When did Valheim become an MMORPG , which is what the article is about , also the AI in Valheim is pretty immersion breaking , I mean the fucking deer are dumb as rocks, along with most of the content , Its really immersion breaking for me when the AI is just that terrible across the game like it is in Valheim ..
Valhiem is not a mmorpg, people we're using its ambiance and simple graphics as an example and nothing more as far as I could tell.
Its equivelant to ..
What single player game has the best immersion ?
and we have bags of rocks yelling ..
" LOTRO "
" Nooo its ESO "
"what about WOW"
I am sorry my use of Valheim's immersion was off topic. I could have/ should have said perhaps Secret World or Dungeon and Dragons Online. Sorry to trigger
Lol dont apologize everyone understood the comparison. He had to get all technical and shit.
When did Valheim become an MMORPG , which is what the article is about , also the AI in Valheim is pretty immersion breaking , I mean the fucking deer are dumb as rocks, along with most of the content , Its really immersion breaking for me when the AI is just that terrible across the game like it is in Valheim ..
Valhiem is not a mmorpg, people we're using its ambiance and simple graphics as an example and nothing more as far as I could tell.
Its equivelant to ..
What single player game has the best immersion ?
and we have bags of rocks yelling ..
" LOTRO "
" Nooo its ESO "
"what about WOW"
I am sorry my use of Valheim's immersion was off topic. I could have/ should have said perhaps Secret World or Dungeon and Dragons Online. Sorry to trigger
Lol dont apologize everyone understood the comparison. He had to get all technical and shit.
LOl really if ..
MMORPG
or Not MMORPG
Is all technical for you , i dont know what to say .. Its really very simple
I do have a minimum threshold for graphics, so in that respect they are important. But, that minimum threshold is pretty low.
Gameplay is by far the most important thing to me. I'm here to play a game, to interact with them, and the methods by which I interact with the game are the main way in which i judge a game.
Scale of the multiplayer is next up - this is the massively multiplayer genre after all, this is the USP and so I care deeply about this. If the game doesn't make use of the fact that there are 100s of players, then the developer has made a game in the wrong genre and my minimal trust will be gone.
IP is next up. You can have the best graphics in the world, but if the IP isn't my thing, then I won't be interested (looking at you New World)
Art Style then becomes important. You can have a great IP and high graphics quality, but if you choose an art style that sucks, well, its going to ruin the experience. SWTOR was like this for me.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
Graphics matter to me, but less so than other elements of the game. If all other factors between two games were equal I would choose the one I find most aesthetically pleasing. If not, graphic superiority would hold little weight in their comparison.
I'd differ with the article's statement that MMORPGs came strictly from text based MUDS. Sure, the MUDs provided many of the MMORPG basic ideas (and some code, depending on who you believe). But I think the ultimate influence on MMORPGs was P&P RPGs and cRPGs. In the cRPGs, the graphics were a major portion of the experience, from Akalabeth onward. The push for quality visuals were even present in the pen-and-paper era. Who didn't want that cool mini-fig of their character? Ral Partha made bank on that.
Even with fading vision, I find that graphic appeal is still strong. I play a large number of 'ancient' games, probably more than the average MMORPG.com visitor. But I couldn't go back to the rudimentary wire-frame dungeons and pop-up monsters of games like Wizardry. My minimum standard for graphics is EQ1 -- something that is detailed enough to spark the imagination, but not totally reliant on my brain to provide the imagery.
I may be the other end of the spectrum, however, in that super resolution doesn't affect me that much. I just can't make out many of the fancy features that graphics card makers (and game developers) want us to believe are essential. Cluttered graphics, like massive numbers of spell effects or weapon effects, just irritate me. I almost always prefer effective graphics over flashy graphics.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
I really loved the graphics in Firefall. It was a mix of cell shading and Wow type look. I really thought the world looked amazing. And if Anarchy Online was totally free to play with all the expansions I would gladly play it again. Now game companies pump most of their budget into graphics because today that's all most care about. New World looks amazing but it's a crap game to me.
To me MMO's with cutting edge graphics is just stupid. Not all MMO players have top tier PC's to run them. You would think that devs would know this. So instead of making a MMO for everyone that cater to those players with high end PC's. They are just gimping themselves of making the most money they could be.
When did Valheim become an MMORPG , which is what the article is about , also the AI in Valheim is pretty immersion breaking , I mean the fucking deer are dumb as rocks, along with most of the content , Its really immersion breaking for me when the AI is just that terrible across the game like it is in Valheim ..
It isn't a MMORPG but ambience isn't dependent on game genre, so there is no reason why examples of it in discussion need be so confined. Ambience and immersion aren't the same thing nor must they be inextricably linked. That the deer are dumb doesn't negate the entirety of ambience and immersion of a game unless one's evaluation of such is solely tied to the quality of deer AI.
When did Valheim become an MMORPG , which is what the article is about , also the AI in Valheim is pretty immersion breaking , I mean the fucking deer are dumb as rocks, along with most of the content , Its really immersion breaking for me when the AI is just that terrible across the game like it is in Valheim ..
It isn't a MMORPG but ambience isn't dependent on game genre, so there is no reason why examples of it in discussion need be so confined. Ambience and immersion aren't the same thing nor must they be inextricably linked. That the deer are dumb doesn't negate the entirety of ambience and immersion of a game unless one's evaluation of such is solely tied to the quality of deer AI.
Ambience and immersion certainly is more of a challenge in an MMORPG , everything is more technically difficult to deliver in an MMORPG .. than an single/multi player game ..
And reading comp may help .. notice i said ..
" I mean the fucking deer are dumb as rocks, along with most of the
content , Its really immersion breaking for me when the AI is just that
terrible across the game like it is in Valheim .."
You understand .. all the AI is as stupid as the deer, so it breaks immersion ...
When did Valheim become an MMORPG , which is what the article is about , also the AI in Valheim is pretty immersion breaking , I mean the fucking deer are dumb as rocks, along with most of the content , Its really immersion breaking for me when the AI is just that terrible across the game like it is in Valheim ..
Valhiem is not a mmorpg, people we're using its ambiance and simple graphics as an example and nothing more as far as I could tell.
Its equivelant to ..
What single player game has the best immersion ?
and we have bags of rocks yelling ..
" LOTRO "
" Nooo its ESO "
"what about WOW"
I've played all those games solo, effectively making them single player games. Perhaps the rigidity of your mindset is more akin to a bag of rocks.
When did Valheim become an MMORPG , which is what the article is about , also the AI in Valheim is pretty immersion breaking , I mean the fucking deer are dumb as rocks, along with most of the content , Its really immersion breaking for me when the AI is just that terrible across the game like it is in Valheim ..
Valhiem is not a mmorpg, people we're using its ambiance and simple graphics as an example and nothing more as far as I could tell.
Its equivelant to ..
What single player game has the best immersion ?
and we have bags of rocks yelling ..
" LOTRO "
" Nooo its ESO "
"what about WOW"
I've played all those games solo, effectively making them single player games. Perhaps the rigidity of your mindset is more akin to a bag of rocks.
Lol.. really whether you play it solo or not , has nothing at all to do with the restrictions and challenges of developing for an MMORPG vs a Single player game ..
The smart kids know this ..
The other kids say stuff just like you just did ..
When did Valheim become an MMORPG , which is what the article is about , also the AI in Valheim is pretty immersion breaking , I mean the fucking deer are dumb as rocks, along with most of the content , Its really immersion breaking for me when the AI is just that terrible across the game like it is in Valheim ..
It isn't a MMORPG but ambience isn't dependent on game genre, so there is no reason why examples of it in discussion need be so confined. Ambience and immersion aren't the same thing nor must they be inextricably linked. That the deer are dumb doesn't negate the entirety of ambience and immersion of a game unless one's evaluation of such is solely tied to the quality of deer AI.
Ambience and immersion certainly is more of a challenge in an MMORPG , everything is more technically difficult to deliver in an MMORPG .. than an single/multi player game ..
And reading comp may help .. notice i said ..
" I mean the fucking deer are dumb as rocks, along with most of the
content , Its really immersion breaking for me when the AI is just that
terrible across the game like it is in Valheim .."
You understand .. all the AI is as stupid as the deer, so it breaks immersion ...
I chose to frame my response in the specificity of your initial example. I assumed that easy enough to extrapolate. Replace deer AI with all AI and my point remains the same, as in:
That the AI is lacking doesn't negate the entirety of ambience and immersion of a game unless one's evaluation of such is solely tied to AI.
Even in the particular case of the AI in Valheim being botched the other factors related to ambience and immersion remain.
When did Valheim become an MMORPG , which is what the article is about , also the AI in Valheim is pretty immersion breaking , I mean the fucking deer are dumb as rocks, along with most of the content , Its really immersion breaking for me when the AI is just that terrible across the game like it is in Valheim ..
It isn't a MMORPG but ambience isn't dependent on game genre, so there is no reason why examples of it in discussion need be so confined. Ambience and immersion aren't the same thing nor must they be inextricably linked. That the deer are dumb doesn't negate the entirety of ambience and immersion of a game unless one's evaluation of such is solely tied to the quality of deer AI.
Ambience and immersion certainly is more of a challenge in an MMORPG , everything is more technically difficult to deliver in an MMORPG .. than an single/multi player game ..
And reading comp may help .. notice i said ..
" I mean the fucking deer are dumb as rocks, along with most of the
content , Its really immersion breaking for me when the AI is just that
terrible across the game like it is in Valheim .."
You understand .. all the AI is as stupid as the deer, so it breaks immersion ...
I chose to frame my response in the specificity of your initial example. I assumed that easy enough to extrapolate. Replace deer AI with all AI and my point remains the same, as in:
That the AI is lacking doesn't negate the entirety of ambience and immersion of a game unless one's evaluation of such is solely tied to AI.
Even in the particular case of the AI in Valheim being botched the other factors related to ambience and immersion remain.
You realize that for some people , AI that bad will ruin there Immersion and the ambience of a game ...
a feeling or mood associated with a particular place, person, or thing : atmosphere
So yes terrible AI will ruin the mood and immersion of a game for some people ..
So to extrapolate your words.. Bad AI can " negate the entirety of ambience and immersion of a game" = true
When did Valheim become an MMORPG , which is what the article is about , also the AI in Valheim is pretty immersion breaking , I mean the fucking deer are dumb as rocks, along with most of the content , Its really immersion breaking for me when the AI is just that terrible across the game like it is in Valheim ..
Valhiem is not a mmorpg, people we're using its ambiance and simple graphics as an example and nothing more as far as I could tell.
Its equivelant to ..
What single player game has the best immersion ?
and we have bags of rocks yelling ..
" LOTRO "
" Nooo its ESO "
"what about WOW"
I thought Valhiem did an excellent job in the ambiance department. Things like making a forest feel creepy. And I would love for any mmorpg to make use of ambiance as skillfully as Valhiem seems to have done for me.
If I was making a MMORPG I would definitely be interested in someone who has that kind of natural skill in the ambiance department. Somebody who can work with so little and make so much.
Anarchy Online: I think we can all agree this has really bad graphics....Not quite stick man figures bad but the faces are downright awful....but....I really enjoy the world and the gameplay.
BDO: Great grpahics...Probably the best of any MMO I have played...Beautiful world....but....something is lacking....it bores me, especially after level 56....I guess I can only stare at eye candy for so long...I need adventure.
"How important are graphics to your enjoyment of an MMORPG? "
Yes absolutely!
"Does it matter, or do games need to push the envelope with better graphics with each new release?" Each new release/update Not necessarily, but every couple of years I think they should.
When did Valheim become an MMORPG , which is what the article is about , also the AI in Valheim is pretty immersion breaking , I mean the fucking deer are dumb as rocks, along with most of the content , Its really immersion breaking for me when the AI is just that terrible across the game like it is in Valheim ..
Valhiem is not a mmorpg, people we're using its ambiance and simple graphics as an example and nothing more as far as I could tell.
Its equivelant to ..
What single player game has the best immersion ?
and we have bags of rocks yelling ..
" LOTRO "
" Nooo its ESO "
"what about WOW"
I thought Valhiem did an excellent job in the ambiance department. Things like making a forest feel creepy. And I would love for any mmorpg to make use of ambiance as skillfully as Valhiem seems to have done for me.
If I was making a MMORPG I would definitely be interested in someone who has that kind of natural skill in the ambiance department. Somebody who can work with so little and make so much.
That's a skill you can't teach.
Imho
Yeah it is honestly tough to code. When the art department creates mockups and then the AD explains the look and feel of an environment it is sometimes hard to create a scene that captures what they want. It really needs to be designed from concept. I worked on a title years ago for console that was trying to go for a realistic look and the way the character and her hair was animated were supposed to convey a certain feel like the hair was a lifeform of it's own. We had the hardest time casting light to the surface of the hair and it just came off kind of flat. So the direction changed to create a stylized look and go with a cel shade that fit better and created the desired effect. Ambience is tough to create in any form but environmental is not the only way it is a tough thing to create for. Character and clothes and hair are also tough but when done right really lend themselves to selling a scene, world or character.
I think that's when the artist part really comes into play. How do you code emotion? feeling? senses?
Graphics are eye candy and dont effect game play. Most people, after the first day in one area stop caring or looking. There are some exceptions but you get my point. Its eye candy.
Immersion is helped by Graphics to a point but music and gameplay are way way more critical. I would say there is a minimal bar that must be met though. But as far as priority goes, its like number 5 on my top 5 as an example.
I think less time should be put into graphics and more into design and gameplay. It would likely do way better. I have played eve online since Beta. One of the things about Eve is in order to upgrade the game over the years, they had to completely disassemble code and create new code to be able to support those new tools or ideas. I think its more critical to get a strong base to build off of. You know what I enjoy about the immersion of Eve - not the graphics - the original music to this day. The only good thing I can remember about Conan - the music was awesome and immersive. Music more than graphics set the tone.
Currently I play New World. The world is very pretty but now that im in it for a month+...i rarely stop to enjoy the view until i get in a new area. After a few days it gets ignored again. What doesnt get ignored is the lack of Quests, depth of quests, story, mechanics, bug crushing, simple tools that should have been included such as salvage all after crafting 100 iron long swords etc.
It depends, there are many games that got remastered and maybe even remade where the older original version was a lot more immersive. Modern graphics look great, but as a result developers tend to remove the atmosphere/ambience by making the games brighter. I assume it is so people can appreciate the higher quality graphics, but it looks kind of boring when you can see absolutely everything even after dark.
On many older games, developers had to be creative with lighting and shadows to hide some of the uglier textures, resulting in a really immersive experience.
I noticed this on many of the comparisons Digital Foundry have done from older games vs modern versions of those games. Doom 3, Alien Isolation, Crysis, Mass Effect trilogy, to name a few.
When did Valheim become an MMORPG , which is what the article is about , also the AI in Valheim is pretty immersion breaking , I mean the fucking deer are dumb as rocks, along with most of the content , Its really immersion breaking for me when the AI is just that terrible across the game like it is in Valheim ..
Valhiem is not a mmorpg, people we're using its ambiance and simple graphics as an example and nothing more as far as I could tell.
Its equivelant to ..
What single player game has the best immersion ?
and we have bags of rocks yelling ..
" LOTRO "
" Nooo its ESO "
"what about WOW"
I've played all those games solo, effectively making them single player games. Perhaps the rigidity of your mindset is more akin to a bag of rocks.
Lol.. really whether you play it solo or not , has nothing at all to do with the restrictions and challenges of developing for an MMORPG vs a Single player game ..
The smart kids know this ..
The other kids say stuff just like you just did ..
We should all strive to not be the other kid
It is true that my play habits have nothing to do with that needed for a MMORPG to concurrently accommodate a massive number of players.
It is also true that needed to accommodate such isn't something I need concern myself with in my use of a MMORPG as a solo game.
A smart kid would realize that before raising it as a factor.
Comments
The only games I could still play that have either average or worse than average graphics are those that I have played since way back then.
Getting into an MMORPG now-a-days for needs better than average graphics for me to consider staying around for a while.
I just really enjoy immersive scenery and I like to take Screenshots.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
It isn't a MMORPG but ambience isn't dependent on game genre, so there is no reason why examples of it in discussion need be so confined. Ambience and immersion aren't the same thing nor must they be inextricably linked. That the deer are dumb doesn't negate the entirety of ambience and immersion of a game unless one's evaluation of such is solely tied to the quality of deer AI.
I've played all those games solo, effectively making them single player games. Perhaps the rigidity of your mindset is more akin to a bag of rocks.
I chose to frame my response in the specificity of your initial example. I assumed that easy enough to extrapolate. Replace deer AI with all AI and my point remains the same, as in:
That the AI is lacking doesn't negate the entirety of ambience and immersion of a game unless one's evaluation of such is solely tied to AI.
Even in the particular case of the AI in Valheim being botched the other factors related to ambience and immersion remain.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
If I was making a MMORPG I would definitely be interested in someone who has that kind of natural skill in the ambiance department. Somebody who can work with so little and make so much.
That's a skill you can't teach.
Imho
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
You can't, you can only fool them
imho
Thanks for some really good insight Blue
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Immersion is helped by Graphics to a point but music and gameplay are way way more critical. I would say there is a minimal bar that must be met though. But as far as priority goes, its like number 5 on my top 5 as an example.
I think less time should be put into graphics and more into design and gameplay. It would likely do way better. I have played eve online since Beta. One of the things about Eve is in order to upgrade the game over the years, they had to completely disassemble code and create new code to be able to support those new tools or ideas. I think its more critical to get a strong base to build off of. You know what I enjoy about the immersion of Eve - not the graphics - the original music to this day. The only good thing I can remember about Conan - the music was awesome and immersive. Music more than graphics set the tone.
Currently I play New World. The world is very pretty but now that im in it for a month+...i rarely stop to enjoy the view until i get in a new area. After a few days it gets ignored again. What doesnt get ignored is the lack of Quests, depth of quests, story, mechanics, bug crushing, simple tools that should have been included such as salvage all after crafting 100 iron long swords etc.
It is also true that needed to accommodate such isn't something I need concern myself with in my use of a MMORPG as a solo game.
A smart kid would realize that before raising it as a factor.