What larger sense of purpose do you find in chopping digital wood exactly? Why do you play games at all if not for the joy or at least engagement of them? Do you think yourself as a some kind of a hero for enduring hours of repetitive mundane work in a video game?
Your' just not getting it. It's not about being a hero in a video game. It's exactly as I said above in my Lineage 2 example. The repeating of those money making quests was in and of itself not exciting but "the greater purpose" the greater goals was being able to afford better gear, and gear that was difficult to come by because it was so expensive.
It's the end goal that's what's desirable.
That's as straight forward as I can put it.
There is no greater purpose. Just because something takes long to do does not make it worthwhile doing. There is nothing to get - you enjoy mindnumbing grind of a mindless activity and that's it. The exact part you do enjoy is finishing a portion of it and receiving a reward for it. You enjoy it because finishing something gives you a pump of dopamine because your brain is wired to associate finishing something with pleasure no matter if it is meaningless or not. And you would not enjoy the same reward as much if the grind was not as long. The longer the miserable grind continues the higher the dopamine does when it is finished. And in fact the reward in those games is the ability to go on an even longer grind which would give you even more dopamine rush when finished. I am not missing a point - it is just that our brains do not work the same way and I don't get a kick out of doing mindless work for a long time and finishing it. And as I said before it is nice to have people that do get that kick because there is a lot of repetitive work out there that needs to be done.
What larger sense of purpose do you find in chopping digital wood exactly? Why do you play games at all if not for the joy or at least engagement of them? Do you think yourself as a some kind of a hero for enduring hours of repetitive mundane work in a video game?
Your' just not getting it. It's not about being a hero in a video game. It's exactly as I said above in my Lineage 2 example. The repeating of those money making quests was in and of itself not exciting but "the greater purpose" the greater goals was being able to afford better gear, and gear that was difficult to come by because it was so expensive.
It's the end goal that's what's desirable.
That's as straight forward as I can put it.
There is no greater purpose. Just because something takes long to do does not make it worthwhile doing. There is nothing to get - you enjoy mindnumbing grind of a mindless activity and that's it. The exact part you do enjoy is finishing a portion of it and receiving a reward for it. You enjoy it because finishing something gives you a pump of dopamine because your brain is wired to associate finishing something with pleasure no matter if it is meaningless or not. And you would not enjoy the same reward as much if the grind was not as long. The longer the miserable grind continues the higher the dopamine does when it is finished. And in fact the reward in those games is the ability to go on an even longer grind which would give you even more dopamine rush when finished. I am not missing a point - it is just that our brains do not work the same way and I don't get a kick out of doing mindless work for a long time and finishing it. And as I said before it is nice to have people that do get that kick because there is a lot of repetitive work out there that needs to be done.
One of my favorite things is the immersion of the world. Gathering resources within a world a very satisfying.
In Ryzom, you can hear the lonely wind swelling and fading as you find resources, avoid predators and essentially just "be." It's not so much "game" as immersive experience.
I like immersive experiences. I also don't like rushing.
In one Skyrim playthrough (and I've told this story before) my character married a woman down in Shor's Stone. I believe the ceremony is in Riften. In any case she said she would head to the home in Solitude (which is where my home always is) and I thought that any person who just married wouldn't be saying "ok cya there" so I walked with the npc from Riften to Solitude. It was one of the best gaming experiences as my sense of immersion and just "being" in the world, not rushing past it, was heightend. There were dangers along the way but it was very much its own thing.
I sort of think gathering resources within the same world the same type of experience.
maybe it's meditative.
But the point is that there is another axis of enjoyment, that sense of immersion of being in the world and not rushing. I imagine others have that same enjoyment and why they don't mind it so much.
But again your arguing against a type of game you wouldn't be playing. You sound like the anti pvp people who argue against forced pvp. There is nothing forced as the player willingly signs up for the experience.
Same with a survival game. It is what it is and attracts people who enjoy them for their own reasons.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Thanks! It looks like they've come a long way from release.
And it wouldn't be a Fallout game without the bugs, so I expected that part ha!
If I can catch it on sale I shall give it a go once I finish up God of War.
When the game first came out the survival mechanics drove me off as I spent all of my time just surviving, not enough time adventuring.
With assistance of long time players who shared how to mitigate these mechanics I had a far more enjoyable experience.
A year or so back Bethesda decided to change the eating and drinking to buffs which were much more optional especially doing overland content with properly geared characters.
The more survival minded folks didn't favor the change but most others like me did so worked out well in my opinion.
I spent 18 months there exclusively but like Torval I hit the burnout phase so moved on to ESO where I've been the past 10 months.
Truth be told, just hit CP1000 and starting to get restless, probably going to try Lost Ark next month if I can get a few friends to come with me.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
What larger sense of purpose do you find in chopping digital wood exactly? Why do you play games at all if not for the joy or at least engagement of them? Do you think yourself as a some kind of a hero for enduring hours of repetitive mundane work in a video game?
Your' just not getting it. It's not about being a hero in a video game. It's exactly as I said above in my Lineage 2 example. The repeating of those money making quests was in and of itself not exciting but "the greater purpose" the greater goals was being able to afford better gear, and gear that was difficult to come by because it was so expensive.
It's the end goal that's what's desirable.
That's as straight forward as I can put it.
There is no greater purpose. Just because something takes long to do does not make it worthwhile doing. There is nothing to get - you enjoy mindnumbing grind of a mindless activity and that's it. The exact part you do enjoy is finishing a portion of it and receiving a reward for it. You enjoy it because finishing something gives you a pump of dopamine because your brain is wired to associate finishing something with pleasure no matter if it is meaningless or not. And you would not enjoy the same reward as much if the grind was not as long. The longer the miserable grind continues the higher the dopamine does when it is finished. And in fact the reward in those games is the ability to go on an even longer grind which would give you even more dopamine rush when finished. I am not missing a point - it is just that our brains do not work the same way and I don't get a kick out of doing mindless work for a long time and finishing it. And as I said before it is nice to have people that do get that kick because there is a lot of repetitive work out there that needs to be done.
One of my favorite things is the immersion of the world. Gathering resources within a world a very satisfying.
In Ryzom, you can hear the lonely wind swelling and fading as you find resources, avoid predators and essentially just "be." It's not so much "game" as immersive experience.
I like immersive experiences. I also don't like rushing.
In one Skyrim playthrough (and I've told this story before) my character married a woman down in Shor's Stone. I believe the ceremony is in Riften. In any case she said she would head to the home in Solitude (which is where my home always is) and I thought that any person who just married wouldn't be saying "ok cya there" so I walked with the npc from Riften to Solitude. It was one of the best gaming experiences as my sense of immersion and just "being" in the world, not rushing past it, was heightend. There were dangers along the way but it was very much its own thing.
I sort of think gathering resources within the same world the same type of experience.
maybe it's meditative.
But the point is that there is another axis of enjoyment, that sense of immersion of being in the world and not rushing. I imagine others have that same enjoyment and why they don't mind it so much.
But again your arguing against a type of game you wouldn't be playing. You sound like the anti pvp people who argue against forced pvp. There is nothing forced as the player willingly signs up for the experience.
Same with a survival game. It is what it is and attracts people who enjoy them for their own reasons.
Except gathering resources in survival games is generally rushed because if you do not do it regularly you die so you cannot actually take your time to do what you want and instead you actually have to do menial jobs in order to play. Basically managing meters is actually the opposite of immersive because you are constantly reminded that you are in a game which you have to micromanage. The experience is not even meditative because you are constantly interrupted. You are constantly giving examples of immersive or relaxing gameplay or rewarding experiences in games that are not survival games. Not that I mind listening to your Lineage 2, Skyrim and Ryzom stories but those are not the games we are talking about at all.
Except gathering resources in survival games is generally rushed because if you do not do it regularly you die so you cannot actually take your time to do what you want and instead you actually have to do menial jobs in order to play. Basically managing meters is actually the opposite of immersive because you are constantly reminded that you are in a game which you have to micromanage. The experience is not even meditative because you are constantly interrupted. You are constantly giving examples of immersive or relaxing gameplay or rewarding experiences in games that are not survival games. Not that I mind listening to your Lineage 2, Skyrim and Ryzom stories but those are not the games we are talking about at all.
Well, I'm fine with being interrupted and prefer to have some danger in my world.
And yes, it's a good point, I'm giving most examples of games "other" than survival games. Truth be told the only two survival games I've really loved were Valheim and Conan Exiles.
However, I had to put both of them down as they take a LOT of time and I need my time for my Skyrim mod (see below). Not only finishing it but polishing it and getting it working on Special edition.
Once that task is over I fully intend to go back to my solo play of Conan Exiles and continue building my palace as well as continuing valheim.
I enjoy both games immensely but I don't have time to invest at this point in such long play sessions. That includes mmorpg's.
I mean I could talk about my time in conan exiles where I strayed too far for wood and was followed by an Alligator right back to the palace I was working on. running for my life I aggroed another alligator, barely got back to the palace and scrambled on the walls to take them out by bow.
My Ryzom story is precisely that, about gathering resources. I absolutely love being in the world and gathering resources within that lonely, haunting landscape among the danger. Not a survival game but the experience is similar.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I never heard of this game. but I hope it allows Open server worlds, so random players can join your world and vice versa. I hate how in 7 Days to Die pretty much all the public servers are password protected closed servers. Same with Valheim game. Since I had no real life friends to play with, I was stuck as a solo player.
Normally, "sandbox survival" game is code for no content, the players are supposed to provide their own content through PvP. But this game has no PvP?
Interesting.
not for the non MMO side of gaming. Its a totally different thing from MMO Sandbox. Skyrim for example is called a Sandbox, but if it was a MMO, it would be more of a Themepark MMO. As for Survival Sandbox, look at 7 Days to Die. You have a ton to do. I originally played it on the lesser PS4 version, and I had many months on that game.
I think in mmos' building your own based would be a great boon. Obviously this cant be done in the world but is possible in instanced areas. This is a great feature in survival games. Take the base building out of survival games and there isnt much there really, though i do like the genre.
Most mmo games you can buy houses and decorate them so its not a giant leap to create them from scratch after youve gathered all the materials of course.
for my buck i would also like to to see two things added to mmo housing.
1) a library where i can put all my skills and all my characters can access them. 2) ways to power up my skills that i can build in my house.
so if I want to build a wizards tower it should have all the functional bells and whistles. Stuff like grimoires, magic pools, cauldrons and stuff like that and they would be useful and work. Same way a rogue might build an archery range.
In Rift with its Dimensions, you could make your own buildings and decorate them. I had tons of fun. No future MMO wants to make housing with similar concept for some reason.
Except gathering resources in survival games is generally rushed because if you do not do it regularly you die so you cannot actually take your time to do what you want and instead you actually have to do menial jobs in order to play. Basically managing meters is actually the opposite of immersive because you are constantly reminded that you are in a game which you have to micromanage. The experience is not even meditative because you are constantly interrupted. You are constantly giving examples of immersive or relaxing gameplay or rewarding experiences in games that are not survival games. Not that I mind listening to your Lineage 2, Skyrim and Ryzom stories but those are not the games we are talking about at all.
Well, I'm fine with being interrupted and prefer to have some danger in my world.
And yes, it's a good point, I'm giving most examples of games "other" than survival games. Truth be told the only two survival games I've really loved were Valheim and Conan Exiles.
However, I had to put both of them down as they take a LOT of time and I need my time for my Skyrim mod (see below). Not only finishing it but polishing it and getting it working on Special edition.
Once that task is over I fully intend to go back to my solo play of Conan Exiles and continue building my palace as well as continuing valheim.
I enjoy both games immensely but I don't have time to invest at this point in such long play sessions. That includes mmorpg's.
I mean I could talk about my time in conan exiles where I strayed too far for wood and was followed by an Alligator right back to the palace I was working on. running for my life I aggroed another alligator, barely got back to the palace and scrambled on the walls to take them out by bow.
My Ryzom story is precisely that, about gathering resources. I absolutely love being in the world and gathering resources within that lonely, haunting landscape among the danger. Not a survival game but the experience is similar.
Managing meters and gathering resources is not dangerous. Even your story in Conan Exiles is about agroing a mob you did not notice, not about gathering wood.
I guess I don't understand why it is wrong for people to play games for different reasons.
If I'm tired I may want a simple resource gathering game with manageable monsters to kind of relax and blast away a few minutes.
If I'm bored I may want a mystery with keep character development and fascinating stories.
If I'm feeling competitive I'd jump into a PvP title.
It really isn't that difficult of a concept.
It is not. Just as it is not wrong to dislike what someone else likes or to like what someone else dislikes. Disagreeing about what makes a game good is not the same as not allowing people to enjoy what they enjoy.
So, let me summarize: YOU- the crown of creation- can judge the intellectual horizont and playskills of players of MMOs and Survival Games either. Sorry, but I think that exceeds your play, and irl skills by far (alone that fullquote..omg)
Most probably you didn't even play a single survival game in your life - or maybe carebear style with low or no hostile influences like NPCs or even real people - otherwise your "description how survival games work" would not be explainable.
I don't even think you ever played an MMORPG which is not themepark when looking at your post-history.
I guess I don't understand why it is wrong for people to play games for different reasons.
If I'm tired I may want a simple resource gathering game with manageable monsters to kind of relax and blast away a few minutes.
If I'm bored I may want a mystery with keep character development and fascinating stories.
If I'm feeling competitive I'd jump into a PvP title.
It really isn't that difficult of a concept.
It is not. Just as it is not wrong to dislike what someone else likes or to like what someone else dislikes. Disagreeing about what makes a game good is not the same as not allowing people to enjoy what they enjoy.
See it is not just a question of dislike or disagreement though is it. You question the people who like it like there is something wrong with it. See here
What larger sense of purpose do you find in chopping digital wood exactly? Why do you play games at all if not for the joy or at least engagement of them? Do you think yourself as a some kind of a hero for enduring hours of repetitive mundane work in a video game?
Seems to me that you want to mock his interest with your own analysis of what should bring joy and engagement. It's the whole tone and the way you constantly mock the players who try to explain why they enjoy it. It isn't just a question of disagreement when you make it personal.
So, let me summarize: YOU- the crown of creation- can judge the intellectual horizont and playskills of players of MMOs and Survival Games either. Sorry, but I think that exceeds your play, and irl skills by far (alone that fullquote..omg)
Most probably you didn't even play a single survival game in your life - or maybe carebear style with low or no hostile influences like NPCs or even real people - otherwise your "description how survival games work" would not be explainable.
I don't even think you ever played an MMORPG which is not themepark when looking at your post-history.
The only thing I've argued against is the value of repetitive monotonous grinding of mundane tasks that present no challenge.
I guess I don't understand why it is wrong for people to play games for different reasons.
If I'm tired I may want a simple resource gathering game with manageable monsters to kind of relax and blast away a few minutes.
If I'm bored I may want a mystery with keep character development and fascinating stories.
If I'm feeling competitive I'd jump into a PvP title.
It really isn't that difficult of a concept.
It is not. Just as it is not wrong to dislike what someone else likes or to like what someone else dislikes. Disagreeing about what makes a game good is not the same as not allowing people to enjoy what they enjoy.
See it is not just a question of dislike or disagreement though is it. You question the people who like it like there is something wrong with it. See here
What larger sense of purpose do you find in chopping digital wood exactly? Why do you play games at all if not for the joy or at least engagement of them? Do you think yourself as a some kind of a hero for enduring hours of repetitive mundane work in a video game?
Seems to me that you want to mock his interest with your own analysis of what should bring joy and engagement. It's the whole tone and the way you constantly mock the players who try to explain why they enjoy it. It isn't just a question of disagreement when you make it personal.
What you read is a disdain for the argument that grinding serves a greater purpose and that it is enjoyable when it does so. Also this is after a post where suicidal tendencies from repeated dull work are dismissed lightly so that's the "do you think yourself as some kind of hero" question comes from.
So, let me summarize: YOU- the crown of creation- can judge the intellectual horizont and playskills of players of MMOs and Survival Games either. Sorry, but I think that exceeds your play, and irl skills by far (alone that fullquote..omg)
Most probably you didn't even play a single survival game in your life - or maybe carebear style with low or no hostile influences like NPCs or even real people - otherwise your "description how survival games work" would not be explainable.
I don't even think you ever played an MMORPG which is not themepark when looking at your post-history.
The only thing I've argued against is the value of repetitive monotonous grinding of mundane tasks that present no challenge.
I think you'll find broad agreement with that idea. They don't call it 'grinding' because it is fun.
And yet I've been arguing about the grind's value with people who find it fun and relaxing across four forum pages
Comments
Like nobody.
We already have it all guys. We don't need anymore.
The only thing a survival game could get me to play it is if it had some straight up degenerate class smut. Then maybe for five minutes.
Survival games are in themselves pretty goddamned boring. Oh boy 50 bars to manage or i die.
And it wouldn't be a Fallout game without the bugs, so I expected that part ha!
If I can catch it on sale I shall give it a go once I finish up God of War.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
With assistance of long time players who shared how to mitigate these mechanics I had a far more enjoyable experience.
A year or so back Bethesda decided to change the eating and drinking to buffs which were much more optional especially doing overland content with properly geared characters.
The more survival minded folks didn't favor the change but most others like me did so worked out well in my opinion.
I spent 18 months there exclusively but like Torval I hit the burnout phase so moved on to ESO where I've been the past 10 months.
Truth be told, just hit CP1000 and starting to get restless, probably going to try Lost Ark next month if I can get a few friends to come with me.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
So, let me summarize: YOU- the crown of creation- can judge the intellectual horizont and playskills of players of MMOs and Survival Games either. Sorry, but I think that exceeds your play, and irl skills by far
Most probably you didn't even play a single survival game in your life - or maybe carebear style with low or no hostile influences like NPCs or even real people - otherwise your "description how survival games work" would not be explainable.
I don't even think you ever played an MMORPG which is not themepark when looking at your post-history.
Seems to me that you want to mock his interest with your own analysis of what should bring joy and engagement. It's the whole tone and the way you constantly mock the players who try to explain why they enjoy it. It isn't just a question of disagreement when you make it personal.