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Visualization of the MMO game design With and Without Character Level grind
MMOExposed
Member RarePosts: 7,400
Visualization of the MMO game design With and Without Character Level grind.
This been a big discussion over the years here, and I realize most people dont really grasp the concept from text words alone, so I figured its be better if I could illustrate it for visual understanding.
I made three pictures the show the way modern MMOs are designed and why I theorize that the Levelless model is better.
*This is the traditional MMO designed around the grandfathered Character Level grind model that Most MMO developers use:
https://imgur.com/M6DkEpi
The Green Box represent the whole game world. Its split up into Level Ranges. Each Level Range has Zones, Dungeons, Quest, Content etc built for that specific level.
Players create a character, and from day one, they grind out character levels (represented by the Orange arrows), moving from level range to level range until they eventually reach the Max Level Endgame regions and content. They have no reason to return back to the lower level regions for Progression purposes. So Endgame players generally stay in the Endgame regions. As new Levels get added, those former max level zones become ghost towns since like other low level regions, the playerbase moves on as they progress to higher level ranges.
----------------------------------------------------------
*This is the traditional MMO designed around character levels, but with down-scaling:
https://imgur.com/Zm8gnFT
the Greenbox represents the entire game world. The World is still split up into Level Ranges as the standard design model is. But the difference is that players scale back down to the lower level regions of content when they return. Where this model is superior to the traditional standard model is that the old lower level content can still be useful to a max level player to return to (as illustrated by the skinny orange arrows.). The flaws with this model is that, the lower level content still is typically easier for a downscaled player character, since all that content is designed around low level playerbase. This means that the rewards from this content is usually lesser than the rewards from the high level region content, even though the rewards may still have some value.
Another flaw in this model is that the players still are funneled down the same level region to level region as they level grind their way to endgame. They have options to go back to lower level regions with the downscaling, which is better than the standard non-downscaling model, but its still less rewarding. With Content being gated by Character Levels, players want to gain access to that content sooner rather than later. Endgame may have some form of a cool dungeon or raid or Large Scale PvP or mounts or something that only the max level player characters can use. So if thats something that interested you into getting the game, most people are going to strive to get to that content sooner rather than later. And since older downscaled content is less rewarding, most players will stay on the same standard level region to level region seen from the standard model.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
*This is the MMO model designed around not having Character Levels:
https://imgur.com/HbPgLwX
The Green Circle illustrate the entire game world as the other examples before.
The center gray circle is the Character creation and the starting part of the game.
From there, players can go anywhere in the game world and do anything. Zones, Raids, Super Quest, Dungeons, Attunements, Achievement Hunting, Skin Hunting, Crafting, Dynamic Events, WHATEVER! I used Red Circles to illustrate this, since any of these things could be scattered all over the world for you to explore and find and unlock. You are free to make your own journey. The Journey wasnt hand picked for you until you get to the max level endgame stuff, like it is in most MMOs using the traditional grandfathered Character Level MMO design model.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I know people often associate Sandbox MMOs with PvP MMOs,
But using the actual definition, which of these three models really seem more Sandboxish with the freedom to do as you want and make your own content and journey?
in discussions like this and other subjects that dive into the issues why players always tend to rush to Endgame in just about every MMO. People almost always say something to the extent of
"Dont Rush to max level. The Journey is the most important and best part of the game"
But how is that the case in any of the MMOs using the traditional character level divided world model? The journey is already picked out for you.
Also since the game is designed around players repeating the max level content for years to come, most MMO developers try to over inflate the required Character Level Grind to buy time to develop more endgame content since all their early development resources went into a bunch of Low level content that people will eventually out-level and never go back to as your player-base overall reaches endgame.
Lets use some made up numbers for a second. Assume the developers made 12 Dungeons for launch. 12 Dungeons is a lot of content in a MMO.
With the grandfathered traditional Character Level model and over 6 Level Ranges, you would have 2 Dungeons per level range.
*2 dungeons for level 1-10
*2 dungeons for level 11-20
*2 dungeons for level 21 -35
*2 dungeons for level 35-45
*2 dungeons for level 45-59
*2 dungeons for Endgame max level 60
So out of 12 Dungeons, only 2 of them are for the max level endgame players. And eventually players are going to reach endgame if they stick with the game. This means 10 out of the 12 Dungeons will eventually become out-leveled by the majority of the remaining player-base and become useless content thats just a waste of developer resources.
But in a MMO game designed around not having Character Levels, all 12 of those Dungeons are meaningful content since everything is endgame, not just the max level content like we see in MMOs using the traditional character level model. So players have way more options to progress their characters and gain loot from meaningful content, since EVERYTHING is endgame.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Note:
Assume its the same square area as the above boxes. I didnt draw any of this pictures sizes to scale.
This been a big discussion over the years here, and I realize most people dont really grasp the concept from text words alone, so I figured its be better if I could illustrate it for visual understanding.
I made three pictures the show the way modern MMOs are designed and why I theorize that the Levelless model is better.
*This is the traditional MMO designed around the grandfathered Character Level grind model that Most MMO developers use:
https://imgur.com/M6DkEpi
The Green Box represent the whole game world. Its split up into Level Ranges. Each Level Range has Zones, Dungeons, Quest, Content etc built for that specific level.
Players create a character, and from day one, they grind out character levels (represented by the Orange arrows), moving from level range to level range until they eventually reach the Max Level Endgame regions and content. They have no reason to return back to the lower level regions for Progression purposes. So Endgame players generally stay in the Endgame regions. As new Levels get added, those former max level zones become ghost towns since like other low level regions, the playerbase moves on as they progress to higher level ranges.
----------------------------------------------------------
*This is the traditional MMO designed around character levels, but with down-scaling:
https://imgur.com/Zm8gnFT
the Greenbox represents the entire game world. The World is still split up into Level Ranges as the standard design model is. But the difference is that players scale back down to the lower level regions of content when they return. Where this model is superior to the traditional standard model is that the old lower level content can still be useful to a max level player to return to (as illustrated by the skinny orange arrows.). The flaws with this model is that, the lower level content still is typically easier for a downscaled player character, since all that content is designed around low level playerbase. This means that the rewards from this content is usually lesser than the rewards from the high level region content, even though the rewards may still have some value.
Another flaw in this model is that the players still are funneled down the same level region to level region as they level grind their way to endgame. They have options to go back to lower level regions with the downscaling, which is better than the standard non-downscaling model, but its still less rewarding. With Content being gated by Character Levels, players want to gain access to that content sooner rather than later. Endgame may have some form of a cool dungeon or raid or Large Scale PvP or mounts or something that only the max level player characters can use. So if thats something that interested you into getting the game, most people are going to strive to get to that content sooner rather than later. And since older downscaled content is less rewarding, most players will stay on the same standard level region to level region seen from the standard model.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
*This is the MMO model designed around not having Character Levels:
https://imgur.com/HbPgLwX
The Green Circle illustrate the entire game world as the other examples before.
The center gray circle is the Character creation and the starting part of the game.
From there, players can go anywhere in the game world and do anything. Zones, Raids, Super Quest, Dungeons, Attunements, Achievement Hunting, Skin Hunting, Crafting, Dynamic Events, WHATEVER! I used Red Circles to illustrate this, since any of these things could be scattered all over the world for you to explore and find and unlock. You are free to make your own journey. The Journey wasnt hand picked for you until you get to the max level endgame stuff, like it is in most MMOs using the traditional grandfathered Character Level MMO design model.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I know people often associate Sandbox MMOs with PvP MMOs,
But using the actual definition, which of these three models really seem more Sandboxish with the freedom to do as you want and make your own content and journey?
in discussions like this and other subjects that dive into the issues why players always tend to rush to Endgame in just about every MMO. People almost always say something to the extent of
"Dont Rush to max level. The Journey is the most important and best part of the game"
But how is that the case in any of the MMOs using the traditional character level divided world model? The journey is already picked out for you.
Also since the game is designed around players repeating the max level content for years to come, most MMO developers try to over inflate the required Character Level Grind to buy time to develop more endgame content since all their early development resources went into a bunch of Low level content that people will eventually out-level and never go back to as your player-base overall reaches endgame.
Lets use some made up numbers for a second. Assume the developers made 12 Dungeons for launch. 12 Dungeons is a lot of content in a MMO.
With the grandfathered traditional Character Level model and over 6 Level Ranges, you would have 2 Dungeons per level range.
*2 dungeons for level 1-10
*2 dungeons for level 11-20
*2 dungeons for level 21 -35
*2 dungeons for level 35-45
*2 dungeons for level 45-59
*2 dungeons for Endgame max level 60
So out of 12 Dungeons, only 2 of them are for the max level endgame players. And eventually players are going to reach endgame if they stick with the game. This means 10 out of the 12 Dungeons will eventually become out-leveled by the majority of the remaining player-base and become useless content thats just a waste of developer resources.
But in a MMO game designed around not having Character Levels, all 12 of those Dungeons are meaningful content since everything is endgame, not just the max level content like we see in MMOs using the traditional character level model. So players have way more options to progress their characters and gain loot from meaningful content, since EVERYTHING is endgame.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Note:
Assume its the same square area as the above boxes. I didnt draw any of this pictures sizes to scale.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Comments
You still ran max level Dungeons and raids and endgame pvp for loot. But in a Levelless system, all dungeons are endgame.all raids are endgame. Since nothing gets outleveled. Its no different from taking everything level 60 related in Vanilla WoW and scrapping the lower level stuff and replacing it all with level 60. Everything would be endgame. Which means actual more meaningful content.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
maybe you should consider some free applications like draw.io.
Chart 2. I would draw the arrows back to the low level zones more randomly to show that people not only go back to lvl 1-10.
Chart 3. The arrows also go way more randomly as people might switch directions. Yours looks a little bit like "choose your path" while it should look more like "go and do whatever you want, every thing is the same rewarding"
But nice idea. I might try to visualize my ideas.
Regarding your explanations.
You are hitting the nail on the head!
1997 Meridian 59 'til 2019 ESO
Waiting for Camelot Unchained & Pantheon
------------
2024: 47 years on the Net.
Characters would "level past" lower critters and MOBs. But that's reduced a lot compared to Level Based games.
First, UO Dungeons had "levels", in the sense of layers down into the depths of the Dungeons. And each Dungeon level had more powerful MOBs.
So Players had to work their Skills up to be able to handle deeper Dungeon Levels.
But all that depended on whether, and how many, other Players were there, too.
Other players would often help a Player who bit off more than he could chew, which provided some good social interactions between them. Many guilds were built by helping others.
Also, MOB drops often contained resources for making things. So even a Maxed out Character would sometimes go to an easy (for them) first level to stock up on such supplies. (If they wanted tougher MOBs they would go deeper into the Dungeon.)
Even so, as far as "easy" content, numbers could still sometimes overpower a Maxed Out Character. Depending on how "easy" those MOBs are. That was very rare though, unless the Character got stuck being blocked by large numbers surrounding them, AND they run out of Heal Potions or spell reagents, something most Players took care not to let happen.
(There was blocking in UO.)
Once upon a time....
UO, for example, had 5 levels of any gear, in 3 different aspects (damage, durability, and accuracy for weapons, and something similar for armor).
And Skilled Blacksmiths could eventually make them, but randomly and very rarely for the best of each aspect. MOBs would drop them too, so it was a mix on where players got theirs.
Gear would wear out (it could be repaired, but lost a little something on durability each time). And of course it could be sold, too. So Players were always after good stuff to sell, or hold for themselves (or their Alts).
Once upon a time....
The second example, the one with Downscaling.
That gives the players a sense of progress, a feeling of moving up towards an End Game, but also makes the world grow as they level, as opposed being shoehorned into content.
In this case, using the 12 dungeons.
They start with 2, and they keep adding more, until they obtain access to all 12 of them, and all 12 of them remain viable dungeons to play in.
This is ideally the best option.
Because unlike example 1. Where they at best get 2 dungeons to run at any time, which keeps their world tiny and limited, and 10 out of 12 dungeons remain unused.
Or Example 3: Where the world remains the same no matter what, they start with 12 dungeons and they stay at 12 dungeons, never growing or expanding their world.
While example 3 is better than example 1, because it gives more access to the game, both are vastly stagnate in their own way, where example 2 gives a sense of progression and growth..
I didnt find WoW any fun at all once I hit cap and I left.....THe gear treadmill is boring to me.....Especially when there is so much of it that it feels like it doesnt matter....
Like most MMORPGS there still is gear based challenge in ESO, but it's restricted to limited dungeon and raid content.
While every choice has pluses and minuses, I feel ESO's system works well for story heavy MMORPGs and for players who want to easily group with others.
It's also perfect for gamers who enjoy progression, things such as skyshard hunting, gathering, fishing with friends, exploration etc.
However if "challenge" is what one seeks, probably the worst of the four systems as it rarely ever is difficult in any of the overland content, world bosses aside.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
My favorite system is a modification of the eso one:
1) find all the skills and power them up
2) achievements as alternate advancement
3) legacy experience point gathering that is its own achievement and counts for up to 1/3 of the alternate advancement system
Achievements and alternate advancement is the perfect match. Many players go out of their way to complete achievements such as speed runs and no death runs. I think they should be rewarded for such achievements but if you like doing something else you should be rewarded for doing that as well.
Achievements makes everything rewarding no matter what it is. The legacy 1/3 exp grinding is like a buffer in case your playstyle is a little more limited.
You cant just find low hanging fruit and grind that with this kind of system. You have to do things for 2/3 of the system.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon