People calling for all this government action are missing a simple solution. Really only need consumer protection laws, where 1) kickstarter is required to give refunds for undelivered projects and 2) these businesses cannot collect money from customers without putting the money in trust or through a 3rd party like kickstarter.
Here is the solution: KS just needs to hold all money until the project is delivered as described. Any projects over $100,000 require a 3rd party auditor to verify final completion before releasing funds.
Now before you say, well they need the money to build it upfront. The way for that is they need to overestimate their costs. This way Venture Capitalists will see the accumulated funds in the Kickstarter and want a piece of the action.
If the VC's can get 30% of the money they will happily loan these games the cash. Additionally the VC's will put in place all the requirements to hold these devs accountable and dole out the cash accordingly after meeting required markers to lower their own risk.
Either way the VC's are holding the risk not the customer. The money isn't released unless it passes a final audit on completion and if it doesn't release by deadline all cash is returned to the customer.
If customer knew they were guaranteed money back by failed delivery deadline their would be WAY WAY more money put into these projects.
Well as long as this case goes on there is still hope for them to recover some funds.
One thing is for sure if this asshole tries this again people will hopefully be made aware of his history on Reddit and other places when he tries to promote his new scam.
Look at all the red flags that went up about Dreamworld all over social media, they had a very questioning article on MMORPG.com. Did it make any difference? Well maybe in the long term but they still got the CF they needed to get going. So certainly, let's call them out, but don't be surprised if many people still chip in.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
People calling for all this government action are missing a simple solution. Really only need consumer protection laws, where 1) kickstarter is required to give refunds for undelivered projects and 2) these businesses cannot collect money from customers without putting the money in trust or through a 3rd party like kickstarter.
Here is the solution: KS just needs to hold all money until the project is delivered as described. Any projects over $100,000 require a 3rd party auditor to verify final completion before releasing funds.
Now before you say, well they need the money to build it upfront. The way for that is they need to overestimate their costs. This way Venture Capitalists will see the accumulated funds in the Kickstarter and want a piece of the action.
If the VC's can get 30% of the money they will happily loan these games the cash. Additionally the VC's will put in place all the requirements to hold these devs accountable and dole out the cash accordingly after meeting required markers to lower their own risk.
Either way the VC's are holding the risk not the customer. The money isn't released unless it passes a final audit on completion and if it doesn't release by deadline all cash is returned to the customer.
If customer knew they were guaranteed money back by failed delivery deadline their would be WAY WAY more money put into these projects.
VC's would hold devs accountable.
Problem Solved.
Venture capitalists are in it to make profit. So, they'd happily fund Kickstarter projects and set the price of their capital so high that successful projects fully pay for the failed projects plus their decent profit.
I think that would be too much government intervention. The cost of capital for successful projects would be too high.
Xsolla also hired good lawyers who got the case against them pushed to binding arbitration rather than class action.
Meaning every plaintiff has to file their own case against Xsolla.
The lawyer handling the case offered to work with all of them individually, but not really sure how that is working out.
I don't know if that is about Xsolla's lawyers being good. Rather Xsolla had an arbitration clause, and it was an uphill battle to try to get the courts ignore it.
Xsolla also hired good lawyers who got the case against them pushed to binding arbitration rather than class action.
Meaning every plaintiff has to file their own case against Xsolla.
The lawyer handling the case offered to work with all of them individually, but not really sure how that is working out.
I don't know if that is about Xsolla's lawyers being good. Rather Xsolla had an arbitration clause, and it was an uphill battle to try to get the courts ignore it.
True, after all same lawyers totally whoopsed on the refund clause, right?
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
People calling for all this government action are missing a simple solution. Really only need consumer protection laws, where 1) kickstarter is required to give refunds for undelivered projects and 2) these businesses cannot collect money from customers without putting the money in trust or through a 3rd party like kickstarter.
Here is the solution: KS just needs to hold all money until the project is delivered as described. Any projects over $100,000 require a 3rd party auditor to verify final completion before releasing funds.
Now before you say, well they need the money to build it upfront. The way for that is they need to overestimate their costs. This way Venture Capitalists will see the accumulated funds in the Kickstarter and want a piece of the action.
If the VC's can get 30% of the money they will happily loan these games the cash. Additionally the VC's will put in place all the requirements to hold these devs accountable and dole out the cash accordingly after meeting required markers to lower their own risk.
Either way the VC's are holding the risk not the customer. The money isn't released unless it passes a final audit on completion and if it doesn't release by deadline all cash is returned to the customer.
If customer knew they were guaranteed money back by failed delivery deadline their would be WAY WAY more money put into these projects.
VC's would hold devs accountable.
Problem Solved.
Interesting solution. It might even work. Very largely dependent on how well the VCs could hold developers accountable. Equally, it might end up with corrupt VCs collaborating with corrupt devs to really hurt customers.
I'd rather see the Securities and Exchange Commission get involved (for US companies), as most of these crowdfunded efforts are treating those contributing the funding as investors only without the security provided by other investment instruments. Anything further from the government would probably be out of line.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
People calling for all this government action are missing a simple solution. Really only need consumer protection laws, where 1) kickstarter is required to give refunds for undelivered projects and 2) these businesses cannot collect money from customers without putting the money in trust or through a 3rd party like kickstarter.
Here is the solution: KS just needs to hold all money until the project is delivered as described. Any projects over $100,000 require a 3rd party auditor to verify final completion before releasing funds.
Now before you say, well they need the money to build it upfront. The way for that is they need to overestimate their costs. This way Venture Capitalists will see the accumulated funds in the Kickstarter and want a piece of the action.
If the VC's can get 30% of the money they will happily loan these games the cash. Additionally the VC's will put in place all the requirements to hold these devs accountable and dole out the cash accordingly after meeting required markers to lower their own risk.
Either way the VC's are holding the risk not the customer. The money isn't released unless it passes a final audit on completion and if it doesn't release by deadline all cash is returned to the customer.
If customer knew they were guaranteed money back by failed delivery deadline their would be WAY WAY more money put into these projects.
VC's would hold devs accountable.
Problem Solved.
Which makes the whole reason to crowd fund a game null and void. The biggest benefit of crowd funding (supposedly anyway) is it gives the project creators the freedom to make something without the interference of the bean counters and empty suits you have to deal with at a normal production company. Honestly its essentially cyber begging. Your way would make Kick Starter and the aforementioned venture capitalists their bosses. So they are right back at dealing with the bureaucracy of bean counters and empty suits. Why on earth would anyone choose to do things this way?
Its odd that outside the gaming industry crowd funding has been largely successful. I'm curious about why the gaming industry is so incompetent.
People calling for all this government action are missing a simple solution. Really only need consumer protection laws, where 1) kickstarter is required to give refunds for undelivered projects and 2) these businesses cannot collect money from customers without putting the money in trust or through a 3rd party like kickstarter.
Here is the solution: KS just needs to hold all money until the project is delivered as described. Any projects over $100,000 require a 3rd party auditor to verify final completion before releasing funds.
Now before you say, well they need the money to build it upfront. The way for that is they need to overestimate their costs. This way Venture Capitalists will see the accumulated funds in the Kickstarter and want a piece of the action.
If the VC's can get 30% of the money they will happily loan these games the cash. Additionally the VC's will put in place all the requirements to hold these devs accountable and dole out the cash accordingly after meeting required markers to lower their own risk.
Either way the VC's are holding the risk not the customer. The money isn't released unless it passes a final audit on completion and if it doesn't release by deadline all cash is returned to the customer.
If customer knew they were guaranteed money back by failed delivery deadline their would be WAY WAY more money put into these projects.
VC's would hold devs accountable.
Problem Solved.
Which makes the whole reason to crowd fund a game null and void. The biggest benefit of crowd funding (supposedly anyway) is it gives the project creators the freedom to make something without the interference of the bean counters and empty suits you have to deal with at a normal production company. Honestly its essentially cyber begging. Your way would make Kick Starter and the aforementioned venture capitalists their bosses. So they are right back at dealing with the bureaucracy of bean counters and empty suits. Why on earth would anyone choose to do things this way?
Its odd that outside the gaming industry crowd funding has been largely successful. I'm curious about why the gaming industry is so incompetent.
Its not all gaming. Ive had a lot of non MMOs I backed that were delivered and did fine. It's MMOs that seem to not be a good match
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Its odd that outside the gaming industry crowd funding has been largely successful.
You seem to have an overly optimistic view of crowdfunding. Guess you can say it's still a majority success, but a 40% failure rate isn't exactly something I'd loft up either.
EDIT: Talking more directly to Kickstarter as a platform, supposedly they have closer to 9-10% for failed deliverables, and it's actually pretty even across the categories.
Its odd that outside the gaming industry crowd funding has been largely successful.
You seem to have an overly optimistic view of crowdfunding. Guess you can say it's still a majority success, but a 40% failure rate isn't exactly something I'd loft up either.
Yes I imagine you are correct. I'm mostly basing my opinion on my personal experience with backing four whole crowd funded properties. The shinning jewel that is the MST3K reboot, Murder by Death's last album, and a couple of other more obscure music projects.
People calling for all this government action are missing a simple solution. Really only need consumer protection laws, where 1) kickstarter is required to give refunds for undelivered projects and 2) these businesses cannot collect money from customers without putting the money in trust or through a 3rd party like kickstarter.
Here is the solution: KS just needs to hold all money until the project is delivered as described. Any projects over $100,000 require a 3rd party auditor to verify final completion before releasing funds.
Now before you say, well they need the money to build it upfront. The way for that is they need to overestimate their costs. This way Venture Capitalists will see the accumulated funds in the Kickstarter and want a piece of the action.
If the VC's can get 30% of the money they will happily loan these games the cash. Additionally the VC's will put in place all the requirements to hold these devs accountable and dole out the cash accordingly after meeting required markers to lower their own risk.
Either way the VC's are holding the risk not the customer. The money isn't released unless it passes a final audit on completion and if it doesn't release by deadline all cash is returned to the customer.
If customer knew they were guaranteed money back by failed delivery deadline their would be WAY WAY more money put into these projects.
VC's would hold devs accountable.
Problem Solved.
Which makes the whole reason to crowd fund a game null and void. The biggest benefit of crowd funding (supposedly anyway) is it gives the project creators the freedom to make something without the interference of the bean counters and empty suits you have to deal with at a normal production company. Honestly its essentially cyber begging. Your way would make Kick Starter and the aforementioned venture capitalists their bosses. So they are right back at dealing with the bureaucracy of bean counters and empty suits. Why on earth would anyone choose to do things this way?
Its odd that outside the gaming industry crowd funding has been largely successful. I'm curious about why the gaming industry is so incompetent.
Its not all gaming. Ive had a lot of non MMOs I backed that were delivered and did fine. It's MMOs that seem to not be a good match
Yeah, I felt weird when I posted that the entire crowd funded game industry was lacking, but you are correct, it seems to mostly be the crowd funded MMORPGS that are weighing the rest of the industry down. . . . . . unless you add Star Citizen to the count.
People calling for all this government action are missing a simple solution. Really only need consumer protection laws, where 1) kickstarter is required to give refunds for undelivered projects and 2) these businesses cannot collect money from customers without putting the money in trust or through a 3rd party like kickstarter.
Here is the solution: KS just needs to hold all money until the project is delivered as described. Any projects over $100,000 require a 3rd party auditor to verify final completion before releasing funds.
Now before you say, well they need the money to build it upfront. The way for that is they need to overestimate their costs. This way Venture Capitalists will see the accumulated funds in the Kickstarter and want a piece of the action.
If the VC's can get 30% of the money they will happily loan these games the cash. Additionally the VC's will put in place all the requirements to hold these devs accountable and dole out the cash accordingly after meeting required markers to lower their own risk.
Either way the VC's are holding the risk not the customer. The money isn't released unless it passes a final audit on completion and if it doesn't release by deadline all cash is returned to the customer.
If customer knew they were guaranteed money back by failed delivery deadline their would be WAY WAY more money put into these projects.
VC's would hold devs accountable.
Problem Solved.
Games that could get funded from ordinary venture capitalists don't need to go the crowdfunding route.
It would actually be rather difficult to spend $8 million on Starbucks. It's far more plausible that he blew it on one of those extreme, pay-to-win mobile games.
It would actually be rather difficult to spend $8 million on Starbucks. It's far more plausible that he blew it on one of those extreme, pay-to-win mobile games.
So then there is hope that CoE will be made. Once that Mobile Crypto game pans out and his characters explode in value he can sell them and put the money into funding CoE. Genius!
PS: For those not following along at home, that was a joke.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
It would actually be rather difficult to spend $8 million on Starbucks. It's far more plausible that he blew it on one of those extreme, pay-to-win mobile games.
So then there is hope that CoE will be made. Once that Mobile Crypto game pans out and his characters explode in value he can sell them and put the money into funding CoE. Genius!
PS: For those not following along at home, that was a joke.
If $8 million wasn't enough to make some half-baked demo that he could shove out the door and say "here's the game", then it's not a problem of funding. As much of a scam as DreamWorld is, it at least managed to make a half-baked demo that backers could more or less play. CoE somehow didn't even manage to do that.
All the litigants had to do was prove fraud by clear and convincing evidence. They failed which means no fraud was committed. All these pledgers are trying to back out on the contracts they agreed to. smh
It's simple. Don't sign a contract if you aren't willing to stand by it. Have some integrity.
It would actually be rather difficult to spend $8 million on Starbucks. It's far more plausible that he blew it on one of those extreme, pay-to-win mobile games.
So then there is hope that CoE will be made. Once that Mobile Crypto game pans out and his characters explode in value he can sell them and put the money into funding CoE. Genius!
PS: For those not following along at home, that was a joke.
If $8 million wasn't enough to make some half-baked demo that he could shove out the door and say "here's the game", then it's not a problem of funding. As much of a scam as DreamWorld is, it at least managed to make a half-baked demo that backers could more or less play. CoE somehow didn't even manage to do that.
Thats what I told Snipehunter (and he blocked me for it). When Caspien shuttered the studio (before "reopening", Snipehunter went on Twitter and complained how he was heartbroken that they could not have raised more money from the backers and had to close. I said the company asked for $900k for their (minimally viable game) received almost $8M and still could not deliver a minimally viable product. The problem was not the amount of funds that were raised. It was how they wasted time and money. Elyria Mudd, Vox Elyria, Pre-Elyria, Jousting Demos, Silvermine Demo. All utterly wasteful IMHO. All ended up with zero.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Kickstarter has around a 90% success rate, and by that, I mean, 90% of the Successfully Funded Projects were completed.
But, it's still a gamble, and I am not going to hem and haw, about how way back when, I tried to warn people about reading the contracts they signed, and was attacked for it.
But I will say, it really sucks when the horse you bet on , turns out to be dud.
I hope that this does in fact help KS projects in the future and ensures that content creators need to prove themselves before people just start to toss them money.
A huge part of getting rid of predators, is teaching people how not to be prey.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
People calling for all this government action are missing a simple solution. Really only need consumer protection laws, where 1) kickstarter is required to give refunds for undelivered projects and 2) these businesses cannot collect money from customers without putting the money in trust or through a 3rd party like kickstarter.
Here is the solution: KS just needs to hold all money until the project is delivered as described. Any projects over $100,000 require a 3rd party auditor to verify final completion before releasing funds.
Now before you say, well they need the money to build it upfront. The way for that is they need to overestimate their costs. This way Venture Capitalists will see the accumulated funds in the Kickstarter and want a piece of the action.
If the VC's can get 30% of the money they will happily loan these games the cash. Additionally the VC's will put in place all the requirements to hold these devs accountable and dole out the cash accordingly after meeting required markers to lower their own risk.
Either way the VC's are holding the risk not the customer. The money isn't released unless it passes a final audit on completion and if it doesn't release by deadline all cash is returned to the customer.
If customer knew they were guaranteed money back by failed delivery deadline their would be WAY WAY more money put into these projects.
VC's would hold devs accountable.
Problem Solved.
Interesting solution. It might even work. Very largely dependent on how well the VCs could hold developers accountable. Equally, it might end up with corrupt VCs collaborating with corrupt devs to really hurt customers.
I'd rather see the Securities and Exchange Commission get involved (for US companies), as most of these crowdfunded efforts are treating those contributing the funding as investors only without the security provided by other investment instruments. Anything further from the government would probably be out of line.
I don't see how the VC's and Devs could collaborate to defraud customers. Because KS is ultimately legally responsible for refunds for uncompleted projects via law in my solution. So its up to KS to get 3rd party auditors so they can remove the liability before giving out the money.
Now possible VC's and auditor's can team up, but that's no different than any other business. That is what courts are for if they see fraud like that.
Which makes the whole reason to crowd fund a game null and void. The biggest benefit of crowd funding (supposedly anyway) is it gives the project creators the freedom to make something without the interference of the bean counters and empty suits you have to deal with at a normal production company. Honestly its essentially cyber begging. Your way would make Kick Starter and the aforementioned venture capitalists their bosses. So they are right back at dealing with the bureaucracy of bean counters and empty suits. Why on earth would anyone choose to do things this way?
Its odd that outside the gaming industry crowd funding has been largely successful. I'm curious about why the gaming industry is so incompetent.
I agree with you that studios will have to be managed, this is normal in industries, but having a pile of money in Escrow gives the studio devs a bunch of leverage. This is a common thing in many other industries where there are guarantees upon completion.
Comments
Here is the solution: KS just needs to hold all money until the project is delivered as described. Any projects over $100,000 require a 3rd party auditor to verify final completion before releasing funds.
Now before you say, well they need the money to build it upfront. The way for that is they need to overestimate their costs. This way Venture Capitalists will see the accumulated funds in the Kickstarter and want a piece of the action.
If the VC's can get 30% of the money they will happily loan these games the cash. Additionally the VC's will put in place all the requirements to hold these devs accountable and dole out the cash accordingly after meeting required markers to lower their own risk.
Either way the VC's are holding the risk not the customer. The money isn't released unless it passes a final audit on completion and if it doesn't release by deadline all cash is returned to the customer.
If customer knew they were guaranteed money back by failed delivery deadline their would be WAY WAY more money put into these projects.
VC's would hold devs accountable.
Problem Solved.
Xsolla also hired good lawyers who got the case against them pushed to binding arbitration rather than class action.
Meaning every plaintiff has to file their own case against Xsolla.
The lawyer handling the case offered to work with all of them individually, but not really sure how that is working out.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I think that would be too much government intervention. The cost of capital for successful projects would be too high.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
EDIT: Talking more directly to Kickstarter as a platform, supposedly they have closer to 9-10% for failed deliverables, and it's actually pretty even across the categories.
Yes I imagine you are correct. I'm mostly basing my opinion on my personal experience with backing four whole crowd funded properties. The shinning jewel that is the MST3K reboot, Murder by Death's last album, and a couple of other more obscure music projects.
Yeah, I felt weird when I posted that the entire crowd funded game industry was lacking, but you are correct, it seems to mostly be the crowd funded MMORPGS that are weighing the rest of the industry down. . . . . . unless you add Star Citizen to the count.
PS: For those not following along at home, that was a joke.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
It's simple. Don't sign a contract if you aren't willing to stand by it. Have some integrity.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
But, it's still a gamble, and I am not going to hem and haw, about how way back when, I tried to warn people about reading the contracts they signed, and was attacked for it.
But I will say, it really sucks when the horse you bet on , turns out to be dud.
I hope that this does in fact help KS projects in the future and ensures that content creators need to prove themselves before people just start to toss them money.
A huge part of getting rid of predators, is teaching people how not to be prey.
Now possible VC's and auditor's can team up, but that's no different than any other business. That is what courts are for if they see fraud like that.