mean jail time! The toon is banged up (ie can't be used for a length of time) and any items found on that toon that were marked as stolen returned to the owner.
Players that felt others had grieved them could add the name to a "murderers list" and if a number of people reported a toon in a certain period of time they could become "Wanted". Wanted toons would have a bounty on their head for other players to claim and would be attacked by NPC guards, when they got killed, popped in the slammer for a week. This system should work for level based games and skill based games, and a combat log would ensure that toons couldn't be reported without having killed the person reporting them.
All that fluff, ( wich was good I admit ), to point out that you want FFA PvP, and this is the only thing that make a persistent world?
Seeing as this is your only point and you did say the difference was indeed persistent worlds.
Yes, there are griefers in all games, but as long as all they can do is taunt me I can ignore them, sure it would be nice to be able to hunt them down and destroy them, but the way these people work had it been FFA PvP and I had even the sligthest chance of doing just that then I would never been bothered in the first place, cowardice is the second biggest trait griefers have, second only to a broken childhood.
"Well you get back at them another way, hire someone, chase them down when you are stronger or whatnot".
This is true, but why would I want to, or even have to?
Why spend time on something you do not even want to be a part of in the first place?
To me time is to precious to waste on idiots.
So EVERY game on the market needs FFA PvP, just so that small crowd can pick and choose any game they want and be sure it has the element they want and need?
I do play EVE, but not for its PvP, at least not yet, I have run into all forms of assholes that game have to offer, ( wich is a LOT ), and they are all of the same sort, they feed on attention and if you deny them that they wither away.
Revenge and retaliation is what they want, doing something I do not like so attention whores can have what THEY like is not my interpretation of fun, there are a zillion other people much more worthy of my time, I rather spend it on them.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I wasn't just going to say "GIEF FFA PVP!", I was making a case for my point of view, which I feel was reasonably good.
I'm not saying that every game needs FFA, I'm just saying that FFA is what allows MMORPGs to reach their full potential in terms of player interaction and a realistic society. I'm currently looking forward to Vanguard as a game to burn some hours with rich immersive PvE. But at the same time I'd really like to see a pvp game like the one I describe.
Originally posted by joereed1 Great discussion, i've just spent an hour reading it all but forgive me if i don't remember everybodies points. Firstly, I'm newish to MMORPG's and started with WOW which i do like and have found addictive dispite it's obyious flaws. I think there are plenty of good people playing WOW that are looking for something more like the original posters ideal MMORPG, especially if like me they have several toons to 60 or close. I agree PvP is essential in an ideal MMORPG (even though i'm not much of a PvPer), but leaving justice for grieving to players is dodgy. Afterall, it's a game and people wouldn't be police if they weren't getting paid in real life! I think a stiff game penalty is required, and by that i mean jail time! The toon is banged up (ie can't be used for a length of time) and any items found on that toon that were marked as stolen returned to the owner. Players that felt others had grieved them could add the name to a "murderers list" and if a number of people reported a toon in a certain period of time they could become "Wanted". Wanted toons would have a bounty on their head for other players to claim and would be attacked by NPC guards, when they got killed, popped in the slammer for a week. This system should work for level based games and skill based games, and a combat log would ensure that toons couldn't be reported without having killed the person reporting them.
Yeah, well, it depends.
I mean, it all depends on the people playing the game. For a particular community, there might not have to be any in-built mechanics to discourage random pking. In other words, this community might be organised enough to deal with any troublemakers efficiently by itself.
Another community, however, might be slightly more chaotic, and without any mechanics to prevent random killing, the whole server would become a mess. So then it's a case of just adding some minor system (such as UO's murder count system, whereby you couldn't enter most cities if you randomly kill 5 people within x amount of time). If this does the trick, then good. If people still go around randomly killing everyone, and there's still complete chaos, just add a slightly harsher penalty, etc.
It all depends on how quickly the players establish their own rules.
Let's start out with an admission up front.. I don't like PvP. I've never been good at it. When they created the Trammel facet on UO, I went willingly and eagerly. I was, and still am, of the opinion that the people who call others "carebears" are nothing more than griefers and assholes not worthy of my consideration.
Now, all of that said? Trammel and the later "Consensual PvP" facets are what killed UO. I hated PKs at the time. I hated having my fun ruined by some jerk, and all of the stuff I'd gained stolen away from me. Now, it was never incredibly painful to recover once I learned to not carry too many valuables, because even magic items weren't incredibly powerful. But I hated them.
Looking back though, my best times in UO were pre-Trammel. The exhilaration I felt when I escaped some PK's trap. The sheer, unbridled unholy joy I felt when I fought back, and actually killed the PK. The tension between my shoulderblades as I hunted in areas known to be frequented by PKs. The pride I felt when I organized a sect within my guild as anti-PKs, and planned training programs to go against common PK tactics.. And it worked. The real trust I had to have in friends to go hunting with them.. And when that trust was true, I'd die and find they'd flagged themselves as a criminal to recover my stuff before someone else could take it.
As much as I hated PKs, and as much as I sucked ASS at PvP, I miss those days immensely.
I think you have some good points about "addiction" in MMO's. Although I think this is an oversimplification of things. Some people are "addicted" and some are just heavily invested and havn't embraced the concet of cutting your losses.
It is true that some of these games rely on addictive mechanics (random positive reinforcement etc.). However there are other things going on as well. MMO are very expensive and therefore can encourage extreme conservativism and lack of innovation.
In the case of WoW, IMO, it is further complicated by extreme arrogance. I read the WoW forum eve nthough I quit that game in Feb. They move fast and I have an academic interest in game's and their design (software engineer . I have noticed the CM's have gotten, well, pissy and even go so far as to maks Blizzard's failings as forum poster's faults.
Drysc actually had the nerve to accuse PvP posters of being "impatient" considering they have been waiting a year and Blizzard has admited their system has majopr flaws this was pretty amazing to me. Tseric made a statement that showed a complete lack of knowledge and when a bunch of people called him on it he just made a snide comment meant to imply those people were the ones who were the problem. Watching/reading interviews with some devs (not Chilton, his interview was pretty good) just reinforces my view of this. And really they can probably keep going this way forever, because the "addicts" will keep playing and the fanbois will flame anyone who doesn't fall in line and march like a zombie. Granted forums are often filled with silly complaints and can get frustrating and depressing, but there are also many valid and useful points as well.
When you combine this with the tendency of some "interest groups" in the player base you can get a pretty bad mix sometimes. PvP'ers and Raiders are two of the more well known interest groups. They also tend to be some of the most intolerant and controlling. Both groups seem to have extremely vocal representitives who try to destroy or marginalize anyone who disagrees with them. Perhaps they are simply giving a more reasonable majority a bad name, but well that doesn't really matter since that is not the effect. And I say this as someone who likes to PvP.
Also innovation is often not really rewarded even by people who ask for it. Look at Auto Assault, it has collision, a real physics engine, destrucible environment, and major use speed/acceleration. All things that are unique or very rare in an MMO. Yet what do a bunch of people complain about? The auction house has not been put in yet. I'm not syaing AA is perfect, but really innovation is mostly seen as a "nice to have" for many people and is not heavily rewarded. No matter how much people want something shiny and new they will throw a hissy fit if you do not give them the comfortable and old as well.
Comments
I agree, Guild Wars is about teamwork, strategy, and skill. Most MMORPGs are about loot and level. Even if you lost equipment in GW, it wouldn't matter because even the items are balanced so that no one can just clean up on the merit of their gear alone.
Again, I have to draw parallels with Magic: The Gathering. You'll notice that most of the lingo of the game is almost identicle to M:TG. Metagame, build, mana hosed, etc. Half the PvP experience is over before you even set foot in an arena. If you don't plan ahead and work as a team, you'll be eaten alive. I don't know of any MMORPG that does that, and I've played quite a few.
Yes, it's the same as playing an FPS as far as risk goes. So maybe you think that Counter-Strike, Soul Calibur 3, Battlefield 2, and Age of Mythology are all carebear games too. In the end you have to ask yourself: are you in it for the PvP, or do you just want another prize? I'm into competition for the sake of competition. Winning is enough for me.
However, if you're going to do a persistant world MMORPG, Permadeath makes perfect sense. In a level-less, class-less game, permadeath makes you really take a second thought about ganking that player that you stumble upon out in the wild. It also helps balance the economy a little if you make the server "eat" whatever that character had in the bank. There are alot of benifits from permadeath in a persistant world. There aren't any for a fully instanced game like Guild Wars.
My guild mates can't really grind my toons up or make my profession better. Maybe they can help me level up faster by teaming up and give me free gear or money, but they can't really make me "uber". The way I often see it, uber-ness is a prerequisite for PVP in a lot of MMO's.
You're also presuposing that the hypothatical killer can't just take on multiple members of my guild anyway (may not be true), and that my guild can afford to piss off him and his guild. What if he's in the ruling PVP super-guild and they just start destroying us on sight? Why would a more experienced player view it as a single player game any more than I would?
Also, you seem to be assuming a fast turn around. How long are members of my guild going to help me try to hunt down this guy? If its a small world then I guess its doable, or if he doesn't have a fast mode of transportation.
And then even if it all works... People call us gankers and approve of the actions of twink/high level.
[b]
My guild mates can't really grind my toons up or make my profession better. Maybe they can help me level up faster by teaming up and give me free gear or money, but they can't really make me "uber". The way I often see it, uber-ness is a prerequisite for PVP in a lot of MMO's.
If he's in the ruling PVP super guild, and he's just killing random people chances are most of the server hates them. All it takes, again, is a bit of initiative from the targets and victems, and they can quite easily rally enough players to completely outnumber this pvp superguild. No matter how good they are, they can't take on an entire server. That depends on the game. In reality, it's normally the guild/corp of this person who's targetted rather than the person themselves, in which case them killing you would have triggered a war with the guild, which could go either way. Also, in proper pvp games, there are plenty of ways of locating people. Eve has one of the largest game universes around, but it's very easy to track down a player anywhere in it using location agents.[/quote]
I'm not saying you get them to grind up your toons. I'm saying you get them to go kill the PK with you.
[quote]
And then even if it all works... People call us gankers and approve of the actions of twink/high level. [/b][/quote]
That's just crap, it isn't the sort of thing you see in real pvp games, and if you do it only comes from the biggest newbs in the game - anyone with any real skill and knowledge of the game considers that kind of whining to be about the lowest of the low.
Basically, it seems to me like your experience of pvp has been limited to WoW, or something similar. Try playing a game where real PvP is the focus, and you'll see a massive difference in how people behave.
________
-nexen-
Actually, when I played Dransik they could. And did. Everyone sought to curry favor with them because, frankly, they WERE unbeatable and their allies made them more so. They were eventually disbanded by the dev team. Also, at that point I couldn't get into a guild anyway. Too poor, too new, and too gimped. This discussion is kind of devolving into the same ol', same ol'. I'm sure that if someone implements a really good system and I get into a really good guild and I make a good toon, then I'll have fun in PVP. I've had one or two of those things happen at the same time, but never all three.
Ok so it would likely trigger a war if we went ahead and kept bouncing the killing ball back and forth. Isn't that just the Me vs. Him situation, writ large? If our newbie guild gets creamed, then we're ALL out on gear and money instead of just me?
By the way, I got sidetracked, but if recovering from getting set back is easy with a good guild then why is it an adrenaline rush to avoid getting set back? It sounds like you're not really getting significantly set back at all. Which would remove the point..?
[quote]Originally posted by Xpheyel
I was only using the guild/corp as an example of a pool of players that would be able to help you. If your entire guild is getting nailed then it's time to find another guild to ally with.[b]Actually, when I played Dransik they could. And did. Everyone sought to curry favor with them because, frankly, they WERE unbeatable and their allies made them more so. They were eventually disbanded by the dev team. Also, at that point I couldn't get into a guild anyway. Too poor, too new, and too gimped. This discussion is kind of devolving into the same ol', same ol'. I'm sure that if someone implements a really good system and I get into a really good guild and I make a good toon, then I'll have fun in PVP. I've had one or two of those things happen at the same time, but never all three.
[/quote]
That's not an arguement, that's just an example of terribly inbalanced mechanics. Things like that just don't happen in well thought-out pvp game.
[quote]
By the way, I got sidetracked, but if recovering from getting set back is easy with a good guild then why is it an adrenaline rush to avoid getting set back? It sounds like you're not really getting significantly set back at all. Which would remove the point..?[/b][/quote]
I never said that recovering is easy with a good guild, I just implied it's less painful. And generally much more satisfying and enjoyable.
________
-nexen-
After being decimated, how many people are going to want to be our allies opposed to the other guys' allies? This has gone from me getting killed by some guy, to what sounds like an almost server-wide war. I don't even want to be responsible for a group of my friends getting nailed, let alone my guild and all its allies...
This is kind of circular and pointless anyway, I'll certainly admit doing things in groups is more fun in MMOs, that applies to just about everything in most games (though I don't know about social money making, again that would depend on the game probably). But we're still back at me having to grind up/camp/money farm to get the same stuff over again on the same toon. Which I'm not going to find a lot of fun even with help (and after a couple repetitions neither are my guild mates). I think its back to what I said originally...
What I'd like to do know is to go back to the original discussion though, the whole thread has been colored by this old, oft-repeated (on this board at least) call for innovation. And by innovation, people mean some kind of PVP. Which isn't strictly speaking innovative anyway, as people always cite an older game when bringing this up.
If you're seriously going to look for Something Different, I'd like to see them toss out the D&D paradigm. D&D is great, but the market is saturated with fantasy style D&D. I'd like to see more exploration into the extremes. Full PVE games, full PVP games, instancing and more serious Sci-Fi and non-D&D fantasy. I just don't think hypothetical exercises will find the formula that will be able to stand up against the current set up (if anyone is actually serious about finding it).
Instead, people stifle innovation by DEMANDING EQ-like games... Goblin-and-Elf fantasy. Large PVE content. Some kind of limited PVP content.
XPheyel, nexen is actually quite right in what he says.
A good large and exceptionally complex freeform MMO in a peristent world doesn't get super pvp guilds that dominate entire servers. At least, it doe'n't happen in the one he plays now, Eve-Online at least.
I play Eve-Online, and I am in a corporation there (=guild in eve context) that if any of the corporations would be ranked top in the game in terms of pvp, would be ranked top in pvp or damn close to it. and that's not just combat pvp either. And we, nor most other corporations of that stature in the game, operat elike that. People in Eve seek justice against griefers or grieflike players like nexen would like them to. Except that large parts of the community prefer to hide and whine instead of taking that retaliatory action themselves, but that's because of a game design decision that rewards that and because of the fact not every player feels like doing that combat pvp even in a game which is focused on pvp in general. But corporations of the strength to force a stalemate on retaliation like you seem to indicate fearing, do not dabble in that behaviour in Eve Online. They have far better things to do. Griefers in freeform games like these tend to be gameplay failures, and not very sucesfull in the grand competition that goes on in those games. That's why they grief, instead of competing.
Anyway, I wanted to tell nexen that he should post on the Eve-Online forums more actually. He posts in quality, just not in enough quantity. And being someone that enjoys quality in quantity, I'd like to read more of what he has to say.
As for CCP selling out on you, don't be afraid. They won't, take my word for it. That doesn't mean some design changes won't change the balance of the game in ways you dont appreciate sometimes, but it does mean that CCP will never change the ideal the game represents. And you will always be able to recognise that in Eve Online. Shadowbane failed, even with my subscription money going to them, but Eve looks to become a success. In my opinion the game closest to what you preach, and looking games like Darkfall and DnL that might compete with Eve I'm still not overly worried that that will change soon. Both of those fail on key issues in my opinion.
Thanks Rod_B, completely forgot about this thread and must've missed your post first time round. A lot of the time I feel like making a post on Eve-O, but look at the state of the forum and just feel like it'd be drowned out anyway. I'm currently posting a fair bit over on the Vanguard forums (a game I'm looking forward to simply as a casual PvE game to unwind with after long pvp sessions in Eve) under the name 'coercion', although like with the Eve-O forums, there are far too many people who would much rather just take a side in some archiac argument (ie pvp vs pve) instead of discussing the theory, the bigger picture.
Anyway here's the thread: http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54236 - although a couple of people caught on to what I was saying, the majority didn't seem to read/understand much of it at all.
By the way, what corp are you in? I 'm in the newly formed 'kill-em-all' corp "0utbreak" (finally decided to give up the life of a mercenary), and we're currently causing all kinds of carnage down in Providence. I just hope I don't go and prove my own argument wrong by dominating the server, heh heh.
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-nexen-
Great discussion, i've just spent an hour reading it all but forgive me if i don't remember everybodies points.
Firstly, I'm newish to MMORPG's and started with WOW which i do like and have found addictive dispite it's obyious flaws. I think there are plenty of good people playing WOW that are looking for something more like the original posters ideal MMORPG, especially if like me they have several toons to 60 or close.
I agree PvP is essential in an ideal MMORPG (even though i'm not much of a PvPer), but leaving justice for grieving to players is dodgy. Afterall, it's a game and people wouldn't be police if they weren't getting paid in real life! I think a stiff game penalty is required, and by that i mean jail time! The toon is banged up (ie can't be used for a length of time) and any items found on that toon that were marked as stolen returned to the owner.
Players that felt others had grieved them could add the name to a "murderers list" and if a number of people reported a toon in a certain period of time they could become "Wanted". Wanted toons would have a bounty on their head for other players to claim and would be attacked by NPC guards, when they got killed, popped in the slammer for a week. This system should work for level based games and skill based games, and a combat log would ensure that toons couldn't be reported without having killed the person reporting them.
All that fluff, ( wich was good I admit ), to point out that you want FFA PvP, and this is the only thing that make a persistent world?
Seeing as this is your only point and you did say the difference was indeed persistent worlds.
Yes, there are griefers in all games, but as long as all they can do is taunt me I can ignore them, sure it would be nice to be able to hunt them down and destroy them, but the way these people work had it been FFA PvP and I had even the sligthest chance of doing just that then I would never been bothered in the first place, cowardice is the second biggest trait griefers have, second only to a broken childhood.
"Well you get back at them another way, hire someone, chase them down when you are stronger or whatnot".
This is true, but why would I want to, or even have to?
Why spend time on something you do not even want to be a part of in the first place?
To me time is to precious to waste on idiots.
So EVERY game on the market needs FFA PvP, just so that small crowd can pick and choose any game they want and be sure it has the element they want and need?
I do play EVE, but not for its PvP, at least not yet, I have run into all forms of assholes that game have to offer, ( wich is a LOT ), and they are all of the same sort, they feed on attention and if you deny them that they wither away.
Revenge and retaliation is what they want, doing something I do not like so attention whores can have what THEY like is not my interpretation of fun, there are a zillion other people much more worthy of my time, I rather spend it on them.
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Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts.
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I'm not saying that every game needs FFA, I'm just saying that FFA is what allows MMORPGs to reach their full potential in terms of player interaction and a realistic society. I'm currently looking forward to Vanguard as a game to burn some hours with rich immersive PvE. But at the same time I'd really like to see a pvp game like the one I describe.
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-nexen-
I mean, it all depends on the people playing the game. For a particular community, there might not have to be any in-built mechanics to discourage random pking. In other words, this community might be organised enough to deal with any troublemakers efficiently by itself.
Another community, however, might be slightly more chaotic, and without any mechanics to prevent random killing, the whole server would become a mess. So then it's a case of just adding some minor system (such as UO's murder count system, whereby you couldn't enter most cities if you randomly kill 5 people within x amount of time). If this does the trick, then good. If people still go around randomly killing everyone, and there's still complete chaos, just add a slightly harsher penalty, etc.
It all depends on how quickly the players establish their own rules.
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-nexen-
Let's start out with an admission up front.. I don't like PvP. I've never been good at it. When they created the Trammel facet on UO, I went willingly and eagerly. I was, and still am, of the opinion that the people who call others "carebears" are nothing more than griefers and assholes not worthy of my consideration.
Now, all of that said? Trammel and the later "Consensual PvP" facets are what killed UO. I hated PKs at the time. I hated having my fun ruined by some jerk, and all of the stuff I'd gained stolen away from me. Now, it was never incredibly painful to recover once I learned to not carry too many valuables, because even magic items weren't incredibly powerful. But I hated them.
Looking back though, my best times in UO were pre-Trammel. The exhilaration I felt when I escaped some PK's trap. The sheer, unbridled unholy joy I felt when I fought back, and actually killed the PK. The tension between my shoulderblades as I hunted in areas known to be frequented by PKs. The pride I felt when I organized a sect within my guild as anti-PKs, and planned training programs to go against common PK tactics.. And it worked. The real trust I had to have in friends to go hunting with them.. And when that trust was true, I'd die and find they'd flagged themselves as a criminal to recover my stuff before someone else could take it.
As much as I hated PKs, and as much as I sucked ASS at PvP, I miss those days immensely.
It is true that some of these games rely on addictive mechanics (random positive reinforcement etc.). However there are other things going on as well. MMO are very expensive and therefore can encourage extreme conservativism and lack of innovation.
In the case of WoW, IMO, it is further complicated by extreme arrogance. I read the WoW forum eve nthough I quit that game in Feb. They move fast and I have an academic interest in game's and their design (software engineer
Drysc actually had the nerve to accuse PvP posters of being "impatient" considering they have been waiting a year and Blizzard has admited their system has majopr flaws this was pretty amazing to me. Tseric made a statement that showed a complete lack of knowledge and when a bunch of people called him on it he just made a snide comment meant to imply those people were the ones who were the problem. Watching/reading interviews with some devs (not Chilton, his interview was pretty good) just reinforces my view of this. And really they can probably keep going this way forever, because the "addicts" will keep playing and the fanbois will flame anyone who doesn't fall in line and march like a zombie. Granted forums are often filled with silly complaints and can get frustrating and depressing, but there are also many valid and useful points as well.
When you combine this with the tendency of some "interest groups" in the player base you can get a pretty bad mix sometimes. PvP'ers and Raiders are two of the more well known interest groups. They also tend to be some of the most intolerant and controlling. Both groups seem to have extremely vocal representitives who try to destroy or marginalize anyone who disagrees with them. Perhaps they are simply giving a more reasonable majority a bad name, but well that doesn't really matter since that is not the effect. And I say this as someone who likes to PvP.
Also innovation is often not really rewarded even by people who ask for it. Look at Auto Assault, it has collision, a real physics engine, destrucible environment, and major use speed/acceleration. All things that are unique or very rare in an MMO. Yet what do a bunch of people complain about? The auction house has not been put in yet. I'm not syaing AA is perfect, but really innovation is mostly seen as a "nice to have" for many people and is not heavily rewarded. No matter how much people want something shiny and new they will throw a hissy fit if you do not give them the comfortable and old as well.