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The Elder Scrolls Online: High Isle Review

SystemSystem Member UncommonPosts: 12,599
Post edited by lotrlore on

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  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 24,423
    edited June 2022
    I wonder if you could comment on the idea that the narratives since Morrowind have all been rather similar? Not played them, but a couple of posters were talking about this. Also is a cliff hanger ending going to be the only sort of expansion ESO now gets? For that matter if it goes down well enough every MMO will get from here on in.

    When drama can become Drama that's rather too alluring for MMO developers, indeed when Drama can become DRAMA they can lose their heads.
  • WarWitchWarWitch Member UncommonPosts: 351
    It needs ships, sea fighting, and pvp needs a reason to, new sets, stuff to harvest as dense as the other zones, a reason to lure pvers to it. The pvpers sure have to pve to get good competitive gear.
  • lotrlorelotrlore Managing EditorMMORPG.COM Staff, Member RarePosts: 671
    Scot said:
    I wonder if you could comment on the idea that the narratives since Morrowind have all been rather similar? Not played them, but a couple of posters were talking about this. Also is a cliff hanger ending going to be the only sort of expansion ESO now gets? For that matter if it goes down well enough every MMO will get from here on in.

    When drama can become Drama that's rather too alluring for MMO developers, indeed when Drama can become DRAMA they can lose their heads.
    I don't think every chapter since Morrowind has had a similar story. What I think that feeling stems from is the fact the formula for each story chain is similar. Each story has been pretty unique (though the "end of the world" drama could cause some to feel they blend into the same thing), but their progression is similar. Summerset and Elsweyr definitely had some major story beat similarities, though.

    And ESO's cliffhanger does make some sense in that it's setting up an entire year's worth of content where the chapter expansion is just one part. BUT since it's the big content drop of the year, the cliff hanger, especially where it lands in the story quest chain, is incredibly unsatisfying. It's not a natural feeling cliffhanger where the story ends up there as part of its natural progression. Instead this feels forced and out of place, just like it did in Blackwood, Greymoor and more. 

    It's so unnatural that, as I mentioned in the review, this is another time that when the story quest chain ended, I said out loud to my party "Wait, that's it?" I couldn't believe that's where it ended.
    ValentinaScot
  • ValentinaValentina Member RarePosts: 2,108
    edited June 2022
    I was worried that this would be the case. Blackwood ultimately didn't really feel like it was enough for me, either as it felt kind of short, and the zone felt void of content compared to their previous releases. I will probably wait to play this one after they've released the next part. I also think they really need to look into changing up the overworld content. The Dark Anchor-like events have become extremely stale, and even if they forego that type of content and focus more on filling out new maps with more side-quests, public dungeons, and making overworld monster encounters a bit more challenging I'd be happier.
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 24,423
    It does not sound as bad as some posters implied then, just not as good as it could be. But I think if they keep doing cliff hangers which look like your TV box failed to record this episodes ending they will damage the strength of the narrative in players eyes. Waiting until all parts have wrapped up is an option of course, but I doubt players who play regularly will want to wait that long.
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    edited June 2022
    lotrlore said:
    BUT since it's the big content drop of the year, the cliff hanger, especially where it lands in the story quest chain, is incredibly unsatisfying. It's not a natural feeling cliffhanger where the story ends up there as part of its natural progression. Instead this feels forced and out of place, just like it did in Blackwood, Greymoor and more. 

    That's exactly the difference, It IS a forced "ro be continued" chapter ending.

    It's not like ESO has no experience with stories that take several zones to tell. The original Molag Bal story arc takes you through 6 zones before its conclusion. The first two chapters with a DLC in the middle, Morrowind, Clockwork City and Summerset are a trilogy.

    But each one of those vanilla zones and the zones that are part of the daedric triad invasion arc can all stand on their own and have satisfactory resolutions to their part in a larger story within their zone. They tell a full story and then the arc continues in other zones with another full but related story. They were clearly episodic with each part standing on its own.

    Last year's chapter + fall DLC combo, Blackwood/Deadlands was also pretty bad with not telling 2 separate related stories but instead one single story split by brute force. High Isle takes this amateurish storytelling to an even lower level.

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  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    Valentina said:
    I also think they really need to look into changing up the overworld content. The Dark Anchor-like events have become extremely stale,

    There are good variations on the open world group event theme with some, harrowstorms in Western Skyrim and The Reach and dragons in Northern and Southern Elswyr being differentiating themselves by virtue of being much tougher - very, very tough to solo.

    I thought we were done with the easier versions but the Volcanic vents aren't even as tough as the Summerset geysers which can be easily soloed just like dark anchors.

    But they are also stale because they are all the same static location group event that play pretty well the same as any other and are done literally in less than 5 minutes with enough players doing them.

    I'm a fan of open world group events and IMO, they add something missing in many MMOs: an informal opportunity to play with others, much different in their casual, drop-in nature from the standard, instanced group events with player role and numbers limits.

    I had hoped that by now someone in some MMO would have matched or surpassed the more spontaneous feeling, zone disruptions and length of Rift's zone invasion events. ESO certainly hasn't. 

    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • ValentinaValentina Member RarePosts: 2,108

    Iselin said:


    Valentina said:

    I also think they really need to look into changing up the overworld content. The Dark Anchor-like events have become extremely stale,

    There are good variations on the open world group event theme with some, harrowstorms in Western Skyrim and The Reach and dragons in Northern and Southern Elswyr being differentiating themselves by virtue of being much tougher - very, very tough to solo.

    I thought we were done with the easier versions but the Volcanic vents aren't even as tough as the Summerset geysers which can be easily soloed just like dark anchors.

    But they are also stale because they are all the same static location group event that play pretty well the same as any other and are done literally in less than 5 minutes with enough players doing them.

    I'm a fan of open world group events and IMO, they add something missing in many MMOs: an informal opportunity to play with others, much different in their casual, drop-in nature from the standard, instanced group events with player role and numbers limits.

    I had hoped that by now someone in some MMO would have matched or surpassed the more spontaneous feeling, zone disruptions and length of Rift's zone invasion events. ESO certainly hasn't. 




    Fair. I think I just want the general difficulty in the over world to be higher in general.
  • perrin82perrin82 Member UncommonPosts: 285
    Good review. I have been debating getting back into ESO again.
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 24,423
    perrin82 said:
    Good review. I have been debating getting back into ESO again.
    With an avatar like that I am not surprised. :)
    Sovrath
  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member EpicPosts: 4,582
    Scot said:
    It does not sound as bad as some posters implied then, just not as good as it could be. But I think if they keep doing cliff hangers which look like your TV box failed to record this episodes ending they will damage the strength of the narrative in players eyes. Waiting until all parts have wrapped up is an option of course, but I doubt players who play regularly will want to wait that long.
    MMORPGs are never as good as they could be from the vast number of differing perspectives they are judged by. What they can be is good enough to enough, which ESO has done consistently enough for the game to have enduring popularity.
    SovrathlotrloreScot
  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member EpicPosts: 4,582
    Iselin said:

    I had hoped that by now someone in some MMO would have matched or surpassed the more spontaneous feeling, zone disruptions and length of Rift's zone invasion events. ESO certainly hasn't. 


    Full out invasions were truly massive in scale. Beyond that, rifts were integrated into play in so many other ways dolmens and such are one trick ponies in comparison.
    SovrathYashaX
  • ajdesashaajdesasha Newbie CommonPosts: 1
    More than anything this review just sounds like you personally are getting tired of ESO. Which is valid. But at that point it just feels like someone else who isn't admitting to being burnt out on the game should review it?
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  • QuarterStackQuarterStack Member RarePosts: 546
    edited July 2022
    I fell behind things by a full expansion. So, upon returning, I started playing through Blackwood. It wasn't long at all before the feeling of "I've done this before.. multiple times" set in.

    The predictable, Scooby-Doo type stories, where the antognist is "insert highly known and respected individual here who no one ever expected! here". How many times are they going to use that same twist? You can see it coming from a mile away at this point. Or at least write it better so it's not so glaringly obvious. There's always a moment in the story, early on, where the villain basically gives themself away, through their words or their (in)actions in response to a threat.

    I'd love to see them mix it up. I'd *really* love to see them go Big on a story. Raise the stakes. Bring the whole of Tamriel into it, not just a small corner of it. Something the scale of the Molag Bal story, or even bigger. Bring older zones back into it - let its effects touch everywhere.

    It's weird. The last stories to really get me engaged and interested were DLC... Specifically, Murkmire and Orsinium. I loved everything about Murkmire. The last expansion I enjoyed was Summerset - though even stretches of that felt forced and dragged out. For Morrowind, I actually enjoyed the Balmora side story more than the main story.

    As for the content... It's beginning to give me the same feeling FFXIV does one expansion to the next. Same cookie-cutter approach, repeated over and over, with different scenery and some new names. Only things that get me excited are the return of liked characters.. for me that's Naryu and Eveli. Always fun hearing Bill Nighy's delivery of King Emmeric's lines. I really love exploring the dungeons - they're always so well done, IMO

    Anyway... I didn't even make it completely through Blackmarsh before deciding to just move on again. I don't even know if I'll bother going back at this point. Each return has been shorter than the last, and maybe I should just take that as a sign.
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 24,423
    Iselin said:

    I had hoped that by now someone in some MMO would have matched or surpassed the more spontaneous feeling, zone disruptions and length of Rift's zone invasion events. ESO certainly hasn't. 


    Full out invasions were truly massive in scale. Beyond that, rifts were integrated into play in so many other ways dolmens and such are one trick ponies in comparison.
    I would like to see something like 'The Nemesis System' from the Shadow of Mordor/War
    brought into MMORPGs 
    Yes but if it worked you do realise that every MMO would then have to have it? :)
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 24,423
    edited July 2022
    Scot said:
    It does not sound as bad as some posters implied then, just not as good as it could be. But I think if they keep doing cliff hangers which look like your TV box failed to record this episodes ending they will damage the strength of the narrative in players eyes. Waiting until all parts have wrapped up is an option of course, but I doubt players who play regularly will want to wait that long.
    MMORPGs are never as good as they could be from the vast number of differing perspectives they are judged by. What they can be is good enough to enough, which ESO has done consistently enough for the game to have enduring popularity.
    That's the beauty of MMORPG's the sum is greater than the parts, a genre that truly deserves to be called a gestalt,
  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member EpicPosts: 4,582
    Iselin said:

    I had hoped that by now someone in some MMO would have matched or surpassed the more spontaneous feeling, zone disruptions and length of Rift's zone invasion events. ESO certainly hasn't. 


    Full out invasions were truly massive in scale. Beyond that, rifts were integrated into play in so many other ways dolmens and such are one trick ponies in comparison.
    I would like to see something like 'The Nemesis System' from the Shadow of Mordor/War
    brought into MMORPGs 

    I'm not familiar with that system.

    Champions Online has a system of the same name. It allows you to create a custom archnemesis for your hero, costume and all, select their minion type, and their overall nature which affects their behaviour and dialogue when you encounter them.

    After you will sometimes run into their minions through the course of play. Defeating them will often provide a clue to the villain's nefarious plan of the day so that you can show up and thwart their flunkies or perhaps encounter the archnemesis directly.

    Rewards come along with specific to that system to entice participation, of course. So far as I know it is the only superhero MMORPG to have that feature, perhaps the only one overall.
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  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 24,423
    edited July 2022
    The Shadow of Mordor/War Nemesis System (which has been patented by Warner Bros. Interactive unfortunately) creates a broad overarching system for an enemy. It is all completely dynamic and unscripted.
    The system allows for emergent storytelling by creating unique enemies with their own skills, graphics, power levels, ranks, fighting styles,traits and so on.
    They create unique missions for the player and the other enemies.
    Some Nemesis will develop relationships with other Nemesis (teaming up like a Nemesis Warlord recruiting Nemesis Captain) Or even killing each other for control over an area.      Each time a Nemesis completes a mission (they have their own quests) they grow in power. The longer they stay alive and the more missions they complete the stronger they become. The positive to that is that the stronger they become the better the rewards are for defeating them. 
    They can grow from a simple grunt, to a champion, to a captain, all the way to a War Chief or Warlord with their own fortress and an army to command. 
    The player interacts with the system in all kinds of ways that can influence the development of the Nemesis both good and/or bad.
    Like if you dominate a captain and turn him to your side you can create orders for him to infiltrate the Nemesis camp and try and assasinate him. If he fails though he becomes more powerful.
     
    It is a complex system that allows for amazing emergent gameplay moments. Outside of the main gameplay loops.

    We will probably see the Nemesis sytem in the new Wonder Woman game the studio is developing but it would be great to see other uses for it and to see it expanded on. Though with WB holding the patent until 2035 it seems unlikely we will see it's full potential.  
    And the nemesis's  are likely to be Amazons themselves or someone who has invaded Themyscira. Oh and Faltz, what that means is a game that might have had a gothic modern(ish) city setting will get set where? On a fantasy island of course, one size fits all.

  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member EpicPosts: 4,582
    The Shadow of Mordor/War Nemesis System (which has been patented by Warner Bros. Interactive unfortunately) creates a broad overarching system for an enemy. It is all completely dynamic and unscripted.
    The system allows for emergent storytelling by creating unique enemies with their own skills, graphics, power levels, ranks, fighting styles,traits and so on.
    They create unique missions for the player and the other enemies.
    Some Nemesis will develop relationships with other Nemesis (teaming up like a Nemesis Warlord recruiting Nemesis Captain) Or even killing each other for control over an area.      Each time a Nemesis completes a mission (they have their own quests) they grow in power. The longer they stay alive and the more missions they complete the stronger they become. The positive to that is that the stronger they become the better the rewards are for defeating them. 
    They can grow from a simple grunt, to a champion, to a captain, all the way to a War Chief or Warlord with their own fortress and an army to command. 
    The player interacts with the system in all kinds of ways that can influence the development of the Nemesis both good and/or bad.
    Like if you dominate a captain and turn him to your side you can create orders for him to infiltrate the Nemesis camp and try and assasinate him. If he fails though he becomes more powerful.
     
    It is a complex system that allows for amazing emergent gameplay moments. Outside of the main gameplay loops.

    We will probably see the Nemesis sytem in the new Wonder Woman game the studio is developing but it would be great to see other uses for it and to see it expanded on. Though with WB holding the patent until 2035 it seems unlikely we will see it's full potential.  

    Pretty neat.

    It's somewhat similar to the emergent game play of the ARPGs made by Soldak Entertainment. Basically, instead of the NPCs is those games passively hanging around until you encounter them they act on their own agendas while you pursue yours. Dynamic situations arise.

    While the aesthetics of their games aren't that great they have interesting features that while similar between them are tweaked to be somewhat different for each title.
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