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My ideal class system
Rungar
Member RarePosts: 1,132
Im not a huge fan of hard classes in mmos because there very nature causes the game to revolve around balancing them against one another which is a waste of developer resources that could be used on new content. Consider my system for an action combat fantasy based mmo. I like a basic structure, but lots of flexibility within it. You can make whatever "subclass" you want in the theme.
Archetypes
I use a familiar archetype system that consists of three choices: Fighter, Mage, Rogue. Each one is a master at defending themselves a certain way.
In my system an archetype is defined and unique in how they defend themselves. I call this situational mitigation.
In this system mages gain great defense to magic, fighters gain great defense to physical and rogue's gain additional evasion. The other archetypes do not have any access to these core abilities.
each archetype is a 1/3rd of a pie and within that pie piece there are three slivers from left to right: offense, defense, utility.
on the edges of the offense and utility sections adjacent to another archetype players can select certain things from another archetype but doing so costs you your core defense.
Each archetype will have 99 points possible to collect. Each category can attain 33 points . As said above you can use up some of those defensive points dabbling into another archetypes edge areas instead. You can also shunt some points between offense and utility. You get these points when you find new skills and spells or complete achievements. You get the points round robin but the 4th point is choose-able.
Defense
Each archetype is equipped with a specialized defense. For example mages will all have a magic shield called aura that is really good at defending against magical attacks. There are a number of paths to take here including one for defending other players, raw mitigation of magical attacks, blocking magical attacks magical resistances, and other defensive measures with a focus on magic such as defensive pets. These defensive paths also have some for physical attacks and evasion but to a lesser degree. Each archetype has their own unique "gauge" and way to fill it which is used for archetype only abilities.
offense
In the offense pie everything is about modifying and enhancing skills especially weapon skills. Anyone can collect and use any weapon and any weapon skill ( or any skill) but each archetype modifies those skills differently. For instance most mages effects are centered around runes and elemental effects to improve a weapons magical potential. This is not as strict as the defense pie but is still slanted toward magic. Most offensive skills are centered around weapon skills but there are also offensive pets and standalone abilities. There are a number of paths available to improve your offensive output magically, if your a mage, with different effects and damage types available. Other archetypes are structured similarly. Note that each archetype uses base stats differently. Mages are primarily magic, fighters primarily stamina and the rogue is magic and stamina depending on the ability.
Utility
in the utility pie are the buffs, debuffs and crowd control and various forms of each one to select. For a mage these are all magical effects and like everything else mage are subject to various magical and elemental resistances. These are additive effects to skills you find. So if you have a certain crowd control spell, your archetype utility pie will help improve on that skill or skills.
Shunting and dabbling
As said above you can dabble in other archetypes using your defensive points, and you can shunt points between offense and utility. Dabbling lowers your archetype defense and shunting is limited to 12 points and has a cost to do so.
the other archetypes have the same setup but its unique to their flavor. So anyone can use any weapon albeit it will work somewhat differently, and archetype can have specific pets, and all archetypes have a selection of theme based buffs, debuffs and crowd control to choose from.
for instance where a mage might apply runes to a weapon, a fighter might apply technique to achieve a physical effect and rogues would have positioning to give them a situational effect ( like backstabs etc). Its the same weapon and skill, just used differently.
similarly where a mage might use a magical effect for crowd control, the fighter would have more martial means to achieve similar effects like a lasso or knockdowns. Pets would be unique as well. A mage would have magical creatures, fighters dog or wolf type creatures and rogues might have a stealthy cat like a panther etc. Most, but not all, things would be available in principle regardless of archetype, but in a unique form.
the end result is the flavor preference is more important than things like dps because your flavor determines how you defend yourself and to a slightly lesser extent how you do damage. This lets everyone be a damage dealer and specialist for certain kinds of defense and crowd control.
The difference is that it wont always work for every creature so there is a huge emphasis on knowing what your fighting compared to what you have to work with as each creature will have its own specific defenses and attacks which may or may not line up with what you have available. Some things will be easy, others very hard. Other archetypes might find that the opposite.
since each archetype is so specialized, others archetypes cant compete with that specialty and thus there will be less focus on inter class squabbling because its like comparing apples to oranges and pears. This lets us balances the game more robustly using the enemies instead of the classic nerfing cycle.
Archetypes
I use a familiar archetype system that consists of three choices: Fighter, Mage, Rogue. Each one is a master at defending themselves a certain way.
In my system an archetype is defined and unique in how they defend themselves. I call this situational mitigation.
In this system mages gain great defense to magic, fighters gain great defense to physical and rogue's gain additional evasion. The other archetypes do not have any access to these core abilities.
each archetype is a 1/3rd of a pie and within that pie piece there are three slivers from left to right: offense, defense, utility.
on the edges of the offense and utility sections adjacent to another archetype players can select certain things from another archetype but doing so costs you your core defense.
Each archetype will have 99 points possible to collect. Each category can attain 33 points . As said above you can use up some of those defensive points dabbling into another archetypes edge areas instead. You can also shunt some points between offense and utility. You get these points when you find new skills and spells or complete achievements. You get the points round robin but the 4th point is choose-able.
Defense
Each archetype is equipped with a specialized defense. For example mages will all have a magic shield called aura that is really good at defending against magical attacks. There are a number of paths to take here including one for defending other players, raw mitigation of magical attacks, blocking magical attacks magical resistances, and other defensive measures with a focus on magic such as defensive pets. These defensive paths also have some for physical attacks and evasion but to a lesser degree. Each archetype has their own unique "gauge" and way to fill it which is used for archetype only abilities.
offense
In the offense pie everything is about modifying and enhancing skills especially weapon skills. Anyone can collect and use any weapon and any weapon skill ( or any skill) but each archetype modifies those skills differently. For instance most mages effects are centered around runes and elemental effects to improve a weapons magical potential. This is not as strict as the defense pie but is still slanted toward magic. Most offensive skills are centered around weapon skills but there are also offensive pets and standalone abilities. There are a number of paths available to improve your offensive output magically, if your a mage, with different effects and damage types available. Other archetypes are structured similarly. Note that each archetype uses base stats differently. Mages are primarily magic, fighters primarily stamina and the rogue is magic and stamina depending on the ability.
Utility
in the utility pie are the buffs, debuffs and crowd control and various forms of each one to select. For a mage these are all magical effects and like everything else mage are subject to various magical and elemental resistances. These are additive effects to skills you find. So if you have a certain crowd control spell, your archetype utility pie will help improve on that skill or skills.
Shunting and dabbling
As said above you can dabble in other archetypes using your defensive points, and you can shunt points between offense and utility. Dabbling lowers your archetype defense and shunting is limited to 12 points and has a cost to do so.
the other archetypes have the same setup but its unique to their flavor. So anyone can use any weapon albeit it will work somewhat differently, and archetype can have specific pets, and all archetypes have a selection of theme based buffs, debuffs and crowd control to choose from.
for instance where a mage might apply runes to a weapon, a fighter might apply technique to achieve a physical effect and rogues would have positioning to give them a situational effect ( like backstabs etc). Its the same weapon and skill, just used differently.
similarly where a mage might use a magical effect for crowd control, the fighter would have more martial means to achieve similar effects like a lasso or knockdowns. Pets would be unique as well. A mage would have magical creatures, fighters dog or wolf type creatures and rogues might have a stealthy cat like a panther etc. Most, but not all, things would be available in principle regardless of archetype, but in a unique form.
the end result is the flavor preference is more important than things like dps because your flavor determines how you defend yourself and to a slightly lesser extent how you do damage. This lets everyone be a damage dealer and specialist for certain kinds of defense and crowd control.
The difference is that it wont always work for every creature so there is a huge emphasis on knowing what your fighting compared to what you have to work with as each creature will have its own specific defenses and attacks which may or may not line up with what you have available. Some things will be easy, others very hard. Other archetypes might find that the opposite.
since each archetype is so specialized, others archetypes cant compete with that specialty and thus there will be less focus on inter class squabbling because its like comparing apples to oranges and pears. This lets us balances the game more robustly using the enemies instead of the classic nerfing cycle.
.05 of a second to midnight
Post edited by Rungar on
Comments
to taking into account my other "ideal" posts it works like this:
you find a skill. You can augment that skill in certain ways including your archetype, your lair, your weapon, how you cast it, and reagents.
so skills start out more simple than in other games but there are a number of ways to get the most out of them. This system is more choice based than purely statistical. Each of the above will modify a spell or ability in some way and the effects can add up but there is usually a cost somewhere else for doing so.
The entire system is designed around you collecting specific skills and modifying them through various gameplay mechanisms to get the most out of them.
each way to stack it is unique. Your archetype will add things, your weapon will change the behavior if applicable, your lair research component will improve the base skill, and your casting types and reagents provide additional improvements.
Combined they give alot of possible build options considering you will be able to utilize a number of abilities and weapons in your build.
Player stats
Player stats are handled by the alternate advancement system which is achievement based and the equipment system. Everything is refundable. The only choice you have at character creation is race and archetype. Race starts you off with a preselected values for certain things but all these are overcom-able in the game.
this has a few categories: Guild(x3), Mind, Body, Soul, and Adventure, Crafting and Aquisitions. Completing achievements in these gives you access to specific things. For instance soul is determined by choices you make in the game. Whether you want to be good, evil or neutral.
Guilds, War, Adventure
You can join up to 3 npc guilds at a time and each guild has its own achievement system that gives you access to certain abilities and services. You can change guilds anytime you want but the "perks" go dormant when you are not active and you cannot gain achievements with them. consider them like an active quest of sorts.
War is related to the gameplay of the endgame warfront campaigns.
Adventure is basically discovery and completion of certain content which you could get an achievement for. Finding new places, finishing dungeons etc.
Mind, body, and soul
Each of these has their own achievement system as well.
Body represents physical attributes & achievements, mind represents mental attributes & knowledge gained (achievements) and soul represents your nature, good, evil, neutral etc. Body and soul interact with each other so gaining in one may limit the other.Soul interacts with in game factions and thus can affect guilds. For instance if you are evil you cannot join certain guilds. Likewise if your good.
Crafting and Acquisitions and grab bag
Crafting is related to crafting. Not just equipment but also furnishing and spell/ability research ( training devices).
Acquisitions is related loot acquisition and buying and selling. This includes things like treasure chests, drops, things you gather and things you buy and or sell. There are achievements to gain.
Grab bag is a random catch all achievement group.
Gaining achievements in each of these 9 categories gives you points to spend unique to each category and you can invest in various abilities and services. While guilds require an active component the rest do not and can be accrued at anytime.
Achievements are global and once you've earned the points on one character you can deploy them on any character. Your character's are just an extension of your "library" in your home which houses both skills and achievements. There is no need to regrind skills and achievements on each character. Everything earned is earned for the "house" and recorded in the library. Guilds work this way as well except you can only have 3 active per character at a time.
Each Archetype would have its own unique defensive system which is partly determined by the armor worn and defense pie but each archetype would also have a unique meter to utilize in this regard.
Mages would have an "Aura". This is an anti-magic shield that absorbs a certain percentage of magical attacks passively which depletes the meter. Through the archetype defense system you would gain other uses for this aura including absorbing spells to mana, magical blocking, some ways to shunt aura power to mana for offensive use and ways to manipulate your aura to increase or decrease your innate magical defense at the cost of the meter whatever way or attune it to a particular type of magic.
Fighters would have "toughness". This is a meter which combined with armor allows better absorption of physical attacks at the cost of the meter. This also can be used to increase health regen, shift power to stamina for offensive uses, reinforce blocking, and would power various defensive stances a fighter could use to defend themselves from physical attacks.
Rogues would have "positioning". This lets rogues move quickly and stealthily in short bursts to gain position over enemies. Every burst depletes the meter. This is like a stealth version of sprint and will let you get behind enemies un-noticed to set up for a backstab or other situational strike. You can also use this bar to increase sprint speed, enhance your jump, climbing, hide quicker and has certain evasive maneuvers available that will deplete the bar such as enhanced roll dodge. This also powers certain situational attacks. You can also use the bar to activate perception which will let you detect traps and other things while depleting the meter.
These "bars" work in tune with my situational mitigation system where each archetype has a specific specialty Mage: magic, fighter: physical and rogue: situational/evasive.
investing in the defense pie and wearing appropriate core armor improves these bars and offer additional advantages and abilities as you progress that are unique to that archetype. Thus mages are magic specialists and are best equipped to defend themselves from it. Against a wizard a mage character is a natural tank and can assume that role when they identify an enemy as such.
Likewise a fighter is a physicality master and is a natural tank against physical type creatures such as a berserker and can assume that role when the enemy is identified as such.
Rogues are a little different because they have no default mitigation magic nor physical and rely heavily on stealth and mobility. They can step in for very short durations and are best suited to tank ranged enemies through avoidance. They are not well suited for face tanking as their evasion abilities are very bursty and are very weak to effects which cannot be dodged.
This system will allow unique development of characters with a specific focus but also allows all players to dynamically choose roles for themselves based on the enemy they face. Sometimes the mage will be the best tank, sometimes the best dps and sometimes the best crowd controller. Sometimes it will be harder to figure out who is best for what.
The fighter and rogue will have similar situations where this is applicable.
I feel this will help flesh out players gameplay by giving them more to do situationally making their characters more robust, but also increase communication as you really need to know your enemy in this model to determine who steps up and when and that will require players to talk to each other.
Jack of All Trades, Master of None
A player should be able to learn and do everything but only be able to specialize in a few.
Attributes Mean Almost Everything
The reason that a mage can’t wear that armour is because he’s too wimpy and that warrior can’t cast that spell because he’s too damn stupid, he doesn’t have the intellect.
Skill Are Learnable And Forgettable.
The more you do something the better you get until you reach your zenith. When you stop, you lose the skill, both physically and mentally. Skill drop over time.
Pretty much everything else Imho is up for our imaginations.
For me that is the best foundation for a Class/Skill system.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Im not a big fan of attributes really other than the basic stuff. Everything in the game should be flexible and choose-able. For instance an elf might start with more magic than a human but not necessarily end that way or end with more if both worked at it. in my model Each archetype has their own core armor type by default with a little variation. No need to rationalize it imo.
i dont like skill use at all. Its a logical system but its no different than levels to me. I would much rather approach it from multiple smaller but strategic angles and let those add up. Your making choices instead of just grinding it out. Plus maintenance systems annoy the fuck out of people and they are about as viable as taxes in new world.
Vanguard did this exceptionally well. Some aspects of the game would completely vanish on certain classes, while being very important on others.
this gives you the benefits and structure of a class system with the freedom and versatility of a classless system.
i was thinking on putting in a unique "bar" for each archetype but wasn't sure how to do it yet. It is a good idea. I would likely tie it to the situational mitigation system so each archetype would have a special meter that makes them play differently from the others.
from what i've seen in mmo's a hard class system cannot be properly balanced so I don't agree with that premise. I also don't generally agree that your class should determine your skills. I prefer everyone have theoretical access to every skill but your class modified how you use that skill.
a fireball in the hands of a fighter might be useful for starting a campfire but in the hands of a trained mage its a deadly weapon.
You can do everything you want with it and it acts a little like a dual class system while maintaining player specialization which is necessary in my model since I don't use the classic tank/dps/healer model and instead use a dynamic role model.
i thought it was key that players could get a few things from other archetypes for versatility but it would cost them defensive ability. So as players mature and become good at the game they might have the skill necessary to make this work.
I just see drawbacks when trying to marry that system together with an MMORPG over the long term.
How do we stop things from getting stale?
Maybe we have just about gone as far as we can go with scripting?
Is the answer in making the world less stupid?
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
I want people to become experts at what they want to become experts at. And then when they become bored, I don't want them to abandon their character, I want them to have fun and morph their character into something that is hopefully catching their interest.
I always try to remember that games are really about entertaining people.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
i had the idea that in theory any archetype could use any skill or spell but it wouldnt be the same effect as when others use it.
for instance all weapons would have their own unique skills assigned to them. Anyone can use a weapon and use all the skills attached to those weapons.
the difference would be how your specific archetype modifies a skill and what situational factors come into play such as training devices, reagents and casting type.
so a staff can be used by a fighter and it might have a striking skill assigned to it, So in the hands of the fighter this skill becomes a strong martial attack combo.
in the hands of the rogue the same skill can become a crowd controlling attack that can trip up certain enemies.
and finally in the hands of a mage the staff the basic attack gets a magical component added to it in the form of fire etc and becomes a flame staff.
so anyone can use any skill and any weapon but how you build your character through the archetype process determines how that skill will ultimately behave.
thus the weapon skills would focus on particular kinds of basic strike forms such as stab, slash, sweep, crush etc. And the archetype options would finish the general action of the skill in their unique flavor.
This also applies to non weapons skills except the starting effect might be more particular and not linked to a weapon type.
So a fighter could pick up a gate spell and actually use it, but it might cost alot and might only get them home. The same gate spell used by a trained mage might have much more functionality on the cost, where the mage can go and how many can go through the portal.
as an extension of the archetype the training devices also provide targeted improvement of spells and abilities. So anyone can set up any device to improve a skill or spell but your archetype will provide specific incentives for you to get the most out of the device and thus the skill in the specialized flavor. So mages can use an archery range but wont get what a rogue would get out of it.
The overall idea is that skills start common but evolve according to your archetype and your choices as you play the game into something specialized.