My best guild experience was in Microsoft Links. Back then we used ventrilo to talk. I played more or less with the same group of guys / gals for 5+ years. Back then most guilds were tight with very few asshats. In my guild we were mostly top tier players so in team matches against weaker teams we would play at champ or elite level and they would play at pro to make it competitive or interesting. We ended up having a real life golf outing up in canada and 2 other guilds joined. It was a blast. Going across the Canadian border was interesting. The lady was like what are you here for and how do you know each other. We had IDs from from different states and tried to explain we play golf online and met up to cross the border. I am not sure if she bought the story, but she let us through. After Links folded some of us switched to shot online which was much more toxic. I played it for years and was able to compete with the top players, but it was just not the same. It also became a huge money grab game where if you did not spend lots of $$ for stat items it did not matter how good you were you could not compete. Some people got divorced over the game one guy lost his house, some were spending thousands of dollars. As far as traditional mmorpgs I rarely join guilds. Most treat them like jobs and you have to do this or that and donate so much $$ and what not. I do enjoy doing dungeons and what not, but don't want to be basically forced to do it.
Social media and monitorization nearly killed of good guilds, you can still find them but it is far harder these days.
Finding the right guild reveals a truism, the more time you put into something the more likely you are to get the result you want. So take your time, check their webpage, if they don't have one that's a question mark right there. But for you that might not be an issue, you need some information about them though or how will you make a decision?
I have never been in a bad guild because I do my research, even creating a new alt a couple of times to check the guild out before I joined with my main. Having to explain you were checking them out was hardly an issue, so why not?
But guilds need you to understand give and take, you need to be able to understand that or guilds are not for you.
Has the quality of guilds gone down? Yes, but then many factors have been set against them, social media and allowing you to be in multiple guilds online has fractured the guild base, MMO games being made more as one month wonders rather than a home to live in online. All this and more has had an averse effect on guilds, but these days I would not play a MMO unless I found a good one to join.
I don't know that I entirely agree with that, especially the research part. But I think you may be on point on this one. One month wonders. Wish I had thought of that.
I blame the need for external websites on the games lack of similar organization and scheduling features. Because the game doesn't have them, the only recourse is for a guild to make their own website. Imagine a game with built-in management tools for both players and guilds. I never liked the hassle of having to log in to a third party site to read their forums. Give me a single point of interface. Usually fewer security issues, too.
Whilst I am definitely on board for getting more guild features - like raid signups, dkp / sk, maybe a messaging board - put into the games, I am also a big fan of having an out-of-game portal to visit too.
For example, if I wish to sign up for a raid spot, I'd like to be able to do that out of game (as well as in-game) because logging into the game may not be possible. I might be at work, I might be on a business trip, I may simply not feel like logging in that night.
Then there is the issue of multi-game guilds. The guild I was part of for longest had branches in multiple games, at it's peak I think we had a significant presence in 4 MMORPGs as well as running smaller casual groups for some online shooters. In-game guild management won't help organise a multi-game guild.
What I think would be a good solution is to have guild management features built into the game, but then creating an API or similar so that guilds can plug that functionality into their own websites and have everything work out. That way, I can signup in game, or through the guild website, maybe even through the game's official website if they have the API implemented there too. That way, you are putting the choice into the player's hands and they can choose what works for them.
I think we have all seen MMOs with more guild functionality than others, but in this age of "Streamlining" I doubt we will see apps integrating websites and in-game as good as that would be. One of the ways I know a guild is right for me is they have a "we will play our way" attitude, regardless of what the game throws at them.
In the early years of WoW, I was in a rather competitive PvE guild. We were usually world's 6th or 7th. That meant, we had everything on farm, so we showed up Wednesdays, played for 2 hours and cleared everything, fast, clean, no drama, no hassle.
But, whenever any content was up, we had to take off from our lives, school, work, wives, whatever, and had to commit all of our waking hours to raids till we cleared the said new content. That meant, 16 hours of playtime, everyday, usually for 2 weeks.
Sometimes it dragged even more, a boss could become very frustrating. There were few bosses over the years that everyone called Guild-Killers, and for good reasons. Fucking Twin Emperors, or Twins in Sunwell, C'thun pre-nerf, vanilla 4-horsemen, Yogg, and lots of other badass motherfuckers that I can't recall.
Anyways, so imagine, you have been playing 17 hours a day, stuck at ONE SINGLE FUCKING BOSS, for 10 days straight. That was a nightmare. Sometimes I'd question life itself. Sometimes real life drama would drag into the Vent. Sometimes we fought each other. People left and we had wait for them to come back. The backups sucked so we had to kick them out, then we needed them again so had to beg them to come back. Especially back in vanilla where you needed 40 fucking people.
So yeah, being in such a guild, was a nightmare, during those 2-weeks. But when we finally got the kill, and could just chill for a few months, it was a great feeling. There was no other time in my life that I hated a group of people to their core, yet I loved them to death at the same time. We enjoyed each other's best, and had to tolerate each other's worst.
I guess it was sort of like the Walt Disney version of being in the army lol.
Constantine, The Console Poster
"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
<...> but I do think some players (I am not sure Rungar is one), see other players more as a problem rather than a resource for having a good game.
Guilty as charged!
The ratio of "asshats" to "fun loving" players has pegged highly into the asshats rule category. There are still some great players, but they're so outnumbered these days by asshats that I no longer even try
Yea, it's a "me" problem. I'm fine with that and will stick to single player games for now
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
<...> but I do think some players (I am not sure Rungar is one), see other players more as a problem rather than a resource for having a good game.
Guilty as charged!
The ratio of "asshats" to "fun loving" players has pegged highly into the asshats rule category. There are still some great players, but they're so outnumbered these days by asshats that I no longer even try
Yea, it's a "me" problem. I'm fine with that and will stick to single player games for now
I have learned that it really depends on teh game...I returned recently back to Anarchy Online and have met many very nice players....Very helpful and friendly...Sure theres an occasional person that will steal a kill or something but it is rare and the majority are good....I imagine if I went to New WOrld though that the playerbase would not be as friendly.....The older, more mature MMOs seem to have older, more mature players.
<...> but I do think some players (I am not sure Rungar is one), see other players more as a problem rather than a resource for having a good game.
Guilty as charged!
The ratio of "asshats" to "fun loving" players has pegged highly into the asshats rule category. There are still some great players, but they're so outnumbered these days by asshats that I no longer even try
Yea, it's a "me" problem. I'm fine with that and will stick to single player games for now
No, that's not a "you" problem. That's a gaming problem that arose from various design choices that catered to "me first" and "screw you" gamers, and even made that the most successful style of game play.
<...> but I do think some players (I am not sure Rungar is one), see other players more as a problem rather than a resource for having a good game.
Guilty as charged!
The ratio of "asshats" to "fun loving" players has pegged highly into the asshats rule category. There are still some great players, but they're so outnumbered these days by asshats that I no longer even try
Yea, it's a "me" problem. I'm fine with that and will stick to single player games for now
No, that's not a "you" problem. That's a gaming problem that arose from various design choices that catered to "me first" and "screw you" gamers, and even made that the most successful style of game play.
With the shifts in the player base they wanted to attract and the way they wanted us to play MMOs it is hardly surprising that people get pushed into solo.
In the early years of WoW, I was in a rather competitive PvE guild. We were usually world's 6th or 7th. That meant, we had everything on farm, so we showed up Wednesdays, played for 2 hours and cleared everything, fast, clean, no drama, no hassle.
But, whenever any content was up, we had to take off from our lives, school, work, wives, whatever, and had to commit all of our waking hours to raids till we cleared the said new content. That meant, 16 hours of playtime, everyday, usually for 2 weeks.
Sometimes it dragged even more, a boss could become very frustrating. There were few bosses over the years that everyone called Guild-Killers, and for good reasons. Fucking Twin Emperors, or Twins in Sunwell, C'thun pre-nerf, vanilla 4-horsemen, Yogg, and lots of other badass motherfuckers that I can't recall.
Anyways, so imagine, you have been playing 17 hours a day, stuck at ONE SINGLE FUCKING BOSS, for 10 days straight. That was a nightmare. Sometimes I'd question life itself. Sometimes real life drama would drag into the Vent. Sometimes we fought each other. People left and we had wait for them to come back. The backups sucked so we had to kick them out, then we needed them again so had to beg them to come back. Especially back in vanilla where you needed 40 fucking people.
So yeah, being in such a guild, was a nightmare, during those 2-weeks. But when we finally got the kill, and could just chill for a few months, it was a great feeling. There was no other time in my life that I hated a group of people to their core, yet I loved them to death at the same time. We enjoyed each other's best, and had to tolerate each other's worst.
I guess it was sort of like the Walt Disney version of being in the army lol.
I love mmorpgs, I love playing along side others. Their was a time if your not talking about mmo's I had nothing in common with you in real life.
Yet, I never went to this extent.... other than gathering some real life friends to play several hours a week I HAD CONTROL OF MY LIFE. Even when I was single.
Even with this smaller percentage of my time playing, I would be considered sick if I told anyone how much I played.
This is why I don't raid..... Their is a point that you have to live life.
People are living in their smart phones.... People are sicker than ever !
<...> but I do think some players (I am not sure Rungar is one), see other players more as a problem rather than a resource for having a good game.
Guilty as charged!
The ratio of "asshats" to "fun loving" players has pegged highly into the asshats rule category. There are still some great players, but they're so outnumbered these days by asshats that I no longer even try
Yea, it's a "me" problem. I'm fine with that and will stick to single player games for now
No, that's not a "you" problem. That's a gaming problem that arose from various design choices that catered to "me first" and "screw you" gamers, and even made that the most successful style of game play.
With the shifts in the player base they wanted to attract and the way they wanted us to play MMOs it is hardly surprising that people get pushed into solo.
They think they are catering to the players, but they are missing something. People are reluctant to participate with strangers, but still want to find those who they can consider "friends." (Loosely speaking.) "Associates/Associations" is a better word for it, especially on the internet, but also in many RL activities.
What MMORPGs are lacking is the variety of activities that allow many different people to "do their thing" with others who like "that thing" too. There needs to be depth in such things, there needs to be a wide variety of such things, and that's a big part of "Sandbox" in designing MMORPGs.
<...> but I do think some players (I am not sure Rungar is one), see other players more as a problem rather than a resource for having a good game.
Guilty as charged!
The ratio of "asshats" to "fun loving" players has pegged highly into the asshats rule category. There are still some great players, but they're so outnumbered these days by asshats that I no longer even try
Yea, it's a "me" problem. I'm fine with that and will stick to single player games for now
No, that's not a "you" problem. That's a gaming problem that arose from various design choices that catered to "me first" and "screw you" gamers, and even made that the most successful style of game play.
With the shifts in the player base they wanted to attract and the way they wanted us to play MMOs it is hardly surprising that people get pushed into solo.
They think they are catering to the players, but they are missing something. People are reluctant to participate with strangers, but still want to find those who they can consider "friends." (Loosely speaking.) "Associates/Associations" is a better word for it, especially on the internet, but also in many RL activities.
What MMORPGs are lacking is the variety of activities that allow many different people to "do their thing" with others who like "that thing" too. There needs to be depth in such things, there needs to be a wide variety of such things, and that's a big part of "Sandbox" in designing MMORPGs.
I agree with you but I don't think sandbox is the whole answer. If you gave players a fatigue penalty for too much combat which they had to go to a tavern to recuperate from you would see more player interactivity. Themepark systems can push interaction as well as sandbox "player interdependency".
the answer is skill capture with achievement based alternate advancement. Lots to do that doesnt require killing. Combined with npc guilds to form those loose associations and throw in a little light survival, everything you asked for is present.
sandbox isnt a cure all. You actually have to have systems.
<...> but I do think some players (I am not sure Rungar is one), see other players more as a problem rather than a resource for having a good game.
Guilty as charged!
The ratio of "asshats" to "fun loving" players has pegged highly into the asshats rule category. There are still some great players, but they're so outnumbered these days by asshats that I no longer even try
Yea, it's a "me" problem. I'm fine with that and will stick to single player games for now
No, that's not a "you" problem. That's a gaming problem that arose from various design choices that catered to "me first" and "screw you" gamers, and even made that the most successful style of game play.
With the shifts in the player base they wanted to attract and the way they wanted us to play MMOs it is hardly surprising that people get pushed into solo.
They think they are catering to the players, but they are missing something. People are reluctant to participate with strangers, but still want to find those who they can consider "friends." (Loosely speaking.) "Associates/Associations" is a better word for it, especially on the internet, but also in many RL activities.
What MMORPGs are lacking is the variety of activities that allow many different people to "do their thing" with others who like "that thing" too. There needs to be depth in such things, there needs to be a wide variety of such things, and that's a big part of "Sandbox" in designing MMORPGs.
I agree with you but I don't think sandbox is the whole answer. If you gave players a fatigue penalty for too much combat which they had to go to a tavern to recuperate from you would see more player interactivity. Themepark systems can push interaction as well as sandbox "player interdependency".
Nah these days they will go to the tavern and go afk or program a key to interact and go watch netflix.
<...> but I do think some players (I am not sure Rungar is one), see other players more as a problem rather than a resource for having a good game.
Guilty as charged!
The ratio of "asshats" to "fun loving" players has pegged highly into the asshats rule category. There are still some great players, but they're so outnumbered these days by asshats that I no longer even try
Yea, it's a "me" problem. I'm fine with that and will stick to single player games for now
No, that's not a "you" problem. That's a gaming problem that arose from various design choices that catered to "me first" and "screw you" gamers, and even made that the most successful style of game play.
With the shifts in the player base they wanted to attract and the way they wanted us to play MMOs it is hardly surprising that people get pushed into solo.
They think they are catering to the players, but they are missing something. People are reluctant to participate with strangers, but still want to find those who they can consider "friends." (Loosely speaking.) "Associates/Associations" is a better word for it, especially on the internet, but also in many RL activities.
What MMORPGs are lacking is the variety of activities that allow many different people to "do their thing" with others who like "that thing" too. There needs to be depth in such things, there needs to be a wide variety of such things, and that's a big part of "Sandbox" in designing MMORPGs.
I agree with you but I don't think sandbox is the whole answer. If you gave players a fatigue penalty for too much combat which they had to go to a tavern to recuperate from you would see more player interactivity. Themepark systems can push interaction as well as sandbox "player interdependency".
Nah these days they will go to the tavern and go afk or program a key to interact and go watch netflix.
You are no doubt right but I am sure there will be a way to detected and stop "Tavern Bot".
just make the nights terrifying aka kithkor forest or valheim and slap on a few light survival mechanics like sitting around a fire to rest. Thats the same as the tavern but you dont force it and can have a fire anywhere.
Nobody seems to stick around to make the experience worth it.
This is my experience in the last few years (decades?). MMOs today just don't offer me reasons to stay and play. With EQ, my guild kept me playing long after I would have quit. Once that guild dissolved I left. Same with WoW. We started losing players and eventually collapsed with the new "guild rules" that Cataclysm brought in. Soon after I left, too.
this is another reason why management of guilds needs to be taken over by developers. Games have alot more transient players now especially ones that dont have a sub. This is a huge problem for player guilds but is no problem at all for npc guilds that funnel players by interest.
That is a point. What many players seek out in gaming is some kind of "leadership", be it in a group, a raid, or especially guilds. Like PvP combat, players can add that extra "oomph" that AI just can't do. I see AI run guilds being quite similar.
I do like the idea of NPC run "job guilds" like a fighters guild or mages guild and such, similar to the "guilds" in the single player Elder Scrolls games
NPC guilds just hasten MMOs to becoming Massively Solo Online games. You are right, there are a lot more transient players, but NPC guilds will just make them even more transient.
Generally speaking if your solution to a change in human behaviour is to cater to that behaviour, all you will get is more of it.
my guess is that there is a giant number of players out there that already wont join guilds for whatever reason drama, don't like being fleeced, doesn't work for them, whatever reason.
Im not saying get rid of player guilds at all. Just put in both and let players decide which one is more useful to them. My guess is that there is a giant amount of people out there that want some basic structure to bring them into the sphere of likeminded players, but it has to be open ended, and on the players terms.
i dont think player guilds are doing a good job of it.
Nobody seems to stick around to make the experience worth it.
This is my experience in the last few years (decades?). MMOs today just don't offer me reasons to stay and play. With EQ, my guild kept me playing long after I would have quit. Once that guild dissolved I left. Same with WoW. We started losing players and eventually collapsed with the new "guild rules" that Cataclysm brought in. Soon after I left, too.
this is another reason why management of guilds needs to be taken over by developers. Games have alot more transient players now especially ones that dont have a sub. This is a huge problem for player guilds but is no problem at all for npc guilds that funnel players by interest.
That is a point. What many players seek out in gaming is some kind of "leadership", be it in a group, a raid, or especially guilds. Like PvP combat, players can add that extra "oomph" that AI just can't do. I see AI run guilds being quite similar.
I do like the idea of NPC run "job guilds" like a fighters guild or mages guild and such, similar to the "guilds" in the single player Elder Scrolls games
NPC guilds just hasten MMOs to becoming Massively Solo Online games. You are right, there are a lot more transient players, but NPC guilds will just make them even more transient.
Generally speaking if your solution to a change in human behaviour is to cater to that behaviour, all you will get is more of it.
my guess is that there is a giant number of players out there that already wont join guilds for whatever reason drama, don't like being fleeced, doesn't work for them, whatever reason.
Im not saying get rid of player guilds at all. Just put in both and let players decide which one is more useful to them. My guess is that there is a giant amount of people out there that want some basic structure to bring them into the sphere of likeminded players, but it has to be open ended, and on the players terms.
i dont think player guilds are doing a good job of it.
Rungar, I've been following your post on this topic for days and I think it's a load of crap. Sounds like our democratic government "people cant think for them self's so will think for them".
An mmorpg should be a world filled with things to do or a sandbox where the player builds the world. BOTH WAYS THE PLAYER SHOULD BE ABLE TO THINK FOR THEMSELFS.
I think your just trying to sell your idea just to see if you can.
I think you are being too harsh Delete, but I do think some players (I am not sure Rungar is one), see other players more as a problem rather than a resource for having a good game.
I'm more sure delete is one, to be honest.
And it's not just wild guessing... one just has to read his answers in this thread.
Respect, walk, what did you say? Respect, walk Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me? - PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
im a firm believer that a good environment will promote good behaviors so im all for engineering solutions where necessary.
for instance in eso everyone gets their own loot. There is almost no fighting over loot, with the rare someone else got what you needed but wont trade etc. loot is very harmonious in the game and people are usually very friendly about it because the environment is correct. Sometimes you have to do things like this and it works so good that people don't even notice it.
So while there are a few bad apples everywhere, how much you have to suffer them is really up to the design.
My problem with guilds. I like to play my way, don't get me wrong, I'm very social. But when I log on I'm in charge. I gather the people I need to do things and the stuff I'm going to do most often is what others want too but too shy to ask.
Also Guilds often have low populations and not enough players logged in at my level.
In all mmorpgs, they have social panels where you can find like minded players (at level). Everyone ignores this most important panel that games have to offer.
So to make a long story short. Guilds, not so important Friends list, yes
From years of experience, I've been told by many people they don't click with their guild.... Why?....people are not like minded. Because of this everyone is lacking in what they would like or need to get done.
Try this, randomly /ask someone, do you need any help ?... WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU DID THAT ?... most likely never Best way to make a friend !!
Guilds are good for chatting
Great points. I think guilds are great and we all need them just like a ship needs a harbor, or needs an anchor, BUT ships aren't meant to always stay anchored--that's why they have sails or paddles or engines to go to new places. I think you need to be a frequent user of your friends list and always welcoming to strangers. A guild's membership is going to grow a lot faster if you're making a lot of friends who aren't guild members. In the long run, this prevents things from becoming stale and will help to do raids or keep membership strong.
Even though I didn't always relate to people in my guilds, or often wasn't at level to group with them, I found that over time they grew on me and became acquaintances, even friends. Delete, keep your mind open to others outside your circle. One thing I can tell you is my friends lists have always beeen extremely important for creating groups to level with, but, conversely, are always changing, and i rarely long remember people on them. Contrastingly, I rarely forget the people in the guilds I've been committed too. That's not because they were all close friends, but because we needed each other for different reasons, we crossed paths often and we started to learn that people don't have to be like us or intimately tied to us--or at our level--to be "part of the family". That I think is an important lesson in getting along with others.
We need both. But the points you're making are solid ones.
I joined many guilds during my years of playing MMORPGs. I can honestly say I had very few bad experiences and mostly good ones. The only real bad one I can point to was in shadowbane. Given it was ffa (free for all) PvP, everyone is always extra paranoid about spies. They somehow felt I was a spy because of some coincidences and ended up kicking me from the guild. I of course was not a spy and the whole thing was very sour and hurt. But fortunately most of my experiences in guilds have been good. If anything, it was low membership that made me join other guilds. Players would stop logging in and the membership wasn't growing so whoever was remaining usually leaves.
I liked to believe the best about others. Is that part of it? Yet sometimes all too easy to believe the worst about myself. Don't let walls get built up in your mind between you and others, be them surrounding yourself or surrounding others. Breka them down, or as I do, ask the Lord to give you strength and wisdom. Don't let these things which amount to lies stop you from making friends or being part of a guild.
<...> but I do think some players (I am not sure Rungar is one), see other players more as a problem rather than a resource for having a good game.
Guilty as charged!
The ratio of "asshats" to "fun loving" players has pegged highly into the asshats rule category. There are still some great players, but they're so outnumbered these days by asshats that I no longer even try
Yea, it's a "me" problem. I'm fine with that and will stick to single player games for now
No, that's not a "you" problem. That's a gaming problem that arose from various design choices that catered to "me first" and "screw you" gamers, and even made that the most successful style of game play.
With the shifts in the player base they wanted to attract and the way they wanted us to play MMOs it is hardly surprising that people get pushed into solo.
They think they are catering to the players, but they are missing something. People are reluctant to participate with strangers, but still want to find those who they can consider "friends." (Loosely speaking.) "Associates/Associations" is a better word for it, especially on the internet, but also in many RL activities.
What MMORPGs are lacking is the variety of activities that allow many different people to "do their thing" with others who like "that thing" too. There needs to be depth in such things, there needs to be a wide variety of such things, and that's a big part of "Sandbox" in designing MMORPGs.
I agree with you but I don't think sandbox is the whole answer. If you gave players a fatigue penalty for too much combat which they had to go to a tavern to recuperate from you would see more player interactivity. Themepark systems can push interaction as well as sandbox "player interdependency".
Themeparks divide Players by their Levels. So even if they go to that tavern they aren't likely to form any new associations, unless they are actually looking to do that. Most aren't, it's just a mechanic in yet another Themepark game.
You need the Sandbox World where player interactions are much more open and widespread (and long term) for all Players, not just the hardcore who happen to stay on the same Level as they go through the game.
In short: Themepark divides Players, Sandbox forms long lasting associations, In most cases.
<...> but I do think some players (I am not sure Rungar is one), see other players more as a problem rather than a resource for having a good game.
Guilty as charged!
The ratio of "asshats" to "fun loving" players has pegged highly into the asshats rule category. There are still some great players, but they're so outnumbered these days by asshats that I no longer even try
Yea, it's a "me" problem. I'm fine with that and will stick to single player games for now
No, that's not a "you" problem. That's a gaming problem that arose from various design choices that catered to "me first" and "screw you" gamers, and even made that the most successful style of game play.
With the shifts in the player base they wanted to attract and the way they wanted us to play MMOs it is hardly surprising that people get pushed into solo.
They think they are catering to the players, but they are missing something. People are reluctant to participate with strangers, but still want to find those who they can consider "friends." (Loosely speaking.) "Associates/Associations" is a better word for it, especially on the internet, but also in many RL activities.
What MMORPGs are lacking is the variety of activities that allow many different people to "do their thing" with others who like "that thing" too. There needs to be depth in such things, there needs to be a wide variety of such things, and that's a big part of "Sandbox" in designing MMORPGs.
I agree with you but I don't think sandbox is the whole answer. If you gave players a fatigue penalty for too much combat which they had to go to a tavern to recuperate from you would see more player interactivity. Themepark systems can push interaction as well as sandbox "player interdependency".
Themeparks divide Players by their Levels. So even if they go to that tavern they aren't likely to form any new associations, unless they are actually looking to do that. Most aren't, it's just a mechanic in yet another Themepark game.
You need the Sandbox World where player interactions are much more open and widespread (and long term) for all Players, not just the hardcore who happen to stay on the same Level as they go through the game.
In short: Themepark divides Players, Sandbox forms long lasting associations, In most cases.
Themeparks don't have to divided players by levels, the buddy system in CoH proved that to me. But I do appreciate what you are saying about the interdependency of players and indeed guilds in more sandbox games, that is a huge help to community.
<...> but I do think some players (I am not sure Rungar is one), see other players more as a problem rather than a resource for having a good game.
Guilty as charged!
The ratio of "asshats" to "fun loving" players has pegged highly into the asshats rule category. There are still some great players, but they're so outnumbered these days by asshats that I no longer even try
Yea, it's a "me" problem. I'm fine with that and will stick to single player games for now
No, that's not a "you" problem. That's a gaming problem that arose from various design choices that catered to "me first" and "screw you" gamers, and even made that the most successful style of game play.
With the shifts in the player base they wanted to attract and the way they wanted us to play MMOs it is hardly surprising that people get pushed into solo.
They think they are catering to the players, but they are missing something. People are reluctant to participate with strangers, but still want to find those who they can consider "friends." (Loosely speaking.) "Associates/Associations" is a better word for it, especially on the internet, but also in many RL activities.
What MMORPGs are lacking is the variety of activities that allow many different people to "do their thing" with others who like "that thing" too. There needs to be depth in such things, there needs to be a wide variety of such things, and that's a big part of "Sandbox" in designing MMORPGs.
I agree with you but I don't think sandbox is the whole answer. If you gave players a fatigue penalty for too much combat which they had to go to a tavern to recuperate from you would see more player interactivity. Themepark systems can push interaction as well as sandbox "player interdependency".
Themeparks divide Players by their Levels. So even if they go to that tavern they aren't likely to form any new associations, unless they are actually looking to do that. Most aren't, it's just a mechanic in yet another Themepark game.
You need the Sandbox World where player interactions are much more open and widespread (and long term) for all Players, not just the hardcore who happen to stay on the same Level as they go through the game.
In short: Themepark divides Players, Sandbox forms long lasting associations, In most cases.
Themeparks don't have to divided players by levels, the buddy system in CoH proved that to me. But I do appreciate what you are saying about the interdependency of players and indeed guilds in more sandbox games, that is a huge help to community.
Themeparks divide players only if the populations are EXTREAMILY low. The best example would be Everquest 2 and Lotro sadly it seems like they could never get large server populations no matter what they do. Always temporary at best.
Now this is important: Since all mmorpgs are 10 years old, it would appear ALL Themepark suffer the same problem. It's an illusion only because of lack of something else good.
<...> but I do think some players (I am not sure Rungar is one), see other players more as a problem rather than a resource for having a good game.
Guilty as charged!
The ratio of "asshats" to "fun loving" players has pegged highly into the asshats rule category. There are still some great players, but they're so outnumbered these days by asshats that I no longer even try
Yea, it's a "me" problem. I'm fine with that and will stick to single player games for now
No, that's not a "you" problem. That's a gaming problem that arose from various design choices that catered to "me first" and "screw you" gamers, and even made that the most successful style of game play.
With the shifts in the player base they wanted to attract and the way they wanted us to play MMOs it is hardly surprising that people get pushed into solo.
They think they are catering to the players, but they are missing something. People are reluctant to participate with strangers, but still want to find those who they can consider "friends." (Loosely speaking.) "Associates/Associations" is a better word for it, especially on the internet, but also in many RL activities.
What MMORPGs are lacking is the variety of activities that allow many different people to "do their thing" with others who like "that thing" too. There needs to be depth in such things, there needs to be a wide variety of such things, and that's a big part of "Sandbox" in designing MMORPGs.
I agree with you but I don't think sandbox is the whole answer. If you gave players a fatigue penalty for too much combat which they had to go to a tavern to recuperate from you would see more player interactivity. Themepark systems can push interaction as well as sandbox "player interdependency".
Themeparks divide Players by their Levels. So even if they go to that tavern they aren't likely to form any new associations, unless they are actually looking to do that. Most aren't, it's just a mechanic in yet another Themepark game.
You need the Sandbox World where player interactions are much more open and widespread (and long term) for all Players, not just the hardcore who happen to stay on the same Level as they go through the game.
In short: Themepark divides Players, Sandbox forms long lasting associations, In most cases.
Themeparks don't have to divided players by levels, the buddy system in CoH proved that to me. But I do appreciate what you are saying about the interdependency of players and indeed guilds in more sandbox games, that is a huge help to community.
Themeparks divide players only if the populations are EXTREAMILY low. The best example would be Everquest 2 and Lotro sadly it seems like they could never get large server populations no matter what they do. Always temporary at best.
Now this is important: Since all mmorpgs are 10 years old, it would appear ALL Themepark suffer the same problem. It's an illusion only because of lack of something else good.
Love it or hate it... ESO provided scaled content to a person's level + rewards in any zone... thus filling in newbie areas with players... it also a filled in the instance/zone of players from traditionally "pick a server" MMORPG (aka their megaserver tech... which is hotly debated here).
I really enjoyed the original multi-step quests and detail to voice acting, plots, & characters, but when I played... the PVE was just too easy (which I can say with many games).
<...> but I do think some players (I am not sure Rungar is one), see other players more as a problem rather than a resource for having a good game.
Guilty as charged!
The ratio of "asshats" to "fun loving" players has pegged highly into the asshats rule category. There are still some great players, but they're so outnumbered these days by asshats that I no longer even try
Yea, it's a "me" problem. I'm fine with that and will stick to single player games for now
No, that's not a "you" problem. That's a gaming problem that arose from various design choices that catered to "me first" and "screw you" gamers, and even made that the most successful style of game play.
With the shifts in the player base they wanted to attract and the way they wanted us to play MMOs it is hardly surprising that people get pushed into solo.
They think they are catering to the players, but they are missing something. People are reluctant to participate with strangers, but still want to find those who they can consider "friends." (Loosely speaking.) "Associates/Associations" is a better word for it, especially on the internet, but also in many RL activities.
What MMORPGs are lacking is the variety of activities that allow many different people to "do their thing" with others who like "that thing" too. There needs to be depth in such things, there needs to be a wide variety of such things, and that's a big part of "Sandbox" in designing MMORPGs.
I agree with you but I don't think sandbox is the whole answer. If you gave players a fatigue penalty for too much combat which they had to go to a tavern to recuperate from you would see more player interactivity. Themepark systems can push interaction as well as sandbox "player interdependency".
Themeparks divide Players by their Levels. So even if they go to that tavern they aren't likely to form any new associations, unless they are actually looking to do that. Most aren't, it's just a mechanic in yet another Themepark game.
You need the Sandbox World where player interactions are much more open and widespread (and long term) for all Players, not just the hardcore who happen to stay on the same Level as they go through the game.
In short: Themepark divides Players, Sandbox forms long lasting associations, In most cases.
Themeparks don't have to divided players by levels, the buddy system in CoH proved that to me. But I do appreciate what you are saying about the interdependency of players and indeed guilds in more sandbox games, that is a huge help to community.
Themeparks divide players only if the populations are EXTREAMILY low. The best example would be Everquest 2 and Lotro sadly it seems like they could never get large server populations no matter what they do. Always temporary at best.
Now this is important: Since all mmorpgs are 10 years old, it would appear ALL Themepark suffer the same problem. It's an illusion only because of lack of something else good.
Love it or hate it... ESO provided scaled content to a person's level + rewards in any zone... thus filling in newbie areas with players... it also a filled in the instance/zone of players from traditionally "pick a server" MMORPG (aka their megaserver tech... which is hotly debated here).
I really enjoyed the original multi-step quests and detail to voice acting, plots, & characters, but when I played... the PVE was just too easy (which I can say with many games).
I didn't offer ESO as a solution or any other more recent mmo because, their too easy, you don't need anyone, THEIR SOLO GAMES.
For my examples I had to go way beck when mmo's were mmo's
<...> but I do think some players (I am not sure Rungar is one), see other players more as a problem rather than a resource for having a good game.
Guilty as charged!
The ratio of "asshats" to "fun loving" players has pegged highly into the asshats rule category. There are still some great players, but they're so outnumbered these days by asshats that I no longer even try
Yea, it's a "me" problem. I'm fine with that and will stick to single player games for now
No, that's not a "you" problem. That's a gaming problem that arose from various design choices that catered to "me first" and "screw you" gamers, and even made that the most successful style of game play.
With the shifts in the player base they wanted to attract and the way they wanted us to play MMOs it is hardly surprising that people get pushed into solo.
They think they are catering to the players, but they are missing something. People are reluctant to participate with strangers, but still want to find those who they can consider "friends." (Loosely speaking.) "Associates/Associations" is a better word for it, especially on the internet, but also in many RL activities.
What MMORPGs are lacking is the variety of activities that allow many different people to "do their thing" with others who like "that thing" too. There needs to be depth in such things, there needs to be a wide variety of such things, and that's a big part of "Sandbox" in designing MMORPGs.
I agree with you but I don't think sandbox is the whole answer. If you gave players a fatigue penalty for too much combat which they had to go to a tavern to recuperate from you would see more player interactivity. Themepark systems can push interaction as well as sandbox "player interdependency".
Themeparks divide Players by their Levels. So even if they go to that tavern they aren't likely to form any new associations, unless they are actually looking to do that. Most aren't, it's just a mechanic in yet another Themepark game.
You need the Sandbox World where player interactions are much more open and widespread (and long term) for all Players, not just the hardcore who happen to stay on the same Level as they go through the game.
In short: Themepark divides Players, Sandbox forms long lasting associations, In most cases.
Themeparks don't have to divided players by levels, the buddy system in CoH proved that to me. But I do appreciate what you are saying about the interdependency of players and indeed guilds in more sandbox games, that is a huge help to community.
Themeparks divide players only if the populations are EXTREAMILY low. The best example would be Everquest 2 and Lotro sadly it seems like they could never get large server populations no matter what they do. Always temporary at best.
Now this is important: Since all mmorpgs are 10 years old, it would appear ALL Themepark suffer the same problem. It's an illusion only because of lack of something else good.
Love it or hate it... ESO provided scaled content to a person's level + rewards in any zone... thus filling in newbie areas with players... it also a filled in the instance/zone of players from traditionally "pick a server" MMORPG (aka their megaserver tech... which is hotly debated here).
I really enjoyed the original multi-step quests and detail to voice acting, plots, & characters, but when I played... the PVE was just too easy (which I can say with many games).
I didn't offer ESO as a solution or any other more recent mmo because, their too easy, you don't need anyone, THEIR SOLO GAMES.
For my examples I had to go way beck when mmo's were mmo's
that is really not the case. You can solo but there is a lot of group and big group content most of which cant be soloed. Most people cant even solo the solo content ( vet solo arenas). I think your brush is to broad or you havent played eso.
Comments
But, whenever any content was up, we had to take off from our lives, school, work, wives, whatever, and had to commit all of our waking hours to raids till we cleared the said new content. That meant, 16 hours of playtime, everyday, usually for 2 weeks.
Sometimes it dragged even more, a boss could become very frustrating. There were few bosses over the years that everyone called Guild-Killers, and for good reasons. Fucking Twin Emperors, or Twins in Sunwell, C'thun pre-nerf, vanilla 4-horsemen, Yogg, and lots of other badass motherfuckers that I can't recall.
Anyways, so imagine, you have been playing 17 hours a day, stuck at ONE SINGLE FUCKING BOSS, for 10 days straight. That was a nightmare. Sometimes I'd question life itself. Sometimes real life drama would drag into the Vent. Sometimes we fought each other. People left and we had wait for them to come back. The backups sucked so we had to kick them out, then we needed them again so had to beg them to come back. Especially back in vanilla where you needed 40 fucking people.
So yeah, being in such a guild, was a nightmare, during those 2-weeks. But when we finally got the kill, and could just chill for a few months, it was a great feeling. There was no other time in my life that I hated a group of people to their core, yet I loved them to death at the same time. We enjoyed each other's best, and had to tolerate each other's worst.
I guess it was sort of like the Walt Disney version of being in the army lol.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Once upon a time....
Yet, I never went to this extent.... other than gathering some real life friends to play several hours a week I HAD CONTROL OF MY LIFE. Even when I was single.
Even with this smaller percentage of my time playing, I would be considered sick if I told anyone how much I played.
This is why I don't raid..... Their is a point that you have to live life.
People are living in their smart phones.... People are sicker than ever !
People are reluctant to participate with strangers, but still want to find those who they can consider "friends." (Loosely speaking.) "Associates/Associations" is a better word for it, especially on the internet, but also in many RL activities.
What MMORPGs are lacking is the variety of activities that allow many different people to "do their thing" with others who like "that thing" too. There needs to be depth in such things, there needs to be a wide variety of such things, and that's a big part of "Sandbox" in designing MMORPGs.
Once upon a time....
sandbox isnt a cure all. You actually have to have systems.
I'm more sure delete is one, to be honest.
Respect, walk
Are you talkin' to me? Are you talkin' to me?
- PANTERA at HELLFEST 2023
for instance in eso everyone gets their own loot. There is almost no fighting over loot, with the rare someone else got what you needed but wont trade etc. loot is very harmonious in the game and people are usually very friendly about it because the environment is correct. Sometimes you have to do things like this and it works so good that people don't even notice it.
So while there are a few bad apples everywhere, how much you have to suffer them is really up to the design.
You need the Sandbox World where player interactions are much more open and widespread (and long term) for all Players, not just the hardcore who happen to stay on the same Level as they go through the game.
In short:
Themepark divides Players,
Sandbox forms long lasting associations,
In most cases.
Once upon a time....
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
Now this is important:
Since all mmorpgs are 10 years old, it would appear ALL Themepark suffer the same problem. It's an illusion only because of lack of something else good.
I really enjoyed the original multi-step quests and detail to voice acting, plots, & characters, but when I played... the PVE was just too easy (which I can say with many games).
For my examples I had to go way beck when mmo's were mmo's