If you want a more social game, you need to have more social features.
No amount of dungeons, raids, or content, especially not content that forces players to suffer though dealing with each other, will help build communities.
You want to have players build communities, give them good tools to build those communities.
Right now, most games have really lacking community building tools.
Simple as that.
I think the question is what exactly are the best social features to implement which clearly from this thread many disagree on.
I have talked about this at length on other threads.
But being able to build specific social groups, like Clans, Family, Teams, Guilds, Army, Faction, each with their own social tier, and co-existing, as opposed to this one size fits all Guild system that exists.
Adding in Emotes that interact players to each other.
Allowing for Special Events, like Weddings and Funerals for example
A lot of the Role Play, aspects of a game, are great tools to build that social construct.
And sadly, MMO's are really lacking in this regard.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Oh yeah!
Seriously, I had a blast playing Dark age of Camelot for the PvE and the PVP! I remember waiting for a spot in a group to hunt Fins. People would host a list of players and call you when a spot open. I remember also making group and going out to hunt some other spot! I wish I could go back to that moment
Oh yeah!
Seriously, I had a blast playing Dark age of Camelot for the PvE and the PVP! I remember waiting for a spot in a group to hunt Fins. People would host a list of players and call you when a spot open. I remember also making group and going out to hunt some other spot! I wish I could go back to that moment
I also remember waiting around quite a bit, hunting nearby perhaps until the call for an opening came at fins or trees, hours on some bad nights even, especially for certain classes.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I come from the early days too. I'd argue it wasn't group hunts themselves that were to source of building freindships, rather it was the downtime built into those hunts when you were required to /rest to regain stamina, health, and magicka. In this day and age, instances are a smart idea due to how players like to meta-game. Meta-gamers will take over all spawn points, leaving those who enjoy the journey unable to progress. The same thing happened in the old days, but the servers didn't hold as many players as the mega-servers we're used to playing on now. I think instances are still needed, but group reliance needs to come back.
Having to interact with players as you described was fine, but I prefer auction houses. I never made friends or talked much with people who made my gear. It was more of a business transaction than anything. The new work order system I'm seeing in WoW's next expansion sounds like a good step in the right direction.
I like your third suggestion. Perhaps when grouped with guild-mates, you earn x% more experience and loot rarity % is boosted for each guild-mate your grouped with.
Speaking of guilds, it wouldn't be a bad idea for MMORPG's to offer a more robust Guild Finder tool. Guild Recruiters need to be able to have enough space in their Guild Bio to include their objectives, the kind of players they're looking for, their loot distribution rules, time commitment preference from their members, and the type of activities and events they want to run. Potential applicants should be able to sort the guilds in a tool by what they're looking for and apply through the tool. The application process should work through the tool.
Also, a good voice and chat system should be included in the game. A lot of people don't like downloading addons, third party chat software, and etc to join a guild.
Lastly, I've changed a lot since I began MMORPG's in my early 20's in 2021. Since then, I've finished active duty, finished college, I'm deep in my career, and I've re-married and have a child on the way. I can't dedicate 8 hours in one session like I used to. I play in 1 hour increments maybe once a day, 7 days a week. I haven't played MMORPG's in two years because they're created to involve activities that just waste your time (ie. daily reputation grinds, slow loot acquisition, and so on). Games have gotten so bad about boosting their logged in metrics by players, that game design decisions are transparent in their ways to keep you logged in. It's no longer a game in my eyes when these design decisions are blatant.
In the end, the founding players of the MMORPG genre are middle-age or older. Many of us are still gamers. We still want virtual worlds to explore and to build our characters in over the years. Just make this doable in smaller time blocks is all and remove the need for guilds to have to schedule "raid" nights to actually complete these activities. I have ideas on how to make all this work, but the post has gotten long enough.
In summary, I do miss the old days of MMORPG gaming, but I've gotten older. I still want to play MMORPG's, and build friendships with the people I play with, but the design decisions of modern MMORPG's have driven players away that are like me. Time is valuable to older people, so don't waste our time. Given the right tools and focus from the developers, their players will be able to build a community.
The magic of forming relationships boils down to quality time. Not just time, but quality time. That's what fostered all these friendships in games like EQ or DAoC. If you wanted to get anywhere in the game past the newbie zone you had to group, you had to work together, and you had to spend a lot of time doing it. Anything less and you weren't going to get far in the game. When you have to work together to achieve a goal, suddenly everyone gets polite. It's all please and thank you. No one is trolling or arguing politics because that's the fast train to sitting on the sidelines.
Modern MMOs are largely massively single player online roleplaying games. What group content is there is bite sized, facilitated by group finders, and doesn't require much if any communication to complete. Which is all in opposition of forming friendships or even encouraging people to be nice to each other. That's why most modern MMO communities (of you want to call them that) are stinking cesspools, representative of the worst in us as humanity.
When group finders were introduced, I thought it was a godsend. I don't enjoy wasting time forming groups or looking for a group to take me. It's gotten worse over the last 15 years too. In the earlier days it wasn't so bad, because people were more inclusive. But over the last 15 years it's gotten more about your gear score, achievements, or some other player metric to exclude others from groups. Not to mention there are a greater proportion of players that DPS over Tanking, so you're left posting in the LFG channel for a long time. It's not the group finder tool that took away socialization, it's the lack of downtime between pulls. In DAoC and SWG, it's between pulls that we talked with each other, not during combat when we were mashing our buttons.
What Game Features Do MMORPGs Need to Foster Better Player Relationships? | One Good Roll | MMORPG.com
If you had to make some changes to MMORPGs of today, what features would you add to create a game where players would want to build lasting relationships with each other?
First of all, the whole thing about "but MMORPGs were founded on the premise of playing together with one another" - this is not entirely correct. The premise of MMORPGs is that you're existing in a "Massively Multiplayer Online" world, where yes, there are other players, BUT you are not necessarily "playing together" with them, you just have a choice of doing that. Or doing something else, completely solo, and at no point should you EVER be forced to "play together" with anyone, to be their personal "dungeon loot grinding slave", in any MMORPG.
As for what I personally would add to make other people care about building relationships - I guess support for VR hardware, specifically body motion trackers. And maybe an ability to create a fully custom avatar design and import it into the game in a way every other player will be able to see this (though this would be more technically complicated in a large game, and obviously there would be ToS limitations for such creations). I can't think of anything else that would NATURALLY enhance socialization between players and would make players care about "building lasting relationships", the kind of relationships that would last far beyond the mind-numbingly boring "group projects" like "we are farming the Extreme raid today, loot priority is given to players X, Y and Z, your turn will come some day later, after we farmed loot for everyone - we will stop bashing dumb instanced AI bosses, unsubscribe and wait for next patch that will give yet another dumb instanced AI boss to grind for ilvl640 gear sets for our group". This is also something that should work even for people who dislike any form of PvP in any games. Or dislike wasting hours on pressing pre-defined button combinations to "craft" same item that millions of other players in same game can also craft, using limited amount of pre-defined "recipes" and limited amount of pre-defined "crafting components".
Sorry but it's not going to happen today. Players today just care about loot. They will group up for that then part ways. It's sad really because i remember how it was with the first gen.mmo's. And back then only computer nerds played mmo's. They weren't mainstream at all. 2001 i was playing Anarchy Online and on the weekends all the nightclubs and bars would be filled with players just hanging out getting to know new people. Even devs would login and start events and giveaways out of the blue. Devs today wouldn't dare do that because they would get toxic players bugging them. Sad but those days are over now.
Couldn't agree more. Players had to build relationships if they wanted to get anything done. There were just fewer options. Today they'll go play something else at the hint of any difficulty or grouping requirements.
The picture of FFXI for me is a perfect example. It's also the last MMORPG i played and made long lasting friends and memories.
Perseverance through hard times fosters community. But the group content is too easy and folks complain when it's "too hard".
The time that has been spent also needs to feel meaningful and add to the story and history we create when playing. I don't want to be in a dungeon for the loot but for the experience, finding an awesome sword or armour piece with the lore behind it is a bonus.
The whole landscape of MMORPGs have changed. We have completely different types of players and making them play together is challenging. A lot of changes have been made and things that were considered sacred is no longer the case.
We also have a lot of players who prefer to solo so you cannot ignore them either if you want your game to succeed. I don't know the answer but forcing players to play together does also make them leave the game when they find themselves unable to progress. Balancing that is the key but I'll be damned if I know the way.
The whole landscape of MMORPGs have changed. We have completely different types of players and making them play together is challenging. A lot of changes have been made and things that were considered sacred is no longer the case.
We also have a lot of players who prefer to solo so you cannot ignore them either if you want your game to succeed. I don't know the answer but forcing players to play together does also make them leave the game when they find themselves unable to progress. Balancing that is the key but I'll be damned if I know the way.
You cannot force players to play together if they don't want to. On the other hand, a lot of MMORPG players want to, or would if it's in the design at any rate.
The question is, does a game want to be more social. What are the benefits? - - Allows friendships to form. - - Good for Guilds and recruitment - - Gives players another reason to stay - - Fosters a richer feel to the game world - - Even non-guilded can more easily find groups from their relationships - - Makes any downtime more enjoyable - - Allows players to find "like-minded" - - More than "just a game" - - Offers more to do in-game through Player run events - - Gives more meaning to fame than just a name on a list - - Makes players feel their characters are a part of the world through recognition
In effect, socialization makes the game come alive in ways that don't happen without it.
UO had bulletin boards that you could place on the outside of your house. This allowed for player interactions, especially in the Player Vendor shops. A Vendor who made gear, for example, could take orders. This wasn't more social until players got to know the names, and then met the other player. It offered a chance for players who want to socialize, even just a little, to meet up with someone they know of through their dealings.
This doesn't work with auction houses. And it can be a drag to have to search through player shops for what you want. A system to be able to search for real time inventories would be desirable. So instead of auction houses in cities, you could have Vendor inventory lists (with search function) and a means to teleport there and back.
Broken record, I could never truly get into XIV because it feels like a watered down version of XI.
Old MMO like XI had a sense of danger; if you get aggroed by a tougher enemy, 9/10....Its over lol. In XI, many players would actually form relationships out of need. Escorts through zones, aiding with quest items you were to low to solo, and getting past level caps.
Not a social person at heart, but I would even attempt to break the language barrier and ask Japanese for help in XI......9/10....they would help hahaha.
Need a XI-2, or a remaster; it is SE best multiplayer title hands down.
There are a lot good modern features that I feel would still work fine if things weren't sullied in order to make them 'work,' like LFG/LFR. The main reason why those systems dont really work is because its 'another difficulty' to things instead of just matching people up a 'normal' raid difficulty or something like that. These systems are also notorious for rewarding people for doing next to nothing in many cases, so having rewards eligibility being determined by role contribution might help counter lazy people or just outright selling clears.
As long as people value different things, there will be people angering other people. The majority of people on this site value graphics higher than anything else. I value the type of gameplay I enjoy over anything else, and graphics is on the bottom of my list. Neither is right, neither is wrong, it is just opinions and values. But, because of this, we'll never see eye to eye and always have issues. To make just this forum non-toxic for me, you'd have to prevent the majority of the community from stating their usual, "GFX looks like crap!!!11221!," on new game announcements and vice versa.
This mythical non-toxic community is impossible unless humans become so homogenized they are basically clones. Just do what people always do and join or stick with a small subcommunity of a community that pisses you off the least. Just look at age - my youngest kid is probably about the same age as the majority of people playing any new mmorpg. There is a huge difference in values, perspective, attitude, and patience between a late 40's person and a mid-teens person - and that is good! That is how it is supposed to be. It is life progression and normal. At my age I shouldn't want to hang out with teens, or enjoy communicating with teens, and teens shouldn't enjoy hanging out with old fuddy-duddies like me.
There are exceptions to everything, but by-and-large, things are how they should be, and artificial and forced means to remove these natural rifts between people and groups based on values, wants, enjoyment, age, etc., will just exacerbate the issues, instead of bringing people closer to some imaging community utopia.
The goal of the MMO industry is catter as most people as they can.
This is, in a nutshell, why the state of the MMORPG industry is incredibly poor.
MMORPGs were a very specific genre when they were first created. They catered to a specific type of gamer. Trying to make "specific type of gamer" into "every gamer possible" is why Black Desert included that atrocious action combat system that just makes me want to load up the Arkham games or, hell, even one of my old copies of Dynasty Warriors. It's why WoW tried to go hard into esports, and why leveling in that game is now silently spamming dungeon runs as fast as you can. It's why SW:TOR among others, until recently, *actually included content they forced players to complete alone*.
And it's why the genre is pretty much completely irrelevant today, while other "OG" genres' like cRPGs have enjoyed a front and center renaissance: MMORPGs tried to be everything to everybody, and they ended up being watered down, shittier versions of dozens and dozens of games from other genres. Gamers at large don't really give a shit about your story, Bioware, when we can enjoy a Star Wars narrative presented far better still in KOTOR or, hell, even Fallen Order, despite the lack of branching narrative options. Gamers don't really give a shit if Black Desert's action combat system is better than WoW's tab target when both can't hold a candle to the smaller action games being mimicked. Gamers don't really give a shit if you include PvP capture the flag when they can play a MOBA and enjoy a much better arena-style PvP game without wasting time leveling or hearing their toons.
The whole landscape of MMORPGs have changed. We have completely different types of players and making them play together is challenging. A lot of changes have been made and things that were considered sacred is no longer the case.
We also have a lot of players who prefer to solo so you cannot ignore them either if you want your game to succeed. I don't know the answer but forcing players to play together does also make them leave the game when they find themselves unable to progress. Balancing that is the key but I'll be damned if I know the way.
You cannot force players to play together if they don't want to. On the other hand, a lot of MMORPG players want to, or would if it's in the design at any rate.
The question is, does a game want to be more social. What are the benefits? - - Allows friendships to form. - - Good for Guilds and recruitment - - Gives players another reason to stay - - Fosters a richer feel to the game world - - Even non-guilded can more easily find groups from their relationships - - Makes any downtime more enjoyable - - Allows players to find "like-minded" - - More than "just a game" - - Offers more to do in-game through Player run events - - Gives more meaning to fame than just a name on a list - - Makes players feel their characters are a part of the world through recognition
In effect, socialization makes the game come alive in ways that don't happen without it.
I think the thing here, is that for me, Socialization is just that, being Social.
So when I need to focus on killing a dragon/god/vorpal bunny/some annoying hog that I hate the sound effect of, etc.. I am not in the mood to chat it up with you. I am doing something, and I am focusing on that.
IMHO the largest mistake that these game makers make, is thinking that players are going to socialize while doing tasks, no one does that. We don't socialize while we are laying bricks, we don't socialize while we are trying to get the paperwork done, we don't socialize while trying to get the ball to the touchdown line.
We socialize in-between all that.
We talk when sitting on the bench drinking Gatorade, or at the water cooler.
The thing is, modern MMO's don't have water coolers.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
The whole landscape of MMORPGs have changed. We have completely different types of players and making them play together is challenging. A lot of changes have been made and things that were considered sacred is no longer the case.
We also have a lot of players who prefer to solo so you cannot ignore them either if you want your game to succeed. I don't know the answer but forcing players to play together does also make them leave the game when they find themselves unable to progress. Balancing that is the key but I'll be damned if I know the way.
You cannot force players to play together if they don't want to. On the other hand, a lot of MMORPG players want to, or would if it's in the design at any rate.
The question is, does a game want to be more social. What are the benefits? - - Allows friendships to form. - - Good for Guilds and recruitment - - Gives players another reason to stay - - Fosters a richer feel to the game world - - Even non-guilded can more easily find groups from their relationships - - Makes any downtime more enjoyable - - Allows players to find "like-minded" - - More than "just a game" - - Offers more to do in-game through Player run events - - Gives more meaning to fame than just a name on a list - - Makes players feel their characters are a part of the world through recognition
In effect, socialization makes the game come alive in ways that don't happen without it.
I think the thing here, is that for me, Socialization is just that, being Social.
So when I need to focus on killing a dragon/god/vorpal bunny/some annoying hog that I hate the sound effect of, etc.. I am not in the mood to chat it up with you. I am doing something, and I am focusing on that.
IMHO the largest mistake that these game makers make, is thinking that players are going to socialize while doing tasks, no one does that. We don't socialize while we are laying bricks, we don't socialize while we are trying to get the paperwork done, we don't socialize while trying to get the ball to the touchdown line.
We socialize in-between all that.
We talk when sitting on the bench drinking Gatorade, or at the water cooler.
The thing is, modern MMO's don't have water coolers.
I think Runescape does it right there by having tasks that don't require constant attention and push lots of players into one place, like fishing or woodcutting.
Runescape also stands out to be as having a completely anti-linear world design where players of all different levels will constantly cross paths all the time, and can be doing different things for different levels in the same areas. That broadens the scope of what players you can keep running into rather than just ones at your level.
That being said I think discord did a lot of harm to MMOs because it moved all the idle chat outside of the game to in-groups.
The goal of the MMO industry is catter as most people as they can.
Here is the problem with this argument.
If this were true, then there would be a bunch of MMO's that are all more popular than they used to be. Yet all we see is a graveyard of failed MMO's. So obviously the strategy they are using is doing the exact opposite of catering to the most people.
If the MMO industry was actually trying to cater to the most people, then they are spectacularly failing at that. In the previous Generation of MMO's even average MMO's were hitting 300k+ SUBS for multiple years. Today most games cant even do it when they are FREE. Even the Top MMO's are less popular than they were a decade ago.
I see the exact opposite. I see games that want to appeal to a specific crowd like Crowfall and they die on that hill. Many of the indie MMO's are saying they will be a niche game. Or the other option is the Devs are just completely unimaginative, clueless and lazy.
No they hope to appeal to a target audience and hope everyone will fall in line. This is happening in all of entertainment. Or don't even care, and release absolute junk and hope people will play it because they have no alternative.
If they were truly trying to appeal to the masses, then they would have massive amounts of players. Something is disconnected. It probably comes down to laziness combined with greed.
The goal of the MMO industry is catter as most people as they can.
Here is the problem with this argument.
If this were true, then there would be a bunch of MMO's that are all more popular than they used to be. Yet all we see is a graveyard of failed MMO's. So obviously the strategy they are using is doing the exact opposite of catering to the most people.
If the MMO industry was actually trying to cater to the most people, then they are spectacularly failing at that. In the previous Generation of MMO's even average MMO's were hitting 300k+ SUBS for multiple years. Today most games cant even do it when they are FREE. Even the Top MMO's are less popular than they were a decade ago.
I see the exact opposite. I see games that want to appeal to a specific crowd like Crowfall and they die on that hill. Many of the indie MMO's are saying they will be a niche game. Or the other option is the Devs are just completely unimaginative, clueless and lazy.
No they hope to appeal to a target audience and hope everyone will fall in line. This is happening in all of entertainment. Or don't even care, and release absolute junk and hope people will play it because they have no alternative.
If they were truly trying to appeal to the masses, then they would have massive amounts of players. Something is disconnected. It probably comes down to laziness combined with greed.
I think eoloe was using that as part of an argument that current MMORPG offerings (outside of the hyper-focused ongoing crowdfunded projects) attempt to appeal to folks who don't really want a massively multiplayer experience. The type of folks who say things like "I'm so glad SW:TOR added companions so I can just experience the Bioware stories without having to interact with others."
In that way, I agree with his assessment. WoW's eSports push is an example. ESO's restriction of the main quest line to solo only instances is another (though haven't they changed that?). Neither appeal directly to people who want virtual worlds to inhabit with massively multiplayer interactions.
But, you are also right: almost all of the responding crowdfunded projects went the opposite direction. too high on their own, narrow supply to see the full picture.
The goal of the MMO industry is catter as most people as they can.
Here is the problem with this argument.
If this were true, then there would be a bunch of MMO's that are all more popular than they used to be. Yet all we see is a graveyard of failed MMO's. So obviously the strategy they are using is doing the exact opposite of catering to the most people.
If the MMO industry was actually trying to cater to the most people, then they are spectacularly failing at that. In the previous Generation of MMO's even average MMO's were hitting 300k+ SUBS for multiple years. Today most games cant even do it when they are FREE. Even the Top MMO's are less popular than they were a decade ago.
Actually I think they are trying to cater to the most people (with the odd exception here and there, and they are indeed failing at it.
I also wonder about that 300k amount. Was that really kept up over years or was that "at highest population."
I'm inclined to believe it was the latter.
If it's the former then I'd offer that the original group of people, the lion's share of them, are probably not interested in mmorpg's anymore. At least playing for hours and hours on end like we used to.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
The goal of the MMO industry is catter as most people as they can.
Here is the problem with this argument.
If this were true, then there would be a bunch of MMO's that are all more popular than they used to be. Yet all we see is a graveyard of failed MMO's. So obviously the strategy they are using is doing the exact opposite of catering to the most people.
If the MMO industry was actually trying to cater to the most people, then they are spectacularly failing at that. In the previous Generation of MMO's even average MMO's were hitting 300k+ SUBS for multiple years. Today most games cant even do it when they are FREE. Even the Top MMO's are less popular than they were a decade ago.
Actually I think they are trying to cater to the most people (with the odd exception here and there, and they are indeed failing at it.
I also wonder about that 300k amount. Was that really kept up over years or was that "at highest population."
I'm inclined to believe it was the latter.
If it's the former then I'd offer that the original group of people, the lion's share of them, are probably not interested in mmorpg's anymore. At least playing for hours and hours on end like we used to.
There is the traditional wisdom- that gamers just don't have the time anymore for these deep MMORPG systems that require time dedication- but that's not supported by studies. We see folks state that the OG gamers have wives and kids now, and that age of hardcore binge gaming has passed. But...
Per a 2021 study, 44% of gamers play games more than 7 hours a week. A quarter play more than 12 hours per week. In 2020, there were over 2.5 billion gamers worldwide. And a third of those gamers stated they regularly play up to 5 hours at a time.
Some conservative napkin math indicates that would create about 625 million gamers playing more than 12 hours a week. If we set the bar at over 7 hours a week, that balloons to over a billion. And again: that's a conservative estimate.
You are right in a much more specific manner than the traditional wisdom: It isn't that gamers don't have the time, if the studies are any indication. It's that they don't feel like MMORPG are worth that time.
The whole landscape of MMORPGs have changed. We have completely different types of players and making them play together is challenging. A lot of changes have been made and things that were considered sacred is no longer the case.
We also have a lot of players who prefer to solo so you cannot ignore them either if you want your game to succeed. I don't know the answer but forcing players to play together does also make them leave the game when they find themselves unable to progress. Balancing that is the key but I'll be damned if I know the way.
You cannot force players to play together if they don't want to. On the other hand, a lot of MMORPG players want to, or would if it's in the design at any rate.
The question is, does a game want to be more social. What are the benefits? - - Allows friendships to form. - - Good for Guilds and recruitment - - Gives players another reason to stay - - Fosters a richer feel to the game world - - Even non-guilded can more easily find groups from their relationships - - Makes any downtime more enjoyable - - Allows players to find "like-minded" - - More than "just a game" - - Offers more to do in-game through Player run events - - Gives more meaning to fame than just a name on a list - - Makes players feel their characters are a part of the world through recognition
In effect, socialization makes the game come alive in ways that don't happen without it.
I think the thing here, is that for me, Socialization is just that, being Social.
So when I need to focus on killing a dragon/god/vorpal bunny/some annoying hog that I hate the sound effect of, etc.. I am not in the mood to chat it up with you. I am doing something, and I am focusing on that.
IMHO the largest mistake that these game makers make, is thinking that players are going to socialize while doing tasks, no one does that. We don't socialize while we are laying bricks, we don't socialize while we are trying to get the paperwork done, we don't socialize while trying to get the ball to the touchdown line.
We socialize in-between all that.
We talk when sitting on the bench drinking Gatorade, or at the water cooler.
The thing is, modern MMO's don't have water coolers.
I think Runescape does it right there by having tasks that don't require constant attention and push lots of players into one place, like fishing or woodcutting.
Runescape also stands out to be as having a completely anti-linear world design where players of all different levels will constantly cross paths all the time, and can be doing different things for different levels in the same areas. That broadens the scope of what players you can keep running into rather than just ones at your level.
That being said I think discord did a lot of harm to MMOs because it moved all the idle chat outside of the game to in-groups.
"having tasks that don't require constant attention and push lots of players into one place, like fishing or woodcutting."
Yes, this was the point I wanted to make in reply too. There are loads of things for players to do that don't require hardcore attention.
What you want then in the game design is to enhance reasons for talking. An ever-changing world is a good place to start. Random. So that the cheat sites have a hard time to keep up, and players want to trade current information.
But you do want a relatively stable game world. There's lots of room for specific changes inside of that, though. Maybe unnoticeable to all but those who practice certain things, like fishing. Or actually spend time in certain areas long enough to notice. Such as Rangers who make it a point to keep informed on their forests.
The whole landscape of MMORPGs have changed. We have completely different types of players and making them play together is challenging. A lot of changes have been made and things that were considered sacred is no longer the case.
We also have a lot of players who prefer to solo so you cannot ignore them either if you want your game to succeed. I don't know the answer but forcing players to play together does also make them leave the game when they find themselves unable to progress. Balancing that is the key but I'll be damned if I know the way.
You cannot force players to play together if they don't want to. On the other hand, a lot of MMORPG players want to, or would if it's in the design at any rate.
The question is, does a game want to be more social. What are the benefits? - - Allows friendships to form. - - Good for Guilds and recruitment - - Gives players another reason to stay - - Fosters a richer feel to the game world - - Even non-guilded can more easily find groups from their relationships - - Makes any downtime more enjoyable - - Allows players to find "like-minded" - - More than "just a game" - - Offers more to do in-game through Player run events - - Gives more meaning to fame than just a name on a list - - Makes players feel their characters are a part of the world through recognition
In effect, socialization makes the game come alive in ways that don't happen without it.
I think the thing here, is that for me, Socialization is just that, being Social.
So when I need to focus on killing a dragon/god/vorpal bunny/some annoying hog that I hate the sound effect of, etc.. I am not in the mood to chat it up with you. I am doing something, and I am focusing on that.
IMHO the largest mistake that these game makers make, is thinking that players are going to socialize while doing tasks, no one does that. We don't socialize while we are laying bricks, we don't socialize while we are trying to get the paperwork done, we don't socialize while trying to get the ball to the touchdown line.
We socialize in-between all that.
We talk when sitting on the bench drinking Gatorade, or at the water cooler.
The thing is, modern MMO's don't have water coolers.
I think Runescape does it right there by having tasks that don't require constant attention and push lots of players into one place, like fishing or woodcutting.
Runescape also stands out to be as having a completely anti-linear world design where players of all different levels will constantly cross paths all the time, and can be doing different things for different levels in the same areas. That broadens the scope of what players you can keep running into rather than just ones at your level.
That being said I think discord did a lot of harm to MMOs because it moved all the idle chat outside of the game to in-groups.
"having tasks that don't require constant attention and push lots of players into one place, like fishing or woodcutting."
Yes, this was the point I wanted to make in reply too. There are loads of things for players to do that don't require hardcore attention.
What you want then in the game design is to enhance reasons for talking. An ever-changing world is a good place to start. Random. So that the cheat sites have a hard time to keep up, and players want to trade current information.
It would also add to the adventure aspect, not being able to look up guides explaining exactly how everything works, down to the math.
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But being able to build specific social groups, like Clans, Family, Teams, Guilds, Army, Faction, each with their own social tier, and co-existing, as opposed to this one size fits all Guild system that exists.
Adding in Emotes that interact players to each other.
Allowing for Special Events, like Weddings and Funerals for example
A lot of the Role Play, aspects of a game, are great tools to build that social construct.
And sadly, MMO's are really lacking in this regard.
Seriously, I had a blast playing Dark age of Camelot for the PvE and the PVP! I remember waiting for a spot in a group to hunt Fins. People would host a list of players and call you when a spot open. I remember also making group and going out to hunt some other spot! I wish I could go back to that moment
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Pluses and minuses as always.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Having to interact with players as you described was fine, but I prefer auction houses. I never made friends or talked much with people who made my gear. It was more of a business transaction than anything. The new work order system I'm seeing in WoW's next expansion sounds like a good step in the right direction.
I like your third suggestion. Perhaps when grouped with guild-mates, you earn x% more experience and loot rarity % is boosted for each guild-mate your grouped with.
Speaking of guilds, it wouldn't be a bad idea for MMORPG's to offer a more robust Guild Finder tool. Guild Recruiters need to be able to have enough space in their Guild Bio to include their objectives, the kind of players they're looking for, their loot distribution rules, time commitment preference from their members, and the type of activities and events they want to run. Potential applicants should be able to sort the guilds in a tool by what they're looking for and apply through the tool. The application process should work through the tool.
Also, a good voice and chat system should be included in the game. A lot of people don't like downloading addons, third party chat software, and etc to join a guild.
Lastly, I've changed a lot since I began MMORPG's in my early 20's in 2021. Since then, I've finished active duty, finished college, I'm deep in my career, and I've re-married and have a child on the way. I can't dedicate 8 hours in one session like I used to. I play in 1 hour increments maybe once a day, 7 days a week. I haven't played MMORPG's in two years because they're created to involve activities that just waste your time (ie. daily reputation grinds, slow loot acquisition, and so on). Games have gotten so bad about boosting their logged in metrics by players, that game design decisions are transparent in their ways to keep you logged in. It's no longer a game in my eyes when these design decisions are blatant.
In the end, the founding players of the MMORPG genre are middle-age or older. Many of us are still gamers. We still want virtual worlds to explore and to build our characters in over the years. Just make this doable in smaller time blocks is all and remove the need for guilds to have to schedule "raid" nights to actually complete these activities. I have ideas on how to make all this work, but the post has gotten long enough.
In summary, I do miss the old days of MMORPG gaming, but I've gotten older. I still want to play MMORPG's, and build friendships with the people I play with, but the design decisions of modern MMORPG's have driven players away that are like me. Time is valuable to older people, so don't waste our time. Given the right tools and focus from the developers, their players will be able to build a community.
As for what I personally would add to make other people care about building relationships - I guess support for VR hardware, specifically body motion trackers. And maybe an ability to create a fully custom avatar design and import it into the game in a way every other player will be able to see this (though this would be more technically complicated in a large game, and obviously there would be ToS limitations for such creations). I can't think of anything else that would NATURALLY enhance socialization between players and would make players care about "building lasting relationships", the kind of relationships that would last far beyond the mind-numbingly boring "group projects" like "we are farming the Extreme raid today, loot priority is given to players X, Y and Z, your turn will come some day later, after we farmed loot for everyone - we will stop bashing dumb instanced AI bosses, unsubscribe and wait for next patch that will give yet another dumb instanced AI boss to grind for ilvl640 gear sets for our group". This is also something that should work even for people who dislike any form of PvP in any games. Or dislike wasting hours on pressing pre-defined button combinations to "craft" same item that millions of other players in same game can also craft, using limited amount of pre-defined "recipes" and limited amount of pre-defined "crafting components".
Couldn't agree more. Players had to build relationships if they wanted to get anything done. There were just fewer options. Today they'll go play something else at the hint of any difficulty or grouping requirements.
The picture of FFXI for me is a perfect example. It's also the last MMORPG i played and made long lasting friends and memories.
The time that has been spent also needs to feel meaningful and add to the story and history we create when playing. I don't want to be in a dungeon for the loot but for the experience, finding an awesome sword or armour piece with the lore behind it is a bonus.
We also have a lot of players who prefer to solo so you cannot ignore them either if you want your game to succeed. I don't know the answer but forcing players to play together does also make them leave the game when they find themselves unable to progress. Balancing that is the key but I'll be damned if I know the way.
On the other hand, a lot of MMORPG players want to, or would if it's in the design at any rate.
The question is, does a game want to be more social.
What are the benefits?
- - Allows friendships to form.
- - Good for Guilds and recruitment
- - Gives players another reason to stay
- - Fosters a richer feel to the game world
- - Even non-guilded can more easily find groups from their relationships
- - Makes any downtime more enjoyable
- - Allows players to find "like-minded"
- - More than "just a game"
- - Offers more to do in-game through Player run events
- - Gives more meaning to fame than just a name on a list
- - Makes players feel their characters are a part of the world through recognition
In effect, socialization makes the game come alive in ways that don't happen without it.
Once upon a time....
This allowed for player interactions, especially in the Player Vendor shops. A Vendor who made gear, for example, could take orders.
This wasn't more social until players got to know the names, and then met the other player.
It offered a chance for players who want to socialize, even just a little, to meet up with someone they know of through their dealings.
This doesn't work with auction houses.
And it can be a drag to have to search through player shops for what you want.
A system to be able to search for real time inventories would be desirable.
So instead of auction houses in cities, you could have Vendor inventory lists (with search function) and a means to teleport there and back.
Once upon a time....
Old MMO like XI had a sense of danger; if you get aggroed by a tougher enemy, 9/10....Its over lol. In XI, many players would actually form relationships out of need. Escorts through zones, aiding with quest items you were to low to solo, and getting past level caps.
Not a social person at heart, but I would even attempt to break the language barrier and ask Japanese for help in XI......9/10....they would help hahaha.
Need a XI-2, or a remaster; it is SE best multiplayer title hands down.
This mythical non-toxic community is impossible unless humans become so homogenized they are basically clones. Just do what people always do and join or stick with a small subcommunity of a community that pisses you off the least. Just look at age - my youngest kid is probably about the same age as the majority of people playing any new mmorpg. There is a huge difference in values, perspective, attitude, and patience between a late 40's person and a mid-teens person - and that is good! That is how it is supposed to be. It is life progression and normal. At my age I shouldn't want to hang out with teens, or enjoy communicating with teens, and teens shouldn't enjoy hanging out with old fuddy-duddies like me.
There are exceptions to everything, but by-and-large, things are how they should be, and artificial and forced means to remove these natural rifts between people and groups based on values, wants, enjoyment, age, etc., will just exacerbate the issues, instead of bringing people closer to some imaging community utopia.
MMORPGs were a very specific genre when they were first created. They catered to a specific type of gamer. Trying to make "specific type of gamer" into "every gamer possible" is why Black Desert included that atrocious action combat system that just makes me want to load up the Arkham games or, hell, even one of my old copies of Dynasty Warriors. It's why WoW tried to go hard into esports, and why leveling in that game is now silently spamming dungeon runs as fast as you can. It's why SW:TOR among others, until recently, *actually included content they forced players to complete alone*.
And it's why the genre is pretty much completely irrelevant today, while other "OG" genres' like cRPGs have enjoyed a front and center renaissance: MMORPGs tried to be everything to everybody, and they ended up being watered down, shittier versions of dozens and dozens of games from other genres. Gamers at large don't really give a shit about your story, Bioware, when we can enjoy a Star Wars narrative presented far better still in KOTOR or, hell, even Fallen Order, despite the lack of branching narrative options. Gamers don't really give a shit if Black Desert's action combat system is better than WoW's tab target when both can't hold a candle to the smaller action games being mimicked. Gamers don't really give a shit if you include PvP capture the flag when they can play a MOBA and enjoy a much better arena-style PvP game without wasting time leveling or hearing their toons.
So when I need to focus on killing a dragon/god/vorpal bunny/some annoying hog that I hate the sound effect of, etc.. I am not in the mood to chat it up with you. I am doing something, and I am focusing on that.
IMHO the largest mistake that these game makers make, is thinking that players are going to socialize while doing tasks, no one does that. We don't socialize while we are laying bricks, we don't socialize while we are trying to get the paperwork done, we don't socialize while trying to get the ball to the touchdown line.
We socialize in-between all that.
We talk when sitting on the bench drinking Gatorade, or at the water cooler.
The thing is, modern MMO's don't have water coolers.
Runescape also stands out to be as having a completely anti-linear world design where players of all different levels will constantly cross paths all the time, and can be doing different things for different levels in the same areas. That broadens the scope of what players you can keep running into rather than just ones at your level.
That being said I think discord did a lot of harm to MMOs because it moved all the idle chat outside of the game to in-groups.
If this were true, then there would be a bunch of MMO's that are all more popular than they used to be. Yet all we see is a graveyard of failed MMO's. So obviously the strategy they are using is doing the exact opposite of catering to the most people.
If the MMO industry was actually trying to cater to the most people, then they are spectacularly failing at that. In the previous Generation of MMO's even average MMO's were hitting 300k+ SUBS for multiple years. Today most games cant even do it when they are FREE. Even the Top MMO's are less popular than they were a decade ago.
I see the exact opposite. I see games that want to appeal to a specific crowd like Crowfall and they die on that hill. Many of the indie MMO's are saying they will be a niche game. Or the other option is the Devs are just completely unimaginative, clueless and lazy.
No they hope to appeal to a target audience and hope everyone will fall in line. This is happening in all of entertainment. Or don't even care, and release absolute junk and hope people will play it because they have no alternative.
If they were truly trying to appeal to the masses, then they would have massive amounts of players. Something is disconnected. It probably comes down to laziness combined with greed.
In that way, I agree with his assessment. WoW's eSports push is an example. ESO's restriction of the main quest line to solo only instances is another (though haven't they changed that?). Neither appeal directly to people who want virtual worlds to inhabit with massively multiplayer interactions.
But, you are also right: almost all of the responding crowdfunded projects went the opposite direction. too high on their own, narrow supply to see the full picture.
I also wonder about that 300k amount. Was that really kept up over years or was that "at highest population."
I'm inclined to believe it was the latter.
If it's the former then I'd offer that the original group of people, the lion's share of them, are probably not interested in mmorpg's anymore. At least playing for hours and hours on end like we used to.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Per a 2021 study, 44% of gamers play games more than 7 hours a week. A quarter play more than 12 hours per week. In 2020, there were over 2.5 billion gamers worldwide. And a third of those gamers stated they regularly play up to 5 hours at a time.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.techrepublic.com/article/8-hours-and-27-minutes-thats-how-long-the-average-gamer-plays-each-week/amp/
Some conservative napkin math indicates that would create about 625 million gamers playing more than 12 hours a week. If we set the bar at over 7 hours a week, that balloons to over a billion. And again: that's a conservative estimate.
You are right in a much more specific manner than the traditional wisdom: It isn't that gamers don't have the time, if the studies are any indication. It's that they don't feel like MMORPG are worth that time.
Yes, this was the point I wanted to make in reply too.
There are loads of things for players to do that don't require hardcore attention.
What you want then in the game design is to enhance reasons for talking. An ever-changing world is a good place to start. Random. So that the cheat sites have a hard time to keep up, and players want to trade current information.
But you do want a relatively stable game world. There's lots of room for specific changes inside of that, though. Maybe unnoticeable to all but those who practice certain things, like fishing.
Or actually spend time in certain areas long enough to notice. Such as Rangers who make it a point to keep informed on their forests.
Once upon a time....