The reason MMOs fail is because they became glorified Tycoon games where progression becomes the core of the game instead of the expected fun.
By becoming so predominant, progression kills other interesting aspects of a game and turns into an horrible chore.
But failure is not always financial. A game can be successful financially but still being a failure in the fun department.
So if it's not fun why people would stay? Well, MMOs and some other multiplayer games found the recipe a long time ago:
- progression (is addictive and is the main leverage)
- a projection of narcissism over the digital character (doll playing)
- everything social/ bragging rights/ friendly chat discussion / guild drama / and so on ...
- meaningless achievements
A good example of a financially successful collection of chores disguised as a game is BDO. Well, this one adds "eye candy" to the list, and it should not be underestimated.
What if someone finds progression "fun?"
I'm not sure fun even exists w/o progression, at least not in RPGs where is been the core pillar since their inception.
I can't think of many reasons to even play games w/o progression.
Well, one thing, it is definitely "fun" to slaughter everything in my path, like a murderous tornado....
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
So we see all these attempts at trying to make a type of game (mmorpg), that there just isn't the audience for, and then having to put in stuff that the majority wants in order to sell that game, moving it further away from being an actual mmorpg - So much by now that there is only a small resemblence of mmorpg in modern "mmos".
What stuff are they needing to add that are not MMORPG systems? Seems to me that they are starting off without the MMORPG systems at launch then they try pivoting to get their player base back.
When you look at games they are putting in the bulk of the PVE content after the fact usually many years later. Sometimes this will save the MMO sometimes its too late. Maybe they should be starting with this content on Day 1. The old games had deep systems on Day 1. Now days we get MMO lite systems on day 1.
Remember that commercial "wheres the beef"?
Sick and tired of devs doing the bait and switch of we will start as a PVP game then try bait PVE players in with adding PVE lite content later and wonder why they fail. MMO's need deep PVE systems, other genres do pure PVP better. I am not saying they cant have some side PVP but many of those players want PVE systems also.
Thats why players are abandoning these games, they are all surface fluff. Too worried about things nobody even cares about and missing the meat and potatoes for MMORPG stuff.
PvE content gets consumed at an amazingly quick pace compared to how much effort it takes to create.
Yep exactly, not sure the point you are making. Because of this you should make less of it?
If you go in at the start with trivial amounts of PVE, your chance of success is pretty much nil.
These games need to focus on PVE content from the start, then continually add more if they want to retain players.
Change some of the rulesets on some servers for PVP, but stay focused on PVE. Because the more PVE you add the higher chance your success will be.
So we see all these attempts at trying to make a type of game (mmorpg), that there just isn't the audience for, and then having to put in stuff that the majority wants in order to sell that game, moving it further away from being an actual mmorpg - So much by now that there is only a small resemblence of mmorpg in modern "mmos".
What stuff are they needing to add that are not MMORPG systems? Seems to me that they are starting off without the MMORPG systems at launch then they try pivoting to get their player base back.
When you look at games they are putting in the bulk of the PVE content after the fact usually many years later. Sometimes this will save the MMO sometimes its too late. Maybe they should be starting with this content on Day 1. The old games had deep systems on Day 1. Now days we get MMO lite systems on day 1.
Remember that commercial "wheres the beef"?
Sick and tired of devs doing the bait and switch of we will start as a PVP game then try bait PVE players in with adding PVE lite content later and wonder why they fail. MMO's need deep PVE systems, other genres do pure PVP better. I am not saying they cant have some side PVP but many of those players want PVE systems also.
Thats why players are abandoning these games, they are all surface fluff. Too worried about things nobody even cares about and missing the meat and potatoes for MMORPG stuff.
PvE content gets consumed at an amazingly quick pace compared to how much effort it takes to create.
Yep exactly, not sure the point you are making. Because of this you should make less of it?
If you go in at the start with trivial amounts of PVE, your chance of success is pretty much nil.
These games need to focus on PVE content from the start, then continually add more if they want to retain players.
Change some of the rulesets on some servers for PVP, but stay focused on PVE. Because the more PVE you add the higher chance your success will be.
How do you create “enough” PvE for today’s content locusts? Bonus points for figuring out how to do it with 4/5 players being freeloaders who scream for moooooore free stuff!
My point was that I do not see any way to have “enough” PvE. So they can spend vast resources and people will be done in 30-60 days… or they can half-ass it and people will be done with it in 2 weeks…
And once players catch up… you just cannot add enough to keep interest.
I do not see a solution until we get a truly dynamic world with sophisticated AI that can make things happen on its own.
Im dying for a deep PvE game… it’s why I keep an eye on games like Pantheon and Embers. But they are super long shots.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Im dying for a deep PvE game… it’s why I keep an eye on games like Pantheon and Embers. But they are super long shots.
Yeah well, keep looking cause neither of these have deep systems at all. So far from deep, its unfortunate because there was a time I had hope for these as well.
How do you create “enough” PvE for today’s content locusts? Bonus points for figuring out how to do it with 4/5 players being freeloaders who scream for moooooore free stuff!
My point was that I do not see any way to have “enough” PvE. So they can spend vast resources and people will be done in 30-60 days… or they can half-ass it and people will be done with it in 2 weeks…
And once players catch up… you just cannot add enough to keep interest.
I do not see a solution until we get a truly dynamic world with sophisticated AI that can make things happen on its own.
yep I see your point with a hardcore crowd that burns through content.
My suggestion is to have content more dynamic so they cant post the solution online. Have multiple affixes on bosses that randomize encounters, requiring players to think on their feet rather than follow a guide.
With that being said.
WoW did it, ESO did it, FFXIV did it. If they released another magic fantasy game like one of these 3 but not an expansion and a completely new game, you would see huge success even today. The question is really, can they release a game now as good as one of those 3 from before. Thats all they have to do, not even better just equal with updated graphics. I am not sure they can, the quality of Devs skills, also Devs are completely out of touch about what is fun to the consumer.
So we see all these attempts at trying to make a type of game (mmorpg), that there just isn't the audience for, and then having to put in stuff that the majority wants in order to sell that game, moving it further away from being an actual mmorpg - So much by now that there is only a small resemblence of mmorpg in modern "mmos".
What stuff are they needing to add that are not MMORPG systems? Seems to me that they are starting off without the MMORPG systems at launch then they try pivoting to get their player base back.
When you look at games they are putting in the bulk of the PVE content after the fact usually many years later. Sometimes this will save the MMO sometimes its too late. Maybe they should be starting with this content on Day 1. The old games had deep systems on Day 1. Now days we get MMO lite systems on day 1.
Remember that commercial "wheres the beef"?
Sick and tired of devs doing the bait and switch of we will start as a PVP game then try bait PVE players in with adding PVE lite content later and wonder why they fail. MMO's need deep PVE systems, other genres do pure PVP better. I am not saying they cant have some side PVP but many of those players want PVE systems also.
Thats why players are abandoning these games, they are all surface fluff. Too worried about things nobody even cares about and missing the meat and potatoes for MMORPG stuff.
PvE content gets consumed at an amazingly quick pace compared to how much effort it takes to create.
Yep exactly, not sure the point you are making. Because of this you should make less of it?
If you go in at the start with trivial amounts of PVE, your chance of success is pretty much nil.
These games need to focus on PVE content from the start, then continually add more if they want to retain players.
Change some of the rulesets on some servers for PVP, but stay focused on PVE. Because the more PVE you add the higher chance your success will be.
How do you create “enough” PvE for today’s content locusts? Bonus points for figuring out how to do it with 4/5 players being freeloaders who scream for moooooore free stuff!
My point was that I do not see any way to have “enough” PvE. So they can spend vast resources and people will be done in 30-60 days… or they can half-ass it and people will be done with it in 2 weeks…
And once players catch up… you just cannot add enough to keep interest.
I do not see a solution until we get a truly dynamic world with sophisticated AI that can make things happen on its own.
Im dying for a deep PvE game… it’s why I keep an eye on games like Pantheon and Embers. But they are super long shots.
The thing about the AI producing content and soliving the prolblem, I can remember bringing that up twenty years ago around time WoW launched. We are still waiting, so what lets wait another twenty+ years?
So to me it is unsolvable and it may not even be solved in our lifetimes, twenty+ years is a long time.
PvP and raids are the best endgame you can have until then, as long as the rewards are kept quite separate and there are not easymode versions of PvP or raids that make players abandon the more in depth versions.
All valid points; however, there isn't one current MMORPG that requires group content to progress. They're just single player RPGs with other people running around. DAOC is the only one that requires grouping to level. That fosters socialization and a strong community.
The other issue I see is that producers try a "one size fits all" approach. Hardcore, casual, PVP, crafters, explorers and PVE players have different gaming needs and one MMORPG can't do it all. Producers need to focus on one group (or 2, at the most) and make the best game for them.
All valid points; however, there isn't one current MMORPG that requires group content to progress. They're just single player RPGs with other people running around. DAOC is the only one that requires grouping to level. That fosters socialization and a strong community.
The other issue I see is that producers try a "one size fits all" approach. Hardcore, casual, PVP, crafters, explorers and PVE players have different gaming needs and one MMORPG can't do it all. Producers need to focus on one group (or 2, at the most) and make the best game for them.
I agree. To take your DAoC reference even further in your comment.
In DAoC: You could solo, but that isn't really the best way to go.
You could be very social, but the ability to solo was always there.
You could make your game about crafting, but you absolutely didn't have to craft, ever.
You could build a house, buy stuff from other people's houses or never step foot in housing.
You could explore the huge, full and diverse map, or you could get PL'd in one corner of one zone and never step foot anywhere else.
You could level up completely doing PvP, but you never had to PvP even once.
You could do nothing but PvE, but PvP was still an option.
Everything was completely separate while at the same time remain loosely intertwined. This is such a perfect template to copy, yet every time a developer references DAoC as a template, they ruin it in some odd way that wasn't necessary.
They simply don't make games like this anymore. It's a shame.
Initially I took Wildstar's "hardcore" advertisement to be a parody. I mean it had to be given the humor and aesthetic. Parts of it was fun, but something about the combat didn't click with me and I lost interest until I heard it was shutting down then I went back to cruise around. If combat could have been improved and realized their target audience should be the casual players, it might have done better.
I'm not sure fun even exists w/o progression, at least not in RPGs where is been the core pillar since their inception.
I can't think of many reasons to even play games w/o progression.
Well, one thing, it is definitely "fun" to slaughter everything in my path, like a murderous tornado....
Yes progression is addictive and fun. No debate there. The problem is when this is all there is (or mostly).
Then your MMO becomes not so different from a tycoon game or a idle one.
As for the murderous lawn mower style fighting, IMHO it depends. In BDO it is beautiful and flashy but becomes quickly a chore because on how the game sets goals and results. In PoE, when things die even before showing up, it is a little sad and lacks involvement. In both games you are basically in cruise control mode, not really making choices. You spit your skill rotation, that's it. At least in PoE you had to work on your build prior to the slaughter.
I prefer, for instance, the murderous tornado of warframe for example which is usually way more involving (it depends, some warframes kill everything passively). But here, generally, you have to fight, hit your target, move, slide, jump, and so on, in other words make decisions on-the-fly which, in my book, matches the definition of playing.
The two MMOs held up as example of failure were both published by NCSoft, so I think that might be the single greatest contributor to their rather early demise as NC isn't known for staying in the long game once a title dips below a certain level of popularity.
In fact, the 5 mentioned reasons for failure don't even apply to the two games mentioned, and we all have played many MMOs which were successful despite having some of these so called failure points.
Doesn't respect players time? WTF is that? Totally relative and unique for everyone, only game hoppers or rushers would even care much about such, or people who shouldn't be playing MMORPGSs
Used to be an old adage, if one isn't able to log in for at least a couple hours a day, then MMORPGs probably aren't the genre for them and I still believe this holds mostly true unless... Reasonably paced progression is not a core gameplay pillar they are looking for.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
What if there WAS NO WAY to get to end game in a month? What if by design the game would release new content each month with progressive increases in difficulty? And what if there was a soft cap at each stage, so you literally could no longer gain experience from mindlessly killing the same boars 50000 times?
Sure this means that folks that want to play 20 hours a day, every day... will get bored and not able to go from 1-100 in 3 weeks.... But I think that's OK.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I think it's because MMORPGs try to put in so much variety in systems and things to do that they often leave the core parts of the game unpolished or unfinished
I had a think about what games do I keep going back to and giving another full playthrough.
Hollow Knight, a Metroidvania game that has a fantastic world waiting to be explored. The acrobatic combat isn't bad either.
Path of Exile, skill gems and a massive passive tree allows for unparalleled customization. They also reset the league every 3-ish months with a new focused mechanic to try.
Black Desert, some of the best combat I've experienced in a game, and their Lifeskilling (Professions) is top tier as well.
And these are just the ones off the top of my head. They have a finely polished core, in my opinion, that keeps me coming back for more.
Black Desert, some of the best combat I've experienced in a game, and their Lifeskilling (Professions) is top tier as well.
That is interesting on how much opinions can be different!
BDO has far from the best combat IMO.
On the PVP side:
- desync
- damage based on client FPS (hardcore PvPers play in the lowest graphic settings for this reason)
- balance has always been a joke.
- gear based vs skill based
On the PvE side:
- Gorgeous animations
- Fantastic special effects
but
- uninvolving combat (you basically get in some kind of hypnotic trance and basically stop thinking, stuck in your rotation skill-wise and map-wise)
- unchallenging combat, because one is supposed to select the right area according to its gear/level to optimize gains. Basically, you are supposed to lawn mowing everything or you are doing it wrong and wasting your time/costly buffs.
Life-Skilling
If hitting trees and rocks is your thing....... well what can I say? For me it is utterly boring, and I have a hard time at calling it "playing".
If mixing/managing inventory and recipes is your thing....... well what can I say?
AFK fishing is really what it states => an AFK activity. You are definitively not playing here. No debate no opinion.
Sailing is almost the same (I did it for years, I know Margoria by heart). Idid it because I was indeed to tired to really play anything else during this period of my life.
I did not do much hunting, which is fun maybe nor horse taming...... but well you see the picture.
What BDO did well IMO for life-skilling is
- first providing it! That is a good idea at its foundation
- recognize in various ways its community of life-skillers
- designing a progression system similar the combat gear one, somehow putting life-skilling and mob-grinding almost on an equal foot (not in terms of silvers gains).
Pantheon is a great example of a MMORPG trying to do it the right way...and it will fail miserably simply because the players don't want to play that way anymore......The days of grouping up and fighting as a team in a MMO are long gone....Sure maybe at end game where you can get uber gear they will do it, but at level 10? Probably not....The reason why these games fail is because they went away from what made the games great originally: the community.....EQ was far from a perfect game, but I made more friends there than all other MMOs I played combined (and thats alot)......
MMOs today are set to please the solo player....Companies want to get as much income as possible so they go to please the casuals and the soloers.....That is where the money is....I really hope Pantheon makes it to launch someday because I am curious hwo it will do.....THe problem is that games get labels and a game like that will not appeal to younger players because it is "old school" and they will not play it.
Pantheon is a great example of a MMORPG trying to do it the right way...and it will fail miserably simply because the players don't want to play that way anymore......The days of grouping up and fighting as a team in a MMO are long gone....Sure maybe at end game where you can get uber gear they will do it, but at level 10? Probably not....The reason why these games fail is because they went away from what made the games great originally: the community.....EQ was far from a perfect game, but I made more friends there than all other MMOs I played combined (and thats alot)......
MMOs today are set to please the solo player....Companies want to get as much income as possible so they go to please the casuals and the soloers.....That is where the money is....I really hope Pantheon makes it to launch someday because I am curious hwo it will do.....THe problem is that games get labels and a game like that will not appeal to younger players because it is "old school" and they will not play it.
I don't know that to necessarily be true... I think it's highly likely that Pantheon fails for reasons other than "old school" engagement ideas. When I look at it, it seems like its got a distance to go on the QOL stuff that players want now. I'm not talking about easy gameplay, but things like animations, UI... ease of controls (and I am sure it will be buggy)
I think it could fix everything and still fail because of the reasons you list, but I see the ones I listed as major obstacles they have to overcome before we even get into the gameplay stuff.
Like you, I am cautiously waiting to see what it becomes... ONE of these days, just by sheerly throwing enough crap against a wall... one of these companies will get the right combo.
At least that's what I tell myself.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Black Desert, some of the best combat I've experienced in a game, and their Lifeskilling (Professions) is top tier as well.
I hated the combat in BDO. It's one of the main reasons I quit. It felt like it was all flash with no substance... like my attack was being projected on a screen in front of my actual opponent. It was really odd and offputting.
Pantheon is a great example of a MMORPG trying to do it the right way...and it will fail miserably simply because the players don't want to play that way anymore......The days of grouping up and fighting as a team in a MMO are long gone....Sure maybe at end game where you can get uber gear they will do it, but at level 10? Probably not....The reason why these games fail is because they went away from what made the games great originally: the community.....EQ was far from a perfect game, but I made more friends there than all other MMOs I played combined (and thats alot)......
MMOs today are set to please the solo player....Companies want to get as much income as possible so they go to please the casuals and the soloers.....That is where the money is....I really hope Pantheon makes it to launch someday because I am curious hwo it will do.....THe problem is that games get labels and a game like that will not appeal to younger players because it is "old school" and they will not play it.
This saddens me. I enjoyed the games that had an almost required grouping aspect. Not like the forced grouping like we have in modern MMOs where you can pop into a group, not say a word to your party and 2 minutes later ungroup when you get quest credit.
Solo MMOs are almost not even MMOs. I think this mindset is what is slowly killing the genre.
Pantheon is a great example of a MMORPG trying to do it the right way...and it will fail miserably simply because the players don't want to play that way anymore......The days of grouping up and fighting as a team in a MMO are long gone....Sure maybe at end game where you can get uber gear they will do it, but at level 10? Probably not....The reason why these games fail is because they went away from what made the games great originally: the community.....EQ was far from a perfect game, but I made more friends there than all other MMOs I played combined (and thats alot)......
MMOs today are set to please the solo player....Companies want to get as much income as possible so they go to please the casuals and the soloers.....That is where the money is....I really hope Pantheon makes it to launch someday because I am curious hwo it will do.....THe problem is that games get labels and a game like that will not appeal to younger players because it is "old school" and they will not play it.
I don't know that to necessarily be true... I think it's highly likely that Pantheon fails for reasons other than "old school" engagement ideas. When I look at it, it seems like its got a distance to go on the QOL stuff that players want now. I'm not talking about easy gameplay, but things like animations, UI... ease of controls (and I am sure it will be buggy)
I think it could fix everything and still fail because of the reasons you list, but I see the ones I listed as major obstacles they have to overcome before we even get into the gameplay stuff.
Like you, I am cautiously waiting to see what it becomes... ONE of these days, just by sheerly throwing enough crap against a wall... one of these companies will get the right combo.
At least that's what I tell myself.
You are exactly right here. QOL is what is missing in Embers Adrift and probably Pantheon will fail for similar reasons no doubt about it. Already I see things like:
Lack of inventory Lack of abilities Very few spells you can use because they purposely limiting you. Corpse runs Huge death penalties Losing all your items and gold on death Forced to run around the zone without teleportation. No teleportation Cant log out in a hurry to do Real Life stuff because no easy teleportation or lack of safe spots. Lack of cool abilities on weapons or armor Extremely basic armor/weap sets Most abilities you have seem irrelevant to the game other than a few core abilities. Lack of a way to distinguish yourself from other players Bad Mob AI Lack of dungeon/mob mechanics Lack of stylish armor/clothes/transmogs Lack of ability to sell items/vendor items/trade items Lack of a compass or a way to see where you are on a map (not kidding) Lack of stamina/mana regen speed. Few potions Few available reagents to do spells/abilities Having to travel to distance zones to access a bank. Forced to throw items away because no inventory space Everything feels pointless and slow
Yeah so much QOL missing its pathetic, these games just don't feel fun anymore. They have forgotten the fun.
Notice none of these things is about the game having too difficult content.
Losing all your stuff forever, or lack of inventory or forced running through a world for 2 hours is not hard to me, its just a waste of time.
Pantheon is a great example of a MMORPG trying to do it the right way...and it will fail miserably simply because the players don't want to play that way anymore......The days of grouping up and fighting as a team in a MMO are long gone....Sure maybe at end game where you can get uber gear they will do it, but at level 10? Probably not....The reason why these games fail is because they went away from what made the games great originally: the community.....EQ was far from a perfect game, but I made more friends there than all other MMOs I played combined (and thats alot)......
MMOs today are set to please the solo player....Companies want to get as much income as possible so they go to please the casuals and the soloers.....That is where the money is....I really hope Pantheon makes it to launch someday because I am curious hwo it will do.....THe problem is that games get labels and a game like that will not appeal to younger players because it is "old school" and they will not play it.
I don't know that to necessarily be true... I think it's highly likely that Pantheon fails for reasons other than "old school" engagement ideas. When I look at it, it seems like its got a distance to go on the QOL stuff that players want now. I'm not talking about easy gameplay, but things like animations, UI... ease of controls (and I am sure it will be buggy)
I think it could fix everything and still fail because of the reasons you list, but I see the ones I listed as major obstacles they have to overcome before we even get into the gameplay stuff.
Like you, I am cautiously waiting to see what it becomes... ONE of these days, just by sheerly throwing enough crap against a wall... one of these companies will get the right combo.
At least that's what I tell myself.
You are exactly right here. QOL is what is missing in Embers Adrift and probably Pantheon will fail for similar reasons no doubt about it. Already I see things like:
Lack of inventory Lack of abilities Very few spells you can use because they purposely limiting you. Corpse runs Huge death penalties Losing all your items and gold on death Forced to run around the zone without teleportation. No teleportation Cant log out in a hurry to do Real Life stuff because no easy teleportation or lack of safe spots. Lack of cool abilities on weapons or armor Extremely basic armor/weap sets Most abilities you have seem irrelevant to the game other than a few core abilities. Lack of a way to distinguish yourself from other players Bad Mob AI Lack of dungeon/mob mechanics Lack of stylish armor/clothes/transmogs Lack of ability to sell items/vendor items/trade items Lack of a compass or a way to see where you are on a map (not kidding) Lack of stamina/mana regen speed. Few potions Few available reagents to do spells/abilities Having to travel to distance zones to access a bank. Forced to throw items away because no inventory space Everything feels pointless and slow
Yeah so much QOL missing its pathetic, these games just don't feel fun anymore. They have forgotten the fun.
Notice none of these things is about the game having too difficult content.
Losing all your stuff forever, or lack of inventory or forced running through a world for 2 hours is not hard to me, its just a waste of time.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I mean, read above me for further points but online games are single
player games. You need a story, even if shoddy, and enough content for
whales to plow through. Give us stories, then real content, then group
aspects.
Wildstar was a great mmo, without the required content and hype. It had hype, but not enough content to support it. Straight clone. Clones can work, if they have the extras. Game = time. MMOS = well, basically incremental EVERY TIME you can. Standard tropes, but longevity multiplied by the widest margin of incremental gameplay you can. Above me, BDO is mentioned. It's perfect. NO Daily caps (that I can recall). You'll hit 2 cities before you finish your workload. Nowhere near any fundemental caps, unless you choose them. I love running dailies in BDO. I am nowhere near anything in BDO (I'm well above soft caps for contribution).. Technically speaking, solid game design.
Pantheon is a great example of a MMORPG trying to do it the right way...and it will fail miserably simply because the players don't want to play that way anymore......The days of grouping up and fighting as a team in a MMO are long gone....Sure maybe at end game where you can get uber gear they will do it, but at level 10? Probably not....The reason why these games fail is because they went away from what made the games great originally: the community.....EQ was far from a perfect game, but I made more friends there than all other MMOs I played combined (and thats alot)......
MMOs today are set to please the solo player....Companies want to get as much income as possible so they go to please the casuals and the soloers.....That is where the money is....I really hope Pantheon makes it to launch someday because I am curious hwo it will do.....THe problem is that games get labels and a game like that will not appeal to younger players because it is "old school" and they will not play it.
I don't know that to necessarily be true... I think it's highly likely that Pantheon fails for reasons other than "old school" engagement ideas. When I look at it, it seems like its got a distance to go on the QOL stuff that players want now. I'm not talking about easy gameplay, but things like animations, UI... ease of controls (and I am sure it will be buggy)
I think it could fix everything and still fail because of the reasons you list, but I see the ones I listed as major obstacles they have to overcome before we even get into the gameplay stuff.
Like you, I am cautiously waiting to see what it becomes... ONE of these days, just by sheerly throwing enough crap against a wall... one of these companies will get the right combo.
At least that's what I tell myself.
You are exactly right here. QOL is what is missing in Embers Adrift and probably Pantheon will fail for similar reasons no doubt about it. Already I see things like:
Lack of inventory Lack of abilities Very few spells you can use because they purposely limiting you. Corpse runs Huge death penalties Losing all your items and gold on death Forced to run around the zone without teleportation. No teleportation Cant log out in a hurry to do Real Life stuff because no easy teleportation or lack of safe spots. Lack of cool abilities on weapons or armor Extremely basic armor/weap sets Most abilities you have seem irrelevant to the game other than a few core abilities. Lack of a way to distinguish yourself from other players Bad Mob AI Lack of dungeon/mob mechanics Lack of stylish armor/clothes/transmogs Lack of ability to sell items/vendor items/trade items Lack of a compass or a way to see where you are on a map (not kidding) Lack of stamina/mana regen speed. Few potions Few available reagents to do spells/abilities Having to travel to distance zones to access a bank. Forced to throw items away because no inventory space Everything feels pointless and slow
Yeah so much QOL missing its pathetic, these games just don't feel fun anymore. They have forgotten the fun.
Notice none of these things is about the game having too difficult content.
Losing all your stuff forever, or lack of inventory or forced running through a world for 2 hours is not hard to me, its just a waste of time.
Some people enjoy rugged wilderness camping,
others prefer to stay at a Holiday Inn Express.
True point, but then this is why some games are failing with only a few players and others are have hundreds of thousands playing. Interesting example you gave, but this is why more and more campgrounds are offering Quality of Life experiences rather than just primitive camping. Cabins, firepits, electrical hookups, convenient parking space, picknic table, flat spot for tents, boat docks, fish cleaning stations, trash, showers, restrooms .... Most people want to experience the outdoors, but they don't want to be face to face with a mountain lion or bear.
So if your business plan requires you to attract lots of people, you better make sure that you are in fact putting in a system that is attractive to lots of people.
But not every MMORPG needs to be a massive million player hit. Niche games should stay in their lane. If most of these small games got 50k or even 20-25k they would likely be just fine monetarily. Well… if it was a sub based game. 50000 freeloaders screaming for Moar! is not gonna do squat.
I still say that if they make a game that is easy to engage with (UI, animations, control fidelity, no crazy bugs) that there is a sustainable market for an old school game.
Fuck… the market for this tends to have more disposable income…. Folks are tossing down thousands on dreams. Just get a realistic customer forecast and charge a sub at a level that sustains the business. $25? 39? Folks paid 60 for Elden Ring and finished in a few weeks.
Post edited by Slapshot1188 on
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Comments
I'm not sure fun even exists w/o progression, at least not in RPGs where is been the core pillar since their inception.
I can't think of many reasons to even play games w/o progression.
Well, one thing, it is definitely "fun" to slaughter everything in my path, like a murderous tornado....
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
If you go in at the start with trivial amounts of PVE, your chance of success is pretty much nil.
These games need to focus on PVE content from the start, then continually add more if they want to retain players.
Change some of the rulesets on some servers for PVP, but stay focused on PVE. Because the more PVE you add the higher chance your success will be.
My point was that I do not see any way to have “enough” PvE. So they can spend vast resources and people will be done in 30-60 days… or they can half-ass it and people will be done with it in 2 weeks…
And once players catch up… you just cannot add enough to keep interest.
Im dying for a deep PvE game… it’s why I keep an eye on games like Pantheon and Embers. But they are super long shots.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
yep I see your point with a hardcore crowd that burns through content.
My suggestion is to have content more dynamic so they cant post the solution online. Have multiple affixes on bosses that randomize encounters, requiring players to think on their feet rather than follow a guide.
With that being said.
WoW did it, ESO did it, FFXIV did it. If they released another magic fantasy game like one of these 3 but not an expansion and a completely new game, you would see huge success even today. The question is really, can they release a game now as good as one of those 3 from before. Thats all they have to do, not even better just equal with updated graphics. I am not sure they can, the quality of Devs skills, also Devs are completely out of touch about what is fun to the consumer.
So to me it is unsolvable and it may not even be solved in our lifetimes, twenty+ years is a long time.
PvP and raids are the best endgame you can have until then, as long as the rewards are kept quite separate and there are not easymode versions of PvP or raids that make players abandon the more in depth versions.
The other issue I see is that producers try a "one size fits all" approach. Hardcore, casual, PVP, crafters, explorers and PVE players have different gaming needs and one MMORPG can't do it all. Producers need to focus on one group (or 2, at the most) and make the best game for them.
In DAoC:
You could solo, but that isn't really the best way to go.
You could be very social, but the ability to solo was always there.
You could make your game about crafting, but you absolutely didn't have to craft, ever.
You could build a house, buy stuff from other people's houses or never step foot in housing.
You could explore the huge, full and diverse map, or you could get PL'd in one corner of one zone and never step foot anywhere else.
You could level up completely doing PvP, but you never had to PvP even once.
You could do nothing but PvE, but PvP was still an option.
Everything was completely separate while at the same time remain loosely intertwined. This is such a perfect template to copy, yet every time a developer references DAoC as a template, they ruin it in some odd way that wasn't necessary.
They simply don't make games like this anymore. It's a shame.
I enjoyed the BGs at release in a way I rarely enjoyed, say, WoWs. Of course, it wasn't balanced at release and wasn't a focus point. C'est la vie.
In fact, the 5 mentioned reasons for failure don't even apply to the two games mentioned, and we all have played many MMOs which were successful despite having some of these so called failure points.
Doesn't respect players time? WTF is that? Totally relative and unique for everyone, only game hoppers or rushers would even care much about such, or people who shouldn't be playing MMORPGSs
Used to be an old adage, if one isn't able to log in for at least a couple hours a day, then MMORPGs probably aren't the genre for them and I still believe this holds mostly true unless... Reasonably paced progression is not a core gameplay pillar they are looking for.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
What if there WAS NO WAY to get to end game in a month? What if by design the game would release new content each month with progressive increases in difficulty? And what if there was a soft cap at each stage, so you literally could no longer gain experience from mindlessly killing the same boars 50000 times?
Sure this means that folks that want to play 20 hours a day, every day... will get bored and not able to go from 1-100 in 3 weeks.... But I think that's OK.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I had a think about what games do I keep going back to and giving another full playthrough.
And these are just the ones off the top of my head. They have a finely polished core, in my opinion, that keeps me coming back for more.
I think it could fix everything and still fail because of the reasons you list, but I see the ones I listed as major obstacles they have to overcome before we even get into the gameplay stuff.
Like you, I am cautiously waiting to see what it becomes... ONE of these days, just by sheerly throwing enough crap against a wall... one of these companies will get the right combo.
At least that's what I tell myself.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
This saddens me. I enjoyed the games that had an almost required grouping aspect. Not like the forced grouping like we have in modern MMOs where you can pop into a group, not say a word to your party and 2 minutes later ungroup when you get quest credit.
Solo MMOs are almost not even MMOs. I think this mindset is what is slowly killing the genre.
Lack of inventory
Lack of abilities
Very few spells you can use because they purposely limiting you.
Corpse runs
Huge death penalties
Losing all your items and gold on death
Forced to run around the zone without teleportation.
No teleportation
Cant log out in a hurry to do Real Life stuff because no easy teleportation or lack of safe spots.
Lack of cool abilities on weapons or armor
Extremely basic armor/weap sets
Most abilities you have seem irrelevant to the game other than a few core abilities.
Lack of a way to distinguish yourself from other players
Bad Mob AI
Lack of dungeon/mob mechanics
Lack of stylish armor/clothes/transmogs
Lack of ability to sell items/vendor items/trade items
Lack of a compass or a way to see where you are on a map (not kidding)
Lack of stamina/mana regen speed.
Few potions
Few available reagents to do spells/abilities
Having to travel to distance zones to access a bank.
Forced to throw items away because no inventory space
Everything feels pointless and slow
Yeah so much QOL missing its pathetic, these games just don't feel fun anymore. They have forgotten the fun.
Notice none of these things is about the game having too difficult content.
Losing all your stuff forever, or lack of inventory or forced running through a world for 2 hours is not hard to me, its just a waste of time.
others prefer to stay at a Holiday Inn Express.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
True point, but then this is why some games are failing with only a few players and others are have hundreds of thousands playing. Interesting example you gave, but this is why more and more campgrounds are offering Quality of Life experiences rather than just primitive camping. Cabins, firepits, electrical hookups, convenient parking space, picknic table, flat spot for tents, boat docks, fish cleaning stations, trash, showers, restrooms .... Most people want to experience the outdoors, but they don't want to be face to face with a mountain lion or bear.
So if your business plan requires you to attract lots of people, you better make sure that you are in fact putting in a system that is attractive to lots of people.
I still say that if they make a game that is easy to engage with (UI, animations, control fidelity, no crazy bugs) that there is a sustainable market for an old school game.
Fuck… the market for this tends to have more disposable income…. Folks are tossing down thousands on dreams. Just get a realistic customer forecast and charge a sub at a level that sustains the business. $25? 39? Folks paid 60 for Elden Ring and finished in a few weeks.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018